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  1. #151
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    Re: Women defending themselves with *Gasp* guns!

    ^ More importantly, far too few studies have been done at all. The NRA have made sure of that.

  2. #152
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Women defending themselves with *Gasp* guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Why don't you ask them? As you will note from my latest posts, I'm not much into the whose stats are better issue here. I make note of the information as it comes along and the criticisms of the data and file it all into my overall picture of the subject but I think its a waste to sit here debating the minutia of the stats instead of the bigger issue. Sometimes I will puzzle of a general question that arises out of the data like how can gun crime be higher in an area with strict gun laws than the neighboring area with less strict laws? If the increased gun crimes are due to the access to guns in the neighboring area shouldn't they be near the same all things being equal? Which leads to the most likely conclusion that all things are not equal and you have to then question that inequality and what its impact on the data is. But it fairly clear that far too many of the studies done on both sides of this subject are influenced by an agenda and flawed.
    Influenced by an agenda does not mean flawed. Only flawed means flawed. And unless a side can show where a study is flawed, the fact that it is biased doesn't automatically make it so.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  3. #153
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: Women defending themselves with *Gasp* guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Influenced by an agenda does not mean flawed. Only flawed means flawed. And unless a side can show where a study is flawed, the fact that it is biased doesn't automatically make it so.
    Well I'll leave it to the sides who care about the minutia to argue about it.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  4. #154
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    Re: Women defending themselves with *Gasp* guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    What the NCVS also tells us is that home ownership of guns provides a huge ability for criminals to get access to guns because they are so often stolen.
    Which is why a law requiring secure storage of all but immediate self-defense weapons should be passed, under the aegis of Article 1 Section 8, "disciplining" (not as in correcting, but providing for proper discipline) the militia, should be passed. Having a gun in a bedroom night stand for self defense is one thing; having long guns sitting loose in a closet is negligent.

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    And so we veer into the world of "I don't like your sources, you don't like mine". But Kleck's study has copped a a barrage of criticism over the years from private and Government bodies because of blatant flaws in methodology. In fact, the flaws in the NSDS were the very reason that the Dept Of Justice changed the collection methodology for the NCVS in the late 90s.
    I take all the sources into account, and err on the conservative side.

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    If Kleck's figures were true, there would be several hundred thousand gun deaths in the US every year. And if they were true, there would be tens of thousands of criminals killed by victims each year, when we know there are typically less than 300.
    How would there be "several hundred thousand gun deaths"? IIRC, his figure for gun deaths is less than 3% of the total actual shootings, which is only a small percentage of defensive uses. So if there are a million defensive uses, his figures would give somewhere between 20k and 40k firearms deaths, which is the range the actual figure falls in.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #155
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    Re: Women defending themselves with *Gasp* guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That is where I would wonder if they have more sensible restrictions than we do on who can pick up firearms and what kinds they can get.
    Or storage -- I'd guess if everyone in the US stored their firearms properly, the theft rate would drop to a third of the current figure.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #156
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    Re: Women defending themselves with *Gasp* guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    .... displaying and using a gun has become a crime so criminals started eschewing gun use in their crimes as it increased the chances of being caught and the resulting punishment. So if correct the most effective means to reduce gun crime is not necessarily reducing the number of guns (which is very difficult to do) but implementing very strong punitive laws for using a gun in a crime and enforcing them.
    The NRA has been advocating laws like that for years, with the "Project Exile" model, but just because it's the NRA it tends to get stymied in committees. The fact is that where penalties have been imposed for using or even having a gun while committing a crime, gun violence has plunged.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #157
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    Re: Women defending themselves with *Gasp* guns!

    Thinking of Project Exile and the aforementioned rate of gun theft, I had a small inspiration: a law making the theft of a firearm a federal offense, on the grounds that it is interference with a basic right. Instead of the mere one year such a conviction will brings in some states, make it a mandatory minimum of three years added to any sentence -- with no good time reduction and no parole possibility.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #158
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Women defending themselves with *Gasp* guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Or storage -- I'd guess if everyone in the US stored their firearms properly, the theft rate would drop to a third of the current figure.
    Well, if I understand correctly, the whole militia thing initially was based on a system where people would store their guns in a shared storage house, and not in their homes. Since the guns were, yunno, only used for MILITIA purposes.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  9. #159
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    Re: Women defending themselves with *Gasp* guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Well, if I understand correctly, the whole militia thing initially was based on a system where people would store their guns in a shared storage house, and not in their homes. Since the guns were, yunno, only used for MILITIA purposes.
    No. Personal weapons were kept at home, except those the militia bought for members who couldn't afford them. Supplies for powder and shot were stored in case of calling up the militia; members had to obtain their own for regular use.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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