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  1. #51
    JUB Addict Sausy's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    You were an officer, Jay...this guy didn't come from as educated a background. He was given bad advice and well, the kind of abuse that goes on there, guess he brought it on himself. But Jon Hammar has done nothing to deserve the miscarriage of justice he is being subject to...plus he was being treated for intense psychological stress from his service days. Carney is a fucking clown...I just get so pissed every time I see him coming out with some unbelievable whopper, he's such a whore for the Administration.

    I thought liberals believed in greys...not black or white view of the world. But apparently when their interests call for it, intellectual honesty and integrity to be completely trashed compared to defending the administration no matter what. Chance has more political savvy and wisdom than any of the progressive dogmatists here because he gets things aren't either/or...but actually tries to listen and respect other viewpoints. I'm damn glad for him, because he isn't so predictable...I'd love to see more on the left really THINK for once, and not just rely on emotion or certitude. That goes for those here on the right, but they are pretty much in the minority. I know I'm uncertain about many things... right or left I loathe certitude or sanctimony. Maybe it bothers me more about it on the left here though, because they are the ones who always claim to be so civilized and enlightened and measured. Horse manure on that really being the case.
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  2. #52
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by JayQueer View Post
    They're talk show hosts in Southern California. They're the most listened to local talk-show hosts in the United States. Politically, they're libertarian. Pro-choice and support gay marriage, but strongly anti-union and anti-tax, pro-smaller government, anti-corruption. They're awesome

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_and_Ken



    Of course Military men are so patriotic and sexy! Why do you think I've been crushing on JayHawk for so long?? JayHawk is my future husband. He just doesn't know it yet....
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  3. #53
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    You were an officer, Jay...this guy didn't come from as educated a background. He was given bad advice and well, the kind of abuse that goes on there, guess he brought it on himself. But Jon Hammar has done nothing to deserve the miscarriage of justice he is being subject to...plus he was being treated for intense psychological stress from his service days. Carney is a fucking clown...I just get so pissed every time I see him coming out with some unbelievable whopper, he's such a whore for the Administration.

    I thought liberals believed in greys...not black or white view of the world. But apparently when their interests call for it, intellectual honesty and integrity to be completely trashed compared to defending the administration no matter what. Chance has more political savvy and wisdom than any of the progressive dogmatists here because he gets things aren't either/or...but actually tries to listen and respect other viewpoints. I'm damn glad for him, because he isn't so predictable...I'd love to see more on the left really THINK for once, and not just rely on emotion or certitude. That goes for those here on the right, but they are pretty much in the minority. I know I'm uncertain about many things... right or left I loathe certitude or sanctimony. Maybe it bothers me more about it on the left here though, because they are the ones who always claim to be so civilized and enlightened and measured. Horse manure on that really being the case.
    What do you think Obama is supposed to do?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  4. #54
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausy View Post
    You were an officer, Jay...this guy didn't come from as educated a background. He was given bad advice and well, the kind of abuse that goes on there, guess he brought it on himself. But Jon Hammar has done nothing to deserve the miscarriage of justice he is being subject to...plus he was being treated for intense psychological stress from his service days. Carney is a fucking clown...I just get so pissed every time I see him coming out with some unbelievable whopper, he's such a whore for the Administration.

    I thought liberals believed in greys...not black or white view of the world. But apparently when their interests call for it, intellectual honesty and integrity to be completely trashed compared to defending the administration no matter what. Chance has more political savvy and wisdom than any of the progressive dogmatists here because he gets things aren't either/or...but actually tries to listen and respect other viewpoints. I'm damn glad for him, because he isn't so predictable...I'd love to see more on the left really THINK for once, and not just rely on emotion or certitude. That goes for those here on the right, but they are pretty much in the minority. I know I'm uncertain about many things... right or left I loathe certitude or sanctimony. Maybe it bothers me more about it on the left here though, because they are the ones who always claim to be so civilized and enlightened and measured. Horse manure on that really being the case.
    ...blah blah blah partisan screed pretending not to be, blah blah blah.....
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  5. #55
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    What do you think Obama is supposed to do?
    That's NOT the point.

    ...Bad Canadian!...
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  6. #56
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It is correct that the prisoner is entitled to diplomatic oversight of his judicial process; ordinarily it would be a local consular official, however it could rise to the level of Minister of State or Head of State. I'm not sure that at the moment it would be likely for any US president to intervene on behalf of someone accused of any crime related to the use of guns.
    I must have missed the "use of guns". The information was that he was transporting antiques.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #57
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    That's NOT the point.

    ...Bad Canadian!...
    LOL. Obama is supposed to do certain things (or rather his administration is). US consular officials are entitled, and perhaps obliged, to meet with the defendant and determine how he has been treated. They are entitled to demand equivalent protections for the defendant that would be available to any Mexican. And that is it. Whose laws do people think will be applied in Mexico anyway?

    Oh; if it is accurate that US border officials counselled this guy that it was okay to go to Mexico with this weapon, they should be disciplined.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  8. #58
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I must have missed the "use of guns". The information was that he was transporting antiques.
    Ahh. I accept your observation and revise thusly: "I'm not sure that at the moment it would be likely for any US president to intervene on behalf of someone accused of any crime related to the possession of firearms."
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  9. #59
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I am not saying US folks should not be working to help repatriate our citizen. However, the citizen is legally detained and the job of the President is not and has never been to personally barter for stupid people who cant follow the rules.
    Is he? I've read five different sources on this now and it appears to me that he was arrested for trying to obey the law. He asked the US folks what he needed to do to take it along and they did paperwork for him that was supposed to go to the Mexican authorities who would tell him what to do next.

    So... since when do we approve of punishing people for trying to follow or uphold the law?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #60
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    NEW SOURCES!!!!

    Good some illumination beyond the one with the atheist Indonesian.

    Where are they?
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  11. #61
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Is he? I've read five different sources on this now and it appears to me that he was arrested for trying to obey the law. He asked the US folks what he needed to do to take it along and they did paperwork for him that was supposed to go to the Mexican authorities who would tell him what to do next.

    So... since when do we approve of punishing people for trying to follow or uphold the law?
    The trouble is, US border authorities are not a proper source for learning about the requirements of another country's laws. If those officials were not aware of that, they weren't doing their job, which should have been to say "I don't know. You'd better check it out first."

    I hear a lot of Brits get into trouble coming to Canada while carrying khat. It is a banned drug here; perfectly legal in the UK. I'm not sure we just seize it as we would if your bottle of shampoo is too large to go carry-on.


    http://www.globalnews.ca/Pages/story.aspx?id=6442546044
    Yes, it seems we seize and sometimes charge if the quantity is sufficient.
    Last edited by bankside; December 19th, 2012 at 12:12 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  12. #62
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by JayQueer View Post
    It's obvious why Pres. Obama doesn't care about this Marine. He's a straight white man & a gun owner. Hardly a demographic that would support Obama anyway.

    Now, if it was a member of HRC that was being wrongly held, tortured in a Mexican Jail & threatened by Mexican drug cartels..........Obama would have sent in the Navy SEALs months ago.
    This is pretty bloody vile even for you. A man is imprisoned for trying to obey the law, and you come in with racist, partisan bullshit.

    Be glad I'm no mod -- you'd be banned till spring.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #63
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Oh; this is interesting. It appears to have been a Democrat who asked for, and received, certain assurances as to the condition of his imprisonment:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/13/us/mex...html?hpt=hp_c3

    U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, a Democrat from Florida, stepped in on Hammar's behalf, speaking to Mexico's ambassador to the United States.
    "We interceded to get him out of the general prison population," Nelson said. This served to remove Hammar from contact with dangerous inmates.
    Last edited by bankside; December 19th, 2012 at 12:17 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  14. #64
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    What do you think Obama is supposed to do?
    He's entitled to consular visits, I believe. Obama could probably get him released merely by hiring one extra person at the nearest consulate whose job would be to visit Hammar.

    Every day.

    Twice.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #65
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Oh; if it is accurate that US border officials counselled this guy that it was okay to go to Mexico with this weapon, they should be disciplined.
    From the various accounts, they advised him that the paperwork they'd given him was what he would need to try to get permission from the Mexicans. Either way, something went wrong, and a guy merely trying to follow the law got thrown in a rat hole.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #66
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    NEW SOURCES!!!!

    Good some illumination beyond the one with the atheist Indonesian.

    Where are they?
    NY Daily News, Reuters, Chicago Tribune, Yahoo News, MSN, and (okay, shoot me) Fox.

    There's a lot of shared text in the different articles; this one seems to be the main source for the others:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BA01U20121211

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #67
    Suck my dick, Scalia! FuryOfFirestorm's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by JayQueer View Post
    It's obvious why Pres. Obama doesn't care about this Marine. He's a straight white man & a gun owner. Hardly a demographic that would support Obama anyway.

    Now, if it was a member of HRC that was being wrongly held, tortured in a Mexican Jail & threatened by Mexican drug cartels..........Obama would have sent in the Navy SEALs months ago.
    Remember all those times when GWB personally flew over to foreign country, broke into prison and carried the imprisoned US citizens on his back to the strains of "Up Where We Belong"?

    You don't? Neither do I.

  18. #68
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Oh; this is interesting. It appears to have been a Democrat who asked for, and received, certain assurances as to the condition of his imprisonment:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/13/us/mex...html?hpt=hp_c3
    That quote is an understatement: calls were made to his parents demanding money, with threats to his life if they didn't comply.

    BTW, one of the sources (Chicago Tribune, IIRC) stated that the prison was pretty much run by the drug cartel in the area.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #69
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Oh; this is interesting. It appears to have been a Democrat who asked for, and received, certain assurances as to the condition of his imprisonment:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/13/us/mex...html?hpt=hp_c3
    Strange that says nothing about Obama, atheism, Indonesia, child hating, soldier hating, or indeed child soldier hating - and isn't the "mainstream" media supposed to be ignoring this?

    Obama is a hateful sod for ignoring this guy he knew nothing about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That quote is an understatement: calls were made to his parents demanding money, with threats to his life if they didn't comply.

    BTW, one of the sources (Chicago Tribune, IIRC) stated that the prison was pretty much run by the drug cartel in the area.
    The first thing I thought was that this was an attempted extortion gig.
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  20. #70
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Bill O'Reilly should go and visit him. Problems solved !!!


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Yeah, just THINK of the money they could get for him!!!!!
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  22. #72
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The part where you go off on your standard Obamahate™ over a complete right wing hatchet piece.

    Let me know when you've manufactured the dudgeon level you were aiming for.

    Even for you this is pretty silly.

    "...BUT BUT BUT OMGs

    the Probs, PTSD

    Hater Pres

    Vet

    You Libs so haters..."


    LOL

    Ain't it the truth.

    Same old, same old.

    Is there nothing on earth that the wild eyed can't blame Obama for?

    I'm surprised that they haven't suggested that he should have been able to stop Sandyhook...but I guess that will come.

  23. #73

    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    What do you think Obama is supposed to do?
    A phone call to the new President of Mexico would be a start.

  24. #74
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Obamallegiance

    Trumps the care for an American vet who best case was dealt a shitty hand

    Obamallegiance says health care for all but fuck the marine vet stuck in a prison

    Obamallegiance is nauseating

    But enlightening

    Empathy for causes not individuals

  25. #75
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Chance... so agree with you .Intelligence and "progressive enlightenment" DOES NOT EQUAL wisdom and common sense and it's just unfathomable that there is such an unwillingness or inability to get over partisan pettiness on the other side even in a case like this.
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  26. #76
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    OMG.

    FOX really had to dig deep to find the next Shoutrage issue to bolster the Obamahate among their loyal followers.

    I guess that his secret Islam jihad against Christmas doesn't have any traction?

    So now, what you are all saying is that the job of the President of the US is to personally intervene in the case of every American arrested in any country around the world.......by calling the Leader of that country and just telling them to let the Americans go.


    Are you guys for real some days??????

  27. #77
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    ^ you've yet to address the situation

    Just condemn the source

    Desperate much ?

  28. #78
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    ^ you've yet to address the situation

    Just condemn the source

    Desperate much ?
    The situation, as framed in the title, is that Obama is "ignoring" someone "wrongly held" in jail. Neither of those things appears to be true. There is no information that Obama was aware of the situation and that he chose to disregard the man's consular rights. The Mexican government has been responsive to requests from a US Democratic Senator to improve the conditions in which the accused is held. It strikes me as unlikely that a Senator could make such contact without the knowledge or support of US consular officials, so the man is not being ignored. And it seems unclear what role Obama should take if the accused's right to consular contact is already yielding results. There is no indication that he was entrapped by Mexican authorities on the basis of a false statement by them pretending to authorise his importation of the weapon and then reneging once he arrived, thus he is not wrongly held.

    Given the gulf between the facts and the thread title, it requires analysis of the motivation for such a title, as rareboy has provided.
    Last edited by bankside; December 19th, 2012 at 10:32 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    ^ Thanks for taking the time to provide the fleshed out explanation.

    I would note for Chance, that it doesn't appear to have been me who is desperate when you actually learn more about the facts and background of this story and then look at the thread title and some of the absurd ranting posts by the usual clique of Obama haters.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Here are his rights, as recognized by Mexico through their signature (along with most of the rest of the world) to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

    Article 9
    Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. No one shall be deprived of his liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedure as are established by law.
    Anyone who is arrested shall be informed, at the time of arrest, of the reasons for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him.
    Anyone arrested or detained on a criminal charge shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorized by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release. It shall not be the general rule that persons awaiting trial shall be detained in custody, but release may be subject to guarantees to appear for trial, at any other stage of the judicial proceedings, and, should occasion arise, for execution of the judgement.
    Anyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings before a court, in order that court may decide without delay on the lawfulness of his detention and order his release if the detention is not lawful.
    Anyone who has been the victim of unlawful arrest or detention shall have an enforceable right to compensation.
    [edit]Article 10
    All persons deprived of their liberty shall be treated with humanity and with respect for the inherent dignity of the human person.
    (a) Accused persons shall, save in exceptional circumstances, be segregated from convicted persons and shall be subject to separate treatment appropriate to their status as unconvicted persons;
    I think Mexico is pushing it as far as the time it has taken so far, and perhaps the fact that he is detained pretrial. And he should not ever have been held in a prison with convicted people.
    Last edited by bankside; December 19th, 2012 at 11:08 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  31. #81

    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Has it occurred to anyone that it might just be a very bad move for this marine were Obama to become publicly involved in this matter? It might make it more difficult to secure his release if Obama were to be making public demands. Nationalistic passions could be stoked, making it more difficult for Mexican authorities to release him if doing so were perceived as caving in to pressure from an American president.

    It also should escape no one's notice that the United States has executed foreign citizens in contravention of international law, including a Mexican citizen, by imposing the death penalty while denying them access to their consulates. Let's not get on our high horses about Mexico when we have so blatantly flouted international law by sentencing their citizens to death without access to their consulates.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Silly Palemale - the purveyors of Obamahate™ don't actually care about the guy, they just want to hate on Obama.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Indeed Palemale. I'm sorry but the U.S. has ignored international laws countless times when it comes to citizens of other countries and letting them contact their consulates.
    More to the point,if you aren't sure you've done something correctly,don't do it. Obama really has no recourse in telling another country what to with their laws.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Another starry eyed ingenue - the point of all of ths is to hate on Obama, no more, no less - to feel smug that the BLACK man in the WHITE house is apparently a Vet despising, callous Indonesian who hates Jesus. They have no plans to actually - ya know ask Obama to DO anything, that would defeat the purpose.

    Get with the program!!!!
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The Mexican government has been responsive to requests from a US Democratic Senator to improve the conditions in which the accused is held. It strikes me as unlikely that a Senator could make such contact without the knowledge or support of US consular officials, so the man is not being ignored. And it seems unclear what role Obama should take if the accused's right to consular contact is already yielding results. There is no indication that he was entrapped by Mexican authorities on the basis of a false statement by them pretending to authorise his importation of the weapon and then reneging once he arrived, thus he is not wrongly held.
    Oh, it's not unlikely at all; Congresscritters don't particularly care what the White House has to say when they think they can win points by helping out a constituent abroad -- makes for good press.

    "Wrongly held" is arguable. Morally speaking, he certainly is, because all he was doing was trying to comply with the law.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    I agree that Obama shouldn't get directly involved, nor, for that matter, should SecState Clinton. But I do think a bit more pressure could be applied subtly.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Oh, it's not unlikely at all; Congresscritters don't particularly care what the White House has to say when they think they can win points by helping out a constituent abroad -- makes for good press.

    "Wrongly held" is arguable. Morally speaking, he certainly is, because all he was doing was trying to comply with the law.
    I'm not sure about the moral argument either: it is recognised as the duty of the traveller to comply with the laws. If someone came to Canada and said "Can I bring in this khat?" it would be seized and they would not likely be charged. If they checked in at the border and said "Can I bring in this kilogram of cocaine?" I expect they would be charged despite their forthcoming lack of deception, and willingness to check in good faith.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    LOL. Obama is supposed to do certain things (or rather his administration is). US consular officials are entitled, and perhaps obliged, to meet with the defendant and determine how he has been treated. They are entitled to demand equivalent protections for the defendant that would be available to any Mexican. And that is it. Whose laws do people think will be applied in Mexico anyway?

    Oh; if it is accurate that US border officials counselled this guy that it was okay to go to Mexico with this weapon, they should be disciplined.
    No Jack Springer insists that Obama should call the President of Mexico and take care of this.

    Because that apparently is in the job description of the President of the United States.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I'm not sure about the moral argument either: it is recognised as the duty of the traveller to comply with the laws. If someone came to Canada and said "Can I bring in this khat?" it would be seized and they would not likely be charged. If they checked in at the border and said "Can I bring in this kilogram of cocaine?" I expect they would be charged despite their forthcoming lack of deception, and willingness to check in good faith.
    I call that uncivilized. The proper response should be to explain the law, confiscate the contraband, and send them away with the admonition to come back without any contraband next time.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I call that uncivilized. The proper response should be to explain the law, confiscate the contraband, and send them away with the admonition to come back without any contraband next time.
    Most civilized countries highly restrict the use of "ignorance of the law" as a defence.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Most civilized countries highly restrict the use of "ignorance of the law" as a defence.
    That itself is uncivilized. It places a burden on citizens which legislator themselves cannot uphold.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  42. #92

    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    No Jack Springer insists that Obama should call the President of Mexico and take care of this.

    Because that apparently is in the job description of the President of the United States.
    Obama could delegate .... he doesn't have to use the Jimmy Carter model all the time . . . . maybe have Hillary call for him -- that is if she is feeling ok, we don't want a flu relapse -- she's having to miss all those fancy DC and NYC Christmas Holiday parties anyway.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Obama could delegate .... he doesn't have to use the Jimmy Carter model all the time . . . . maybe have Hillary call for him -- that is if she is feeling ok, we don't want a flu relapse -- she's having to miss all those fancy DC and NYC Christmas Holiday parties anyway.
    Appoint one of his Marine buddies to the consulate there, and give him the duty of regular visits. That would serve to both give the man hope and annoy the Mexicans to where they would hopefully decide they'd wronged the guy and just turn him loose.

    And meanwhile make a checklist for our border people, "What to do when a citizen has a firearm".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by JayQueer View Post
    It's obvious why Pres. Obama doesn't care about this Marine. He's a straight white man & a gun owner. Hardly a demographic that would support Obama anyway.

    Now, if it was a member of HRC that was being wrongly held, tortured in a Mexican Jail & threatened by Mexican drug cartels..........Obama would have sent in the Navy SEALs months ago.
    So JayQueer just turned this topic into a race baiting thread while interjecting a sarcastic comment against homosexuals (HRC) in a homosexual forum community.


    As for the article that this thread is about, it is first of all written with a bias slant that loses journalistic integrity. Additionally, the title of this article (and chance1's title) is misleading because no where does this information prove that President Obama actively knew about this case, reviewed it, and then chose to ignore it. It makes the assumption that because the man has not been released yet, that the State Department is somehow ignoring the case. Considering chance1 has now revealed that the man is going to be released, this faux outrage was all really for nothing.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    ^ What is worse is that, as usual, the avatar Jayqueer managed to turn the discussion into another personal pull-down-his-pants experience to talk talk about his unrequited sexual lusts and fantasies for military dudes and one of the posters on this board.

    It is yet one more example of why Jayqueer is no longer considered a credible poster in CE&P.

    Pretty fucking sad.

    It is better when he is using one of his other noms de guerre to make a point.

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Is he? I've read five different sources on this now and it appears to me that he was arrested for trying to obey the law. He asked the US folks what he needed to do to take it along and they did paperwork for him that was supposed to go to the Mexican authorities who would tell him what to do next.

    So... since when do we approve of punishing people for trying to follow or uphold the law?
    Go to the Mexican government link I provided above and read the requirements for bring arms into Mexico. It plainly and clearly states you must obtain permission PRIOR to entering the country not after. There is no paperwork you bring with you. I honestly hold the US Customs officials most responsible for not protecting their citizen by asking him IF he had the correct paperwork prior to allowing him to exit the country. But that is as far as the 'other person' culpability goes.

    As far as I was an officer and he was a enlisted guy I don't buy that enlisted folks are stupid or ignorant. I worked today with a SGT who joined with no High School Diploma or GED... she graduates with her masters this spring. I also worked as enlisted for 18 years while I earned and learned enough to be a mustang -- or an Officer appointed through merit not because I attended a school and think I know it all.

    The other reason I do not buy the ignorance argument is every country we go into you get a country brief. Part of that training includes discussing local travel requirements, and anti-terrorism training. The level two training is required for overseas. The level one training occurs yearly wherever you are located and is taught upon accession. Those training sessions STRESS the requirement to know the country your going to including all required travel rules, restricted items, local taboos and customs and having a general terror brief for the dangers and how to recognize them. So if he was in the Marines for the minimum time and never did a float then he received that training four times. If he deployed then he got not only the four times but an additional training session for every time he left the US for another country. It says he was in Iraq and Afghanistan. So by that I can surmise he was trained on what to do a Minimum of six times. Four level one and two level two training sessions. I DO NOT BUY IGNORANCE.

    Oh and Sausy you extolling the values of Chance is ok I suppose but just know not matter what he takes a position on now or previously there are two hard and fast rules. In Bush's term no matter the issue he defended him and in Obama time no matter the issue he excoriates him. I actually have the ability to assess the two different men and their various failings. I am also as you pointed out an Officer in the United States Military. SO I am prohibited by US LAW from making disrespectful statements about the man who personally employees me and request I serve at his pleasure. That man would be the President of the United States. Hence my disagreement with various Bush Policy was stated politely but that was passed off as acceptance because I wasn't calling him a war criminal. Likewise I am not acerbic enough so therefore according to the likes of you and chance I am an Obama ball licker. What I really think is those of you who simply hate to hate without reviewing a single thing should figure out how to critically think and contribute instead of call names and make every thread about others instead of ideas.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Aww

    The drones don't like the title of the thread

    Debunker derailers unite

    A fellow vet has no sympathy

    Obama's purity and goodness trumps (ironic term) all

    Whatever chubs u up ladies

    As for Obama's ignorance on the issue

    I give u his personal valet Jay Carney who knew nothing about it and proved it with the press corps

    And Hammar's parents who when interviewed said so

    Love the details of mexico's laws - LOL

    Thank goodness for the bipartisan deeds of Nelson and Rubio

    The genuflecting may continue

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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Many sentences

    No substance

    Limp sarcasm

    Thread title was bait, so was thread

    The sad troll weeps
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Many sentences

    No substance

    Limp sarcasm

    Thread title was bait, so was thread

    The sad troll weeps
    I'm honored you had time to take away from your 2nd amendment re-write to address this topic

    if hammar were gay, you'd be all over this but alas he is not



    In August, the family received a frightening middle of the night phone call from the cartel demanding money, Jon Hammar Senior said.
    '"Lady, this isn't about the police. This is our house. We have your son. We're going to kill him if you don't send us money,"' Jon Hammar Senior said, recounting the phone call.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Christmas.html

  50. #100

    Re: Pres. Obama Ignores Ex-Marine Wrongly Held In Mexican Jail l

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    I'm honored you had time to take away from your 2nd amendment re-write to address this topic

    if hammar were gay, you'd be all over this but alas he is not

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Christmas.html
    That is so true Chance. Rolyo85 would have started 4 threads by now.

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