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  1. #1
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    A lot of you have described varying degrees of outrage over the killing of Anwar al-Aulaqi.

    I understand some of the outrage is a vessel to attack Obama and some of it is justified outrage based on personal belief. I have argued that by our definition of the enemy in this conflict he was very much a justified target. I read a lot about our foreign policy from a variety of sources. A lot of the best things I read come from Foreign Policy Magazine which has a daily push of interesting FP articles. One of which was this Atlantic Piece that is fairly well written and adequately describes the decision process.

    How Obama Decides Your Fate If He Thinks You're a Terrorist


    And while the article is a good read the main point is the decision matrix. << That is an interactive and provides information required for each step when you click on each box. So I didn't put a picture of it in this thread.

    So that is one facet or tidbit of info for this discussion. Additionally:

    Last night Rachel Maddow interviewed Jeh Johnson the out going Pentagon Chief Legal Counsel who was responsible for the legalities of the roll out of repealing DADT. That and doing it so as to not affect our military mission or efficacy. I would like to point out that under his guide they built the denial of benefits entirely around DOMA so when it fails to prevent couple from acquiring benefits then it should be an easy jump to domestic partner benefits for service members. SO while that last part is not germane, I want you to understand why I trust this guys opinion.

    Her lead in was about POW camps in World War Two and how they weren't actually emptied until MONTHS after the war ended. So with the war on terror being this open ended commitment that apparently has no end, will we have prisoners forever? Well, Jeh Johnson used one of his last few addresses to offer something that has yet to be embraced by anyone who has assumed power in this nation -- that the war on terror will eventually reach a point where we know it is over and we can stop the open ended war commitment and spending.... you can find the clip HERE if you click on the first Jeh Johnson clip... That idea is made ever more complex by an intransigent congress (Read House Republicans) that refuse to allow anything be done with the prisoners while at the same time offering no solution.


    So big lead in I know but knowledge is power and all of that. SO my question is this: Being that Obama is against the war efforts but knows we must responsibly end our efforts and must do so in a manner that protects America. Do you think his unpublished work on a decision matrix where it relies primarily on legal avenues is the next obvious step? Where we employ both military might sparingly and legal avenues to continue to defeat terrorist? Finally, will congress ever get a fucking clue and stop hamstringing the normal process of trial or release for prisoners of war?

    I personally think this will be the Obama Doctrine once all is said and done. I additionally think if we had a congress intent on something other than simply hamstringing Obama we could then work through these prisoners and remove this apparently never ending blight of holding people indefinitely.

    Now I know there will be plenty of we are a police state and Obama is a hatey hater hatey hate and such... but if you would please keep it confined to the questions at hand... and even more so offer discourse on that and possible constructive solutions....

    Cheers
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    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    The flow chart seems sensible, but it doesn't actually give anything to suggest that the process of answering each question is not subjective. Some of them, such as whether the individual is in a country that would extradite him, are plainly objective, but others aren't, with the result that it isn't clear just how much objectivity is involved in the end.

    Good read, though.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Benedict Arnold. Guilty by flow chart?

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    It is rather subjective Kuli but so is the process with which we decide military targets. Don't get me wrong I have no delusions that terrorist deserve legal protections. I think they are enemies and deserve none. That and this is pieced together by the folks at Atlantic not a set in stone policy... simply what they can divine.

    I just wonder if something like this will be the foreign policy legacy of BHO. I don't think we will cease drone strike type warfare in a multitude of countries that allow our presence. If for no other reason than the countries let us and it allows us to keep terrorist organizations off balance.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Enemies of the US deserve "legal protections" more than anyone else - it's why we aren't THEM.

    I personally don't want to be a culture that ignores our principals because we hate. That would mean we have no principals at all.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Enemies in war time are authorized to be eliminated. It has been the nature of our nation since it's inception. It is the nature of the political act of war. That is entirely legal. That is of course not the question. If we made some legal process for pulling the trigger we could never fight another war. For a country built upon projection of strength it would not work. So that isn't going to happen. Or rather it isn't going to be the only method.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Can we get members of congress on this matrix ?

    Mercy killing?

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Damn and I am the heartless one.... you advocate the killing of our elected leadership... whether in jest or not it certainly doesn't contribute to the conversation.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Damn and I am the heartless one.... you advocate the killing of our elected leadership... whether in jest or not it certainly doesn't contribute to the conversation.
    the difference obviously is tone and intent

    and you as the standard maker is obscene and absurd - pick one or both

    sorry to interrupt your deep thread

    i'm cool with BO picking off bad guys

    better ?

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Why is this under discussion? The police and other authorities kill people all the time for activity far less heinous. I just see no reason to "cry a river." Call him collateral damage.

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Why is this under discussion? The police and other authorities kill people all the time for activity far less heinous. I just see no reason to "cry a river." Call him collateral damage.
    a very good question indeed

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    I just don't understand this discussion. We blew Osama Bin Ladin away, but on what public evidence? True, he wasn't US. Anyone who thinks that black ops don't exist is deluded. You can be US or Martian and if they want you dead, well, devil take the hindmost.

    If you're on US soil you might have some technical protection. So one would think.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Not really attempting to discuss whether or not we do it or whether or not we will continue. I assumed that was obvious based on our history as war first questions later.

    What I wonder is by this point (end of first four years) we had a defined and discussed Bush Doctrine. What will be defined as Obama"s Doctrine?

    The secondary question was whether or not congress will ever cease obstructing the normal process for prisoners of war. because no matter how you view the process that is how we as a nation are treating the detainees here and in Afghanistan. There are hundreds of prisoners in detention in Afghanistan that congress has just formalized the obstruction for any action releasing or bring them to a normal justice process. I mean in the end if you believe we are leaving combat operations in 2014 then they should have to make a choice. But we do intend to leave 6 to 20 thousand troops in the country so do they become a fortress of prison operators overseas?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  14. #14

    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    The problem with the war on terror is it is a war against an amorphous concept, not a nation or specifically definable group.
    The US has not declared war on Pakistan or Yemen or Somalia. I cannot see how the use of weapons of war against targets in countries you are not actually at war with can be justified, particularly when you have now taken to defining anyone killed by a drone strike being a 'militant'. President Obama wept for the 20 children murdered in Connecticut yet seems unconcerned about the 249 (and counting) children who have been killed by drone strikes.

    Would it have been acceptable to use a drone strike against Timothy Mcveigh, or if there was an Al Qaeda cell living in your apartment block would it be OK to take out the whole block with a missile if it had been deemed too difficult to arrest them ? I suspect not.

    You can't have it both ways because your perceived enemy is inconveniently not aligned to a definable country. If it is acceptable as part of your war on terror to kill civilians and destroy civilian targets (because alleged terrorist suspects are believed to be in the area), then logically, it is equally acceptable for those on the other side of the conflict to kill civilians in countries they perceive as their enemies, if, by their chosen definition of warfare, doing so would help them to win.

    We cannot claim moral superiority when we choose to abandon morals which are inconvenient.
    "I'm not a moccodity"

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Point very well taken.

    Couple of additional points. We act in those countries at the request and with the permission of the governments of those countries. Not contrary to their wishes.

    Yes children have been killed and it is a horrible collateral damage cost. However the apartment complex you refer to would be filled end to end with terrorist and their families. I don't minimize your point at all but when countries declare war it is acceptable internationally for collateral damage of that nature when it is determined to be unavoidable. It can be something you disagree with entirely but it does not violate some moral high ground. Study the Law of Armed Conflict for a much more realistic definition than I can type.

    Finally, If you think the rule of law exist the same way in any of those nations you offer as it does in a town in the US then you are massively deceiving yourself. Hence the matrix where every other outcome is worked through including our justice system and the host country justice system.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    This is one topic where progressives live in a fantasy world

    As if treating terrorists with reason as if that would help ............ would be not only the right thing to do but effective

    Obama as Bush as Clinton as ........ knows that fantasy land is a great spot in Disneyworld but not in the real world

    Tough decisions need to be made that might be at odds with a moral code

    but the alternative to making those decisions is dead americans and potential destruction of our way of life

    easy choice really

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    I think we have the right to "off" US'ers that have turned. I doubt we have the right to kill non-US'ers, but what the hell. That's collateral damage -- in much the same way Sandy Hook was collateral damage for our mental health system and gun control policy. See, you can have collateral damage from a policy.

    I quite frankly think the entire discussion is strained.
    Last edited by palbert; January 5th, 2013 at 09:26 AM.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Actually Chance I could argue that both Clinton and then Bush failed to recognize we were being attacked by an enemy without a home. I don't know that anyone would have saw it before such a tragic event as 9/11. That aside any number of failed states could produce a harbor for people with no home that blame it upon the United States and the western world instead of the oppressive leadership of their own nations.

    Take a look at the Failed States map and not that any of the countries in red could harbor terrorist.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/failed_...12_interactive

    that map gives a good idea of how we respond differently to different nations. Some nations want the threat neutralized and lack the resources so they ask us to perform the job. Some nations are vocally against anything american so we limit their resources via embargoes to prevent their terrorist from having the resources to reach out internationally. Some of these states we use their neighbors to control what leaves their nation. We are only acting with drone strikes in a handful of these failed states.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I think we have the right to "off" US'ers that have turned. I doubt we have the right to kill non-US'ers, but what the hell. That's collateral damage -- in much the same way Sandy Hook was collateral damage for our mental health system and gun control policy. See, you can have collateral damage from a policy.

    I quite frankly think the entire discussion is strained.
    Strained or not this is the logic to which we are acting on the world stage so it cant simply be disregarded. Equally we are not going to fold into our own borders and simply pray no one comes knocking.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Enemies in war time are authorized to be eliminated. It has been the nature of our nation since it's inception. It is the nature of the political act of war. That is entirely legal. That is of course not the question. If we made some legal process for pulling the trigger we could never fight another war. For a country built upon projection of strength it would not work. So that isn't going to happen. Or rather it isn't going to be the only method.
    Back at the beginning the country wasn't built on "projection of strength", it was built on "leave us alone". If we'd returned to that policy after every instance where we felt it necessary to be involved in war overseas, we'd probably be better off.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Ah but that is an argument that failed. Notably in WWI and WWII so we started a league of nations later called the UN. Throughout the years for a variety of reason we have signed treaties with other sovereign nations. We would no more give up that position as we would willingly adopt the Won as the worlds currency. It is simply not in our interest.

    Republicans like to compare us to Greece to scare voters but the reality is if the dollar weren't the world currency we would be Greece already.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    Would it have been acceptable to use a drone strike against Timothy Mcveigh, or if there was an Al Qaeda cell living in your apartment block would it be OK to take out the whole block with a missile if it had been deemed too difficult to arrest them ? I suspect not.

    You can't have it both ways because your perceived enemy is inconveniently not aligned to a definable country. If it is acceptable as part of your war on terror to kill civilians and destroy civilian targets (because alleged terrorist suspects are believed to be in the area), then logically, it is equally acceptable for those on the other side of the conflict to kill civilians in countries they perceive as their enemies, if, by their chosen definition of warfare, doing so would help them to win.

    We cannot claim moral superiority when we choose to abandon morals which are inconvenient.
    There's a major difference: opportunities to kill terrorist targets have been passed on because estimated collateral casualties were deemed to have been too high; OTOH the terrorists deliberately choose targets to kill as many as possible. So while we may be fracturing some morals, the other side is deliberately spitting on them.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Actually Chance I could argue that both Clinton and then Bush failed to recognize we were being attacked by an enemy without a home. I don't know that anyone would have saw it before such a tragic event as 9/11. That aside any number of failed states could produce a harbor for people with no home that blame it upon the United States and the western world instead of the oppressive leadership of their own nations.

    Take a look at the Failed States map and not that any of the countries in red could harbor terrorist.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/failed_...12_interactive

    that map gives a good idea of how we respond differently to different nations. Some nations want the threat neutralized and lack the resources so they ask us to perform the job. Some nations are vocally against anything american so we limit their resources via embargoes to prevent their terrorist from having the resources to reach out internationally. Some of these states we use their neighbors to control what leaves their nation. We are only acting with drone strikes in a handful of these failed states.
    i've seen some talking heads - some on MJ I believe and CNN where the case was made that Clinton/Bush ignored warnings about non country enemies - and the focus was on same old same old country/leader based enemies - part dumb, part hard to understand - but i hear u - post 911 it's impossible to ignore and the more u dig, the worse it gets

    i give obama full kudos for the execution (no pun intended) of this strategy btw - and this is not news

    holy shit - that's some map

    i wanna go to australia gorgeous boys AND safe - what a combo

    i need to digest that one but it's ...... i don't know what it is but it's interesting - thanks for sharing

    it's daunting - we're damned if we involved ourselves and damned if we don't

    not sure i can truly wrap my hands around the complexity - actually i'm quite sure i can't

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There's a major difference: opportunities to kill terrorist targets have been passed on because estimated collateral casualties were deemed to have been too high; OTOH the terrorists deliberately choose targets to kill as many as possible. So while we may be fracturing some morals, the other side is deliberately spitting on them.
    That is a very valid point. We strike terrorist and try to avoid collateral damage. they attempt to get the most civilian casualty count as possible to make their effort have the greatest impact.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    This is one topic where progressives live in a fantasy world

    As if treating terrorists with reason as if that would help ............ would be not only the right thing to do but effective
    Who here has advocated trying to reason with terrorists?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i've seen some talking heads - some on MJ I believe and CNN where the case was made that Clinton/Bush ignored warnings about non country enemies - and the focus was on same old same old country/leader based enemies - part dumb, part hard to understand - but i hear u - post 911 it's impossible to ignore and the more u dig, the worse it gets

    i give obama full kudos for the execution (no pun intended) of this strategy btw - and this is not news

    holy shit - that's some map

    i wanna go to australia gorgeous boys AND safe - what a combo

    i need to digest that one but it's ...... i don't know what it is but it's interesting - thanks for sharing

    it's daunting - we're damned if we involved ourselves and damned if we don't

    not sure i can truly wrap my hands around the complexity - actually i'm quite sure i can't
    I think while plenty of people for political gain like to say Bush failed or Clinton failed -- I would wager they had the facts in front of them... not that 9/11 would happen but that something was on the radar but were helpless to act. Can you imagine the world and the argument now if Clinton had unilaterally taken out Bin Laden and then started fighting his lieutenants?
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Strained or not this is the logic to which we are acting on the world stage so it cant simply be disregarded. Equally we are not going to fold into our own borders and simply pray no one comes knocking.
    Yes, it's a bit late for that.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    it's daunting - we're damned if we involved ourselves and damned if we don't

    not sure i can truly wrap my hands around the complexity - actually i'm quite sure i can't
    The conundrum of the Long Walls.

    It's a situation that has been faced by peoples down through history: give up freedom and morals to better fight a foe, or hold to freedom and morals and arguably enable the foe. The "Long Walls" situation in Athens' war against Sparta and it allies is the classical instance; writers at the time wailed that in order to beat Sparta -- and survive -- Athens had to become Sparta.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I think while plenty of people for political gain like to say Bush failed or Clinton failed -- I would wager they had the facts in front of them... not that 9/11 would happen but that something was on the radar but were helpless to act. Can you imagine the world and the argument now if Clinton had unilaterally taken out Bin Laden and then started fighting his lieutenants?
    Democrats especially would never have stood for a president striking when there was no actual harm to the US.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Democrats especially would never have stood for a president striking when there was no actual harm to the US.
    Many republicans as well. Like the next Secy of Defense. At a minimum it would have fractured their resolve in a time when that party was one hundred percent in lockstep.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Who here has advocated trying to reason with terrorists?
    i took post 14 to be saying just that here

    and I know that many of the far left are quite upset with obama for his proactive terrorist execution approach

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I think while plenty of people for political gain like to say Bush failed or Clinton failed -- I would wager they had the facts in front of them... not that 9/11 would happen but that something was on the radar but were helpless to act. Can you imagine the world and the argument now if Clinton had unilaterally taken out Bin Laden and then started fighting his lieutenants?
    interesting - you have a more benign take than i for once

    i'm imagining it's just like in business

    u have some leaders who see the future or a semblance of it before it happens - some act, take perceived but not real risks to move their co. forward - i'm sorta ok with that but would rather have a leader - in biz or govt. that can see or looks to see into the future BEFORE it happens - those that do have the best chance to benefit - monetarily or in this security wise - but need to convince others that their vision is ON

    some don't see it because they're so convinced that the current way is the way - the only way - i imagine clinton/bush teams being this type of group - it's harder to see/understand cuz it's new and it's scary to see it - and better to say it's an aberration

    some are lazy and if things are OK why rock the boat

    i'm droning here but

    IMO, it's why it's great NOT to have groupthink - to have different types of people/thinkers in an organization - private or govt. - so that things are not only seen but understood

    thanks for listening i'm here all week ...... try the veal

  33. #33

    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    The problem with the war on terror is it is a war against an amorphous concept, not a nation or specifically definable group.
    The US has not declared war on Pakistan or Yemen or Somalia. I cannot see how the use of weapons of war against targets in countries you are not actually at war with can be justified, particularly when you have now taken to defining anyone killed by a drone strike being a 'militant'. President Obama wept for the 20 children murdered in Connecticut yet seems unconcerned about the 249 (and counting) children who have been killed by drone strikes.

    Would it have been acceptable to use a drone strike against Timothy Mcveigh, or if there was an Al Qaeda cell living in your apartment block would it be OK to take out the whole block with a missile if it had been deemed too difficult to arrest them ? I suspect not.

    You can't have it both ways because your perceived enemy is inconveniently not aligned to a definable country. If it is acceptable as part of your war on terror to kill civilians and destroy civilian targets (because alleged terrorist suspects are believed to be in the area), then logically, it is equally acceptable for those on the other side of the conflict to kill civilians in countries they perceive as their enemies, if, by their chosen definition of warfare, doing so would help them to win.

    We cannot claim moral superiority when we choose to abandon morals which are inconvenient.
    We already have done it in the US --- in Waco, TX. The Davidians were all killed including children. It's still not known if it was an accident or intentional.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege

    With drones so easy to use it's only a matter of time for the strategic use of armed drones to be used in the USA on a regular basis.

    It's not a good thing.

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    ^ Well, if you keep posting the kind of stuff you do...the big scary US government will probably Google your house and mark it for certain.

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    .... and I know that many of the far left are quite upset with obama for his proactive terrorist execution approach
    Let them upset be.

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    The problem with the war on terror is it is a war against an amorphous concept, not a nation or specifically definable group.
    The US has not declared war on Pakistan or Yemen or Somalia. I cannot see how the use of weapons of war against targets in countries you are not actually at war with can be justified, particularly when you have now taken to defining anyone killed by a drone strike being a 'militant'. President Obama wept for the 20 children murdered in Connecticut yet seems unconcerned about the 249 (and counting) children who have been killed by drone strikes.

    Would it have been acceptable to use a drone strike against Timothy Mcveigh, or if there was an Al Qaeda cell living in your apartment block would it be OK to take out the whole block with a missile if it had been deemed too difficult to arrest them ? I suspect not.

    You can't have it both ways because your perceived enemy is inconveniently not aligned to a definable country. If it is acceptable as part of your war on terror to kill civilians and destroy civilian targets (because alleged terrorist suspects are believed to be in the area), then logically, it is equally acceptable for those on the other side of the conflict to kill civilians in countries they perceive as their enemies, if, by their chosen definition of warfare, doing so would help them to win.

    We cannot claim moral superiority when we choose to abandon morals which are inconvenient.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Who here has advocated trying to reason with terrorists?
    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i took post 14 to be saying just that here

    and I know that many of the far left are quite upset with obama for his proactive terrorist execution approach
    I quoted it above for reference. I don't see where it says anything about reasoning with terrorists, though it engages in a good deal of reasoning about our moral position vis a vis actions against terrorists -- and does a fairly good job at it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I quoted it above for reference. I don't see where it says anything about reasoning with terrorists, though it engages in a good deal of reasoning about our moral position vis a vis actions against terrorists -- and does a fairly good job at it.
    i think you're over thinking it Kuli

    the simple stupid is that levens doesn't think we should take this tact with "countries" we are not at war with

    because it is not the moral thing to do

    but it is the most effective thing to do

    and the alternative to effectiveness is americans dead and possibly worse

    IMO "reasoning with terrorists" is akin to not looking to search and destroy with all means available

    but i do understand your WTF on this

    hope that helps

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i think you're over thinking it Kuli

    the simple stupid is that levens doesn't think we should take this tact with "countries" we are not at war with

    because it is not the moral thing to do

    but it is the most effective thing to do

    and the alternative to effectiveness is americans dead and possibly worse

    IMO "reasoning with terrorists" is akin to not looking to search and destroy with all means available

    but i do understand your WTF on this

    hope that helps
    In the long run, that which is most moral is most effective. The proof of that is that our "effective" but immoral behavior as a country created Al Qaeda.

    Again, no one but you has brought up the idea of reasoning with terrorists.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Take a look at the Failed States map and not that any of the countries in red could harbor terrorist.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/failed_...12_interactive
    Not really on topic, but it's interesting that Newfoundland isn't shown as part of Canada.

    I kind of used this to test some of my geography and guess/find places like Moldova and Zambia without looking at the names...
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

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  40. #40

    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i think you're over thinking it Kuli

    the simple stupid is that levens doesn't think we should take this tact with "countries" we are not at war with

    because it is not the moral thing to do

    but it is the most effective thing to do

    and the alternative to effectiveness is americans dead and possibly worse

    IMO "reasoning with terrorists" is akin to not looking to search and destroy with all means available

    but i do understand your WTF on this

    hope that helps
    Let's try another scenario. Mexico is blighted by murderous drug gangs who source many of their guns from the black or grey market in weapons in the US. The US government seems unable or unwilling to stop the flow of guns. I'm sure many in Mexico consider the drug cartels to be terrorists (or a very close equivalent) yet they are not of any distinct nation or recognisable group. Would you accept Mexico sending drones to fire hellfire missiles at Texan gun shows if they knew (or had received information from someone they had tortured) there were drug cartel associates shopping for guns there? Would America accept it as collateral damage for Mexico to blow up a bunch of American gun show attendees in the name of preventing future atrocities in Mexico? If, as I suspect your answer is 'no', then why not? You are OK with America killing anyone they choose to in other countries to, hopefully, safeguard the US. Is it not rank hypocrisy to object if Mexico chose the same tactic for their war?

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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Not really on topic, but it's interesting that Newfoundland isn't shown as part of Canada.

    I kind of used this to test some of my geography and guess/find places like Moldova and Zambia without looking at the names...
    The map has some exceptions at the bottom that explains it has mistakes based on programming and lack of reporting.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by levenshulme31 View Post
    Let's try another scenario. Mexico is blighted by murderous drug gangs who source many of their guns from the black or grey market in weapons in the US. The US government seems unable or unwilling to stop the flow of guns. I'm sure many in Mexico consider the drug cartels to be terrorists (or a very close equivalent) yet they are not of any distinct nation or recognisable group. Would you accept Mexico sending drones to fire hellfire missiles at Texan gun shows if they knew (or had received information from someone they had tortured) there were drug cartel associates shopping for guns there? Would America accept it as collateral damage for Mexico to blow up a bunch of American gun show attendees in the name of preventing future atrocities in Mexico? If, as I suspect your answer is 'no', then why not? You are OK with America killing anyone they choose to in other countries to, hopefully, safeguard the US. Is it not rank hypocrisy to object if Mexico chose the same tactic for their war?
    The small little fact you appear to conveniently avoid is that our drone strikes occur in countries that give us permission to do so. In your scenario does the US lack the law enforcement capability to stop said activity? Did the US give permission to Mexico's drone flights?

    I suspect if the idea came up the US would offer to use drone strikes to eliminate the Cartels for the Mexican government. They havent ask of course because parts of their government are owned by the cartels and wouldn't allow it. 3000 people were killed in Juarez while 500 were killed in Chicago. The two cities have equal access to guns in Texas.... So what is the difference? Law Enforcement.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: A Decision Matrix For Killing Terrorist That Are US Citizens!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The small little fact you appear to conveniently avoid is that our drone strikes occur in countries that give us permission to do so. In your scenario does the US lack the law enforcement capability to stop said activity? Did the US give permission to Mexico's drone flights?

    I suspect if the idea came up the US would offer to use drone strikes to eliminate the Cartels for the Mexican government. They havent ask of course because parts of their government are owned by the cartels and wouldn't allow it. 3000 people were killed in Juarez while 500 were killed in Chicago. The two cities have equal access to guns in Texas.... So what is the difference? Law Enforcement.
    Another difference is that the Mexican cartels are getting the great majority of their weapons smuggled across the southern border, helped by people who hate the central government, so they're using fully automatic weapons and other things they can't get in the US.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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