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  1. #1
    Sex God youfiad's Avatar
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    Colder than Absolute Zero.

    This article means much more to me than it probably does for most of you. Ther reason is, in high school, I had an argument with my friend about Absolute Zero and how I didn't subscribe to the idea that something was impossible, ABSOLUTE zero, meaning nothing can ever get colder in the history of the universe for the rest of time, ever, period. I essentially stated that proving a negetive is impossible and that scientists will work out the kinks and get under absolute zero. When I stared studying physics and chemistry more in depth in college, I started losing faith that my hypothesis had any validity. Until now, I felt like I had lost the battle. I bring to you, awesomeness

    http://www.space.com/19127-atoms-col...lute-zero.html

  2. #2
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    YES! Another barrier down, Speed of Light here we come!
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  3. #3
    Sex God youfiad's Avatar
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    YES! Another barrier down, Speed of Light here we come!
    We'll never catch it.......

    Okay, maybe the joke was funnier in my head.

  4. #4
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Oddly, another way to look at these negative temperatures is to consider them hotter than infinity, researchers added.
    *head explodes*
    All those wasted miles - all those aimless drives, through green aisles. Our careless life style: it was not so unwise.

  5. #5
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbeebs View Post
    *head explodes*
    It makes sense when seen by boltzman's model of quantum mechanics.

  6. #6
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Naturally.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  7. #7
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    *walks into thread*

    *head explodes*

    *Miss Patrick Campbell scrapes up remains, puts into 55-gallon drum on dolly*

    *is wheeled out of thread on dolly*
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - 28th Amendment, US Constitution?
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  8. #8

    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Something about this article gives me a bad feeling... Messing around with the stuff that glues the universe together (dark energy) doesn't seem like such a great idea.

    I'm reminded of a book The Gods Themselves, where scientists harness the laws of a parallel universe to create free unlimited energy. Only the price is that the physics of our own universe are in danger of coming undone.


    .. If we can reverse entropy, might we possibly be undoing the big bang? Wouldn't we return to the way the universe started, an even mixture of matter and antimatter?
    Last edited by vidarr; January 5th, 2013 at 03:00 AM.

  9. #9
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by vidarr View Post
    .. If we can reverse entropy, might we possibly be undoing the big bang? Wouldn't we return to the way the universe started, an even mixture of matter and antimatter?
    But for billions of years before that, we'd never have to dust the furniture again.

  10. #10
    Sex God youfiad's Avatar
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by vidarr View Post
    Something about this article gives me a bad feeling... Messing around with the stuff that glues the universe together (dark energy) doesn't seem like such a great idea.

    I'm reminded of a book The Gods Themselves, where scientists harness the laws of a parallel universe to create free unlimited energy. Only the price is that the physics of our own universe are in danger of coming undone.


    .. If we can reverse entropy, might we possibly be undoing the big bang? Wouldn't we return to the way the universe started, an even mixture of matter and antimatter?
    There has never been a shred of evidence that even suggests that dark matter or energy even exist. It's sort of a place holder to help scientists explain certain galactic phenomenon until something else is proposed, which, there have been opposite hypothesis out there.

    Reversing entropy, that's an interesting thing to ponder, haha. For some reason, I can't even picture that happening. But yes, that would assume that the universe collapses back on itself. I remember people being all scared that scientists were goign to open up a blackhole that would swallow our solar system in particle accelerators. I don't think that we have the resources on earth, at this point, to cause anything to catastrophic.

    As far as the equal mixture of matter and anti-matter, that would never happen.. The universe wasn't made from matter and antimatter, they were a result of the explosion and matter won the war within a trillioth of a second. They are far far far far far far far too reactive to ever crease an 50/50 equilibrium.
    Last edited by youfiad; January 5th, 2013 at 10:27 AM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    * peeks into thread *
    * sees all the brain matter splatter *
    * quietly closes the door and tiptoes away *

    Seriously awesome topic. I do not possess the education to contribute but glad you made it here. I love reading about this stuff but have to leave the talking to the grownups... or the geeks....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  12. #12
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    I knew that was possible all along.

  13. #13
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    * peeks into thread *
    * sees all the brain matter splatter *
    * quietly closes the door and tiptoes away *

    Seriously awesome topic. I do not possess the education to contribute but glad you made it here. I love reading about this stuff but have to leave the talking to the grownups... or the geeks....
    Whew! I'm glad someone else came up with this. All these newbies scare me.
    As you can see, I can only come up with the explanation of empty headed.
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  14. #14

    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    There has never been a shred of evidence that even suggests that dark matter or energy even exist. It's sort of a place holder to help scientists explain certain galactic phenomenon until something else is proposed, which, there have been opposite hypothesis out there.
    True, because it's so exotic there really isn't a way to directly observe it. But we can see it's effects on collisions between galaxies, gravitational lensing and so on.. SOMETHING is happening there.

    ON Topic: I wonder what kind of power is required to "turn the dial" back on temperature and keep it stable.
    Do y'all think it's possible that we will see this as a power source some day?
    Like the discovery of atomic energy, this could have vast consequences for our society.

  15. #15
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    YES! Another barrier down, Speed of Light here we come!
    It may have happened. Apparently, some neutrinos can exceed the speed of light:

    http://www.livescience.com/16214-imp...neutrinos.html

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    There has never been a shred of evidence that even suggests that dark matter or energy even exist. It's sort of a place holder to help scientists explain certain galactic phenomenon until something else is proposed, which, there have been opposite hypothesis out there.

    Reversing entropy, that's an interesting thing to ponder, haha. For some reason, I can't even picture that happening. But yes, that would assume that the universe collapses back on itself. I remember people being all scared that scientists were goign to open up a blackhole that would swallow our solar system in particle accelerators. I don't think that we have the resources on earth, at this point, to cause anything to catastrophic.
    Locally reversing entropy wouldn't necessarily imply that the universe would collapse back on itself. OTOH, it might be a way to create a white hole....


    or set off a new Big Bang?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #17
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    I blame Obama

  18. #18

    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Does this mean that science books have to be rewritten?

  19. #19
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    * peeks into thread *
    * sees all the brain matter splatter *
    * quietly closes the door and tiptoes away *

    Seriously awesome topic. I do not possess the education to contribute but glad you made it here. I love reading about this stuff but have to leave the talking to the grownups... or the geeks....
    Wait for me!

  20. #20
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    I blame Obama
    LMAO

  21. #21
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Does this mean that science books have to be rewritten?
    If so, keep it away from the Texas Board of Education!
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  22. #22
    Enthusiast of Love Ambrocious's Avatar
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Science is an ever growing field of information. The highest form of science will merge into a supernatural thing I believe one day. Don't mistake the word "supernatural" for the word "religious" because that’s totally not it.

    What I mean to say is that the understanding of science can be further advanced by the understanding of ancient geometry and such. A rather fascinating subject would have to be some videos on YouTube called "Spirit Science". Here is episode 1, they keep getting better:




    Here is the super cute guy who does these videos:


    Jordan David

  23. #23
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrocious View Post

    Here is the super cute guy who does these videos:


    Jordan David
    Now this would get me interested in physics and chemistry

  24. #24
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Does this mean that science books have to be rewritten?
    Every year -- just like always.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Ambrocious...science only seeks to explain the natural world. The supernatural is not science, because it is beyond natural. If it were able to be proven real (ergo, natural) then it could be considered science. But it's not (at least for the time being, not that expect any change; keeping options open).

    This is really cool.. a continuous loop of thermodynamic temperature.

    Ingenious. Potentially dangerous. They usually fall hand in hand.

  26. #26
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    I didn't subscribe to the idea that something was impossible, ABSOLUTE zero, meaning nothing can ever get colder in the history of the universe for the rest of time, ever, period
    You were absolutely correct, youfiad. Something can get colder.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    on Hurricane Katrina..

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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by vidarr View Post
    True, because it's so exotic there really isn't a way to directly observe it. But we can see it's effects on collisions between galaxies, gravitational lensing and so on.. SOMETHING is happening there.

    ON Topic: I wonder what kind of power is required to "turn the dial" back on temperature and keep it stable.
    Do y'all think it's possible that we will see this as a power source some day?
    Like the discovery of atomic energy, this could have vast consequences for our society.
    Meh. I wouldn't jump to conclusins and say that galactic phenomenon necessarily contitute evidence, at least enough to suggest that something exists. Additionally, there are some pretty strong ideas out there about dark matter/energy.

    I don't think we will see this anytime in the predictable future. And, I believe that the human species will whipe itself out before this happens. I do think that nuclear fussion is much more probable as an energy source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It may have happened. Apparently, some neutrinos can exceed the speed of light:

    http://www.livescience.com/16214-imp...neutrinos.html
    Meh, the neutrino thing is, in my mind, a whole misunderstanding between human convention and measurability. I think that's it's just a matter of how accurately the tols that were used to measure it can actually go. Also, if I recall, didn't this only happen one time out of many attemps? I didn't read your article, but I remember seeing something about it last year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Locally reversing entropy wouldn't necessarily imply that the universe would collapse back on itself. OTOH, it might be a way to create a white hole....


    or set off a new Big Bang?
    Locally reversing entropy? I'm not sure if I understand what this means? Entropy is not a localized phenomenon. It's a universal phenomenon. You can have localized decreases in entropy, as long as it is paid for by a larger increase in entropy to the universe. Maybe I misread what you were trying to say?

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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Meh. I wouldn't jump to conclusins and say that galactic phenomenon necessarily contitute evidence, at least enough to suggest that something exists. Additionally, there are some pretty strong ideas out there about dark matter/energy.
    I don't know who it was, but a physicist on the tube the other day told a reporter that what the term "dark matter" really means is "something is there exerting a gravitational effect, so we call it matter, and we can't detect it except for its gravitational effect, so we call it dark". I thought that was pretty honest.

    I'll note that it doesn't just affect the revolution of matter around galactic centers; it also affects the trajectories of galaxies related to each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I don't think we will see this anytime in the predictable future.
    Not without a Manhattan Project type effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    And, I believe that the human species will whipe itself out before this happens.
    No, I think the Goa'uld will get us.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I do think that nuclear fussion is much more probable as an energy source.
    True. But if this proves out, can you imagine using it to tweak fusion to get more heat from it? Sort of an "e=mc^2 (except when below absolute zero)".

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Meh, the neutrino thing is, in my mind, a whole misunderstanding between human convention and measurability. I think that's it's just a matter of how accurately the tols that were used to measure it can actually go. Also, if I recall, didn't this only happen one time out of many attemps? I didn't read your article, but I remember seeing something about it last year.
    There have been a couple of different measurements that support it. The troubling thing for the researchers is that the numbers for the percentage past the speed of light vary within a factor of 10^4.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Locally reversing entropy? I'm not sure if I understand what this means? Entropy is not a localized phenomenon. It's a universal phenomenon. You can have localized decreases in entropy, as long as it is paid for by a larger increase in entropy to the universe. Maybe I misread what you were trying to say?
    I was referring to this:

    Another odd consequence of negative temperatures has to do with entropy, which is a measure of how disorderly a system is. When objects with positive temperature release energy, they increase the entropy of things around them, making them behave more chaotically. However, when objects with negative temperatures release energy, they can actually absorb entropy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #29
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Hmm, that absorbing entropy seems a little weird to me. It's making it sound as if they consider entropy to be an actual entity. From what I understand about thermodynamics (which has always been fairly foreign to me) is that entropy is a human convention moreso than a physical entity. I guess I just don't get what the authors meant there.

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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Hmm, that absorbing entropy seems a little weird to me. It's making it sound as if they consider entropy to be an actual entity. From what I understand about thermodynamics (which has always been fairly foreign to me) is that entropy is a human convention moreso than a physical entity. I guess I just don't get what the authors meant there.
    I think it's just odd word usage. The only thing that makes sense is that under these conditions, you can produce energy and decrease entropy.

    That's a wonderful and disturbing thought.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    I talked to a physics professor at my school today, and he drew up some equations talking about it.

    http://postimage.org/image/dq4qke0yj/ (I took a picture of it so I could post it -- some of the stuff was from an experiment we were doing )

    I don't know how much you will be able to make sense of it, but he explained it fine. Nevertheless, I still struggle to grasp it...

  32. #32
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    I have just changed the definition of Absolute Zero. Fuss over.

  33. #33

    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    I had to look up Entropy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
    This is WAY over my head.

    Anything below 40 F is TOO cold for me.
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I talked to a physics professor at my school today, and he drew up some equations talking about it.

    http://postimage.org/image/dq4qke0yj/ (I took a picture of it so I could post it -- some of the stuff was from an experiment we were doing )

    I don't know how much you will be able to make sense of it, but he explained it fine. Nevertheless, I still struggle to grasp it...
    Looks like one of those things that I could understand if I'd been there but can't make heads or tails of just looking at it -- and probably couldn't recall how the explanation went after I heard it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by borg69unimatrix View Post
    I had to look up Entropy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
    This is WAY over my head.

    Anything below 40 F is TOO cold for me.
    Quiz:

    Which image represents a higher state of entropy?


    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  36. #36
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    ^The bottom one?^


    Quote Originally Posted by borg69unimatrix View Post
    I had to look up Entropy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
    This is WAY over my head.

    Anything below 40 F is TOO cold for me.
    I spent 2 years in Hawaii and 50 was too cold for me. Ha
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  37. #37

    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    My stating I'm an idiot wasn't enough for you? You have to drag me through the fire, point, and laugh along with it??

    After re-reading the wiki site on Entropy (skimmed is more like it) - I guess I have a 50/50 shot.

    I'm going to go with the first picture.
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic216959_1.gif

  38. #38
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by borg69unimatrix View Post
    My stating I'm an idiot wasn't enough for you? You have to drag me through the fire, point, and laugh along with it??

    After re-reading the wiki site on Entropy (skimmed is more like it) - I guess I have a 50/50 shot.

    I'm going to go with the first picture.
    If I'm not utterly lost... this article is saying that it's possible for quantum states to increase and temperature to decrease....
    but I have no idea.

  39. #39
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    I found temperatures under absolute zero in my studio way back in November. Should have posted a topic then...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  40. #40

    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Quiz:

    Which image represents a higher state of entropy?

    I don't think anyone cares. I know I don't.


  41. #41

    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    I'd like to know what the correct answer is.
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic216959_1.gif

  42. #42
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by borg69unimatrix View Post
    I'd like to know what the correct answer is.
    From the wiki article you linked, "the higher the entropy the greater the disorder". So the heap of sand has a higher entropy than the nifty sand 'castle'.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  43. #43

    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    I guessed right... but probably for the wrong reasons.

    I mainly picked #1 because it looked like a miniature mountain, and "natural". I figured anything to do with physics had to be found in nature, which (in my mind) let out #2 (excluding ice/crystals).

    Basically - I just got a lucky guess.
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic216959_1.gif

  44. #44
    Keeland
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    It's the second one because it's post-apocalypse Manhattan.

  45. #45
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    (I took a picture of it so I could post it -- some of the stuff was from an experiment we were doing )
    Don't believe a word of it! His calculations are entirely nonvalid. He forgot to factor in the value of polar bear flatulence.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - 28th Amendment, US Constitution?
    "But, hey, who cares about women and their rights when the religious liberty of a nationwide chain of arts and crafts stores is at stake?" - Daily Kos, 30 June 2014
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  46. #46
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Don't believe a word of it! His calculations are entirely nonvalid. He forgot to factor in the value of polar bear flatulence.
    Polar bear flatulence increases entropy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  47. #47
    Sex God youfiad's Avatar
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Polar bear flatulence increases entropy.
    Everything increases entropy!!! YAY FOR A DESTROYED UNIVERSE!!

  48. #48
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Everything increases entropy!!! YAY FOR A DESTROYED UNIVERSE!!
    We just have to wait for the Cosmic Computer.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  49. #49
    Look, listen and rejoice oakpope's Avatar
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    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    Absolute zero is absence of any movement, which is impossible as per quantum mechanic. They did say in their article that the result of their experience is actually quite hot.

    Nothing in the universe can actually be at 0 K, if mathematics are valid in all universe.
    Magna Veritas


  50. #50

    Re: Colder than Absolute Zero.

    If it's colder than absolute zero, absolute zero no longer exists.

    Isn't that what science is all about -- accepting new proven facts?

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