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  1. #51

    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    in the US, at least, talking about repealing the 2nd Amendment instead of regulations seems akin to advocating abstinence-only education instead of condoms.
    loki, you're being too sensible man.

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    . Government interferes, it.
    But it isn't supposed to do so. Goverment has only three legitimate functions:

    1. Provide a standing army to protect us from without;
    2. Provide a police force to protect us from each other;
    3. Provide a system of courts so that we may seek peaceful redress with each other.

    Period.

    It's time we restored one of those original US flags - the ones with the rattlesnake and the logo "Don't Tread on Me"

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Yeah, I disagree
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  4. #54

    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook


  5. #55
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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    legalizing gay marriage is largely a state issue that wouldn't require a constitutional amendment... a completely different beast than trying to repeal the 2nd Amendment (and presumably repealing the 4th Amendment if you want cops breaking down doors to get all existing guns off the streets)

    we might need that fence on the Mexican border built too. and probably another one up north.
    That fence would be to the great benefit of Canada; the gun problem is a one-way problem, for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    I like the idea of a gun buyback, but the fact remains that there are legions of people who will absolutely not, under no circumstances, surrender their guns. and I'm not sure we've reached the point where we want police breaking down doors and confiscating legally-purchased guns against the owners' will.
    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    for all the comparisons to slavery and the like, as if the 14th Amendment happened by good will and magic, bear in mind that it took the bloodiest war in US history to resolve that dispute.

    even after the Civil War, it took the Reconstruction Acts and Congress repealing Habeas Corpus to suspend the Supreme Court to get it ratified.
    I really do think the problem on your hands is so debilitating that if it requires all those measures once again, then it would be the lesser evil. There is something wrong with the mentality as to how people should relate to one another in daily live via the gun that is malignant in the same way it is malignant to think of keeping others as human property. It can't coexist in one country in tension with better values. And the death toll from the madness equals a civil-war-death-toll every 10 or 15 years anyway.

    If there is a steep price to be paid for a sane future, I don't know what else to say but that watching children die at Newtown must motivate people to escape their delusion and complacency about the right to unnecessary weaponry.

    To decide that whatever else the future might hold, it's just fine to be consistent with the principles and policies and constitutional doctrines that people considered okay on December 13, is a bitter snub to the memory of children who should have been sufficiently defended by mere virtue of waking up that morning and going to school under the peaceful sky.
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    And were the freedoms you gave up to achieve that goal worth it? I think not.
    I also know, from a lifelong friend whose lived their for 35 years, Oz is already pretty socialist, so it was
    probably an easier sell that it would be here in the US wher we still place some value on our freedoms
    Haha, oh Henry, you're just like my grumpy old grandpa at Christmas dinner. Hilarious.

    Here in Oz we enjoy true universal healthcare, great medical outcomes, great life expectancy (3 years better than the US), the lowest debt to GDP ratio in the OECD, low levels of crime, especially gun crime, rank Number 2 on the UN's "world's happiest country" index, have the world's best city according to many international surveys like this one from CNN Travel, and have four of the World's Most Liveable Cities (Melbourne is No 1) according to the Economist Intelligence Unit's Global Liveability Report..

    So comrade, despite your fantasies that we Australians are trapped in a Socialist dictatorship, slaving in the factories for our dear leaders, we're doing just fine, thanks.

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Obama responds to petitions:

    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Haha, oh Henry, you're just like my grumpy old grandpa at Christmas dinner. Hilarious.

    Here in Oz we enjoy true universal healthcare, great medical outcomes, great life expectancy (3 years better than the US), the lowest debt to GDP ratio in the OECD, low levels of crime, especially gun crime, rank Number 2 on the UN's "world's happiest country" index, have the world's best city according to many international surveys like this one from CNN Travel, and have four of the World's Most Liveable Cities (Melbourne is No 1) according to the Economist Intelligence Unit's Global Liveability Report..

    So comrade, despite your fantasies that we Australians are trapped in a Socialist dictatorship, slaving in the factories for our dear leaders, we're doing just fine, thanks.
    Gee, you sound more than a bit defensive tonight. Trouble in paradise? LOL

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Not at all, Henry. Just keeping the truth on the table.

    Right now I'm off to do the last of my Christmas shopping, then I'm heading down to the beach for a swim - it's absolutely perfect weather today. Not the Christmas you northerners are used to, I know, but we love it this way!

    Regardless of the mud we sling at one another around here, Henry, may I genuinely wish you and your loved ones a truly wonderful Christmas. Be of good cheer!

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    But it isn't supposed to do so. Goverment has only three legitimate functions:

    1. Provide a standing army to protect us from without;
    2. Provide a police force to protect us from each other;
    3. Provide a system of courts so that we may seek peaceful redress with each other.

    Period.

    It's time we restored one of those original US flags - the ones with the rattlesnake and the logo "Don't Tread on Me"
    Wow. So much for the claim that conservatives use logic and reason: any thinking person can see that your "three legitimate functions" are only one.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben1 View Post
    That was one of the lamest things I've ever seen in advocating something. "Demand a plan" -- what does that mean? Martial law would be a plan. Making everyone wear skin-tight clothes would be a plan. Forbidding the publishing of shooters' names would be a plan. Funding a hundred new mental health facilities would be a plan. Drilling everyone in America in martial arts would be a plan.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Wow. So much for the claim that conservatives use logic and reason: any thinking person can see that your "three legitimate functions" are only one.
    Three distinctly different functions, none of which could be effectively done by individuals or groups.
    If citizens desire anything else (fire protection etc) they have the ability to request it and the obligation to pay for it.

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    i'm not sure of the statistics , how many of your mass shootings are by legal weapons and how many are by illegal weapons ?
    if every one in the united states who owned legal fire arms decided they didn't really need them anymore and gave to the government freely to be destroyed without asking for compensation , would it solve your problems ?
    How many illegal weapons would still in circulation ?
    we had most of our legal weapons taken away about 16 years ago , i don't think it made a difference !

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That was one of the lamest things I've ever seen in advocating something. "Demand a plan" -- what does that mean? Martial law would be a plan. Making everyone wear skin-tight clothes would be a plan. Forbidding the publishing of shooters' names would be a plan. Funding a hundred new mental health facilities would be a plan. Drilling everyone in America in martial arts would be a plan.
    I understand your criticism. But I think this is a "gut reaction" piece, not a substantive statement or recommendation.

    Let's be honest: the US has the most reprehensible gun death record in the industrialised world, by a very large margin. I believe it is the right (and perhaps the duty) of US citizens to demand answers, and potential changes. There is nothing unique about the US culture that justifies 30,000 gun deaths per year.

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by iwantbig View Post
    we had most of our legal weapons taken away about 16 years ago , i don't think it made a difference !
    Actually, it halved the rate of gun-related deaths, and to date has eliminated mass shootings. A massive difference, in fact.

  16. #66
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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    I wonder if Jews living in Germany in the 1930's/40's would agree.
    If every Jewish person had a gun in Nazi Germany they wouldn't have out muscled that powerful industrialized military machine from conducting that horrific atrocity, but maybe could have used it on themselves in a more humane way. Where the Jewish people did oppose and fight the Germans with guns, the conflicts were short and the result never favored success. Though I sure would have fought with a weapon had I had one. I can understand the reasoning and agree on the merit.
    If a very well trained and supplied US military ever turns on a segment of the US population as Germany did your assault rifle will do you no good, its silly to think it would. This is not 1774, and the militia wasn't how the US won the war with Great Britain. Nor the southern civilians in 1863 who were well armed throughout the region slow Sherman's US Army march and rape of the South

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    If you really study what was going on in Germany during that era, you'll learn that many Jews regarded themselves as good Germans and didn't believe that anything bad could or would happen to them. Many of them finally woke up after the events of Krystallnacht

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

    There's are reasons why we have the right to own and bear firearms and all of them are valid

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post
    If every Jewish person had a gun in Nazi Germany they wouldn't have out muscled that powerful industrialized military machine from conducting that horrific atrocity, but maybe could have used it on themselves in a more humane way. Where the Jewish people did oppose and fight the Germans with guns, the conflicts were short and the result never favored success. Though I sure would have fought with a weapon had I had one. I can understand the reasoning and agree on the merit.
    If a very well trained and supplied US military ever turns on a segment of the US population as Germany did your assault rifle will do you no good, its silly to think it would. This is not 1774, and the militia wasn't how the US won the war with Great Britain. Nor the southern civilians in 1863 who were well armed throughout the region slow Sherman's US Army march and rape of the South
    Better to go down fighting than to just lie down and submit.

    BTW, the militia is in fact how the Americans beat Great Britain: it provided a core who already knew how to use their weapons and had a basic grasp of discipline and tactics. Militia fighting as militia has mixed results, but Washington could turn militia into an army pretty darned fast.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Better to go down fighting than to just lie down and submit.

    BTW, the militia is in fact how the Americans beat Great Britain: it provided a core who already knew how to use their weapons and had a basic grasp of discipline and tactics. Militia fighting as militia has mixed results, but Washington could turn militia into an army pretty darned fast.
    Yep, starting at Bunker Hill and Concord.

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Yep, starting at Bunker Hill and Concord.
    I believe Breed's Hill was more important, though Lexington was more or less the trigger.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Better to go down fighting than to just lie down and submit.

    BTW, the militia is in fact how the Americans beat Great Britain: it provided a core who already knew how to use their weapons and had a basic grasp of discipline and tactics. Militia fighting as militia has mixed results, but Washington could turn militia into an army pretty darned fast.
    Point of fact - many Jews did NOT go down at all. They all would have in your fantasy gun land.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Point of fact - many Jews did NOT go down at all. They all would have in your fantasy gun land.
    Sure. That's why Schindler armed the Jews he rescued -- to make sure they died.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    That was after. When first Jews were rounded up, they stood NO fighting chance, and their resistance would have resulted in their instant death.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  24. #74

    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    This discussion is really spooky. Incredible, frightening.
    To connect the topic to the Holocaust is outrageous. You will take every argument to keep your weapons. You donīt want to protect the kids, you want to protect your guns. You donīt want a serious debate. Hidebound. Unteachable. Everybody knows, more guns - more violence. The time is over for Cowboys, guys. Take a lesson from Australia. But you donīt want to see that.
    I hope you will be happy with your guns - and more dead children, husbands, wives, suns, daughters, friends... Good night and good luck.

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Godwin's Law
    Check out my very own Body Hair Lovers and Photography Groups!

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    That`s true, corny. But they have to google it, our little cowboys.

  27. #77

    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Godwin's Law
    Yep. The discussion usually degrades into Springer Law also.

    Springer Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of someone being called a racist increases and finally takes over the discussion.


    A Blessed Christmas to Everyone.


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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Playing victim is ever so mature...

    Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka etc.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    That was after. When first Jews were rounded up, they stood NO fighting chance, and their resistance would have resulted in their instant death.
    As the JFPFO notes, it would have been better to have gone down fighting.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Godwin's Law
    Try telling that to the JFPFO.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    As the JFPFO notes, it would have been better to have gone down fighting.
    And as I noted down, that's bullshit. It was better to not go down at all and go on living. Which many of them managed to do, and wouldn't have if they had resisted. It's a simple fact and I don't see anyone trying to deny it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And as I noted down, that's bullshit. It was better to not go down at all and go on living. Which many of them managed to do, and wouldn't have if they had resisted. It's a simple fact and I don't see anyone trying to deny it.
    "Many"?

    Compared to the six million, just how "many" was it?


    Besides which, that's not your call to make -- you don't own them. If I'd rather go down taking some enemies with me rather than go to a concentration camp, that's my choice; it's not anyone else's to make for me.

    And that's the root of the problem: all this "gun control" talk tends to rest on the proposition that people are property.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; December 25th, 2012 at 02:51 AM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    "Many"?

    Compared to the six million, just how "many" was it?

    Besides which, that's not your call to make -- you don't own them. If I'd rather go down taking some enemies with me rather than go to a concentration camp, that's my choice; it's not anyone else's to make for me.

    And that's the root of the problem: all this "gun control" talk tends to rest on the proposition that people are property.
    Yeah, and all of your talk tends to rest on the proposition that you're a cowboy vigilante superhero and that every sane person should think like you.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    ^Bump

    Would you buy a firearm for this person?

    [Linked Image: Removed]

    Would you sell a firearm to him? After all, it's just business.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 19th, 2013 at 12:57 PM. Reason: removed image depicting u/a individual

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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    It's also foolish to think that our gun control laws are ineffective because gun control is ineffective, lobbyists paid a lot of people to make sure our gun laws were ineffective.

    Eradicating gun violence is one thing, mitigating the damage is another. The first - while a commendable goal is not possible, the second is only common sense.
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    Re: Thoughts after Sandy Hook

    Oh and yeah - once again - discussion of the 2cnd amendment is just a red herring - it is ALREADY legal for the Gov (and it already does) to regulate firearms. The ONLY thing in question is the type and amount of regulation.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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