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Thread: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

      
   
  1. #51
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ^^
    You're saying that Americans want to be taxed at a high rate, want the government to interfere more in their personal lives, and want the US Military reduced to a minimal state where national security is in jeopardy.
    Who said America wants to be taxed at a high rate? If Social Security taxes are a "high tax rate" then it's one Americans largely support, yes. However you are distorting my words and you are also operating from the false premise that Obama represents high tax rates for most Americans. He doesn't. He specifically cut taxes to the great majority of Americans. And the people he DOES want to raise taxes on, the overwhelming majority of Americans support raising taxes on, because they've had a freaking gravy train for 12 years.

    So I don't know what you're on about.

  2. #52

    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    ^^
    I think you find it hard to support your idea of Americans wanting higher taxes, less security, and more government intrusion.
    "That’s the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.” Barack Obama, 2-10-14

  3. #53
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ^^
    I think you find it hard to support your idea of Americans wanting higher taxes, less security, and more government intrusion.
    I think you threw out a straw man and I'm not going to defend a position just because you 'say' it's the liberal one. However ill informed you may be.

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So moderate Republicans agree with the Tea Party? lol.
    Who said that? I didn't.

  5. #55
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Who said that? I didn't.
    They would never join the democratic party because, even if they are moderate, they still vehemently disagree with their tax policy.

    The big difference is that instead of holding everyone hostage over those beliefs, they're willing to compromise.
    Yes, you did. The great majority of Americans agree with the Democratic tax platform.

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Lulz. The point was totally wrong. Sorry.

    Most Americans agree with the democrats on both domestic and foreign matters, and definitely on the tax plans.
    Actually, they don't. Americans are a diverse bunch, and have diverse opinions that don't conform to either party as a whole.

    Back to my original point, though, moderate republicans would never join the democratic party on the tax issue alone. Period.

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Yes, you did. The great majority of Americans agree with the Democratic tax platform.
    I did not say anything about the tea partiers. I was responding to Giancarlo's post about moderate republicans.

    Also, the polls disagree with you:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/158828/ba...g-deficit.aspx

    Americans prefer a balanced approach of tax increases and spending cuts, which is how its always been.

  8. #58
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    I did not say anything about the tea partiers. I was responding to Giancarlo's post about moderate republicans.
    The reason you gave for why moderate Republicans would never cross party lines was the same reason a Tea Partier wouldn't.

    So you're either equating them or saying moderates don't exist.

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    The reason you gave for why moderate Republicans would never cross party lines was the same reason a Tea Partier wouldn't.

    So you're either equating them or saying moderates don't exist.
    No. I'm saying that moderate republicans still stridently believe in lower taxes, but they're more willing to compromise about them. They would not join the democratic party over taxes alone, but they WOULD compromise if necessary. The tea partiers would never compromise, and that's the difference between them.

    Don't put words in my mouth and say I'm 'equating' something when I have done no such thing.

  10. #60
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    No. I'm saying that moderate republicans still stridently believe in lower taxes, but they're more willing to compromise about them. They would not join the democratic party over taxes alone, but they WOULD compromise if necessary. The tea partiers would never compromise, and that's the difference between them.

    Don't put words in my mouth and say I'm 'equating' something when I have done no such thing.
    See:

    They would never join the democratic party because, even if they are moderate, they still vehemently disagree with their tax policy.
    I put absolutely nothing in your mouth.

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    See:



    I put absolutely nothing in your mouth.
    Yes, you did.

    I said absolutely nothing about tea partiers, at all. I did not equate moderates with them, and did not include them in my statement at all.

    As I said, the moderate republicans would never join the democratic party because of the tax issue. They would compromise if a bill came before them that raised taxes though.

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Yes, you did.

    I said absolutely nothing about tea partiers, at all. I did not equate moderates with them, and did not include them in my statement at all.

    As I said, the moderate republicans would never join the democratic party because of the tax issue. They would compromise if a bill came before them that raised taxes though.
    Even if what you are saying is the case those people are irrational as the overwhelming majority of them are not benefitted whatsoever by Republican tax policies.

    I don't think of irrational Republicans who are pretty determined to vote against their own interests as moderates.

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Even if what you are saying is the case those people are irrational as the overwhelming majority of them are not benefitted whatsoever by Republican tax policies.

    I don't think of irrational Republicans who are pretty determined to vote against their own interests as moderates.
    I see now where your confusion lies. You're talking about every day people, I'm talking about lawmakers.

    Moderate republican lawmakers wouldn't switch to the democratic party because the democratic party as a whole trends towards more progressive tax policies that those moderates would not support. The difference between them and the tea party folks, though, is that they will negotiate over those tax issues and be willing to support them under the right circumstances. (like when those taxes are also accompanied by significant spending cuts)

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    I see now where your confusion lies. You're talking about every day people, I'm talking about lawmakers.

    Moderate republican lawmakers wouldn't switch to the democratic party because the democratic party as a whole trends towards more progressive tax policies that those moderates would not support. The difference between them and the tea party folks, though, is that they will negotiate over those tax issues and be willing to support them under the right circumstances. (like when those taxes are also accompanied by significant spending cuts)
    Sorry for the confusion.

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Sorry for the confusion.
    No worries. Its easy to get lines crossed. I do agree with you about moderate citizens though. It wouldn't make sense for them to continue to support a tax policy that doesn't benefit them.

  16. #66
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Do you really believe that? A slim majority might agree with the spin that dem's project in the media -- but the regular American does not want higher taxes, more regulation and intrusion into their daily lives by the government, or less protection as a country at home or abroad.
    Lulz. No wrong. A solid majority back the democrats right now. And this is all wrong... once again. The American people affirmed that in November. So try again.

  17. #67

    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I think you threw out a straw man and I'm not going to defend a position just because you 'say' it's the liberal one. However ill informed you may be.
    That's not a straw man -- I was putting in plain english some of your core beliefs.
    "That’s the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.” Barack Obama, 2-10-14

  18. #68
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    That's not a straw man -- I was putting in plain english some of your core beliefs.
    think you find it hard to support your idea of Americans wanting higher taxes, less security, and more government intrusion.
    Americans want higher taxes on the upper 2~%. Correct. Any claim you want to make that 'liberals' want to raise taxes for 'ordinary Americans' will have to be supported by something other than the endless Republican insistence that "they do" and that Obama's tax policy aims to "raises Americans' taxes" for anyone other than that top group.

    The Department of Homeland Security was a Republican creation and a massive increase in government scope, size and intrusiveness so this notion you have that Democrats have some big huge bureaucracy ready to implement to "intrude" into people's lives is entirely your own fiction. I don't have any clue what you're referring to, in other words.

    So no, you didn't represent my position. You represented a Republican fiction of the progressive position. Which I feel absolutely no need whatsoever to go out and defend, as it's false and based on a lot of nonsense and talking points.

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Republicians don't have a problem with small government when it comes to things like Homeland security,nor when it involves issues like gay marriage or abortion.

  20. #70

    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Americans want higher taxes on the upper 2~%. Correct. Any claim you want to make that 'liberals' want to raise taxes for 'ordinary Americans' will have to be supported by something other than the endless Republican insistence that "they do" and that Obama's tax policy aims to "raises Americans' taxes" for anyone other than that top group.

    The Department of Homeland Security was a Republican creation and a massive increase in government scope, size and intrusiveness so this notion you have that Democrats have some big huge bureaucracy ready to implement to "intrude" into people's lives is entirely your own fiction. I don't have any clue what you're referring to, in other words.

    So no, you didn't represent my position. You represented a Republican fiction of the progressive position. Which I feel absolutely no need whatsoever to go out and defend, as it's false and based on a lot of nonsense and talking points.
    Let me say it in another way -- liberals want to raise taxes on everyone else except themselves.
    "That’s the good thing about being president. I can do whatever I want.” Barack Obama, 2-10-14

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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Yeah, that goes into bullshit territory. It's not even stupid enough to bash...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  22. #72
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    .
    MODERATE REPUBLICANS


  23. #73
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    They are not the only group that wants to see BOTH parties move back towards the center and bipartisanship.

    No Labels: Stop Fighting. Start Fixing.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  24. #74
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    The democrats are not towards center? They are. They are right of center and perhaps moving more towards the center. The republicans are in loonyville.

  25. #75
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    Re: Moderate Republicans Begin Move Away From Party, Toward Democrats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Let me say it in another way -- liberals want to raise taxes on everyone else except themselves.
    Incorrect. Simple as that. You're using Bill O'Reilly's reasoning when he expressed mystification at how Hawaii-- so full of Asians who are "so hardworking and industrious", could be blue.

    You espouse the same mindset that people are Republican because they work and people are Democrat because they want "free stuff."

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