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  1. #51
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    He should have never gotten out of jail. That was his grandmother he killed with a hammer and they found a body in the burned out house, presumably his sister who went missing.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  2. #52
    loki81
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    I wonder to what extent repealing the 2nd Amendment would even stop criminals from getting guns.

    making drugs illegal certainly hasn't taken them off the streets.

  3. #53
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    it would take a long time Loki and would likely incite violence across the nation in the form of riots. People wont do that easily. I think the only method that could really work would be a register requirement and then extremely stiff fines for failing to report stolen weapons or failure to register.

    Although me a insanely long SCOTUS decisions don't get along, (so in other words I havent actually read a decision) I think the SCOTUS has already ruled that the second amendment cannot be infringed by placing undue restrictions or requirements upon ownership. SO it would require an amendment to accomplish that register law. That and the conspiracy nuts claim that if the government KNOWS about your guns then they can somehow get you. Let me tell you all right now if this government wants you then they will get you no matter what your packing. so that is a long lost battle people keep in their heads.

    So I simply don't know. I think the long and the short of it is we will see a ineffective "assault looking" weapons ban and a restriction on number of magazines. Neither of which is very effective. Neither of which will result in changing behavior.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  4. #54
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    So you laugh at murdered people. Have you stopped laughing about the 20 dead children?

    Sick. Sick. Sick.
    Not just laugh. Gloat, and giggle maniacally. I have pictures of the kids and throw darts at them. I also eat dog and abort white babies.


    Maybe it's time I revealed myself... I AM ACTUALLY BARACK OBAMA!!!!

    There, it's out!
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  5. #55
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    I heard today that there will be another gun show this coming weekend. That will make 3 in a row. By the time any restrictions will be made, all of the assault weapons will be sold out.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  6. #56
    mitchymo
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    This sort of thing is on the border between crime and terrorism. Sadly, as Israel has learned, you can't stop terrorism, you can only live with it.

    Do we know if the house was torched to get the firefighters there?
    This wouldn't be unusual.

    We had two female police officers shot dead recently over here, after a false 999 (911) call.
    So your point about living with terrorism is certainly true, no matter how tough the gun restrictions are, you can't achieve the impossible. The best you can do, and what should be done, is to try and make the attacks improbable. The tougher the restrictions, the more improbable the attacks become.

  7. #57
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I heard today that there will be another gun show this coming weekend. That will make 3 in a row. By the time any restrictions will be made, all of the assault weapons will be sold out.
    It's hard to find a weekend when there's not a gun show in the US -- it's called freedom of association.

    And since "assault weapons" means "guns I think look scary", it's meaningless to claim they'll be sold out.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #58
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Although me a insanely long SCOTUS decisions don't get along, (so in other words I havent actually read a decision) I think the SCOTUS has already ruled that the second amendment cannot be infringed by placing undue restrictions or requirements upon ownership. SO it would require an amendment to accomplish that register law. That and the conspiracy nuts claim that if the government KNOWS about your guns then they can somehow get you. Let me tell you all right now if this government wants you then they will get you no matter what your packing. so that is a long lost battle people keep in their heads.

    So I simply don't know. I think the long and the short of it is we will see a ineffective "assault looking" weapons ban and a restriction on number of magazines. Neither of which is very effective. Neither of which will result in changing behavior.
    Once SCOTUS acknowledged in Heller that the Second is an individual right, all the old statements about individual rights apply.

    As for registration, it doesn't take a conspiracy theory freak to see the danger: if the government wants to take away all firearms, it first has to know where they are.

    The sad thing about any legislation we'll get, besides that it will cost something and result in next to nothing, is that I doubt Congress is going to do anything about the mental health situation, which continues to get worse -- something like a thousand beds a year have been lost while Obama's been in, and that's going to get worse if we do the "fiscal cliff" thing.

    This is a superb lesson in why not to go heavy in debt: you lose flexibility.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #59
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    This wouldn't be unusual.

    We had two female police officers shot dead recently over here, after a false 999 (911) call.
    So your point about living with terrorism is certainly true, no matter how tough the gun restrictions are, you can't achieve the impossible. The best you can do, and what should be done, is to try and make the attacks improbable. The tougher the restrictions, the more improbable the attacks become.
    I'd personally rather start somewhere we know will have results: end the stupid so-called "war on drugs" and cut violent crime by four-fifths. Presumably that means people shooting and killing other people will drop by two-fifths.

    Use half the saved money for the mental health system. Let the other half reduce the deficit.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #60
    mitchymo
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'd personally rather start somewhere we know will have results: end the stupid so-called "war on drugs" and cut violent crime by four-fifths. Presumably that means people shooting and killing other people will drop by two-fifths.
    The response from me you can expect, is that such a plan would effectively target crime associated gun deaths, and whilst that is deserving of attention also, it won't likely impact on spree killings. Furthermore, if you say "start somewhere 'we' know will have results", clearly you're excluding foreign methods as THE most proven to work.

  11. #61
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The response from me you can expect, is that such a plan would effectively target crime associated gun deaths, and whilst that is deserving of attention also, it won't likely impact on spree killings. Furthermore, if you say "start somewhere 'we' know will have results", clearly you're excluding foreign methods as THE most proven to work.
    Foreign countries could get the same result if they followed suit, although their versions of prohibition don't seem to generate quite as much violent crime as America's.

    But the investment of half the saved money from ending the "war on drugs" should have some impact on spree killings via the mental health spending. And even if we learn after ten years that the mental health spending hasn't made much of a dent if those, we'll at least have treated millions of people more humanely.

    As it is, I've set forth ways for dealing with spree shootings, though adapted to school ones, and seemingly no one is actually interested in anything more than ideological posturing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #62
    mitchymo
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    As it is, I've set forth ways for dealing with spree shootings, though adapted to school ones, and seemingly no one is actually interested in anything more than ideological posturing.
    I've not read these suggestions, can you summarise for my benefit.

    And can i ask how the mental health system works there. Is it state by state management with federal funding or....?

  13. #63
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Mental health in the US is a mockery of an assistance program. Like all other health care based items in the US you get what you can pay for in help. SO if you have substantial wealth you get to be healthy. If you are poor you get to die. Same thing goes for mental crisis assistance.

    Kuli will have to enlighten you on different ideas he has. Which is likely how the country will go in different areas. There will be no gun ban.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  14. #64
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Foreign countries could get the same result if they followed suit, although their versions of prohibition don't seem to generate quite as much violent crime as America's.
    In Australia, our gun buy-back programme and the subsequent gun restrictions resulted almost instantly in a 50% drop in gun deaths. Overall crime has also dropped. Have you considered that it is the prevalence of guns COMBINED with the prohibition of drugs that enables the more violent crime you mention?

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    There will be no gun ban.
    No argument there. Absolutely nothing in the US will change as a result of Sandy Hook. Except a short surge in firearm purchases, as we're seeing now.

  16. #66

    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    In Australia, our gun buy-back programme and the subsequent gun restrictions resulted almost instantly in a 50% drop in gun deaths. Overall crime has also dropped. Have you considered that it is the prevalence of guns COMBINED with the prohibition of drugs that enables the more violent crime you mention?
    Yep, that's what we need --- ban all guns and legalize all drugs.

  17. #67
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    short version of my proposals:

    1. on the "last resort" end, arm willing teachers; all information concerning who is armed and who isn't, at which schools, is confidential, so would-be shooters can't know ahead of time if they'll manage their 'blaze of gory' or get taken out promptly

    2. use Congress Art I Sec 8 authority to discipline and organize the militia to specify that while magazines of over twenty rounds capacity may be owned, they are to be stored and used only at a gun club, shooting range, or other such facility, except for competition events

    3. authorize all colleges and other public institutions to report individuals deemed dangerous, and require that reporting if federal funds are being received, to the NICS system so a flag will prevent the person from buying firearms

    4. open the NICS system to all sellers, whether dealers or not

    5. begin federal funding for mental health care aimed at restoring levels to whatever maximum a given locale had in the last thirty years, plus adding ten thousand beds in "casual care" facilities, to which the mentally ill can be diverted instead of sent to jail, and where people feeling destructive can drop in for refuge



    As an addendum to #1, I'd like a bill to include that the NRA is the designated training organization, something for which it will receive only Congressional thanks -- no funds -- and that teachers may be charged no more than $10 per course. It would never fly, but I'd love to see the faces of LaPierre and his ilk if they got required to actually help instead of grandstand.

    Regarding #2, there's a whole discourse on the militia concept integral to the Second Amendment involved; suffice it to say that under that system, militias (and individuals) could have weapons considered not appropriate for common (everyday) use, but they had to be stored at an arsenal. We don't have arsenals, but gun clubs can take their place.

    For #5, I know there's no chance Congress will do that, but if they don't, the rest is pointless.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #68
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    In Australia, our gun buy-back programme and the subsequent gun restrictions resulted almost instantly in a 50% drop in gun deaths. Overall crime has also dropped. Have you considered that it is the prevalence of guns COMBINED with the prohibition of drugs that enables the more violent crime you mention?
    Try that in the US and you'll get a brief, horrifying surge in gun violence by people shooting the cops who come after their guns, followed by cops refusing to go after any more guns, followed by a black market in home-made firearms, followed by a return to the gang warfare of Prohibition as those who peddle drugs take over those who make guns.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #69
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Tracing the guns he used might be very hard to do..as the NRA all but shut down the ATF,the agency responsible for finding out these things.

  20. #70
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Tracing the guns he used might be very hard to do..as the NRA all but shut down the ATF,the agency responsible for finding out these things.
    Citation, please. Lat I knew, the ATF was still growing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #71
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Try that in the US and you'll get a brief, horrifying surge in gun violence by people shooting the cops who come after their guns, followed by cops refusing to go after any more guns, followed by a black market in home-made firearms, followed by a return to the gang warfare of Prohibition as those who peddle drugs take over those who make guns.
    I ran across this today and thought it interesting Gun Restrictions have Always Bred Defiance, Black Markets. If the survey is correct, most of the 'disarmed' countries like Australia never actually disarmed, instead most gun owners simply didn't report their guns and gun distribution went underground. So if Australia is still 80 - 90% as heavily armed as it was before the ban, how is the reduction in gun violence accounted for? One idea that occurs to me is that gun owners are more reluctant to use guns in acts of violence due to the possibility of getting an 'illegal' firearm charge added to anything else they are doing.

    So is it possible the better answer is not excessively restrictive gun control but increasingly restrictive penalties for improper use of a firearm?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  22. #72
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I ran across this today and thought it interesting Gun Restrictions have Always Bred Defiance, Black Markets. If the survey is correct, most of the 'disarmed' countries like Australia never actually disarmed, instead most gun owners simply didn't report their guns and gun distribution went underground. So if Australia is still 80 - 90% as heavily armed as it was before the ban, how is the reduction in gun violence accounted for? One idea that occurs to me is that gun owners are more reluctant to use guns in acts of violence due to the possibility of getting an 'illegal' firearm charge added to anything else they are doing.

    So is it possible the better answer is not excessively restrictive gun control but increasingly restrictive penalties for improper use of a firearm?
    Why am I not surprised?

    So, by imposing restrictions on one type of product, governments have driven people to the black market where all forbidden products and services are available, and likely increased the wealth and power of active sellers in that market.

    If you were trying to enrich and empower the folks who thrive beyond the reaches of polite society, you couldn’t come up with a better plan.
    (emphasis added)


    I note that the article showed clearly that banning guns just can't be done because people will make their own -- though even I dodn't expect that they could be turned out over a campfire!


    And yes, one answer is harsher penalties for misusing a firearm. The NRA-backed "Project Exile" has met with serious success where it has been tried, for the simple reason that it makes clear to criminals that while robbery may get you two years with possibility of good time and parole, doing it with a firearm will get those same two years plus two that come with no path for reduction; that while assault may get you two to five years, assault when you have a firearm will get you five years that can't be reduced in any way. When trespassing can get you three months to a year, but trespassing while in possession of a firearm adds a year that isn't subject to being made shorter, the message gets across: leave the guns alone.


    Unfortunately, none of that will do anything to deal with nut cases who kill relatives with hammers and burn down their own houses to get the firemen to come so he can shoot them.

    But according to that article -- not much can.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #73
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Interesting observation:

    Robert Heinlein actually predicted this back in the fifties, and wrote some into science fiction stories. He had people ambush cops, blow up buildings with vehicles full of explosives, and even knock down buildings by flying planes into them. In terms of mass shootings, it's the sort of thing he guaranteed to occur as society became more impersonal and people's lives more fragmented, as inevitably the edges of the bell curve crept into domains individuals in earlier societies would never have contemplated because people were more connected. And he couldn't think of a way to deal with it, either.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  24. #74
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Why am I not surprised?



    (emphasis added)


    I note that the article showed clearly that banning guns just can't be done because people will make their own -- though even I dodn't expect that they could be turned out over a campfire!
    Are the plans and requirements for making AK-47's really that readily and easily duplicated? I sort of wondered why they are most prevalent military weapon in most of the third world, I always thought it was because Russia made a lot of them and gave them out like candy. If any garage workshop can crank them out, there no hope of eliminating them.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  25. #75
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I sort of wondered why they are most prevalent military weapon in most of the third world, I always thought it was because Russia made a lot of them and gave them out like candy.
    http://wn.com/1top_combat_rifles_mil...el_ak-47_rifle

  26. #76
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Are the plans and requirements for making AK-47's really that readily and easily duplicated? I sort of wondered why they are most prevalent military weapon in most of the third world, I always thought it was because Russia made a lot of them and gave them out like candy. If any garage workshop can crank them out, there no hope of eliminating them.
    My buddy in Indiana turned one out in his farm blacksmith shop, using scrap metal, just to show it could be done. Then he melted it down and forged it into hunting knives, which he sells.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  27. #77
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    The glee that the fat guy talks about the AK-47 is pretty amusing. Something tells me he sleeps with a weapon in his cradled arms.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The glee that the fat guy talks about the AK-47 is pretty amusing. Something tells me he sleeps with a weapon in his cradled arms.
    I wouldn't call it "glee". I just saw the same enthusiasm as from a professional cook this summer who was camping by the coast, and was very enthusiastic about the chance to cook with clams directly out of the sand. It's the same as any hobbyist discussing a particular highlight of his/her area of interest.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Regarding #2, there's a whole discourse on the militia concept integral to the Second Amendment involved; suffice it to say that under that system, militias (and individuals) could have weapons considered not appropriate for common (everyday) use, but they had to be stored at an arsenal. We don't have arsenals, but gun clubs can take their place.
    This is the item that seems most productive to me. It involves locking away the most dangerous weapons, the next best thing to not having them.

    I'd be very concerned about giving teachers the right to carry arms. They may be responsible adults, but not ALL teachers are good teachers. There is the threat then created that bad teachers are able to abuse their right to carry, either by using it as a means of disciplining kids, which is offensive, or even worse, should any such teacher be a peodophile, coerce their victims into submission where they might otherwise resist.

    In short, all the proposals that can be made, are made with the key factor being left unaddressed, and that's the proliferation of arms.
    You can create proposals to address safety in schools, and others to combat mental illness, but what about people who just snap? What about people who kill themselves in a moment of darkness, a moment that a few hours could see the darkness lift? What about gang violence?
    You can create various proposals and spend billions of dollars addressing various issues to try and reduce gun related violence, raising taxes to address a problem that exists in its severity due to proliferation first and foremost. Common sense would tell you that the problem can be adequately approached, impacting ALL scenarios, by removing guns from the equation, since the guns are the one constant from scenario to scenario.

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I wouldn't call it "glee". I just saw the same enthusiasm as from a professional cook this summer who was camping by the coast, and was very enthusiastic about the chance to cook with clams directly out of the sand. It's the same as any hobbyist discussing a particular highlight of his/her area of interest.
    Sadly the comparison lacks effect for me. No one has died of Clams... he speaks of the glory of killing... listen to his voice when he exclaims : "You know when you pull that trigger you have thirty rounds of rock and roll" ... he is delighted at the prospect... it is odd to be so excited over the idea of using a weapon of war unless you are actually headed into battle. Then that sort of grim humor and dark thoughts are almost necessary. His fat carcass is sitting on a television set filming a show about combat rifles. That would be the same as me giving a tour of my ballistic missile submarine and exclaiming that the " missiles that can go into these tubes can explode 24 different sites with one launch, you know when you push the launch button your the destroyer of worlds" while bearing a shit eating grin like it is exciting.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's hard to find a weekend when there's not a gun show in the US -- it's called freedom of association.

    And since "assault weapons" means "guns I think look scary", it's meaningless to claim they'll be sold out.
    Sorry, I'm just saying this because these gun shows don't happen that close together, around here. There may be one and a month or two another one.
    The sold out thingy was just to add more to the post!






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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    This is the item that seems most productive to me. It involves locking away the most dangerous weapons, the next best thing to not having them.

    I'd be very concerned about giving teachers the right to carry arms. They may be responsible adults, but not ALL teachers are good teachers. There is the threat then created that bad teachers are able to abuse their right to carry, either by using it as a means of disciplining kids, which is offensive, or even worse, should any such teacher be a peodophile, coerce their victims into submission where they might otherwise resist.

    In short, all the proposals that can be made, are made with the key factor being left unaddressed, and that's the proliferation of arms.
    You can create proposals to address safety in schools, and others to combat mental illness, but what about people who just snap? What about people who kill themselves in a moment of darkness, a moment that a few hours could see the darkness lift? What about gang violence?
    You can create various proposals and spend billions of dollars addressing various issues to try and reduce gun related violence, raising taxes to address a problem that exists in its severity due to proliferation first and foremost. Common sense would tell you that the problem can be adequately approached, impacting ALL scenarios, by removing guns from the equation, since the guns are the one constant from scenario to scenario.


    The details of a program of arming teachers would have to be carefully hashed out, but there's no reason there shouldn't be screening if it's an official program. The first step obviously would be to call for volunteers, then evaluate to determine which ones to send to the NRA for free training. The NRA instructors are generally very good at rating people, and they could choose the best two-thirds from initial training to go on to tactical training.


    My gut reaction to the question of gang violence would be to do what Caesar Augustus did with his gang problem: in each city, he picked the most civilized and disciplined of the gangs, then sent them "recruits" in the form of hardened legionnaires, and wiped out the other gangs. Prisoners got hauled off to join the legions, and selected survivors became part of the city watch.


    More rationally, end the bloody misnamed "war on drugs". It's illegal substances that fuel the gangs, just as during Prohibition. People are starting to wake up, but I suspect that our tax dollars are going to subsidize the deaths of at least another hundred thousand Americans before our politicians wise up.

    BTW, ending that -- use half the money saved for that mental health program. Druggies are in need of that, too.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Sadly the comparison lacks effect for me. No one has died of Clams... he speaks of the glory of killing... listen to his voice when he exclaims : "You know when you pull that trigger you have thirty rounds of rock and roll" ... he is delighted at the prospect... it is odd to be so excited over the idea of using a weapon of war unless you are actually headed into battle. Then that sort of grim humor and dark thoughts are almost necessary. His fat carcass is sitting on a television set filming a show about combat rifles. That would be the same as me giving a tour of my ballistic missile submarine and exclaiming that the " missiles that can go into these tubes can explode 24 different sites with one launch, you know when you push the launch button your the destroyer of worlds" while bearing a shit eating grin like it is exciting.
    Sorry, it doesn't require "heading into battle". I know people who are into shooting because they admire the beauty of the mechanism; who enjoy shooting the way golfers enjoy golf -- as a ballistic sport. When talking about the performance of a particular firearm, they exude the same enthusiasm a fan of electric model trains might over a new engine.

    The thought of death doesn't even enter into it, any more than it would if two truckers were thrilling over the performance of a truck they really want.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Why do you keep going on about arming teachers? It's ludicrous and the teachers themselves would never have it, because they know how much stress goes into teaching. And just because you will then say it makes them uncaring of their students' safety, won't change a thing. I know that in gun nut world everyone loves having and knowing how to use a gun, but in our reality people generally aren't cool with bringing extra violence in the work place. And unless someone passed a LAW that FORCED teachers to carry guns, I promise you most of them will decline. And what then?
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    This is the item that seems most productive to me. It involves locking away the most dangerous weapons, the next best thing to not having them.

    I'd be very concerned about giving teachers the right to carry arms. They may be responsible adults, but not ALL teachers are good teachers. There is the threat then created that bad teachers are able to abuse their right to carry, either by using it as a means of disciplining kids, which is offensive, or even worse, should any such teacher be a peodophile, coerce their victims into submission where they might otherwise resist.

    In short, all the proposals that can be made, are made with the key factor being left unaddressed, and that's the proliferation of arms.
    You can create proposals to address safety in schools, and others to combat mental illness, but what about people who just snap? What about people who kill themselves in a moment of darkness, a moment that a few hours could see the darkness lift? What about gang violence?
    You can create various proposals and spend billions of dollars addressing various issues to try and reduce gun related violence, raising taxes to address a problem that exists in its severity due to proliferation first and foremost. Common sense would tell you that the problem can be adequately approached, impacting ALL scenarios, by removing guns from the equation, since the guns are the one constant from scenario to scenario.
    It's the 9/11 plane hijacking predicament, imho. After 9/11 there was all this talk about pilots carrying guns on planes. And the concern would be alright how long before an incident happens and a gunshot rips a hole open in the pressurized cabin... possibly killing everyone anyway.

    With teachers carrying guns or keeping guns near enough at hand that they could deal with a spontaneous public shooting spree incident, then how long before said spree happens either because a teacher went ballistic or a kid got into the teacher's guns?

    We live in a country where teachers have been arrested for sleeping with grade school aged students. These are the people we're proposing to arm across the education field?

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It's the 9/11 plane hijacking predicament, imho. After 9/11 there was all this talk about pilots carrying guns on planes. And the concern would be alright how long before an incident happens and a gunshot rips a hole open in the pressurized cabin... possibly killing everyone anyway.
    Both Boeing and FAA people debunked that possibility. The only firearm that could possibly bring about a decompression bad enough to risk lives would be a mini-gun -- no ordinary combat weapon is such a danger even if the shooter tried.

    Besides that, handguns can be loaded with ammunition quite able to stop a human threat but not damage the aircraft skin.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    With teachers carrying guns or keeping guns near enough at hand that they could deal with a spontaneous public shooting spree incident, then how long before said spree happens either because a teacher went ballistic or a kid got into the teacher's guns?
    Probably a century. Any teacher worth anything calls for a sub when feeling that unsettled.

    Are you expecting students to beat up a teacher and take a gun?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Both Boeing and FAA people debunked that possibility. The only firearm that could possibly bring about a decompression bad enough to risk lives would be a mini-gun -- no ordinary combat weapon is such a danger even if the shooter tried.

    Besides that, handguns can be loaded with ammunition quite able to stop a human threat but not damage the aircraft skin.



    Probably a century. Any teacher worth anything calls for a sub when feeling that unsettled.

    Are you expecting students to beat up a teacher and take a gun?
    So basically, Kul, as with everything you've said since the gun discussions started-- your solution relies entirely upon an illogical presumption that everyone will behave correctly.

    Which if we could presume that we wouldn't be having any of these discussions in the first place.

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So basically, Kul, as with everything you've said since the gun discussions started-- your solution relies entirely upon an illogical presumption that everyone will behave correctly.

    Which if we could presume that we wouldn't be having any of these discussions in the first place.
    How many schoolteachers have been convicted for assaulting their students?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    How many schoolteachers have been convicted for assaulting their students?
    That's not an answer, and you know he's right anyway. You come from an assumption that everyone is/will be acting responsible, clear-headed, and professionally trained when it comes to guns.

    Most people are not responsible, clear-headed and professionally trained in ANYTHING, let alone when it comes to a tool that allows all the little people to feel like big men.

    Forget we're talking about guns, and tell me you disagree with the bolded part.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    How many schoolteachers have been convicted for assaulting their students?
    The number is probably directly proportionate to the number of teachers currently armed in the classroom.

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post

    Most people are not responsible, clear-headed and professionally trained in ANYTHING,

    tell me you disagree with the bolded part.
    I disagree most people I associate with professionally, and personally are all well trained in some valuable technique or skill. Or I wouldn't know them. And while I would give many folks a down arrow for civic involvement and knowledge I look around at America and realize this isn't possible IF the majority are dunderheads simply floating through life. Are there plenty of people that are irritating and have views you disagree with? Sure. However, I would wager even those with the most repulsive views who post here have some sort of skill they bring to the world.
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    How many schoolteachers have been convicted for assaulting their students?
    And for the record, here's the first I found:

    In February 2010 a professor opened fire 50 minutes into at a Biological Sciences Department faculty meeting at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, killing three colleagues and wounding three others.

    A concession: he killed colleagues, not students. I think this is one of the great dangers of arms in the workplace. A workplace argument, criticism or dismissal can have disastrous consequences when lethal weapons are at hand. A significant number of US mass shootings are the result of workplace disagreements.
    Last edited by andysayshi; December 28th, 2012 at 04:32 AM.

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I disagree most people I associate with professionally, and personally are all well trained in some valuable technique or skill. Or I wouldn't know them. And while I would give many folks a down arrow for civic involvement and knowledge I look around at America and realize this isn't possible IF the majority are dunderheads simply floating through life. Are there plenty of people that are irritating and have views you disagree with? Sure. However, I would wager even those with the most repulsive views who post here have some sort of skill they bring to the world.
    In my life I've discovered that the zone I inhabit - in real life and online - is unimaginably small compared to the big world of inadequacy that exists outside. And I don't mean those people are bad or malicious or anything of the sort. But the incompetent and ignorant, and downright stupid are always a majority, and even though that makes me sound like a horrible elitist, I can't change that opinion. I like people but I'm not blind.
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    In my life I've discovered that the zone I inhabit - in real life and online - is unimaginably small compared to the big world of inadequacy that exists outside. And I don't mean those people are bad or malicious or anything of the sort. But the incompetent and ignorant, and downright stupid are always a majority, and even though that makes me sound like a horrible elitist, I can't change that opinion. I like people but I'm not blind.
    I understand and have felt the same way. As I have aged I have found that there are many things in life that I would much rather another person do. Uniquely I have found some of those task people I would normally consider ignorant or lacking excel at because they relish doing something to which they have a talent.

    So I suppose I have found it easier to identify the worth and employ it over time versus simply disregarding it.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  45. #95

    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    In my life I've discovered that the zone I inhabit - in real life and online - is unimaginably small compared to the big world of inadequacy that exists outside. And I don't mean those people are bad or malicious or anything of the sort. But the incompetent and ignorant, and downright stupid are always a majority, and even though that makes me sound like a horrible elitist, I can't change that opinion. I like people but I'm not blind.
    Yes, you do sound like an elitist. I hope that you never feel the need to buy a gun.

  46. #96
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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    My gut reaction to the question of gang violence would be to do what Caesar Augustus did with his gang problem: in each city, he picked the most civilized and disciplined of the gangs, then sent them "recruits" in the form of hardened legionnaires, and wiped out the other gangs. Prisoners got hauled off to join the legions, and selected survivors became part of the city watch.
    A person who judges the value of other human lives, as being any less than their own, are the ones who should be most disarmed.

    Your gut reaction prompts one in me, that you lack humanity.

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I understand and have felt the same way. As I have aged I have found that there are many things in life that I would much rather another person do. Uniquely I have found some of those task people I would normally consider ignorant or lacking excel at because they relish doing something to which they have a talent.

    So I suppose I have found it easier to identify the worth and employ it over time versus simply disregarding it.
    Do you trust your waiter to fly your commercial airliner? Or your theater usher to be your EMT? Or your mailman to ensure your house doesn't have gas leaks, or your pasta chef to do your dental work?

    Thinking back on all of the teachers I had, handing them guns and saying "okay there ya go, now no worries about school shootings" is equivalent to any of that. And if we were to mandate it as the official solution to school shootings it would be exactly the kind of government trampling over individual rights Kul would rail against in any other topic whatsoever that his logic was intact on.

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    That's not an answer, and you know he's right anyway. You come from an assumption that everyone is/will be acting responsible, clear-headed, and professionally trained when it comes to guns.

    Most people are not responsible, clear-headed and professionally trained in ANYTHING, let alone when it comes to a tool that allows all the little people to feel like big men.

    Forget we're talking about guns, and tell me you disagree with the bolded part.
    So you dodge.

    If no teachers have ever been arrested for going on a rampage and physically assaulting their students, then we may reasonably assume that having a gun in possession isn't suddenly to make the situation different. The entire ant- case rests on the assumption that suddenly an awful lot of teachers are going to go wacko for no other fact than that they have started carrying a firearm. That's the same fallacious argument that's been made over and over by liberals every time a new "shall issue" concealed carry law is passed -- and it's never happened. Georgia didn't turn into a Hollywood "Wild West", nor did Alabama, nor did Montana, nor did Oregon, nor Virginia, so presuming that all of a sudden teachers are going to lose professional focus and become more irresponsible and get infected with some virus that makes them into ravaging beasts is beyond ludicrous.

    I come from the assumption that people are what they are, and will almost certainly remain so. That tells me that if any portion of the population can be trusted with a firearm in case of the need to defend the lives of the children in their care, it's teachers.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    And for the record, here's the first I found:

    In February 2010 a professor opened fire 50 minutes into at a Biological Sciences Department faculty meeting at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, killing three colleagues and wounding three others.

    A concession: he killed colleagues, not students. I think this is one of the great dangers of arms in the workplace. A workplace argument, criticism or dismissal can have disastrous consequences when lethal weapons are at hand. A significant number of US mass shootings are the result of workplace disagreements.
    I have the solution!















    Eliminate workplaces.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: 4 firefighters shot, 2 dead, after responding to blaze

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    A person who judges the value of other human lives, as being any less than their own, are the ones who should be most disarmed.

    Your gut reaction prompts one in me, that you lack humanity.
    Are you serious?

    The emperor Augustus agreed with you: he got rid of those who judged the value of their lives as greater than those of others. He did his job to protect his people.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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