Colonialism = Slavery

[Benvolio]

Every single cent earned by Australian society today was enabled by taking the land, permanently, away from people who used to live there. That's valueless and the continuing value Australian society enjoys by having that land will never go away unless someone else takes it from them.

What's given to indigenous people as guilt money for that is less than chump change compared to that. It's nothing. It's less than dust.

If the biggest thing you have to rage about is indigenous people getting some aid money in exchange for "here, sorry, we completely destroyed your people and way of life, we'll feel bad if we leave you in TOTAL poverty..", then think about how good you have it in life.

Of course that is false. The Australian people, by their labor and creativity have built a modern and successful society upon land which was largely vacant before. The aboriginal people retain their way of life--as miserable as it is. If you think they are being mistreated, it is only because you, and they, romanticize their prior existence-- without medicine, soap, bathing or bathroom facilities, or modern tools, clothing etc. Objectively they are far better than before.

[xbuzzerx]

Of course that is false. The Australian people, by their labor and creativity have built a modern and successful society upon land which was largely vacant before. The aboriginal people retain their way of life--as miserable as it is. If you think they are being mistreated, it is only because you, and they, romanticize their prior existence-- without medicine, soap, bathing or bathroom facilities, or modern tools, clothing etc. Objectively they are far better than before.

With one broad stroke you completely devalue one way of life and praise another and then claim your conclusion is objective.

[JockBoy87]

Not since all the newspapers fired all the copy editors to save money thinking MS Word spell check was 'good enough'. (grins)

Better than JUB...

Academic journals, however, are pretty flawless.

[Rolyo85]

Of course that is false. The Australian people, by their labor and creativity have built a modern and successful society upon land which was largely vacant before. The aboriginal people retain their way of life--as miserable as it is. If you think they are being mistreated, it is only because you, and they, romanticize their prior existence-- without medicine, soap, bathing or bathroom facilities, or modern tools, clothing etc. Objectively they are far better than before.

You know, since they retained their way of life for far longer than Western civilization has existed, it stands to reason that if they really desperately needed "bathroom facilities", they would have invented those.

That is, if one has any reason for something to stand to...

[TX-Beau]

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/4929/

It's official, Ben lives in 1892.

[Benvolio]

With one broad stroke you completely devalue one way of life and praise another and then claim your conclusion is objective.

No, objectively they are better off wth medicine than without. They are better off with moden fabrics rather than having their women chew leather to make it soft. Objectively, they are better with horses and motor vehicles than without. With soap and clean water than without. With steel tools than without. Etc.

[Benvolio]

We can agree that the US owns the Moon, since we were there first, that being the governing principle.

[xbuzzerx]

No, objectively they are better off wth medicine than without. They are better off with moden fabrics rather than having their women chew leather to make it soft. Objectively, they are better with horses and motor vehicles than without. With soap and clean water than without. With steel tools than without. Etc.

There are more conveniences today than in the past, true.

What would that have to do with saying "so it's good the Jews endured the holocaust, they have it better today"? That's what you're doing.

[Benvolio]

There are more conveniences today than in the past, true.

What would that have to do with saying "so it's good the Jews endured the holocaust, they have it better today"? That's what you're doing.

Not at all. You have repeatedly complained that whites took away their "way of life". It is largely the conveniences which have altered their way of life. Even the horse, the rifle and metal knives are white conveniences.

[Rolyo85]

Again, if their life was unhappy without those, they'd come up with them.

[xbuzzerx]

Not at all. You have repeatedly complained that whites took away their "way of life". It is largely the conveniences which have altered their way of life. Even the horse, the rifle and metal knives are white conveniences.

Sure if you rule out disease, violence, warfare, forced removal from land, and generations of intentionally restrictive or genocidal policies and forced cultural assimilation and boarding schools to break use of language and culture... sure, the only thing that changed whatsoever is they got some modern conveniences.

In an incredibly revisionist view of things.

[bankside]

I hear this kind of bitching about aboriginal people in Canada: "Seriously, we're flying jet planes and they whine about wanting to 'keep their way of life' and do what? Live in a teepee?"

Well, no.

When white people came to canada and cree people were living in teepees, the white settlers in the west were often living in caves made of sod. What has been missing is the equality necessary for aboriginal cultures to let their traditional way of life develop in the same way that settlers let their traditional way of life develop. Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton represent the modern expression of the traditional colonial way of life. If aboriginal cultures had not been contained and confined in reserves* those cities would be subtly different nowadays, and I would argue, stronger for it.

I'd argue the same would be true of Australian civic life, and American, and Brazilian, and Chinese, and Russian, etc.

(*no exaggeration - at one point you needed a passport-like ID document to leave the reserve.)

[TX-Beau]

Shame on you Bankside - no one else got their own reserves, and now the ingrates are bitching?

[Benvolio]

Sure if you rule out disease, violence, warfare, forced removal from land, and generations of intentionally restrictive or genocidal policies and forced cultural assimilation and boarding schools to break use of language and culture... sure, the only thing that changed whatsoever is they got some modern conveniences.

In an incredibly revisionist view of things.

No, I was addressing the complaint that their way of life has been taken. Comparing what they have with what they had before, the change to their way of life is largely a vast superiority of material things and conveniences. Things that happened in the past are in the past.

[palbert]

This is a no win discussion. The Native Peoples are entitled to maintain the lifestyle they cherish. Strange as it may seem to us. If they happen to be situated on oil sands, well, we put them there didn't we?

Similarly, if we truly had National Parks we would close them to intrusion. Elsewise they only preserve our induced change.

[Benvolio]

Again, if their life was unhappy without those, they'd come up with them.

The real question is whether they are better off with the changes. They did not realize how much they needed horses until they got them. And no, if they had realized how unhappy they were without the horse they could not have "come up with them". They needed cloth so as not to have to chew leather. They needed steel knives and tools, but in thousands of years of history did not come up with them. Were they unhappy without medicines? Yes, I am sure, when they were sick they were unhappy, but did not "come up with" them.

[xbuzzerx]

No, I was addressing the complaint that their way of life has been taken. Comparing what they have with what they had before, the change to their way of life is largely a vast superiority of material things and conveniences. Things that happened in the past are in the past.

That is your opinion, it's pretty clear from your statements in this thread that you really aren't much of an expert of anything, least of all this topic, so I'm not sure why you keep repeating it as if it becomes more valid through the repetition.

The real question is whether they are better off with the changes.

Which incidentally is not for you to decide.

[pat grimshaw]

That is your opinion, …

What is your opinion?

Are you going to suggest that the change to their way of life is NOT "largely a vast superiority of material things and conveniences"?

[xbuzzerx]

What is your opinion?

Are you going to suggest that the change to their way of life is NOT "largely a vast superiority of material things and conveniences"?

Read closely.

And troll harder.

[palbert]

.... Are you going to suggest that the change to their way of life is NOT "largely a vast superiority of material things and conveniences"?

THAT is for THEM to decide.

***avoids bannhammer***

[pat grimshaw]

…Which incidentally is not for you to decide.

THAT is for THEM…

I wish one of 'them' were here to speak for themselves rather than the middle class, rich people wringing their hands on behalf of others

[xbuzzerx]

I wish one of 'them' were here to speak for themselves rather than the middle class, rich people wringing their hands on behalf of others

My grandfather came off a reservation in Arkansas.

Talk more, Pat.

[pat grimshaw]

My grandfather came off a reservation in Arkansas.….

Why did he come off?

[xbuzzerx]

Why did he come off?

World War II. What's it to you? Make a point.

[palbert]

I wish one of 'them' were here to speak for themselves rather than the middle class, rich people wringing their hands on behalf of others

Had you not muted, exiled, subjugated, and marginalized them they might be.

Go back to the English prison slaveship your predecessors came over on.

[pat grimshaw]

… Make a point.

You seemed to be suggesting earlier that their life was an Eden. They were 'noble savages' before those evil people came from Europe and spoiled everything.

[TX-Beau]

You're like trying to sound like an asshat, right?

[xbuzzerx]

You seemed to be suggesting earlier that their life was an Eden. They were 'noble savages' before those evil people came from Europe and spoiled everything.

Quote me saying any such thing.

As usual you're having a conversation going on between two fictional entities within your own warped head that has no bearing on anything actually said.

[TX-Beau]

Is he UnderBridge?

[xbuzzerx]

Is he UnderBridge?

He's a piece of filth who trolls any topic where race can REMOTELY be brought up-- more specifically, his almost uncontrollable inability to tolerate "worthless" non contributors and racial minorities. Note the ONE topic that manages to bring him back to CE&P besides the manufacturing one in who-knows-how-long. And he operates the same way in Hot Topics.

And he has a proponent of Eugenics who defended the WWII dictators as his avatar.

He's THAT kind of underbridge.

[palbert]

You seemed to be suggesting earlier that their life was an Eden. They were 'noble savages' before those evil people came from Europe and spoiled everything.

Sorry, Pat: Adam and Eve were noble savages. Your "miscreants" had a sustainable viable acceptable culture until your ancestors were let out of prison.

[pat grimshaw]

^ Your one-eyed obsession about prison-ancestors is silly. I understand Britain was dumping convicts in your continent as well.

I know nothing about your Adam and Eve. I never said "miscreants". And if you say 'they' had a sustainable viable acceptable culture how come all you middle-class hand-wringers don't join them?

[xbuzzerx]

^ Your one-eyed obsession about prison-ancestors is silly. I understand Britain was dumping convicts in your continent as well.

I know nothing about your Adam and Eve. I never said "miscreants". And if you say 'they' had a sustainable viable acceptable culture how come all you middle-class hand-wringers don't join them?

Why don't you repay the debt your ancestors owed so you can go back to the UK in good financial standing?

[Benvolio]

The Native Americans eagerly adopted many of the material conveniences when they became available. Whites did not force them to adopt horses, rifles, steel weapons and tools, medicines, cloth, etc. They were often the objects of theft, so desireable were they. Horses alone brought about the biggest change of their "way of life" in their entire history of many thousands of years.

[palbert]

^ Your one-eyed obsession about prison-ancestors is silly. I understand Britain was dumping convicts in your continent as well.

I know nothing about your Adam and Eve. I never said "miscreants". And if you say 'they' had a sustainable viable acceptable culture how come all you middle-class hand-wringers don't join them?

I do not join them because I was otherwise raised. But I recognize the necessity of preserving their heritage.

Is there a viable NAZI party in Australia or is it underground?

[pat grimshaw]

Xxbuzzxxx. Did your grandfather go back to the reservation?

Palbert. The aboriginals in my city are being taught an aboriginal language. Unfortunately it's not their own.

[Rolyo85]

No, I was addressing the complaint that their way of life has been taken. Comparing what they have with what they had before, the change to their way of life is largely a vast superiority of material things and conveniences. Things that happened in the past are in the past.

You are not the one who decides what a subjugated people whose roots have been destroyed should feel about its current situation. Also, you have no idea what living conditions they face, or how little the law cares about them. Your posts are revisionist, arrogant to the extreme, and overall quite appalling.

[xbuzzerx]

The Native Americans eagerly adopted many of the material conveniences when they became available. Whites did not force them to adopt horses, rifles, steel weapons and tools, medicines, cloth, etc. They were often the objects of theft, so desireable were they. Horses alone brought about the biggest change of their "way of life" in their entire history of many thousands of years.

Of course not. Indigenous people around the world were quite capable of making decisions about which tools enhanced their way of life or were welcome additions. However, YOU are the only one claiming that "the only difference between then and now is their life has been changed by modern conveniences."

As I already stated-- you left out the part about violent, forceful relocation, restriction to generally poor nonviable land, disease, eradication or genocidal policies, forced cultural assimilation, boarding schools and everything else which served to traumatically alter their way of life.

By your same logic the only difference at all in life for a Palestinian of 80 years ago and a Palestinian today is that Israel provided them with a near first world quality country with lots of doo-dads.

[xbuzzerx]

Xxbuzzxxx. Did your grandfather go back to the reservation?

Palbert. The aboriginals in my city are being taught an aboriginal language. Unfortunately it's not their own.

Pat Grimshaw, when your ancestors got over being rapists or murderers why didn't they go back to England?

[pat grimshaw]

…a subjugated people whose roots have been destroyed ….

That's a very grandiloquent statement. But the thing I don't understand how a family can forget its own language. They didn't write so they had to talk to each other.

[Rolyo85]

That's a very grandiloquent statement. But the thing I don't understand how a family can forget its own language. They didn't write so they had to talk to each other.

Well, then clearly the language was just dumb and when SUPERIOR English language was introduced, those dumb savages jumped onto it like old men to boy fresh off the strip pole...

[xbuzzerx]

That's a very grandiloquent statement. But the thing I don't understand how a family can forget its own language. They didn't write so they had to talk to each other.

Kids were dragged out of the arms of their mothers and forced into boarding schools where they would be beaten or have their tongues whipped when caught speaking their native tongue. It was usual for indigenous children raised in boarding schools to never be allowed to go back out into the world until 18. By which time the language had been completely lost for an entire generation.

This was common and a shared practice in the U.S., Australia, and Canada.

Maybe you should actually know the first friggin thing about what you're talking about before you offer troll snipe opinions based in absolutely nothing.

[Rolyo85]

Xxbuzzxxx. Did your grandfather go back to the reservation?

No, because reservations are atrocious, with horrible living conditions, poverty and misery. Which is kind of the point.

[pat grimshaw]

Well, then clearly the language was just dumb and when SUPERIOR English language was introduced, those dumb savages jumped onto it like old men to boy fresh off the strip pole...

There were hundreds of different language groups. They practised exogamy. They didn't write. They relied on oral communication and oral history.

[palbert]

That's a very grandiloquent statement. But the thing I don't understand how a family can forget its own language. They didn't write so they had to talk to each other.

So you're not teaching them their own language? Teaching galley, fo'castle, yardarm, poop deck and other useful terms?

[pat grimshaw]

XXbuzzxx your post 92 is not true of my country

[xbuzzerx]

No, because reservations are atrocious, with horrible living conditions, poverty and misery. Which is kind of the point.

I'm sure PAT's point would be that the reservations are that way because Natives have kept their "original culture" there. Of course the reality is most tribes don't even live on the same land they originally used to live on, didn't know how to survive in, and in many cases was horrible quality land. In the U.S. there had to be a whole slew of supreme court cases just to apportion water rights to tribes because literally they were stuck on useless arid land in the 19th century and told to farm when the land could not be farmed naturally. And then you run into other issues as well like in much of the arid upper midwest and middle America where reservations are located, some of the best crops you could grow (like commercial hemp) in the climate are banned because of the stupid war on drugs.

Reservations are a case study in what happens when you stick people in a place where the land is crap and you've totally cut them off from either traditional or in most cases even conventional methods to be self-sustaining... and people like Pat Grimshaw then swoop in and point at the unemployment, desperation and poor conditions and attribute it to their 'inferior culture.' 'Inferior cultures' which had persisted for thousands of years far back into prehistory and come out of the friggin ice age before western contact.

- - - Updated - - -

There were hundreds of different language groups. They practised exogamy. They didn't write. They relied on oral communication and oral history.

What is your point?

[xbuzzerx]

XXbuzzxx your post 92 is not true of my country

Yes, is is true.

[pat grimshaw]

I'm sure PAT's point would be …

Another rabid assumption

…some of the best crops you could grow

They didn't do crops here.

[palbert]

There were hundreds of different language groups. They practised exogamy. They didn't write. They relied on oral communication and oral history.

They practised exogamy. Are you sure? That's a serious charge hitherto unknown in world civilation. Have you taken this to the UN?