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    The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    To the casual "Cable News" viewer William (Bill) Kristol is a 'charming' talking head.

    The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    "His backers can cite no significant legislation for which Hagel was responsible in his two terms in the Senate. They can quote no memorable speeches that Hagel delivered and can cite no profound passages from the book he authored. They can summarize no perceptive Hagelian analysis of defense or foreign policy, and can appeal to no acts of management or leadership by the man they'd have as our next secretary of defense.”
    It was a striking critique—as notable for what it left out as it was for the personal attack on Hagel.
    So let's talk about Bill Kristol!

    Here's one of my "Bush 43 Era" personal favorites:

    Project for the New American Century: (Check the links bitches, there Will be a final exam!)





    A Democratic President nominating a former Republican Senator WHO'S ACTUALLY SERVED IN WAR?

    OH! WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!

    Rational thought, and thinking?

    It goes against the Military Industrial Complex Ideology.

    Some think that Alex Jones:



    Is a nut job because he yelled at Piers Morgan on CNN, but William Kristol smiled and shook Jon Stewart's hands



    ....while pretending to "support the troops"...at least when it comes to "health care" is okay.


    And, as Americans we're basing our opinions on WHAT, and the opinions of WHO exactly?





    And for those of you NOT KEEPING UP, William (Bill) Kristol has more of a voice than you, or our "elected representatives" here.

    So you have two options:

    1. Pull your head out of your ass and start thinking.
    2. Or parrot the talking points, and argue over what you're taught to think, or told what to think, or whatever you think might bait other posters.


    Last edited by CTF; January 9th, 2013 at 05:27 PM.
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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    It is quite astonishing to see republicans make straw man arguments about a guy who is more like them than the President they oppose at every turn. I also found it remarkable that republicans are attempting to frame him as Anti-Jewish while none of them are Jewish and the folks who are Jewish in the Senate (Seven Democrats) will most likely vote for having Hagel at Defense.

    Truly a mind fuck.

    While we are openly flaming about what we dislike let me just go ahead with a GIANT who gives a fuck that Obama chose people to serve and this time around none of them have vaginas or dark skin. Because a position was diverse once does it require a diverse voice every time there after???? WTF.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    ^ THANK YOU!

    I was counting on a "sound voice" of reason, without all of the "rhetoric" and "talking points."



    Quote Originally Posted by Lindsey Graham
    Chuck Hagel is out of the mainstream...
    Duh!

    Hey Lindsey! Have you checked your own GOP Party Platform lately?

    How "mainstream" is that??

    Oh, but you're use to talking to Fox News, and MSNBC, and tossing off a few to Wolf Blitzer because you know that they'll never investigate anyr of you bullshit.

    Which is why a Neo Con talking head like William Kristol has more credibility than a Senator from South Carolina.

    Lindsey, you're just supposed to read the cards, and look presentable, while trying to appear credible.

    That's Cable New's job!



    Last edited by CTF; January 9th, 2013 at 06:14 PM.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Hi Centex, I graduated from high school, but despite reading it several times, I am not sure what this post is about.

    Is it about Bill Kristol (who is actually not a true Neoconservative...his father was; Bill is just, for the most part, an articulate spokesman for the Right)?

    Is it about Rethuglicans, (those disgusting losers that Leftists such as Howard Dean and the like loudly proclaim want children killed by guns, grandma pushed off the cliff, and American boys killed just so some fat-cat white men can get money from oil)?

    Is it about an emotional man, who apparently skipped his acting lessons, who is annoyed by a non-American, anti-American proclaiming what America should be about?

    Or is it about Chuck Hagel, who has disdain for Israel, disdain for homosexuality, who opposed and voted against the surge, which left Iraq a much more stable place for Dear Leader to throw off the cliff (oops...sorry, but that rhetoric is easy to fall into)?

    What is your point exactly?

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    Hi Centex, I graduated from high school, but despite reading it several times, I am not sure what this post is about.

    Is it about Bill Kristol (who is actually not a true Neoconservative...his father was; Bill is just, for the most part, an articulate spokesman for the Right)?

    Is it about Rethuglicans, (those disgusting losers that Leftists such as Howard Dean and the like loudly proclaim want children killed by guns, grandma pushed off the cliff, and American boys killed just so some fat-cat white men can get money from oil)?

    Is it about an emotional man, who apparently skipped his acting lessons, who is annoyed by a non-American, anti-American proclaiming what America should be about?
    Hi kev!

    I seem to see so little of you these past few years.

    I knew that there would be be some who wouldn't know where I'm coming from here, and thank you so much for allowing me an attempt to clarify:

    Or is it about Chuck Hagel, who has disdain for Israel, disdain for homosexuality, who opposed and voted against the surge, which left Iraq a much more stable place for Dear Leader to throw off the cliff (oops...sorry, but that rhetoric is easy to fall into)?

    What is your point exactly?
    I felt like I completely understood you; up until the "Dear Leader" part.

    Who is the "Dear Leader?"

    Is that code for something?


    (Does it fit into one of those puzzles that has Kenya, Muslim, Birth Certificate, Long Form/Short Form, Socialists as the pieces amongst others?)



    But yeah, the talking points that you illustrated are exactly what I'm talking about.

    And I refer back to my original source when I created this thread.

    So my question to you is; "And.....?"

    ...in regard to your response here...

    It was a striking critiqueas notable for what it left out as it was for the personal attack on Hagel.
    Ergo, the continued personal attacks against President Obama.
    Last edited by CTF; January 9th, 2013 at 08:03 PM.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    There idea of the future is war each year.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    I love how the idea of Hagel as SoD is fucking with the Neocon's brains.

    Is it only his stance on Israel that has them so worried? Is it because his stance on Iran isn't hawkish enough?

    Or is it just Knee-jerk resistance to anything that Obama proposes?

  8. #8

    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    I am not sure there is such a thing as a NeoCon anymore. BUT most Republicans object to Hagel's pretence to being a Republican when his policies and allegiance is with the Democrats. That is why he did not run for reelection to the Senate. He is really a Democrat who realized that he had a better chance to be elected to the Senate from Nebraska as a Republican.
    Now Obama wants to parade him as an example of his own bi-partisanship. Hagel's mistakes will be blamed on the Republicans.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    So publicly disavowing Hagel as a Democrat is going to be the spin strategy for the Republicans, is it?

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I love how the idea of Hagel as SoD is fucking with the Neocon's brains.

    Is it only his stance on Israel that has them so worried? Is it because his stance on Iran isn't hawkish enough?

    Or is it just Knee-jerk resistance to anything that Obama proposes?
    75% of all objection is knee jerk Anti-Obama-ism. The gangrene leopard of the republican party cant change its spots or chancres over night so they are left with the same system of how to respond that McConnell, Rove and Limbaugh paid out for them as a marching plan.

    Israel is a red herring they they try to whip out every time because it has gained traction in the past. It failed to characterize Obama and it will fail to characterize Hagel.

    Maybe the only credible constituency that has beef are the Neo-cons and Hawks. Hagel has long spoken out against military adventurism and that is exactly what that industry feeds off of to live. The cuts to defense are going to hurt and they are going to devastate some programs. There is no doubt. However the cuts are inevitable. SO I would rather have folks like Hagel and Shinsecki in those positions at defense and VA when these cuts are made so they are not made at the expense of those veterans who gave so much and need the support of their nation now.

    So my verdict is much ado about nothing...
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I love how the idea of Hagel as SoD is fucking with the Neocon's brains.
    Let's see... Neocon's brains.

    Yesterday, I said I was okay with Mr. Hagel. Today, I am absolutely, positively in favor of his nomination...

    The Frothy One is opposing Hagel's nomination because of his stance on Israel. Will someone refresh my memory: does anyone recall any stance on Israel by Frothy, other than possibly in the context of abortion.


    ...with history the final judge of our deeds. - JFK

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    So publicly disavowing Hagel as a Democrat is going to be the spin strategy for the Republicans, is it?
    i seem to recall u not supporting his candidacy

    talking out of both sides of your mouth can be dangerous

    oh yeah that's right you do it all the time

    cheers

    as for kristol/stewart - i agree with kristol

    not a great moment for stewart - he's on everyday so he's entitled to douche-iness

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    Hi Centex, I graduated from high school, but despite reading it several times, I am not sure what this post is about.

    Is it about Bill Kristol (who is actually not a true Neoconservative...his father was; Bill is just, for the most part, an articulate spokesman for the Right)?

    Is it about Rethuglicans, (those disgusting losers that Leftists such as Howard Dean and the like loudly proclaim want children killed by guns, grandma pushed off the cliff, and American boys killed just so some fat-cat white men can get money from oil)?

    Is it about an emotional man, who apparently skipped his acting lessons, who is annoyed by a non-American, anti-American proclaiming what America should be about?

    Or is it about Chuck Hagel, who has disdain for Israel, disdain for homosexuality, who opposed and voted against the surge, which left Iraq a much more stable place for Dear Leader to throw off the cliff (oops...sorry, but that rhetoric is easy to fall into)?

    What is your point exactly?
    Kev - centex has a habit of posting threads that are unusual in their substance

    where it is usually unclear just what the fuck he's talking about

    not sure if it's on purpose or it's just how he is

    my gut is the latter

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Kev - centex has a habit of posting threads that are unusual in their substance

    where it is usually unclear just what the fuck he's talking about

    not sure if it's on purpose or it's just how he is

    my gut is the latter
    Maybe it's that Texas anthem:

    "Home, home on de-range."
    Last edited by palbert; January 10th, 2013 at 08:28 AM.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i seem to recall u not supporting his candidacy

    talking out of both sides of your mouth can be dangerous

    oh yeah that's right you do it all the time
    We'll take this comment within the proper context that you are someone who incessantly talks about Obama's lack of accountability while supporting the Republicans.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Wow ... no substance but I see the DB and Gucci purses are swinging left and right - - You go girls.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i seem to recall u not supporting his candidacy

    talking out of both sides of your mouth can be dangerous

    oh yeah that's right you do it all the time

    cheers

    as for kristol/stewart - i agree with kristol

    not a great moment for stewart - he's on everyday so he's entitled to douche-iness
    Well a few days ago I wrote that after a week or so of listening to all the back and forth and weighing all the evidence...I had come to the grudging conclusion that he would probably be the best choice at this time...if only because no one seems to like like his nomination.

    So nope...not talking out of both sides of the mouth. At all.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Hiya Centex...it is good to see you, too! Thanks for the clarification.

    I haven't followed this cabinet thing too closely, seeing as how I am working my butt off to pay all the extra taxes that I now have to pay (even though I am middle class...who knew?), and since I am not a federal worker, I don't have a lot of time on my hands.

    But I think is that Hagel is the wrong pick for Secretary of Defense because of how he views the people in the DOD, how he has not supported them. Plus, he views our ally Israel with disdain. And I wish the JUB CE&P posters would go look up the term "neoconservative", and realize that these are former Leftists and not just people who advocated for the Iraq war.

    Moreover, now that it is okay to be gay in the military, Hagel is the not the first person I would pick.

    Yes, my Dear Leader comment refers to the Dear Leader, and I call him this because he is a Marxist/Socialist radical who believes in wealth redistribution. I believe he was born in this country, so the things you list don't apply to me (calling someone a socialist is not the same as being a birther...nice try though), but he is definitely un-American.


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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Everyone in this country believes in wealth redistribution. It's just that conservatives believe in redistributing it to the top.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Hi Kev,
    Care to provide any sources for your stated positions you assume for Hagel?

    They seem obviously based in ignorance because he has made no such things apparent by the way he has run his life or his votes on legislation.

    Like how does he view the DoD?? I have read a lot of his words but obviously I missed the glaring hate for his fellow soldiers. In fact he seems to genuinely care how our service members are treated since he received not so fantastic care while earning two purple hearts. But hey i am sure your experience in the DOD defending our country was much more fruitful so just your word will do... wait did you serve? If not I am afraid you might wanna provide some cites otherwise what you say is empty and baseless.

    He doesn't view Israel with disdain. He just doesn't think we should ONLY be allies with Israel. He is right. We cannot continue to occupy the middle east and we certainly must allow for the sovereign countries in the region to attempt to manage their own affairs. But hey just like above if you have some proof please cite it.

    Yeah you may have been really confused at Centex's post because of reading comprehension but it still contained links that explained in full if you look at them... not simply empty opinions that have no basis.

    I will be glad to entertain and destroy any of your linked material. SO post up....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Kev - centex has a habit of posting threads that are unusual in their substance

    where it is usually unclear just what the fuck he's talking about

    not sure if it's on purpose or it's just how he is

    my gut is the latter

    Why ya gotta be hatin' YO?




    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Maybe it's that Texas anthem:

    "Home, home on de-range."
    Now THAT'S funny!

    Seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    Hiya Centex...it is good to see you, too! Thanks for the clarification.

    I haven't followed this cabinet thing too closely, seeing as how I am working my butt off to pay all the extra taxes that I now have to pay (even though I am middle class...who knew?), and since I am not a federal worker, I don't have a lot of time on my hands.

    But I think is that Hagel is the wrong pick for Secretary of Defense because of how he views the people in the DOD, how he has not supported them. Plus, he views our ally Israel with disdain. And I wish the JUB CE&P posters would go look up the term "neoconservative", and realize that these are former Leftists and not just people who advocated for the Iraq war.

    Moreover, now that it is okay to be gay in the military, Hagel is the not the first person I would pick.

    Yes, my Dear Leader comment refers to the Dear Leader, and I call him this because he is a Marxist/Socialist radical who believes in wealth redistribution. I believe he was born in this country, so the things you list don't apply to me (calling someone a socialist is not the same as being a birther...nice try though), but he is definitely un-American.

    So you've become a dissenting member of the Tea Party since we last met?

    Calling someone anything doesn't make it so.

    So long as there is the understanding that rule works both ways.

    If we're going to start applying a litmus test for who and who isn't an American, most of the GOP, and a large segment of the Cable News Networks should be rounded up as traitors.

    It's funny, if not outright hysterical, because that's exactly what many on the "right" imply that the "left" want to do in their opposition to those who are opposed to their perceived GOP/Right-Wing/Neo-Conservative/Fascist war mongering, hawkish policies.



    If World History tells us anything most tree hugging, environmentalists, Global Warming believers, and Granola Eating Liberals are pussies when it truly comes to standing up to knuckle dragging conservatives.

    They'll encourage them to run off to war, build concentration camps, toss their fellow citizens under a bus, and send them off to death camps, just so that as "individuals" they might live to see another day.

    Don't get me wrong, they'll make signs, block traffic, and sleep in their own feces just before it's time to go back to school, or work, back to their parent's basements, or before the local fire department hoses them off the sidewalks.

    Just as a reminder:

    We're talking about President Obama's nomination for Secretary of Defense, and the Neocons who are opposed.

    I personally don't give two shits about Chuck Hagel, whether he becomes Secretary of Defense or Manager of my local Dairy Queen, I feel pretty confident that he could manage well doing both.

    MY "litmus test" for ENTHUSIASTICALLY supporting him comes primarily from those who vehemently oppose him.

    When a group of Republicans, Neo Cons, Right Wing Pundits, and Neo Conservative Corporate Business Interests pull their skirts up over their heads and begin to wail in unity, in what appears to be a "bipartisan-reaching-across-the-aisle" effort by our President, then something clearly doesn't pass the smell test.

    ~

    And it's funny to me, especially here in CE&P, when an opinion is posted that isn't agreed with that rather than attack the opinion, members from "both sides" attack the one with the opinion.

    It's clear, as a Moderator that I'm no exception.

    And in that regard many posters in this forum wonder why we don't jump through our asses to "right every wrong" that is perceived against them.

    But I guess I'm just a "biased" American.

    Cue: The Texas Anthem!




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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    I didn't... attack... centex

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I didn't... attack... centex
    And why the Fuck Not?

    Or would that be knot?

    Dammit!

    If the shoe fits....



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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    All my libertarian friends used to say that neo-cons were liberals that were mugged by reality. Their disdain for them was epic. (to the point where they preferred Kerry over Bush in 2004)

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    All my libertarian friends used to say that neo-cons were liberals that were mugged by reality. Their disdain for them was epic. (to the point where they preferred Kerry over Bush in 2004)
    Real, actual libertarians would have been terrified of neocons. But too many libertarians are Republicans who just dislike the knuckledragging connotation of the title and enjoy some pot occasionally.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    ^ By BFF, and his Mom were the biggest "pot heads" that I ever knew.

    She's a Barry Goldwater "conservative" who NOW wouldn't vote for a Republican if her life depended upon it, and my BFF is a Ron Paul Libertarian, Alex Jones listening Evangelical Pro Gun Republican.

    He and I have been Best Friends For life because we've been a part of each others life since "middle school."

    (That and he's more "family" to me than my own relatives!)


    I think that we both like the idea that no matter how right or wrong that we think that the other might be, that on election day we cancel out each others vote.
    Last edited by CTF; January 10th, 2013 at 07:27 PM.
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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Um, I am not sure what to make of your response, so I will take it in jest.

    You are correct. A lot of CE&P posters attack others personally with vituperation; I just think they are either Alfie wanna-bees or not able to think of a coherent argument. I just ignore them. Oh, I would fuck their brains out, if only I could pull them away from the computer. I thank the Moderators for putting up with it; people should really behave better.

    Bill Kristol is not a neo-conservative. He is a staunch conservative, certainly heavily influenced by his father, Irving, who was a neo-conservative. Another prominent neo-conservative is David Horowitz.

    The term "neo-conservative" has become a perjorative used by the Left, developed by the Democrats and the MSM; it is classic Allinsky. It is quite effective...much like "tea partier", which is just a group of people who thinks they are taxed enough, already...which I guess make me one.

    I have never cared for Senator Hagel. My impression of him I have gleaned from simply watching him talk on television and reading his comments.

    OK...gotta get back to working to pay my taxes. Thank God my employer hasn't cut my hours to under 30 a week!

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    Um, I am not sure what to make of your response, so I will take it in jest.

    You are correct. A lot of CE&P posters attack others personally with vituperation; I just think they are either Alfie wanna-bees or not able to think of a coherent argument. I just ignore them. Oh, I would fuck their brains out, if only I could pull them away from the computer. I thank the Moderators for putting up with it; people should really behave better.

    Bill Kristol is not a neo-conservative. He is a staunch conservative, certainly heavily influenced by his father, Irving, who was a neo-conservative. Another prominent neo-conservative is David Horowitz.

    The term "neo-conservative" has become a perjorative used by the Left, developed by the Democrats and the MSM; it is classic Allinsky. It is quite effective...much like "tea partier", which is just a group of people who thinks they are taxed enough, already...which I guess make me one.

    I have never cared for Senator Hagel. My impression of him I have gleaned from simply watching him talk on television and reading his comments.

    OK...gotta get back to working to pay my taxes. Thank God my employer hasn't cut my hours to under 30 a week!
    Do you make over 250k?

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    As senator Hagel was the most disposed towards those opposed to Israel, those accomodating to the Iranian government, to Hamas and Hezbollah of anyone. Leon Panetta, who is leaving Defense after this term has nwever been confused for a conservative OR neoconservative but has been steadfast in support of Israel and a tough line against Iran and their proxies of Hezbollah and Hamas. Chuck Hagel honorably served, but is the wrong choice at the wrong time for leadership of the Defense Department. It is funny though to see some Republicans bring up his actions from 14 years ago emphasizing homophobic arguments against a nominee as an excuse to oppose him when bar for a very few top GOP leadership has stood against gays for quite a while now...opposing gays from serving in the armed forces, opposing equal legal status for gay couples who commit to one another and have stood by while the religious right fights against gay rights in general as "special" treatment, not equality under the law.
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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    The man serves at the pleasure of the president. The moment his anti-gay remarks became public again he immediately apologized with his tail between his legs. Hagel is not going to reshape American foreign policy. That's not his job. He will do whatever Obama tells him to. So regardless if you support Hagel or are against him, your biases are irrelevant to the reality of how the president's cabinet operates.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Everyone in this country believes in wealth redistribution. It's just that conservatives believe in redistributing it to the top.

    The clarity and brilliance of this statement should not go unrecognized.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Do you make over 250k?
    Actually didn't they raise that to 400K.

    Gee Kev. Our hearts are just busting thinking that you are making over 400K in a wage slave job.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Actually didn't they raise that to 400K.

    Gee Kev. Our hearts are just busting thinking that you are making over 400K in a wage slave job.
    They did. But since Obama has always sought to raise taxes on 250k and up since before fiscal cliff, I just used that number to cover any possible claim of "Obama wants to raise our taxes." If you aren't making over 250k that statement can't possibly apply to the speaker.

  34. #34

    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Everyone in this country believes in wealth redistribution. It's just that conservatives believe in redistributing it to the top.
    Falsehood. Conservatives believe in no such thing. Show is a instance of what you claim is redistributing to the top.
    Last edited by opinterph; January 11th, 2013 at 04:42 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Falsehood. Conservatives believe in no such thing. Show is a instance of what you claim is redistributing to the top.
    The Iraq War. The Wall Street Bailouts. The housing speculation disaster. The CA energy crisis. Add to the list almost everything you see happen in an atmosphere of deregulation or lack of proper regulation. Republican tax policy, Republican attempts to attack the estate tax, the fact that current tax policy taxes those who make most of their income through deferred compensation or alternative benefits packages at a much lower rate than a W-2 wage earner.

    The entire structure of our society benefits those with the most and enables them to get richer, and Republicans with virtually their entire platform and ideology want to further increase that advantage.

    The richest people commensurately benefit the most from almost everything in society that collective labor or tax dollars have paid for-- whether it's an educated, literate workforce, roads to drive on, infrastructure, and most especially from resource related wars overseas (and their related private contractor dollars) that have almost nothing to do with the legitimate self-defense of our nation at home (i.e. virtually every war since WWII), far more than an average American does, while paying less back in and earning far more. There is an endless wailing from them that even what they do pay is far, far too much, and this cry would continue even if the tax rate was 0.1%.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Oh Mr. Volio. You just got totally owned by Buzzer.
    Last edited by rareboy; January 11th, 2013 at 06:12 AM.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    Hiya Centex...it is good to see you, too! Thanks for the clarification.

    I haven't followed this cabinet thing too closely, seeing as how I am working my butt off to pay all the extra taxes that I now have to pay (even though I am middle class...who knew?), and since I am not a federal worker, I don't have a lot of time on my hands.

    But I think is that Hagel is the wrong pick for Secretary of Defense because of how he views the people in the DOD, how he has not supported them. Plus, he views our ally Israel with disdain. And I wish the JUB CE&P posters would go look up the term "neoconservative", and realize that these are former Leftists and not just people who advocated for the Iraq war.

    Moreover, now that it is okay to be gay in the military, Hagel is the not the first person I would pick.

    Yes, my Dear Leader comment refers to the Dear Leader, and I call him this because he is a Marxist/Socialist radical who believes in wealth redistribution. I believe he was born in this country, so the things you list don't apply to me (calling someone a socialist is not the same as being a birther...nice try though), but he is definitely un-American.

    I am a retired Federal worker; 38 years of service. With my high school education, I started as a GS-4 Clerk. I worked my butt off in a variety of positions while also going to college. All to get ahead. It paid off.

    I retired from a senior executive position. I worked a minimum 50 hours per week in the office. I took work home most weekends. I was on-call 24/7, even when on "vacation". The majority of my co-workers, regardless of grade/rank, were dedicated, hardworking civil servants.

    This is why I don't appreciate ignorant, sweeping generalizations about any group of people. Disparaging others to make your "argument", rather than providing facts/information/links to support your position seems to be prevalent in various CE&P threads. If you have a strong belief, you should then be able to debate with facts, not personal animosity.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    The Iraq War. The Wall Street Bailouts. The housing speculation disaster. The CA energy crisis. Add to the list almost everything you see happen in an atmosphere of deregulation or lack of proper regulation. Republican tax policy, Republican attempts to attack the estate tax, the fact that current tax policy taxes those who make most of their income through deferred compensation or alternative benefits packages at a much lower rate than a W-2 wage earner.

    The entire structure of our society benefits those with the most and enables them to get richer, and Republicans with virtually their entire platform and ideology want to further increase that advantage.

    The richest people commensurately benefit the most from almost everything in society that collective labor or tax dollars have paid for-- whether it's an educated, literate workforce, roads to drive on, infrastructure, and most especially from resource related wars overseas (and their related private contractor dollars) that have almost nothing to do with the legitimate self-defense of our nation at home (i.e. virtually every war since WWII), far more than an average American does, while paying less back in and earning far more. There is an endless wailing from them that even what they do pay is far, far too much, and this cry would continue even if the tax rate was 0.1%.
    *taps shoulder* You should be aware that all of those things were perpetrated and advocated for by Neocons and reactionaries, not conservatives.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    Um, I am not sure what to make of your response, so I will take it in jest.

    You are correct. A lot of CE&P posters attack others personally with vituperation; I just think they are either Alfie wanna-bees or not able to think of a coherent argument. I just ignore them. Oh, I would fuck their brains out, if only I could pull them away from the computer. I thank the Moderators for putting up with it; people should really behave better.

    Bill Kristol is not a neo-conservative. He is a staunch conservative, certainly heavily influenced by his father, Irving, who was a neo-conservative. Another prominent neo-conservative is David Horowitz.

    The term "neo-conservative" has become a perjorative used by the Left, developed by the Democrats and the MSM; it is classic Allinsky. It is quite effective...much like "tea partier", which is just a group of people who thinks they are taxed enough, already...which I guess make me one.

    I have never cared for Senator Hagel. My impression of him I have gleaned from simply watching him talk on television and reading his comments.

    OK...gotta get back to working to pay my taxes. Thank God my employer hasn't cut my hours to under 30 a week!
    Bill Kristol is a neocon. Anyone that denies that doesn't have the slightest idea what they're talking about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    They did. But since Obama has always sought to raise taxes on 250k and up since before fiscal cliff, I just used that number to cover any possible claim of "Obama wants to raise our taxes." If you aren't making over 250k that statement can't possibly apply to the speaker.
    The payroll tax holiday expired, so taxes did go up for everybody.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Bill Kristol is a neocon. Anyone that denies that doesn't have the slightest idea what they're talking about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The payroll tax holiday expired, so taxes did go up for everybody.
    They damned sure did! I'm a salaried Manager, which means that I get paid the same every two weeks, and I most certainly noticed the "hit."
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    The Iraq War. The Wall Street Bailouts. The housing speculation disaster. The CA energy crisis. Add to the list almost everything you see happen in an atmosphere of deregulation or lack of proper regulation. Republican tax policy, Republican attempts to attack the estate tax, the fact that current tax policy taxes those who make most of their income through deferred compensation or alternative benefits packages at a much lower rate than a W-2 wage earner.

    The entire structure of our society benefits those with the most and enables them to get richer, and Republicans with virtually their entire platform and ideology want to further increase that advantage.

    The richest people commensurately benefit the most from almost everything in society that collective labor or tax dollars have paid for-- whether it's an educated, literate workforce, roads to drive on, infrastructure, and most especially from resource related wars overseas (and their related private contractor dollars) that have almost nothing to do with the legitimate self-defense of our nation at home (i.e. virtually every war since WWII), far more than an average American does, while paying less back in and earning far more. There is an endless wailing from them that even what they do pay is far, far too much, and this cry would continue even if the tax rate was 0.1%.
    Damn Son! Why don't you trying breaking that down for us?

    It's true! The American Middle Class does most if not all of the work, the living, the dying, and fighting wars, and paying more than their fair share of taxes, while our jobs are being downsized, marginalized, and minimized.

    We continue to pay our fair share, while our Nation's infrastructure, public schools, and social safety nets go into decline.

    But if you listen to what passes for "conservatives" in this country, we don't "pay" for anything.

    To them and the neocons we're nothing but cannon fodder, and leaches.

    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    *taps shoulder* You should be aware that all of those things were perpetrated and advocated for by Neocons and reactionaries, not conservatives.
    Oh, and just to give you props; when you first started posting here in CE&P a few years ago, I thought that you might be one of "those" neocon/conservatives.

    I want to publicly applaud your defense of what a "conservative" actually is, and you're ability to denounce those who claim to be, and those who try to distort the differences.

    Straight Up!
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Give Kristol and Hagel boxing gloves and throw them in the ring.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Oh, and just to give you props; when you first started posting here in CE&P a few years ago, I thought that you might be one of "those" neocon/conservatives.

    I want to publicly applaud your defense of what a "conservative" actually is, and you're ability to denounce those who claim to be, and those who try to distort the differences.

    Straight Up!
    Heh. Thanks! I was one, actually. Byproduct of the school I went to. Junior year I took dueling courses in American Conservatism and Progressivism, which helped me 'see the light' and see the neocons for the frauds they were.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Heh. Thanks! I was one, actually. Byproduct of the school I went to. Junior year I took dueling courses in American Conservatism and Progressivism, which helped me 'see the light' and see the neocons for the frauds they were.
    On both accounts I'm now certain.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Just because Wikipedia says Bill Kristol was a neoconservative doesn't make it so...he was never a Leftist, and that is the sine qua non. I think you are confusing this with the perjorative. Just because he is Jewish and was a strong advocate for the Iraq war, does not make him a neoconservative.

    But back to topic, the President is entitled to make whatever appointments he wants, with the advice and consent of the Senate. I am sure he will receive the same goodwill and deference shown Bush 43. I personally don't see Hagel making it through.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    In the other Hagel thread I said take'em or leave'em....But wait a minute....Why is the Gay community giving Hagel a pass for the derogatory comments he made about the Gay Ambassador and demanded Pastor Giglio be ejected from the inaugural events?

    Is it because Hagel apologized for his past remarks AFTER Obama offered him the Defense job and Pastor Giglio didnt apologize?

    Now I feel Hagel should be kicked to the curb...How is he any different than Giglio?..Hagel would've been kicked to the curb had we learned he called somebody the N-word back in the day...

    I find this weeks events interesting and puzzled that the Gay community is picking certain Fights...One guy is long-term while the other Guy is short-term but both have the same Fucking views on Gays...I say get rid of BOTH....

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    Just because Wikipedia says Bill Kristol was a neoconservative doesn't make it so...he was never a Leftist, and that is the sine qua non. I think you are confusing this with the perjorative. Just because he is Jewish and was a strong advocate for the Iraq war, does not make him a neoconservative.

    But back to topic, the President is entitled to make whatever appointments he wants, with the advice and consent of the Senate. I am sure he will receive the same goodwill and deference shown Bush 43. I personally don't see Hagel making it through.
    Look at his policy positions. Look at who he has supported on the national political stage. He is a neoconservative. That fact is unquestioned in conservative and libertarian circles, and for good reason.

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    The term "neo-conservative" has become a perjorative used by the Left, developed by the Democrats and the MSM; it is classic Allinsky.
    I think it is possible that some of the tactics used by Saul Alinsky are not unique to him and that certain elements embodied in those tactics may also be used by entities other than the Left, Democrats, or the mainstream media. I agree that established terms are sometimes presented in such a way as to effectively make them pejorative; however, I do not think that technique is, of itself, indicative of an allegiance to Mr. Alinsky, his tactics, or the general effort known as community organizing.

    Am I wrong?

    neoconservatism, variant of the political ideology of conservatism that combines features of traditional conservatism with political individualism and a qualified endorsement of free markets. [Encyclopedia Britannica]
    So today I Googled "Origin of Neoconservatism." Here is the results page ... if you go to that page and start clicking on links, you'll be busy for many years. If I waited to completely understand all of this, or to read a balanced number of posts from both the right and left, I would never get a blog post written. [Politics After 50]
    Alinsky provides a collection of rules to guide the process. But he emphasizes these rules must be translated into real-life tactics that are fluid and responsive to the situation at hand.


    Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage. [Vancouver Community Network]


    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    But yeah, the talking points that you illustrated are exactly what I'm talking about.

    ... Ergo, the continued personal attacks against President Obama.
    To what degree do you think those attacks denote an allegiance to Saul Alinsky, his tactics, or the general effort known as community organizing?

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    Re: The Neocons vs. Chuck Hagel

    The man used the term "Jewish Lobby" when he should have used "Israel Lobby". That's why some people incline to label him anti-Jewish.

    If the man truly was smart, he would know that there really is no more of a united Jewish or Israel lobby anymore (there are too many Jewish and Israeli influential institutions to name on this page that all try to influence Congress).... those lobby's are more divided than ever about Israel and politics in general.

    Hagel is not anti-Israel though or anti-Jewish. I agree this craziness is over the top.

    Moving on.

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