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  1. #51
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    ^It's not private if it's publicly held information: just like the sex offender list.
    Its not publicly held. They had to file a Freedom of Information request to get the information.

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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    No it got stolen when it wasn't secured adequately.

    One of the principles they teach people learning to fly an aeroplane is "it's the pilot's fault." "But the tower said I was cleared for landing." Nope; take your blame and your tears somewhere else; it's the pilot's fault for accepting a bad clearance; it's the pilot's fault for failing to notice an aeroplane off its approach path; it's the pilot's fault for not noticing the other plane with radio failure; it's the pilot's fault that the plane's load is out of balance.

    If they don't teach that concept of responsibility to a gun owner it tells me all I need to know about so-called responsible gun ownership in your country. Frankly I'd pull the licence from anyone careless enough to let his gun get stolen, if not make him liable for equipping someone to commit whatever crimes were subsequently committed.
    Your sentiment is idiotic. If the box is locked, locked to the floor and in a locked vehicle, the owner has more than met the burden of securing it adequately. A determined thief, knowing where something is, will not stop until they get it, which is not the fault or the responsibility of the owner.

  3. #53
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    False, it very much is the responsibility of the owner. Why was it in a vehicle and not at home for example? "I did what I thought was enough" isn't really "enough" as such. Someone may think putting a sign saying "Don't steal!" is enough. "Enough" is what prevented the gun from being stolen.
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    False, it very much is the responsibility of the owner. Why was it in a vehicle and not at home for example? "I did what I thought was enough" isn't really "enough" as such. Someone may think putting a sign saying "Don't steal!" is enough. "Enough" is what prevented the gun from being stolen.
    It was in the vehicle because it is the owner's right to carry the weapon. The owner made adequate preparations to ensure that the gun was secure, but the thief was obviously determined to get it. Anyone that makes the provisions, as described, to prevent theft have met their burden.

  5. #55
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Bottom line it was a security fail.

    Did Kennedy's security team sit down and debrief with a cheerful "Good job, team! We followed all the procedures reasonably necessary to stop the assassination. Sometimes these things just happen!"

    No; it was their failure because the President's life had been lost. Some of us happen to think the lives of people other than just the President's are worth living, and that gun owners should be obliged to take the same attitude of responsibility. The idiocy lies in giving a shit what a two-hundred year old paper says that can be paraded around as a way to evade that responsibility.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  6. #56
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    It was in the vehicle because it is the owner's right to carry the weapon. The owner made adequate preparations to ensure that the gun was secure, but the thief was obviously determined to get it. Anyone that makes the provisions, as described, to prevent theft have met their burden.
    Thank you.

    Why is everybody suddenly getting on his case because double-or-triple-securing his gun from theft wasn't "enough"? (I don't know what the "sweat" thing is, that he mentioned.) What was he supposed to do - load the truck bed with a car that he drives in to block access to the box, then set up the ramp and drive the car out when he needs to get to his gun, and hope he's not injured (or worse) if the car goes off the edge of the ramp, or the ramp collapses? Or is he supposed to hire a crane operator to fill the truck bed with nonfunctional car engines and transmissions, enough to bury the locked storage box and, if he wants to get to his gun, he has to call out a crane operator to unload the engines and transmissions so he can get to the lockbox?

    Anything more elaborate than what Kuli did, and a thief will just make sure there's a way to steal the ENTIRE VEHICLE because there must be something really valuable in that 1,400-pound safe.

    Kuli took a lot more prudence in securing his gun than almost anybody else ever does. Just go to someplace like Texas or New Mexico, and you'll see pickups all over with functional rifles hanging above and behind the driver's head, at the top of or just above the rear window of the pickup cab. I assume they're functional, and not there merely for "decoration" or as a "warning" or something.

    Sasying that it's Kulindahr's fault is no different than those who say that the woman deserve to be raped because showing her cleavage was "just asking for it."
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  7. #57
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Well it seems a local blogger got ahold of the newspaper staff's names and addresses, produced a similar Google Map and published it.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  8. #58
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    (I don't know what the "sweat" thing is, that he mentioned.)
    I think it's a "seat" with a misplaced w.
    Last edited by andysayshi; December 27th, 2012 at 06:40 PM.

  9. #59
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Well it seems a local blogger got ahold of the newspaper staff's names and addresses, produced a similar Google Map and published it.
    the issue for the paper is "is it ethical?" and the answer is no

    so sure they were within their rights .........

    looks like the blogger is playing the same game as the newspaper

    there's no good that can come from either

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2369750.html

  10. #60
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    The NRA's choice of solutions to problems is sort of limited - "Get more guns".
    Okay -- this shows that you're deliberately, purposefully ignorant on the topic. Plenty to the contrary has been published in this forum and elsewhere.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; December 27th, 2012 at 11:36 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

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  11. #61
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    It's funny how "the shooting" was the discussion of dinner tonight [mind you my brother lives in New Haven which is about 30 mins from the incident]. We all concluded that the mother and her failures were the reason of the shooting. If gun owners are not responsible when they know they have delinquent people in the house, they are solely at fault.
    Good point.

    I'll suggest again that a law requiring all but one defense weapon in a house to be locked securely would be sustainable under Heller.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #62
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    No it got stolen when it wasn't secured adequately.

    One of the principles they teach people learning to fly an aeroplane is "it's the pilot's fault." "But the tower said I was cleared for landing." Nope; take your blame and your tears somewhere else; it's the pilot's fault for accepting a bad clearance; it's the pilot's fault for failing to notice an aeroplane off its approach path; it's the pilot's fault for not noticing the other plane with radio failure; it's the pilot's fault that the plane's load is out of balance.

    If they don't teach that concept of responsibility to a gun owner it tells me all I need to know about so-called responsible gun ownership in your country. Frankly I'd pull the licence from anyone careless enough to let his gun get stolen, if not make him liable for equipping someone to commit whatever crimes were subsequently committed.
    Triple locked, and you say "it wasn't secured adequately".

    On that basis, if your brakes ever fail, and your car is totaled and someone killed, it will have crashed because you didn't maintain it properly.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #63
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    It was in the vehicle because it is the owner's right to carry the weapon. The owner made adequate preparations to ensure that the gun was secure, but the thief was obviously determined to get it. Anyone that makes the provisions, as described, to prevent theft have met their burden.
    Common sense and the law agree with you.

    The tragic thing here is that while most people understood that the Second Amendment meant just what most gun owners still are aware that it means, no one mounted a campaign to make unarmed people legally liable for not being armed and able to prevent a crime if it took place when they were present -- because they understand that individuals are not sheep tp be herded about... but now that those who do not choose to take that responsibility on themselves, who want to wiggle the Second Amendment into something it never was, think they have a chance to be in charge, they want to penalize those who are actually being responsible citizens, and criminalize them even when they have done more than is humanly reasonable to make things safe.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #64
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    I think it's a "seat" with a misplaced w.
    I've got to tone down the eggnog, or be more careful in proofreading.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Okay -- this shows that you're deliberately, purposefully ignorant on the topic. Plenty to the contrary has been published in this forum and elsewhere.
    Not really. All the NRA "solutions" boil down to "let's arm X or Y because that will fix it".
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Why would any criminal risk being shot by using this info to go to a house with a gun so that he can steal the gun. Chances are he'd get shot, isn't this the main argument of NRA if you have a gun then no one will mess around with you.

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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Common sense and the law agree with you.

    The tragic thing here is that while most people understood that the Second Amendment meant just what most gun owners still are aware that it means, no one mounted a campaign to make unarmed people legally liable for not being armed and able to prevent a crime if it took place when they were present -- because they understand that individuals are not sheep tp be herded about... but now that those who do not choose to take that responsibility on themselves, who want to wiggle the Second Amendment into something it never was, think they have a chance to be in charge, they want to penalize those who are actually being responsible citizens, and criminalize them even when they have done more than is humanly reasonable to make things safe.
    You don't keep us safe and I'm more worried about mentally ill people with easy access to high end firepower than I am about what the government isn't doing to me because of my lifetime of not having a gun to shoot at them with.

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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You don't keep us safe and I'm more worried about mentally ill people with easy access to high end firepower than I am about what the government isn't doing to me because of my lifetime of not having a gun to shoot at them with.
    You're great about tossing around emotionally-laden terms that are extremely vague. There really isn't any "high end firepower" available to the public, mentally ill or otherwise.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #69
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're great about tossing around emotionally-laden terms that are extremely vague. There really isn't any "high end firepower" available to the public, mentally ill or otherwise.
    That depends on how you define "high end firepower" I guess. And I see we're back to "you're too emotional"...
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're great about tossing around emotionally-laden terms that are extremely vague. There really isn't any "high end firepower" available to the public, mentally ill or otherwise.
    Right... school shootings are all done with pump shotties? My bad.

  21. #71
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    the issue for the paper is "is it ethical?" and the answer is no

    so sure they were within their rights .........

    looks like the blogger is playing the same game as the newspaper

    there's no good that can come from either

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2369750.html
    Totally agree. Just as it was nothing but a political stunt that made a mockery of privacy concerns (the vast majority of gun owners are not criminals and should never be treated like criminals for merely having a weapon) the blog was irresponsible and reckless naming newspaper staff. People of good will can disagree and try to come to some consensus for the public good whenever possible. However today most of those driving the agenda on both ends are absolutists who are not interested in talking and educating but pontificating and demeaning anyone who doesn't toe their line.
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Not really. All the NRA "solutions" boil down to "let's arm X or Y because that will fix it".
    Exactly and I'm sorry to say,that gives too many people a false sense of security.

  23. #73
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    I saw a report somewhere that the same newspaper, now, it going to do a similar list and map of all the registered gun holders in PUTNAM County. This just stinks.

    My biggest understatement of 2012 - I almost missed that opportunity this year.
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by AngolaZee View Post
    Why would any criminal risk being shot by using this info to go to a house with a gun so that he can steal the gun. Chances are he'd get shot, isn't this the main argument of NRA if you have a gun then no one will mess around with you.
    On the other paw, he now has a list of houses to avoid since they likely have guns thus raising the risk to the all the neighbors in those community. Or if he is a criminal looking to obtain a gun without paying, he can simply watch the house and enter when he is sure it is empty.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    So bottom line is - nothing has really changed. The information provided could influence a potential thief in either direction, so it cancels itself out.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  26. #76
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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    If the newspaper made a habit out of routinely posting the names of gun owners and licensees (as they do for financial transactions, the police blotter, etc) then that would be one thing, this is merely a disgusting, self-righteous cheap shot in the wake of Sandy Hook designed to give "bad bad" gun owners a level of vulnerability and discomfort as "payback."

    It's not a question of whether or not they had the RIGHT to post the information (they obviously did) but that they did it for a smug, shitty, grandstanding motive.

    It sucks, and this is coming from a liberal who BELIEVES we need more gun control in this country.

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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Regardless of your opinions on guns it is nothing less than an inexcusable violation of innocent person's privacy. How would you feel if a some newspaper collected and posted the address of every JUB member in the wake of some sex scandal, hmmm? None of these people have ANYTHING to do with the shootings.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NY newspaper publishes gun owners' addresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Regardless of your opinions on guns it is nothing less than an inexcusable violation of innocent person's privacy. How would you feel if a some newspaper collected and posted the address of every JUB member in the wake of some sex scandal, hmmm? None of these people have ANYTHING to do with the shootings.
    I was appalled by the revelation in retaliation of members on the staff of the newspaper that printed the information in the first place but that's the sad thing in the tit for tat blindly partisan politics played today...groups that would be aghast at any infringement of privacy concerns otherwise because they so despise gun ownership throw principle under the bus for scoring cheap political points. Never let a crisis go to waste, lol... privacy rights isn't limited to those whom with we think are righteous but for ALL. I'm glad to have you here Stardreamer to call bullshit when either side gets on their high horse....we have too few people who represent the vast center that 40% OF Americans occupy and I hope you keep doing it here with the reasonableness and steady temperament that is often in short supply here.
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