A Christmas Question for Englishmen

[JohannBessler]

Tally-ho, gents! Merry Christmas to you all.

I have a question for you Englishmen. As every Agatha Christie fan knows, the use of plum pudding serves as an English tradition. Indeed, nothing seems more quintessentially English than a plum pudding, in which various items have been placed--a coin for wealth, a wishbone for good luck, and so on.

By the context of the prose, plum puddings, in addition to representing the spirit of an English Christmas, taste delicious. But not so fast! A modern-day blogger in America, whose forefathers immigrated to the States, tried some of the old family recipes for plum pudding. He served the plum pudding to a group of relatives, who all thought the plum pudding tasted "gross". Apparently, he opines, one has to grow up eating plum pudding to appreciate it.

So my questions are:

*Do you personally like plum pudding?
*Do Englishmen still eat plum pudding for Christmas, or has this tradition ceased?
*If one should attempt to cook the dish, what tips would you suggest to improve it?

If you like, I can give you a link to the blogger. At the very least, you will find it interesting, because he documents his endeavor with pictures at each point.

[quasar]

It will depend on which type of Plum Pudding he made. I've seen some recipes that use carrots and Guiness, and others that use neither. There are differences in the recipe between and English Plum Pudding, Irish Plum Pudding and the American version. I can only vouch for the English version which is gorgeous!

And of course, despite it's name, it doesn't contain plums. It is pretty much a 'heavy' fruitcake - very dark and moist, and of course the fruit is ideally soaked in brandy.

[JohannBessler]

^Upon second rereading, I may have mistaken the part about his "English" immigrant antecedents. He implies it but does not state it directly. Having said that, I can tell you that most assuredly plum pudding is not an American food. I've never met an American who has eaten it.

The ingredients for his great-grandma's recipe follow:

1 cup suet
1 cup raisins
1 cup currants

Grind together three times.

To the ground fruit and fat mixture, you add 1/2 c. molasses, 1 c. brown sugar, 1 1/2 cups sour milk, 2 1/2 c. flour, 1 tsp. salt, 1 1/2 tsp. soda, 1 tsp. baking powder, 1 tsp. nutmeg, and 1 tsp. cloves.

Does this resemble the English version? (PS I think Englishmen call molasses "treacle".)

[Benvolio]

I think it is all that fat that turns Americans off.

[star-warrior]

I'm not partial to it. I've never made it either...

[Taz]

I think it is all that fat that turns Americans off.

I don't think we could possibly be thinking of the same America....

[palbert]

A candidate for 10 Most Disgusting British Foods:

http://www.lunch.com/jbeswick-Top_10...some-2732.html

[JohannBessler]

^I think of Marmite as "Food for Gods". In fact, I will lick it off my fingers. (I know--bad manners. )

I've had spotteddick. I didn't think it too bad. I get the feeling that they may have developed it during the War, when the British War Ministry strictly rationed foodstuffs. It tastes somewhat like raisin bread.

I've never tried any of the others. The only one that sounds really repulsive to me is Jellied Eels, but I can't eat anything with a slimy texture, British or not.

[thinkagain321]

I bet 95% of English people wouldn't be able to tell you what a plum pudding actually is let alone have eaten one. It's an old tradition that certainly isn't part of celebrations today.

[gingentleman]

My Gran used to make puddings at Christmas, using old family recipes. I haven't been able to lay hands on any of the recipes since her passing, but I have my Mother's recipe for figgy pudding, and I know we have altered it over the years to incorporate half figs and half dried plums. I actually like the flavor better with this change, it's just a matter of taste. It was once a much-loved tradition in the family, but has fallen into disuse by the younger generations of the family. Pity. I like the older traditions, myself. At any rate, here it is... 1/2 cup (1 stick) butter, at room temperature
2 eggs
1 cup dark molasses
2 cups dried figs, stems removed & chopped fine
1/2 teaspoon grated lemon peel
1/2 teaspoon grated orange peel
1 cup buttermilk ( or sour milk)
1/2 cup walnuts, chopped
2-1/2 cups all-purpose flour
1 teaspoon baking soda
2 teaspoons baking powder
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/4 teaspoon ground nutmeg
Garnish: Whipped cream

Preparation:
In an electric mixer, cream the butter until fluffy. Add the eggs and molasses and beat again. Add the figs, peel, buttermilk, and walnuts. Blend 1 minute. Add the flour, baking soda, baking powder, salt, cinnamon, and nutmeg. Blend until everything is incorporated.

Grease and flour and 8 by 4-inch souffle dish and pour in the batter. Bake in a 325-degree F. oven for 1 hour, or until a toothpick inserted in the center comes out clean. Make sure not to over-bake, as it will be dry...this should be a moist, dense cake-like texture.

Spoon the pudding onto plates or cut it into wedges. Garnish with whipped cream (whipped fresh, not from a can) or serve with ice cream.

[JohannBessler]

^Thank you for your contribution, Gingentleman.

Looking at the ingredients, and comparing them with the ingredients of spotted dick, it doesn't look all that much different. It seems as if the key difference between the two dishes lies in the addition of the molasses.

I have enough curiosity (and confidence) to try it now. Thanks again.

[Autolycus]

^I think of Marmite as "Food for Gods". In fact, I will lick it off my fingers. (I know--bad manners. )

I've had spotteddick. I didn't think it too bad. I get the feeling that they may have developed it during the War, when the British War Ministry strictly rationed foodstuffs. It tastes somewhat like raisin bread.

I've never tried any of the others. The only one that sounds really repulsive to me is Jellied Eels, but I can't eat anything with a slimy texture, British or not.

As a Brit who lived through WWII, I can assure you that Spotted Dick was probably more ancient than that!

We used to get it in school and it was pretty awful, as was the ginger pudding and chocolate pudding - all boiled up in specially designed tins to create a sausage shaped pud. Water used to get into the tins so that when a slice was plonked onto your plate, it had a layer of white slime around its circumference - YUK!

[JohannBessler]

^You lived through WW2?

Oh, the questions I could ask you! Living through WW2 must have been a real adventure...But this isn't the time or place..

At any rate, the time I tried Spotted dick, I bought it in a tin at the International Market. Presumably because it was mass produced, it didn't contain any water. I didn't think it bad at all, especially when one considers the fact that one is supposed to pour custard creme over it (which I didn't).

What did you think of plum pudding?

[MTLDude]

You have to flambée that kind of pudding!

[JohannBessler]

^The thing is, many of the recipes don't include liquor, or feature any kind of flambee.

[T-Rexx]

Indeed, nothing seems more quintessentially English than a plum pudding, in which various items have been placed--a coin for wealth, a wishbone for good luck, and so on.

They put objects in their food?

How repulsive!!!!

[JohannBessler]

My understanding is that the practice of the objects getting placed in the plum pudding peaked during the Victorian era. There were as many as 12 different items, each meaning a different thing; for example, one specific item (a button?) meant that the eater was liable to get married, and so on.

Later on (the 20s) this practice ceased to some extent. The only thing placed in 1920s+ era plum puddings was the coin. Since only one person at a sitting got the plum pudding with the coin, getting the piece--usually a three-pence or a six-pence coin--was seen as a most propitious turn of luck.

Some recipes for plum pudding involve weeks of preparation, but I haven't heard of very many modern-day Britons mention it. According to our correspondent Gingentleman above (and a couple of others), the eating of plum pudding has fallen into disfavor.

I'd love to try it. I think I will try Gingentleman's recipe, because it doesn't involve the use of suet. (I don't have the equipment to grind the suet properly). I'll let you all know how it turns out.

[HoodedRat]

When I was a kid there was always a silver sixpence (supposedly) hidden in the xmas pudding. Mum managed to arrange it so that a different child got it each year.

[quasar]

Another option would be http://www.englishteastore.com/walke...ing-3-5oz.html

It has to be said however, that because it is extremely rich, one would only serve about half a fist size as a portion. Had it not been banned by the Puritans, I would imagine that Americans would have adapted it to a recipe more suited to their palate over these past couple hundred years.

[trawler69]

Ingredients:

Bricks
Cement
Wood

[JohannBessler]

Another option would be http://www.englishteastore.com/walke...ing-3-5oz.html It has to be said however, that because it is extremely rich, one would only serve about half a fist size as a portion. Had it not been banned by the Puritans, I would imagine that Americans would have adapted it to a recipe more suited to their palate over these past couple hundred years.

Apropos this, even Americans believe that we have always given the fish eye to the consumption of alcohol--and by extension, foods cooked with it.

It came as a great surprise to me, then, to learn that this idea is not based in fact. I learned during my studies on Victorian foods that the Victorians had as much a taste for alcohol as their European forebearers. Indeed, contemporary cookbooks show that Victorian cuisine mirrored European menus very closely.

"What happened?" one might ask.

Prohibition, mes amis.

While social historians like to focus on the failures of Prohibition (gangs, speakeasies, etc.), no one ever discusses its successes. Surely, its impact on American cuisine must be counted among its dubious successes. Recipes including alcohol disappeared from American kitchens overnight.

American cuisine has never been the same since.

[rareboy]

Our family pudding recipe is more Germanic and does include grated carrots.

We make the same recipe as my Grandmother made for 60 odd years and my mother after that.

We're having it along with my great Aunt Esther's Pumpkin pie that is baking in the over right now.

You whip the whites separately and fold them in....Light and beautiful with whipped cream.

[JohannBessler]

@Quasar:

I took your advice.

I hightailed it to the World Market, where for an hour or two, I lost myself in distant lands, in exotic places. I found many items of food I'd never tried before, including something called "Digestibles" from the UK, and something called "Happy Hippos" from Germany, along with some other stuff from Germany I didn't recognize--Weisswurst, Deutchslanders, Bockwurst, and some FItness Bread and rye bread that looked more like cakes than breads.

Oddly enough, the British island was meagre in its offerings. They removed the spotted dick but fortunately I was able to find other goodies from the UK.

[talbot57]

I still love Christmas Pudding, great when flamed with brandy and served with brandy butter. I remember when my Nan used to make them, they would be made in October.

Friend of mine from France took some home one Christmas. He did not like it, he thought it was like cake and served it cold. Yuk!

[JohannBessler]

^The plum pudding tasted completely different from what I'd expected.

It didn't taste of raisins at all, or suet. The taste that predominated was "spicy". Put another way, it tasted like a spice cake on steroids.

I am puzzled at the fact that the webmaster thought it was "gross". To me, it doesn't come anywhere near that designation.

[star-warrior]

I think it is more common to hear folks call 'plum pudding' 'christmas pudding' nowadays. Few folks make it, as it seems to be commercially available everywhere.

Here's a link that you might enjoy. 6 hours boiling in a cloth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/victorianchrist....shtml?page=50


Autolycus' mention of soggy white rim is explained by the cloth wrapping being 'floured' before boiling forming a seal against water during boiling.

When I was at school, the suet puddings we used to have most was the jam-roly-poly with custard. I quite liked them, as we never got puddings at home - my parents were far east asian immigrants

[teadrinker]

A candidate for 10 Most Disgusting British Foods:

http://www.lunch.com/jbeswick-Top_10...some-2732.html

Maybe it's my Australian upbringing, but I find almost all of those foods delicious (with the possible exception of Irn Bru). And of course I prefer Vegemite to Marmite.

I do like a good rich plum pudding, served hot with brandy butter or cream. And how can you not love the names of some of these venerable English dishes: spotted dick, toad in the hole, bubble and squeak, faggots in gravy, and the rest.

-T.

[JohannBessler]

^I think I could improve the taste of plum pudding with either a cream cheese frosting, or the creme anglaise that Victorian Englishmen used. Without it, the spices overwhelm the dish.

[JohannBessler]

Autolycus' mention of soggy white rim is explained by the cloth wrapping being 'floured' before boiling forming a seal against water during boiling.

When I was at school, the suet puddings we used to have most was the jam-roly-poly with custard. I quite liked them, as we never got puddings at home - my parents were far east asian immigrants

Thanks for the link, Starwarrior.

Is Jam-roly-poly the same dish that they call "dead man's arm"? I'd love to try it. I might look for a recipe.

[star-warrior]

Thanks for the link, Starwarrior.

Is Jam-roly-poly the same dish that they call "dead man's arm"? I'd love to try it. I might look for a recipe.

You're quite right. You can bake or steam the roly poly.

Other primary school puddings I recall, rhubarb crumble, semolina, rice pudding, jelly (=jello) and blancmange, trifle, spotted dick with custard, and sponge and custard,

In secondary school, our cooks made deserts with crusts like bakewell tart, chocolate flan, apple pie etc. All served with custard.

[JohannBessler]

^Hmm. I hadn't thought of pouring custard over the Spotted Dick, but it sounds good.

I'll have to take a look at the other desserts. I've only heard of one or two of them.

Apple pie is supposed to be quintessentially American. It will be interesting to find out how closely the two variations resemble each other.

[star-warrior]

FYI

Rhubarb crumble, stems of the rhubarb plant cut into two inch chunks and cooked with sugar to form a tart (sweet and sour) mush topped with a buttery/margarine flour and sugar crumb topping.

semolina, rice pudding, are milk based puddings. I think the rice pudding is baked with a hint of nutmeg.


Bakewell tart has a pastry case bottom, a layer of red jam/jelly, a thick layer of frangipane, optionally topped with almond slivers and baked said to originate from the town of Bakewell somewhere in England.

I used to love chocolate flan, it was like a cold set blancmange with a crust base.

jelly (=jello) and blancmange, I made blancmange in school Cookery class, it's basically boiled milk with sugar and a hint of colouring (pink) and thickened with cornstarch, left to go cold and set, then a gelatinous dollop it paired up with jell(y/o).


trifle, sponge fingers and fruit set in jelly/o on the bottom, a middle layer of set cold custard, topped with whipped cream.

[JohannBessler]

^Most of these have "culinary brothers" here on this side of the pond. Blancmange, for example, sounds very similar to our caramel custard (or "flan"), that in fact contains little caramel, but does contain all of the other ingredients of a blancmange with eggs added to it. This caramel custard differs somewhat from your custard (which sounds similar to "creme anglaise"), while at the same time being similar.

The "dead man's arm" sounds similar to our jelly roll, but I bet the British version tastes better because it sounds moister. It's also on my "bucket list".

The standout in that list seems to be the Bakewell tart. I don't think we have anything resembling that here in the States, so for that reason, I'm planning to try it.

We have rhubarb pie, not a rhubarb crumble, but frankly it sounds very similar. I personally love rhubarb pie, but strangely enough most Americans probably don't. We get our version from the Germans; much of the time, it also contains strawberries. I can eat a rhubarb pie all by myself. (embarrassed).

One thing I notice is that nutmeg as a spice really isn't all that popular here. One can find it in egg nog, and pumpkin pie, but right off hand I can't think of any other dish that features it as prominently as the plum pudding. I find it fascinating that we eat nutmeg only on holidays, in line with the British tradition of eating plum pudding on Christmas.

This experience with plum pudding has given me an idea for a new dessert. As far as I can tell, no one has thought of it before. Allow me to search for it on the internet, and if it looks good, I'll run the idea by you to see what you think.

Thank you for discussing this, Star-warrior. It's not every day that you meet someone who's willing to discuss food science.

[Benjoe]

I think almost everyone everyone in England has plum pudding at Christmas. I had to google it though because I thought wtf is plum pudding? Anyway it's called Christmas pudding here and yes everyone eats it. It's very tasty with cream and needs to be matured for at least a year to taste really good.

[quasar]

^The plum pudding tasted completely different from what I'd expected.

It didn't taste of raisins at all, or suet. The taste that predominated was "spicy". Put another way, it tasted like a spice cake on steroids.

I am puzzled at the fact that the webmaster thought it was "gross". To me, it doesn't come anywhere near that designation.

I'm so pleased you bought and tried it. I think that many other Americans would find it different to what they'd expect - this is why I was so confused by the earlier critique about it. I was thinking that it was describing something totally different to our Christmas pudding. I must admit that while it is normally served with either brandy cream or custard, we always have a rum sauce with ours.

[JohannBessler]

^That's my next step.

I'm going to buy some custard, and pour it over what's left of the pudding. I believe it will cut some of the spiciness.

[HoodedRat]

Every time I click on this thread, the phrase 'tally-ho' in the opening post reminds me of the battle cry cry of red-coated cunts on horseback hunting foxes with dogs for fun.

Supposedly outlawed in England nowadays, but when the lawmakers and judiciary are the cunts in question it's hardly surprising how so many of them still get away with it. Scum!

[JohannBessler]

lol^ !!

I don't have any idea where I got that "tally-ho", Hooded-Rat. It just popped into my conscious mind at the time.

Maybe I saw it in a movie somewhere.

[Benvolio]

I am planning a trip to England, next summer, mostly London and Oxford. I would be interested in any opinions of the best time to visit. Last time I went in August and it rained the entire time.

[quasar]

Sadly, with British weather there isn't really a guaranteed best time. In theory, late July - late September should be the better chance, but this year we had a couple of stunning weeks in April, then rain until the Olympics, and then rain gain. It really doesn't feel like we've had a summer this year!

[Keeland]

The ingredients for his great-grandma's recipe follow:

1 cup suet
1 cup raisins
1 cup currants

Grind together three times.

To the ground fruit and fat mixture, you add 1/2 c. molasses, 1 c. brown sugar, 1 1/2 cups sour milk, 2 1/2 c. flour, 1 tsp. salt, 1 1/2 tsp. soda, 1 tsp. baking powder, 1 tsp. nutmeg, and 1 tsp. cloves.

Would there be enough differences between original imperial and perhaps original German measurements, and U.S. measurements (including cups) that the result might taste different than in ye olde days, if not horrible?

I'd rather have plum pudding made with 10 imperial gallons of rum than 10 U.S. gallons of rum.

Me auld mum would make plum pudding. I hadn't tasted it in decades until this Christmas when a package produced for microwave ovens was purchased by my host at Safeway as an impulse buy.

I was extremely reluctant to even taste it (microwaved?!) but was astonished. It was delicious and tasted as I remembered it — even the white sauce preparation the package included. It was a visitation by the ghost of Christmas past.

[JohannBessler]

^You're an Englishman, Keeland?

I knew there was something I liked about you.

[JohannBessler]

@Star-Warrior:

I did the research.

It took so long because I had to boot up under a different distro. (For some reason, Firefox on Ubuntu doesn't handle Javascript well, so certain sites won't load.)

The idea I'd had in mind involves melding two cultures together, really. We have a dessert that, to my understanding, didn't translate to the other side of the pond--in the same way as plum pudding didn't translate to this side of the pond. We call that dessert a "brownie". It's something like a chocolate cake, but it's denser and richer. (These brownies were immortalized in the movie The Stepford Wives, where the character played by the Englishwoman muses,"I'll just DIE if I don't get this recipe.")

How useful would it be to know if a brownie recipe could be merged with a plum pudding recipe? You'd have brownies so rich, and so delectable, that you may have created a masterpiece.

As far as I'm able to discern on the Internet, no one yet has thought of the idea. I'd certainly like to try.

[Keeland]

^You're an Englishman, Keeland?

Och, nae. Aam nae.

[mitchymo]

Never tried plum pudding.

To be honest, with the exception of one tasty mince pie, if that, there aint no room in my stomach for pudding of any kind after eating xmas dinner.

[JohannBessler]

Och, nae. Aam nae.

A Scotsman?

That can be interesting, too. I want to try Camp Coffee.

[Keeland]

Sorry, Johann, I had to look up camp coffee. Too many generations of degenerate central heating.

[star-warrior]

The idea I'd had in mind involves melding two cultures together, really. We have a dessert that, to my understanding, didn't translate to the other side of the pond--in the same way as plum pudding didn't translate to this side of the pond. We call that dessert a "brownie". It's something like a chocolate cake, but it's denser and richer. (These brownies were immortalized in the movie The Stepford Wives, where the character played by the Englishwoman muses,"I'll just DIE if I don't get this recipe.")

How useful would it be to know if a brownie recipe could be merged with a plum pudding recipe? You'd have brownies so rich, and so delectable, that you may have created a masterpiece.

As far as I'm able to discern on the Internet, no one yet has thought of the idea. I'd certainly like to try.

As the plum pud is boiled/steamed and brownies are baked, you seem to hit a snag, unless you use some pre-cooked ingredient. I suggest layering. Half a Brownie batter amount on the bottom, slices of plum pudding arranged over it, remaining half of brownie batter on top then baked as you would do normally, adjusting for extra depth so the brownie batter is cooked.


Talking of chococolate cake, I made a chocolate cake layered with red cherry conserve, stoned and halved canned black cherries, and sandwiched with double cream with a hint of Bailey's Irish cream for christmas. Looked similar to this, though, not as much oozing syrup as this pic

[star-warrior]

Sorry, Johann, I had to look up camp coffee. Too many generations of degenerate central heating.

I saw it on sale someplace, I thought it was cough syrup.

[White 4 Black]

I've never heard of this, nor never tasted one.