Ohio School District Responds to Newtown - by Arming Janitors

[T-Rexx]

The Montpelier, Ohio (near Toledo) school board has voted unanimously to arm janitors in the Montpelier schools as a deterrent to gun violence. Says school superintendant Jamie Grimes:

"Sitting back and doing nothing and hoping it doesn't happen to you is just not good policy anymore. There is a need for schools to beef up their security measures. Having guns in the hands of the right people are not a hindrance. They are a means to protect."

Janitors are, in fact, the perfect resource for defending schools against violence. As The Lima News pointed out in an editorial:

Why the custodian? The choice is obvious. First, they do not have a classroom full of children as their first responsibility as teachers do. Secondly, they are free to roam the halls and have the keys necessary should the need arise to enter a locked down room or area. Thirdly, unlike the administrators, they are not needed for quick decisions regarding evacuation, coordination with first responders, etc.

No word on whether the janitors will be packing their own heat, or using weapons provided by the school district.


http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-school-bo...154414006.html

[T-Rexx]

[Stardreamer]

It is happening all over, here in Colorado police are offering free firearms training and a waiving of concealed carry fees for teachers who wish to be able to guns for defending their students. I understand that similar programs are popping up in Ohio, Texas, California and Florida.

[xbuzzerx]

I laughed so fucking hard.

[GiancarloC]

This is just fucking ridiculous. These gun nuts are wanting to protect their freedom yet are perfectly fine in wanting to transform this country into a police state? More guns is not and never will be the answer. This just gets under my skin.

[Stardreamer]

This is just fucking ridiculous. These gun nuts are wanting to protect their freedom yet are perfectly fine in wanting to transform this country into a police state? More guns is not and never will be the answer. This just gets under my skin.

These are teachers and staff who take seriously the desire to protect the children in charge who are volunteering to take this training, they aren't 'gun nuts' are they would already have the training. The issue here in Colorado is the state has a gun free school zone act so the teachers taking the training and obtaining a gun are having to leave the weapon in a locked container in their cars. I heard at least one official commenting on perhaps amending the law to allow teachers to carry. The comment was that in retrospect the act had made schools open to any nut to walk on campus and have his way with no worry of armed protection of the students.

[Corny]

I'm waiting for the first child to be harmed from one of these guns. Seriously, this sounds so fucked up - but sadly it seems that this needs to happen for them to realize how fucked up the idea is. And the sad thing? I don't even believe that anything will change then.

[T-Rexx]

^ When it happens, everyone here will react by saying that the problem with janitors carrying guns in schools is that there aren't enough other people carrying guns in the schools.

That if only the teachers were also armed, then armed janitors would not be a problem.

And then, when a tragedy from an armed teacher results, they will say the older students should be carrying guns.

And the parents. And school employees. Etc., etc., etc.

We have a gun problem in America. And the problem is that we can't get enough guns to solve our gun problem.

[rareboy]

I'm waiting for the first child to be harmed from one of these guns. Seriously, this sounds so fucked up - but sadly it seems that this needs to happen for them to realize how fucked up the idea is. And the sad thing? I don't even believe that anything will change then.

The whole idea is a head shaker.

This is not an America that can be easily understood.

The logical conclusion is to arm the students.

[andysayshi]

The obvious solution to the US gun problem is that very man, woman and child should have a gun. A society is only truly equalised when every person has the same firepower.

There's no guarantee a near-minimum wage janitor won't flip out because he can't afford to pay for his wife's cancer medication, so the teachers and students should be prepared for that. And if they can't cut the psycho janitor down themselves, it's best that the school admin staff have a piece on hand. And the parents, in case it all goes down while they're dropping off the kids. And the lady out front with the stop sign at the street crossing - she should have an M15 and laser sights - she might need some extra range to take down the psycho janitor from outside the school. Or to take down that kid who stole Miss Firstgrade's Glock from her desk during Phys Ed.

Damn those violent video games for causing all this!!



(Apologies for the heterosexual nuts in this image.)

[GiancarloC]

These are teachers and staff who take seriously the desire to protect the children in charge who are volunteering to take this training, they aren't 'gun nuts' are they would already have the training. The issue here in Colorado is the state has a gun free school zone act so the teachers taking the training and obtaining a gun are having to leave the weapon in a locked container in their cars. I heard at least one official commenting on perhaps amending the law to allow teachers to carry. The comment was that in retrospect the act had made schools open to any nut to walk on campus and have his way with no worry of armed protection of the students.

It's not encouraging anything good. More guns aren't the solution. This will create nothing but a police state... rather ironic coming from the 2nd amendment crowd. Here is an idea... stepped up police patrols. We don't need armed guards everywhere.

[xbuzzerx]

Other people have said much the same thing--- if they go with this idea the first lost, misplaced, or stolen gun from a faculty member which is used to go on a rampage will make people realize this idea is beyond moronic.

[Just_Believe18]

These are teachers and staff who take seriously the desire to protect the children in charge who are volunteering to take this training, they aren't 'gun nuts' are they would already have the training. The issue here in Colorado is the state has a gun free school zone act so the teachers taking the training and obtaining a gun are having to leave the weapon in a locked container in their cars. I heard at least one official commenting on perhaps amending the law to allow teachers to carry. The comment was that in retrospect the act had made schools open to any nut to walk on campus and have his way with no worry of armed protection of the students.

Teachers and staff who take seriously the safety of their children do so in other ways that does not include carrying a gun. An almost unanimous majority of educators do not want the expectation of their job to mean they have to carry a gun in the classroom at all times.

Seriously, this topic is beyond stupid as a solution to gun violence in schools.

[White Eagle]

The obvious solution to the US gun problem is that very man, woman and child should have a gun. A society is only truly equalised when every person has the same firepower.

There's no guarantee a near-minimum wage janitor won't flip out because he can't afford to pay for his wife's cancer medication, so the teachers and students should be prepared for that. And if they can't cut the psycho janitor down themselves, it's best that the school admin staff have a piece on hand. And the parents, in case it all goes down while they're dropping off the kids. And the lady out front with the stop sign at the street crossing - she should have an M15 and laser sights - she might need some extra range to take down the psycho janitor from outside the school. Or to take down that kid who stole Miss Firstgrade's Glock from her desk during Phys Ed.

Damn those violent video games for causing all this!!



(Apologies for the heterosexual nuts in this image.)

We're on the same wavelength. I'm thinking do these janitors get a background check? One for firearms abuse not child abuse.

[White Eagle]

I joined a photography forum the other day and found this today!

A must have in every home in America !

For everyone who would rather not have a gun in the house!

Washington thinks they are going to take away our guns, so check this out. I like it!

NAIL GUNS! AND, you don't even have to REGISTER them or have LICENSES for them!

AND, you don't have to worry about them being CONCEALED!

Just a LOT of good stuff to do with THIS!

Once in awhile something so totally cool comes out that even a guy who doesn't normally even know what he'd like for

Father's Day or Christmas would immediately ask for it:

Thank you, DeWalt!!!

New Nail Gun, made by DeWalt

It can drive a 16-D nail through a 2x4 at 200 yards.

This makes construction a breeze, you can sit in your lawn chair and build a fence.

Hundred round magazine.

Someone invades your home, just nail his ass....

[rareboy]

I mean...who the hell would wanted the janitor of their school carrying a weapon on them?

[Stardreamer]

It's not encouraging anything good. More guns aren't the solution. This will create nothing but a police state... rather ironic coming from the 2nd amendment crowd. Here is an idea... stepped up police patrols. We don't need armed guards everywhere.

That is being done too, I heard at least one California school district is expanding police coverage to every school, most districts do not have enough policemen to permanently station an officer in every school but they are making sure that an officer visits each school every day.

[Stardreamer]

Teachers and staff who take seriously the safety of their children do so in other ways that does not include carrying a gun. An almost unanimous majority of educators do not want the expectation of their job to mean they have to carry a gun in the classroom at all times.

Seriously, this topic is beyond stupid as a solution to gun violence in schools.

Noone is being forced to carry a gun. The programs only accept willing volunteers and I imagine are doing some extra screening those as well. Part of the program is teaching gun safety and when to use and NOT use a gun. IIRC concealed carry permit holders have a lower crime rate than the general population because the programs screen and don't approve people who tend to not take the issue seriously.

It interesting to note that subtle implication going on here that minimum wage janitors are somehow less stable than most people, shame. Most spree killers to my understanding are actually fairly well off economically.

[Stardreamer]

I mean...who the hell would wanted the janitor of their school carrying a weapon on them?

Most of the janitors I knew when I went to school were decent law abiding people who cared for their jobs and got along very well with the students. Are you implying that custodians are somehow untrustworthy?

[Stardreamer]

I joined a photography forum the other day and found this today!

A must have in every home in America !

For everyone who would rather not have a gun in the house!

Washington thinks they are going to take away our guns, so check this out. I like it!

NAIL GUNS! AND, you don't even have to REGISTER them or have LICENSES for them!

AND, you don't have to worry about them being CONCEALED!

Just a LOT of good stuff to do with THIS!

Once in awhile something so totally cool comes out that even a guy who doesn't normally even know what he'd like for

Father's Day or Christmas would immediately ask for it:

Thank you, DeWalt!!!

New Nail Gun, made by DeWalt

It can drive a 16-D nail through a 2x4 at 200 yards.

This makes construction a breeze, you can sit in your lawn chair and build a fence.

Hundred round magazine.

Someone invades your home, just nail his ass....

Not to mention the average custodian has access to enough chemicals and materials to blow the school building sky high.

[Spiff]

Sure, make the poor guys do more of society's dirty work on their low wages. It's the American way.

[mitchymo]

Noone is being forced to carry a gun. The programs only accept willing volunteers

And how long will it be before the blame game kicks in. Some school shooting occurs where staff didn't want to carry weapons, and it'll be then as much their fault as the attackers. "If only you had a gun, you could have stopped this", people will say.

The answer to gun problems is NEVER more guns. Thats adding to the problem. The problem is very much about not being able to read people. So yea, give the janitor a gun, he seems like a nice chap, then tick tick tick, only a matter of time before a janitor somewhere with a hinge loose...
It looks like the problem solving, is just opening up the path for another problem in the future.

The ONLY way to cut down gun abuse, is to restrict gun USE.

[mightbe]

Jesus wept.

More guns are a hazard. One teacher leaves it in an unlocked drawer, a purse, etc. and someday that one kid who couldn't get a gun grabs it while the teacher's not looking... I don't see how more guns can't be considered a liability.

[Rolyo85]

Even if teachers/staff do this for noble reason, it's still misguided to the extreme, and wrong wrong wrong. Militarizing civilian society is a death sentence.

[xbuzzerx]

And how long will it be before the blame game kicks in. Some school shooting occurs where staff didn't want to carry weapons, and it'll be then as much their fault as the attackers. "If only you had a gun, you could have stopped this", people will say.

The answer to gun problems is NEVER more guns. Thats adding to the problem. The problem is very much about not being able to read people. So yea, give the janitor a gun, he seems like a nice chap, then tick tick tick, only a matter of time before a janitor somewhere with a hinge loose...
It looks like the problem solving, is just opening up the path for another problem in the future.

The ONLY way to cut down gun abuse, is to restrict gun USE.

This is absolutely correct.

If we don't have any system in place in our society that can identify and intervene on people off their rocker enough to go on a rampage... then we equally do not have the capacity to be confident in handing out guns to students, janitors and school employees on the blind assumption that they won't snap one day.

It's a dumb idea. It makes no sense given that this problem arises from "we aren't doing a good job of finding who's going to snap before they do."

[White Eagle]

The stress factor alone could make them snap.

[Stardreamer]

And how long will it be before the blame game kicks in. Some school shooting occurs where staff didn't want to carry weapons, and it'll be then as much their fault as the attackers. "If only you had a gun, you could have stopped this", people will say.

The answer to gun problems is NEVER more guns. Thats adding to the problem. The problem is very much about not being able to read people. So yea, give the janitor a gun, he seems like a nice chap, then tick tick tick, only a matter of time before a janitor somewhere with a hinge loose...
It looks like the problem solving, is just opening up the path for another problem in the future.

The ONLY way to cut down gun abuse, is to restrict gun USE.

YOu seem to have missed the word 'volunteer' noone is being forced to carry guns where they or the staff do not want them.

[Rolyo85]

You seem to have missed his first sentence where he is talking about the blame game. Kulindahr ALREADY employed it a week or two back, when he was making the claim that if a teacher doesn't arm herself, she doesn't care about the safety of the kids in her care.

[Stardreamer]

Now comes the what ifs based on condescending views of our educators and school staff. Good enough to take care of your kids but don't you dare trust them.

[Rolyo85]

Now comes the what ifs based on condescending views of our educators and school staff. Good enough to take care of your kids but don't you dare trust them.

I don't know what this is a response to, but it's not addressing anything I have said.

[Stardreamer]

You seem to have missed his first sentence where he is talking about the blame game. Kulindahr ALREADY employed it a week or two back, when he was making the claim that if a teacher doesn't arm herself, she doesn't care about the safety of the kids in her care.

I was correcting a point in the second sentence where he says staff is being forced to take guns they don't want.

[mitchymo]

Now comes the what ifs based on condescending views of our educators and school staff. Good enough to take care of your kids but don't you dare trust them.

I'd hardly call it condescending views. Its far more cautionary. You can trust teachers etc, but it doesn't change the fact that you don't tend to know them. All giving guns to teachers is doing, is providing a sticky plaster to a problem which cannot be fixed without restricting the weapons that make the problems of gun abuse what they are. All it takes is one teacher or janitor or whatever to snap and spree to show that you haven't addressed a problem, you've just given way to a new threat. Would you call for teachers to have guns banned if such a thing were to happen, or insist that kids be allowed to carry them. The sticking plaster approach to the gun problem says the later. Not a good idea.

[mitchymo]

I was correcting a point in the second sentence where he says staff is being forced to take guns they don't want.

I said no such thing. RE-READ.

[Stardreamer]

I don't know what this is a response to, but it's not addressing anything I have said.

That would be the accusations that teachers are irresponsible idiots who would carelessly leaving guns lying about like candy, janitors are raving lunatics just waiting for a reason to snap (might as well drag out the old stereotype of the dirty old man in the boiler room peeping into the girls locker room, you'll find it right next to the all gay teachers are pedophiles in the stereotype file drawer), that armed teachers are going to turn into nazi stormtroopers, etc.

The stress factor alone could make them snap.

If we don't have any system in place in our society that can identify and intervene on people off their rocker enough to go on a rampage... then we equally do not have the capacity to be confident in handing out guns to students, janitors and school employees on the blind assumption that they won't snap one day.

One teacher leaves it in an unlocked drawer, a purse, etc. and someday that one kid who couldn't get a gun grabs it while the teacher's not looking.

So yea, give the janitor a gun, he seems like a nice chap, then tick tick tick, only a matter of time before a janitor somewhere with a hinge loose...

who the hell would wanted the janitor of their school carrying a weapon on them?

I'm thinking do these janitors get a background check? One for firearms abuse not child abuse.

This will create nothing but a police state..

School districts deal with issues of responsibility, liability and due diligence in the care and protecting of students routinely. It is reasonable to assume that if the district allows this they will put policies and procedures in place to address all these concerns. And if the district does not feel they can adequately address it then they will not agree to the policy.

[Stardreamer]

I said no such thing. RE-READ.

Quote: Some school shooting occurs where staff didn't want to carry weapons,

Re-read it, still says the same thing.

[Stardreamer]

I'd hardly call it condescending views. Its far more cautionary. You can trust teachers etc, but it doesn't change the fact that you don't tend to know them. All giving guns to teachers is doing, is providing a sticky plaster to a problem which cannot be fixed without restricting the weapons that make the problems of gun abuse what they are. All it takes is one teacher or janitor or whatever to snap and spree to show that you haven't addressed a problem, you've just given way to a new threat. Would you call for teachers to have guns banned if such a thing were to happen, or insist that kids be allowed to carry them. The sticking plaster approach to the gun problem says the later. Not a good idea.

You know its only a matter of time before one of those policemen on the street corners snaps, we really shouldn't trust them with guns.

No I wouldn't call for a ban under that circumstance, I might suggest the district and state review its policy and evaluation process for granting permission to carry on campus.

[mitchymo]

Re-read it, still says the same thing.

You have read this out of context. It does not imply that teachers were forced to. It implies that they opted not to.

- - - Updated - - -

You know its only a matter of time before one of those policemen on the street corners snaps, we really shouldn't trust them with guns.

Quite. In the UK, we don't.

[Rolyo85]

I never even implied such a thing about teachers. What they ARE though, is not trained professionally to use and care for guns in a school environment. Nor should they be.

And how ridiculous is to compare that to cops, who are professionally trained?

[Telstra]

what if a small % of Janitors are psychos ? Massacres in a larger scale ?

[Stardreamer]

My mother throughout her long and commendable career has served in every level of the education system from substitute teacher to district superintendent. She now works in a special role for the state education department as an adviser they send out to help districts that are having troubles resolve them. So I've seen how districts deal with issues of liability and due diligence.

The vast majority of our educators are professionals who care a great deal for their job and children they are charged to care for. I have little doubt that if a district decides that allow selected staff members to be armed as a precaution against a violent attack against the school that between the district administration, the school principle, the state legal authorities and the staff members themselves that adequate procedures and safeguards will be implemented.

NO one is going to force a district to accept guns on campus if they don't want them there. Any staff who do take up such a project would be adequately supervised and trained given the paranoia most districts bring to due diligence.

There is no magic bullet solution to this problem, this is just one possible approach of many to mediate it and it should be up to the district and state to determine if it is one they wish to use.

[Stardreamer]

what if a small % of Janitors are psychos ? Massacres in a larger scale ?

Then whether they have guns are not are the least of your problems.

[bike10]

Just one simple way to deal with complex problem, the answer more guns. Who do we arm next crossing guards?

[tigerfan482]

So I will say as someone who owns a firearm, has a CCW permit (out-of-state no less) and has taken both civilian and tactical firearms training, that I do not trust one bit the training that the vast majority of gun owners and CCW holders receive. To purchase my gun, I simply had to fill out some paperwork, pay the money, and wait the 7 days. To get my out-of-state CCW permit, all I had to do was fill out a form, take a 3 hour class which spent about 30 minutes talking about gun safety and the rest endorsing the NRA and talking about 2nd amendment rights, and pay the $40 licensing fee. Not once in any of that process did I have to demonstrate that I was proficient at using a firearm and that I knew how to safely store and use it. Hell, I didn't even have to touch a gun. There was also no written test and the department that issued my CCW never once met me, talked to me, or checked anything but my criminal background. Anyone who is able to avoid getting charged with the list of crimes that disqualifies you from purchasing a gun is able to get both the gun and the CCW permit easily.

Another point to consider is that no matter how many classes you take or how many hours you spend on the range, firing at a stationary paper target is not the same as firing at someone who is shooting back at you. There are numerous physical responses that occur in high stress situations that greatly inhibit your ability to drive, operate a firearm, or even think straight and the vast majority of people never go through training that expose them to those types of situations. The odds are much higher that a janitor, teacher, or other school administrator will wind up shooting someone without a gun than shooting the person with the gun. Even trained police officers have been known to hit innocent civilians when firing their weapon.

The biggest problem in this country is that guns are just far too easy to get and there are way too many of them. People like to use the whole "well criminals can always get guns" but that is only because there is an easy supply chain there with people turning easily obtainable, legally purchase guns into black market firearms. I will bet money that if you start greatly decreasing the number of legal firearms manufactured and in legal circulation then you will see a huge hit to the number of criminals who have illegal firearms.

[Stardreamer]

There is quite a bit of truth to that, noone knows what in the end how they will react if the situation finally arises. I think most of these staff volunteers are the ones who are putting themselves in the place of the teachers that had their students frightened behind them as the sounds of a killer moves down the hall toward them. They want to be able to do more to protect their students if that situation arises than just to be a speed bump to absorb a couple bullets. They also have a realistic idea of how likely and how long disarming the US would take.

The district of course has an enormous due diligence and liability issue with this as well, those hurdles have to be addressed which should include evaluating the training and procedures they district itself would impose. I suspect in most cases the district will simply not allow it after the initial evaluations of the risks.

[Stardreamer]

Just one simple way to deal with complex problem, the answer more guns. Who do we arm next crossing guards?

Area denial and defensive fortifications, claymore mines, moats with sharks wearing lasers on their heads.

[andysayshi]

So I will say as someone who owns a firearm, has a CCW permit (out-of-state no less) and has taken both civilian and tactical firearms training, that I do not trust one bit the training that the vast majority of gun owners and CCW holders receive. To purchase my gun, I simply had to fill out some paperwork, pay the money, and wait the 7 days. To get my out-of-state CCW permit, all I had to do was fill out a form, take a 3 hour class which spent about 30 minutes talking about gun safety and the rest endorsing the NRA and talking about 2nd amendment rights, and pay the $40 licensing fee. Not once in any of that process did I have to demonstrate that I was proficient at using a firearm and that I knew how to safely store and use it. Hell, I didn't even have to touch a gun. There was also no written test and the department that issued my CCW never once met me, talked to me, or checked anything but my criminal background. Anyone who is able to avoid getting charged with the list of crimes that disqualifies you from purchasing a gun is able to get both the gun and the CCW permit easily.

Another point to consider is that no matter how many classes you take or how many hours you spend on the range, firing at a stationary paper target is not the same as firing at someone who is shooting back at you. There are numerous physical responses that occur in high stress situations that greatly inhibit your ability to drive, operate a firearm, or even think straight and the vast majority of people never go through training that expose them to those types of situations. The odds are much higher that a janitor, teacher, or other school administrator will wind up shooting someone without a gun than shooting the person with the gun. Even trained police officers have been known to hit innocent civilians when firing their weapon.

The biggest problem in this country is that guns are just far too easy to get and there are way too many of them. People like to use the whole "well criminals can always get guns" but that is only because there is an easy supply chain there with people turning easily obtainable, legally purchase guns into black market firearms. I will bet money that if you start greatly decreasing the number of legal firearms manufactured and in legal circulation then you will see a huge hit to the number of criminals who have illegal firearms.

It's great to hear a balanced, honest and responsible post from a gun owner. Thanks for this.

[mitchymo]

The vast majority of our educators are professionals who care a great deal for their job and children they are charged to care for. I have little doubt that if a district decides that allow selected staff members to be armed as a precaution against a violent attack against the school that between the district administration, the school principle, the state legal authorities and the staff members themselves that adequate procedures and safeguards will be implemented.

This is not under any doubt.

There is no magic bullet solution to this problem, this is just one possible approach of many to mediate it and it should be up to the district and state to determine if it is one they wish to use.

Sadly, this is the problem. It is just a sticking plaster approach to the problem. One that opens up for a potential new problem. Placing guns in school is one step closer to allowing a potential school shooting incident, than having a gun taken in. A gun/s already there is just a nutty solution. The magic bullet is to cut guns in society. The fact that some people don't like that idea is what is preventing the most efficient resolve to the issue from being allowed to take place.

[xbuzzerx]

what if a small % of Janitors are psychos ? Massacres in a larger scale ?

Well this is obviously where you should have also armed people who jog by schools, people who live near schools, and even the students themselves as a counterbalance to the armed janitors.

In seriousness, your question is totally valid. These incidents are occurring because of a mental health problem coupled with a far, far too widely and easily available high firepower gun problem in this country, and the two are frequently mixing to a very uncomfortable degree. Not because we didn't arm enough volunteers, auxiliaries and support staff who work in schools, theaters, hospitals and whatever else.

[andysayshi]

It interesting to note that subtle implication going on here that minimum wage janitors are somehow less stable than most people, shame. Most spree killers to my understanding are actually fairly well off economically.

i don't think the implication is about stability. It is about what level of responsibility, commitment or professional competency is it valid to expect from someone earning eight bucks an hour.

[Stardreamer]

This is not under any doubt.



Sadly, this is the problem. It is just a sticking plaster approach to the problem. One that opens up for a potential new problem. Placing guns in school is one step closer to allowing a potential school shooting incident, than having a gun taken in. A gun/s already there is just a nutty solution. The magic bullet is to cut guns in society. The fact that some people don't like that idea is what is preventing the most efficient resolve to the issue from being allowed to take place.

Well that and that pesky bill of rights thing.