France is kicking ass and taking names (Mali War Begins)

[Just_Believe18]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet. As some of you who keep up with current events know, Mali's government recently collapsed due to a coupe that resulted in Al-Qaeda basically taking over the northern half of the country. For those of you who are geographically challenged, Mali is located here:



Over the past year, the Islamic terrorists have been gaining in strength by taking over towns and cities in the northern region and imposing strict, Sharia law on the citizens of Mali, while building underground bases and bunkers to fortify their stolen arms and operations.

Recently, the terrorists began to invade southern Mali, threatening to take over the entire country. Due to France's past history and unique relationship with the nation of Mali, France hit the "Oh, shit!" button and has basically invaded Mali in full force. Troops are on the ground and fighter jets are bombing Islamic terrorists in Mali to oblivion. Pundits are already calling this "France's Afghanistan" as more nations, including the U.S. are sending assistance to help France destroy Al-Qaeda from Mali.

The full article can be found here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...d61_story.html

This is a very sudden and shocking development in the international community. It is certainly unusual for France to be so militant over an internal problem in a foreign country. What are your thoughts over this situation? I am glad to see something being done about northern Mali as Al-Qaeda was basically building an Islamic State of their own. Still, the outcome of this conflict is uncertain and unpredictable. I wish France all the success in this campaign.

[Just_Believe18]

For more background information, here is an article that states what lead Mali up to the events of this conflict:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/12/world/...q-a/index.html

[rareboy]

I imagine that the neighbouring states have been pressing for something to be done before Mali turns into another Yemen, or even a base for exporting terror into the other North African countries. Unfortunately...it is Africa...and nor likely to turn out well.

[T-Rexx]

Due to France's past history and unique relationship with the nation of Mali

Just to be clear, that "past history and unique relationship" consisted of France invading the region in 1892 and seizing control of the territory from the locals.

As Wikipedia demurs, "Mali fell under French colonial rule in 1892" as if it was some kind of a natural accident.

White guys always get a pass, when the things they are stealing belong to people with a little pigment in their skins.

[palemale]

This is a very sudden and shocking development in the international community. It is certainly unusual for France to be so militant over an internal problem in a foreign country.

This is not so shocking and surprising. France has quite often intervened militarily in its former colonies in Africa. France has many military installations there and troops. It intervened militarily in the Ivory Coast last year (or the year before, I forget exactly) when the losing candidate for president refused to relinquish power.

[oakpope]

Apart from the colonization, the major faults of the colonial powers, mainly France and UK, is the very poor design of the countries. They traced frontiers without much thoughts about the populations, their different cultures, their ethnicities even their religion.
Many problems stem from that original fault.

Anyway, the situation in Mali is difficult.
There are different groups at work here. In part the Tuareg, an ethnicity that encompasses several regions in different countries in the Sahara.

They are searching since a long date to have their own country, and I'm inclined to think they are not without cause here.
Because of their conflict with those countries, they have fallen in the path of Gadhaffi.
Since his demise, they have taken arms in Mali.
There, they have made alliance with unsavory Islamic fanatics.

With these groups they have had several victories and have weaken the Malian State.
Less than a year ago, a Colonel organized a putch in the capital of Bamako. That has finished to completely weaken the poor army.

The Islamic groups in the North have seized the opportunity to take over all the North and even side stepped their former allied Tuareg.

The UN and the West African countries have decided to intervene to lessen this threat to the security in the region, but they took way to long to prepare, and the rebels have decided to advance to the South before the coalition had time to establish his military staff.

They have been too successful and the Malian President had no other choice than to call France to help them stop the rebels.

That's why France have send troops now, even if the UN resolution foresaw the military aspect far more in the future.

Worth noting that the Islamic rebels have taken several westerners as hostages among them 8 French.

They are ruthless in their application of the 'Sharia' law, forbidding music, destroying ancient mausoleum of great cultural values near Timbuktu.

But the French intervention is not finished at all and Im very afraid that it will be a very difficult task to eradicate these rebels from the region.

My 2 cents as a French which has followed the news with great interest since Friday (thank you sleepless nights )

[Harke the Boeotarch]

White guys always get a pass, when the things they are stealing belong to people with a little pigment in their skins.

Non-whining achievers do tend to get away with quite a lot.

[Rolyo85]

Non-whining achievers do tend to get away with quite a lot.

True, unlike the sad lumps of anti-intelligence that glorify them ^_^

[GiancarloC]

The Malians requested for help and the French were definitely within the framework of international law to provide it. They have used Rafaele fighter/bombers to dislodge the rebels, and so far it appears to have worked... for the most part.

The Tuareg rebels need to come to their senses and realize the Malian government isn't one they should fight against. There needs to be more work on getting them to go against Islamist rebels. The Tuareg rebels are secularist, the Islamists... obviously aren't. In addition the Islamic terrorists really don't have that much support in Mali. They took advantage of a botched coup attempt by the Malian military which left a power vacuum in the north. They never had a right to be there and the horrible destruction they did to Timbuktu should have been avoided. Heritage sites in the area were destroyed by the Islamist groups.

The biggest factor I see in this are the Nigerians. Sure other neighboring countries can stop this, but the Nigerians are the most experienced when dealing with Islamist rebels and securing countries. They also have the most significant power in the region when discussing ground forces. However, they have a bit of brutal reputation, but I expect their forces to show up in Mali soon enough. Nigeria helped secure other countries such as Liberia in the past.

[Jack Springer]

JB18 -- You shouldn't be bringing up news like this. Al Qaeda has been defeated by the current Administration. Bin Laden lays at the bottom of the ocean and his followers hide in fear.

I don't know where you get such nonsense -- The Washington Post must surely be a right wing newspaper out to get the President and they hate him because he's black.

[GiancarloC]

JB18 -- You shouldn't be bringing up news like this. Al Qaeda has been defeated by the current Administration. Bin Laden lays at the bottom of the ocean and his followers hide in fear.

Yet the administration never said that. And this issue with these fighters have been simmering for some time.

I don't know where you get such nonsense -- The Washington Post must surely be a right wing newspaper out to get the President and they hate him because he's black.

And yet nobody say that. Who said anything about Obama in this thread? This isn't a US operation... it's a French/ECOWAS operation. The US may provide logistical support, but France is the one with all the bases in the area (including in Chad).

And as far as Nigeria... it's already happening as we speak:

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/01/n...troop-to-mali/

They will arrive before next week. And I expect things to turn against the Islamic rebels very quickly when that happens.

[CowboyBob]

And yet nobody say that. Who said anything about Obama in this thread? This isn't a US operation... it's a French/ECOWAS operation. The US may provide logistical support, but France is the one with all the bases in the area (including in Chad).

He has to get a jab at the President in whenever he can. Must fill his daily quota.

Maybe he should move.

[GiancarloC]

A bit of an update on the situation... it appears reinforcements will come more quickly than expected after the rebels managed to temporarily take over a small town of Diabaly.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...upporting-role

France has pledged to send 1,000 more troops with armored vehicles immediately to supplement the 500 already there.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...e-in-days.html

600 Nigerian forces, along with 500 soldiers each from Burkina Faso, Ghana, Niger, Senegal and Togo are also expected to arrive within days. It's in the interests of all these relatively stable nations that this situation is resolved immediately. It must be noted that Ghana and Senegal both have professional and well trained armed forces that often take part in peacekeeping missions.

This force would be numbered at 3,100 although that could rise. I hope the Nigerians increase their number as they have extensive experience fighting Islamic rebels.

The ugly part of this situation is if it were to spread to these other countries, it could cause serious economic disruptions in the region. Nigeria is grappling with problems within its territory and would be the most interested in seeing this resolved quickly. We could see these effects if it were to turn towards that direction at the fuel pump considering how much oil the region has.

My suggestion would be actually allowing the rebels to enter further and then encircle them in a trap. These thugs have no reason to be in the country and are subjecting the population who do not support them to such brutality.

[JayHawk]

JB I have been following this. it is obvious the right wing hasnt because we had assets deployed to assist the failed commando raid and we will be deploying more assets to the region. Obama told congress today what he had done so far and what he intends to do. So far no wide eyed conspiracy about us starting wars.

Perhaps the right wing nuts learned their lesson after being shellacked over foreign policy recently -- naaa! It is just happening to quick for them to formulate coordinated foamy mouthed attack but it is coming. We will provide ISR but have no real ordnance involvement in Mali. Obama is just announcing the end of Afghanistan. Now is not the time to start another war in a place much more hopeless than Afghanistan.

[GiancarloC]

Yea this isn't the US's war. It should remain for France and ECOWAS to spearhead it. France is the one with all the heavy assets in Chad... and they have had a base there for decades.

[JayHawk]

I don't think it is our war either. However as another nation takes up the fight against extremist we need to help. Even if it is simply providing superior intelligence gathering and automation while they do the boots on ground work. Just as they supported us. Although with France that was amazingly lukewarm support.

We've been swinging the ax for way too long and Africa is going to fucking explode soon. We are very lucky to have a Democratic President and soon to be a Sec Def that is opposed to arms first questions later. We will see how it goes. I imagine the french will destroy several large caches of terrorist and then back off leaving the area less stable and just as prone to such groups. If we were stressed with a military expedition then France can not do so for long with only 2.3% GDP going to defense. Especially with the abysmal economic numbers in France about to drop further in France and across Europe. Germany was sustaining and now is entering a full on recession.

Consider that around 170 hostages are held in Somalia alone. We have had a maritime policing force in the region for a few years now and that still does not stop the piracy and hostage taking. It is the toughest of situations and I wish the French people the best of luck but I sincerely doubt an effort can or will be sustained.

[GiancarloC]

The US should assist in certain other ways, as well as supporting Mali get back on the right path. Once this extremist situation is resolved, they need to retrain and equip their military as well as set a time table.

As far as France, I think they'll be more involved than at first glance. There are thousands of French citizens and investments in that region, as well as a major French air force base in Chad. In Bakama (Malian capital) there are thousands of French citizens. They are there for the long haul. Their military is more than capable, and while the economic figures are a bit stagnant in France they did pass some reforms. Both France and Germany however are not in a recession definition wise. Growth isn't quite where it should be at.

I have a feeling this will simply be handed over more to ECOWAS, and France will keep its fighter jets in Chad on standby just in case.

https://mninews.marketnews.com/index...-grew-075-2012 - Germany is expecting more robust growth in 2013, as investment sentiment and manufacturing orders are both sharply up. So it appears Europe has turned a page economically. Too bad my country of Spain has not.

[JayHawk]

We wont be training anyone. We may advise but I doubt we will have a significant force to enable actual training.

France definitely has ties or they wouldn't be there at all.

ECOWAS and France supporting from a distance is exactly what i am talking about. That will result in the same amount of change that has occurred to date in the region. None.

Germany posted recession numbers in the last quarter of 2012. The reason there is a question is because until numbers post for first quarter of 2013 we will have no idea if they really are in full blown recession. At least by economic definition.

Agreed the worldwide economy will improve slightly over 2013. That will take Europe with it. What really needs to happen is the US needs to sign a free trade agreement to improve flow from Europe to the United States. We are their biggest trading partner and need to hyper-inflate that situation. But again as we recover so will they.

[GiancarloC]

France will be on standby... they have a major airforce base in Chad and several major investments in the region. They'll always be nearby if needed. ECOWAS will be the one with the most troops on the ground as they have the most at risk... and they may be there for a long time. Something needs to be done about the North. The secularist Tuareg rebels need to be convinced to fight alongside the Malian government, and something has to be done with granting them more autonomy.

Germany only had a small decline, and that is projected to turn around.

And yes, I agree with a free trade agreement with Europe. There are too many obstacles in that partnership.

[GiancarloC]

And there are several stable countries in that area, such as Senegal and Ghana. And Liberia is a bit of a success story for ECOWAS. The region isn't all despair. There are significant natural resources there that some of the countries have used well to their advantage. Though a country like Nigeria has all sorts of problems, it's still a regional power.

[JayHawk]

France will be on standby... they have a major airforce base in Chad and several major investments in the region. They'll always be nearby if needed. ECOWAS will be the one with the most troops on the ground as they have the most at risk... and they may be there for a long time. Something needs to be done about the North. The secularist Tuareg rebels need to be convinced to fight alongside the Malian government, and something has to be done with granting them more autonomy.

Germany only had a small decline, and that is projected to turn around.

And yes, I agree with a free trade agreement with Europe. There are too many obstacles in that partnership.

We have been on 'patrol' and on standby in the Persian Gulf for fifty years allying with our partners in the region. That standoff stuff really works right. (Yeah I dont think so either)

Hard to see the turn around until it happens. I am hopeful but pessimistic. What economic factors have changed that would drive a turn around? What brought them to the decline in the first place?

And there are several stable countries in that area, such as Senegal and Ghana. And Liberia is a bit of a success story for ECOWAS. The region isn't all despair. There are significant natural resources there that some of the countries have used well to their advantage. Though a country like Nigeria has all sorts of problems, it's still a regional power.

Oh there are nations standing up in the midst of the chaos but have no doubt that region will be the epicenter of international chaos and lawlessness for the rest of your lives and if you have children their lives. It does indeed have resources. How well has resource exploitation worked to bolster despotic regimes in the middle east and eventually culminated in two legs terror towards the affluent west and regime change by overthrowing the governments. No the exploitation of Africa will be just as severe, the winner will be just as few and the disenfranchised will be many.

[GiancarloC]

Hard to see the turn around until it happens. I am hopeful but pessimistic. What economic factors have changed that would drive a turn around? What brought them to the decline in the first place?

I'm hopeful they can have a bit of a success story like Liberia, but this is more of a difficult situation than Liberia.

Oh there are nations standing up in the midst of the chaos but have no doubt that region will be the epicenter of international chaos and lawlessness for the rest of your lives and if you have children their lives. It does indeed have resources. How well has resource exploitation worked to bolster despotic regimes in the middle east and eventually culminated in two legs terror towards the affluent west and regime change by overthrowing the governments. No the exploitation of Africa will be just as severe, the winner will be just as few and the disenfranchised will be many.

Well some of the countries like Senegal and Ghana are multiparty democracies. Mali at one point was on that path of democracy and stability until a coup d'etat. Senegal just had a very important election that was highly transparent. There are more countries emerging in that region as democratic than not... and corruption is being dealt with. There may well be instability in the region... but I see more reason to hold out hope. Maybe I'm just too optimistic.

[T-Rexx]

Non-whining achievers do tend to get away with quite a lot.

I would not describe theft and exploitation as "achievements."

[chance1]

JB I have been following this. it is obvious the right wing hasnt because we had assets deployed to assist the failed commando raid and we will be deploying more assets to the region. Obama told congress today what he had done so far and what he intends to do. So far no wide eyed conspiracy about us starting wars.

Perhaps the right wing nuts learned their lesson after being shellacked over foreign policy recently -- naaa! It is just happening to quick for them to formulate coordinated foamy mouthed attack but it is coming. We will provide ISR but have no real ordnance involvement in Mali. Obama is just announcing the end of Afghanistan. Now is not the time to start another war in a place much more hopeless than Afghanistan.

LOL

very Alexander Haig

your "right wing" commentary is curious and frankly OFF

are you responding to anyone/anything in particular ?

or just riffing

go France go

[GiancarloC]

http://news.yahoo.com/mali-french-tr...174753355.html

French special forces units (specifically the Foreign Legion which specializes in desert warfare) have started to fight in Diabaly along with Malian forces to retake the town. France's military chief of staff said French troops are directly engaging rebels. I think this is the beginning of the end for the Islamists in the country.

[GiancarloC]

One nation not mentioned is Chad, and they have extensive experience fighting in deserts... their forces are said to be extremely tenacious and battle hardened... as they have repelled multiple rebel attacks in their own borders. In addition after looking it up in 2005-10, Chad had its own civil war and its military beat no less than 5 rebel groups including ones that had support from Sudan. Many analysts were keeping an eye of what they would contribute...

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Worl...li_836617.html

'We intend to send an infantry regiment and two support battalions, which comes to around 2000 men,' Moussa Faki Mahamat told RFI on Wednesday.

'Our presence has to be significant in order to effectively accomplish our mission,' he added. The troops would work closely with the Malian army and the West African force taking shape there, he added.

Chad alone has said it'll deploy 2,000 troops. It isn't Nigeria that will take the bulk of operations.

[GiancarloC]

http://news.yahoo.com/west-african-t...lQPmgAjDfQtDMD

French and Mali troops have retook Diabaly, and this could set the stage for further intervention into the Northern part of the country. Mali troops were seen in the town mopping up what was left of rebels in the city. This could be a vital morale boost for the fledgling national army. In addition, rebels swiftly left leaving behind weapons and ammunition. There is widespread support among civilians for French and Mali forces, as they were previously subjected to brutality by the Islamists. The people want their country back and that is the least the west can do.

[youfiad]

I'm wondering how the French will differentiate this from American politics.

[GiancarloC]

I'm wondering how the French will differentiate this from American politics.

Easy. The government in that country requested help and the action was supported by neighbors. It also wasn't an illegal or improper action like the war in Iraq.

[Kulindahr]

Islamist leaders who refuse to surrender should be dealt with in long-standing Islamist and African tribal fashion: beheading.

Really, though, the problem is not Islam, it is barbarism. Many cultures, not just in Africa, worship barbaric violence in a way most people in the West can't comprehend, it's so alien to us. Someone who will hold up his enemy's blood-dripping severed head can draw fanatics regardless of religion.

Historically, the best response to barbarism has been a hand of authority that permits no nonsense. Hopefully between France and Nigeria that can be done here.

[oakpope]

More than 2500 French soldiers. Vehicles transported aboard the Mistral class BPC Dixmude.
2 key towns recaptured by Malian/French armies.

This picture, just because

The solider is from the French Foreign Legion.

[GiancarloC]

Time to kick some more ass.... and this was a vital boost for the Malian Army in regaining its morale and coherency. I think the first of the Chadians and other African forces have hit the ground. Chad should have 2,000 troops soon... they have extensive experience fighting in deserts and mountain regions.

More on the Chadians who are soon going to enter into the Islamist held part of Mali... perhaps to catch the retreating rebels. I'm sure what the African forces push onto Gao considering where they are located.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90L0GK20130122

An armored column of Chadian troops, experienced in desert operations, rumbled north from the Niger capital Niamey on the road to Ouallam, some 100 km (60 miles) from Mali's frontier, where Nigerien units are already poised to cross.

Oh and some reassurance for the French:

Colonel Oumar Kande, ECOWAS military and security adviser in Mali, told Reuters in Bamako the original plan for the U.N.-backed ECOWAS military intervention in the north was being changed to adapt to fast-evolving circumstances.

Instead of the Malian army alone playing the combat role, with ECOWAS supporting, now "everyone will fight", Kande said.

The African troops will not play a support role... they will join in combat.

Chad is an expert at mopping up rebel groups if there is a concern about finding them.

[JayHawk]

LOL

very Alexander Haig

your "right wing" commentary is curious and frankly OFF

are you responding to anyone/anything in particular ?

or just riffing

go France go

Got your attention so apparently I was aiming. Still no conspiracy theory out of the tin foil hat crowd... I know that is true because you havent reported it diligently. :P

[Jack Springer]

So this is a good war?

[GiancarloC]

Nobody said this is a good war. But it's one that was pushed on the poor people of Mali. Many who were subjected to beheadings and amputations in Gao and Timbuktu... their military was in disarray after a botched coup... it was necessary to intervene after the Malian government requested it.

[Kulindahr]

Sounds like the allied forces are setting up a hammer and anvil situation. The trick will be keeping the Islamists from squirting out sideways.

Maybe if the Islamists get annihilated, others elsewhere will stop to reconsider.

[Sausy]

This is a war that has to be won...Jack, no time to get contrarian. The thing is, if they get crushed will those jihadists who support this Islamic expansionism aim to get more game changing weaponry? Chemical, biological, nuclear? As fanatical as they are, they will not face the idea of falling down to their opponents in defeat. They will get nasty, and strike out where they will. They just don't want power....they want a radical vision of a way of life, incompatible with any modern concept of human rights and liberties.

[GiancarloC]

They are forcing that extremist form of Islam on a country that's not even extreme. Mali is mainly Sunni and some of which are Sufi and they are not hardline at all. The form that the extremists have forced on them isn't even wanted or liked by the locals.

[Jack Springer]

Nobody said this is a good war. But it's one that was pushed on the poor people of Mali. Many who were subjected to beheadings and amputations in Gao and Timbuktu... their military was in disarray after a botched coup... it was necessary to intervene after the Malian government requested it.

From your posts here -- it sure sounds like you support this war.

What US interests does it protect or promote?

[GiancarloC]

What the fuck does this have to do with US interests? My interest is with those civilians subjected to torture and amputation and the centuries of history that was destroyed in Timbuktu. Why would I care about US interests? I'm tired of this condescending BS.

[T-Rexx]

What US interests does it protect or promote?

What the fuck does this have to do with US interests?

I'm not much of a fan of this war, but it is significant to U.S. interests. This war is an attempt by Al-Qaeda to establish a base of operations in Mali.

Virtually all of the Al-Qaeda attacks on the USA have originated in parts of the world (including Africa) where Al-Qaeda has become successfully entrenched in a region. That enables it to recruit suicide bombers, secure financial backing, and organize attack plans.

It is far more efficient to disrupt Al-Qaeda before it can plan attacks, than to try to deal with the consequences afterward. To that extent, it is in the US interest to stop this invasion of Mali now. We are fortunate to have the French doing the heavy lifting for us here.

[Jack Springer]

^^

We don't belong there. Any war is a bad war -- we need to just negotiate.

[JayHawk]

Sounds like the allied forces are setting up a hammer and anvil situation. The trick will be keeping the Islamists from squirting out sideways.

Maybe if the Islamists get annihilated, others elsewhere will stop to reconsider.

There is not a chance in hell. Unfortunately because of western success these people have ended up on the bottom of the human trash heap. Those with nothing have nothing to lose. Islamism is a vehicle. Nothing more and these kind of folks are going nowhere.


Oh look the tin foil crowd has rushed the stage.... YAY!

[JayHawk]

^^

We don't belong there. Any war is a bad war -- we need to just negotiate.

The ultimate in ignorance is being for the unnecessary Bush wars but against ISR and drone support efforts with our allies. Here is a little secret you may not have known until a black man entered office... We do this all the time..... OMG!!!!!! Why do you think we make 78% of the worlds arms and have a defense budget the size of all our enemies and allies.... combined? Is that because we like the wait and see approach.

It will forever amuse me when folks speak out for this nation and then completely fail to understand WHAT this nation is and what it represents on a global scale.

[Jack Springer]

gotcha .... dem's start wars GOOD, rep's start wars BAD

Jayhawk ... another liberal who can't accept that Obama is black.

[CowboyBob]

gotcha .... dem's start wars GOOD, rep's start wars BAD

Jayhawk ... another liberal who can't accept that Obama is black.

Geeez Springer. Is this the best you can do?

So this is the "15%". Not much.

[JayHawk]

gotcha .... dem's start wars GOOD, rep's start wars BAD

Jayhawk ... another liberal who can't accept that Obama is black.

You forgot the part where I am a warrior and a proponent of our international policy. Very weak response buddy but I get it ... you and your team of fundies are running out of propaganda. Losing over and over and over must really suck but as a Missouri guy you have to be used to losing.... Right?

[Jack Springer]

Geeez Springer. Is this the best you can do?

So this is the "15%". Not much.

So Bob .. you support this new war?

[Jack Springer]

You forgot the part where I am a warrior and a proponent of our international policy. Very weak response buddy but I get it ... you and your team of fundies are running out of propaganda. Losing over and over and over must really suck but as a Missouri guy you have to be used to losing.... Right?

I don't support wars based on the political party who's in power at the time.

[JayHawk]

I don't support wars based on the political party who's in power at the time.

So you are saying that you have never offered support of the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq? Your not saying that only now you have changed your tune now that the magically effective negro is in office?

I obviously cannot go back and quote your past on the forum as it is against the rules. I suppose you can cling to the idea that you evolved.