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  1. #151
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    haven't we had lengthy discussions on prisons and the fact that we lock up so many people? We need proper rehabilitation methods not more incarceration. Some need to be incarcerated but not as many as we have.
    Hmmm...I thought I saved the part about Republicans hating everything to do with making mental health care available, which may have been in your post as well...OR NOT...but I think I lost it while trying to edit. I don't like quoting a lot of material which doesn't relate to what I'm trying to say.

    Anyway, incarceration sends these MILLIONS of people to the best crime school in the world. Among other things, once somebody gets out of prison, they know EXACTLY where to go, and how to procure an illegal gun, no matter how restricted they are. If somebody has their mind set on doing a massacre, they're not going to worry about the technicalities of illegality for firing a weapon that they wouldn't be allowed to use, because they'll have much bigger fish to fry after the massacre - if indeed they survive, rather than dying from their own suicide or suicide-by-cop.

    Mental health care is unquestionably important, and I've already said so in some other posts in this Forum and HT. Having a widely available and efdfective mental health care system, which is also affordable to the general population, will not stop all of the massacres, but I think it would stop at least one-half of them. The mentally ill person needs to have access to the care, as well as not quitting meds long enough for his/her mind to trainwreck, etc.

    A good mental health infrastructure would do a HELL of a lot more for the quality of life in the United States, over and above "just" stopping most of the massacres.

    Indeed, Republicans to HATE the possibility of a health care system for mental problems, because the model cannot easily be made into something that is actually insanely (sorry, but the word implies) PROFITABLE. Better to just let people's minds go entirely off the rails, because such services will never help create more billionaires, which is one of the main purposes for that Party.

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    the country I live in, where guns are highly restricted, and not a single child has been killed by a gun in a school, ever.
    I had to look it up, because I thought that the Tasmanian massacre in the 1990's was at a school. Wrong, it was at a historic site...
    Last edited by frankfrank; December 20th, 2012 at 06:53 PM.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

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  2. #152
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Nice of you to make something up for our consideration.
    I didn't. You said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Given that the Constitution says it's for promoting the general welfare, the Second Amendment's desire to allow all citizens to be armed must have been considered a way to promote the general welfare. So there can't really be much constitutional objection to working within the meaning of the Second to make sure it's contributing to promoting the general welfare.
    It "must have been considered a way to promote the general welfare" At best you could hope to show an internal consistency within the document, but you don't show that; it appears you just assume it's a given. If it made it into the constitution, it's constitutional. It's a dead question not worth reexamining. Just do what it says by rote and all will be well.

    Which is what I took from your position, and which struck me as being very strange coming from a person who usually asserts that constitutions are not worth the vellum they're illuminated upon; they merely record the rights that flow from a proper understanding about the nature of humans. If constitutions are the mere shorthand notes that record greater timeless principles about the dignity of human relations, then it is the timeless principles themselves against which any clause should be periodically checked.

    And when compared to the ideals of self-protection, resisting tyranny, and resisting invasion, the Second Amendment passes that test…200 years ago. Those are the principles by which gun ownership derives any merit that would dignify its being mentioned in a constitution. But gun ownership is really just a tool for accomplishing those ends, not a principle in and of itself. All of those ideals might be better served today by other technologies or even other approaches entirely.

    The self-preserving, tyranny-defeating, invasion-resisting potential of the text message is probably greater than that of the gun.

    A well regulated telecommunications system being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to send and receive text messages shall not be infringed.

    THAT would do more to uphold the principled intent behind the second amendment than the two-hundred-year-old technology currently codified in its words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Guns have no "unintended consequences" unless they malfunction and blow up.

    No means not capable of stopping the threat is a valid provision for exercise of the right.
    The intended consequences of the gun are to foster self-protection, resist tyranny, and repel invasion. The actual consequences are occasionally to do those things, and often to undermine self-protection and innocent human life. The cost/benefit ratio has to be compared regularly to other possible approaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You live in an armless community; you'll wish you hadn't when one of these gunmen shows up to slaughter people.
    You really think that's an everyday possibility don't you? An extraordinary event that is realistically worth preparing for. Okay, I say you'll wish you had a fallout shelter one day. Then I say you'll wish you had a Slim Whitman record one day when the Martians attack.

    I tell you what, for all the money wasted on guns to address fictitious concerns, and for the all-guns-all-the-time approach to real concerns that actually exacerbates the problem, I would bring in a sort of Janet Reno with Tanks and Superpowers, and round everyone up, and have the government seize their guns in what the backwoods militias of Idaho would surely call a pogrom if they actually knew that word, and I would definitively stop the tremendous waste of blood, tears and treasure that is gun culture, so that humanity could focus itself on solving a real problem, like how to deflect a near earth asteroid. Or with any hope, even a comet.

    By the way, I want to dispense with your idea that it is not the state's job to protect us from wrongdoers. If I were robbed, I'm not left to my own devices to bring a prosecution for robbery on my own. If I were murdered, it is not up to me to have bequeathed an heir with the right to bring a prosecution for murder on my behalf. Legally, this is because the offences are not against me, but against the state. The state is aggrieved when I am murdered, and it acts to protect its interests. The only limitation on the state's power is that it must act justly. The state is an automatic, implicit, third party to the relationship between myself as the victim, and the murderer who spies me on the street.

    And that relationship does not exist only when a crime is committed, it precedes that, and we have evidence of it all the time. Governments do more than prosecute successful airplane hijackers, they take measures to foil their plots in advance. Government is an implicit party to the relationship between me as a private citizen and prospective victim, and the other person as a private citizen and prospective hijacker. Before there is even any connection between the two of us forged by a completed criminal act. They have the mandate and the authority and the obligation to protect us.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  3. #153
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Is it altogether possible that SHE was mentally ill, and therefore should have not been allowed legally to own weapons? It's been said that he wasn't seeking mental help (maybe because finding help is so close to impossible in this country???), and I haven't heard anything suggesting that any of the guns were HIS, but they were his mother's, so no matter what mental health laws were in place, he would have slipped beneath all of the radar. However, he may also have had no access to a nonexistent arsenal owned by his mother, if SHE had been barred.
    Actually i dont think she was. And he wasnt seeking help but his mother was looking to commit him because (I would surmise) he was not seeking help and she could see he had a problem.

    I would wager she was so comfortable around weapons that the idea never dawned on her that her son would snap at the idea of forced treatment and kill. So what i suggested earlier in the thread when me and Kuli discussed it was very simple. Once she made the first contact to try and commit the young man if a safety pamphlet left with her explaining that "often the mentally ill strike out violently. Not always but sometimes so therefore it is highly recommend that you secure all weapons in your home from the person you intend to take this action against. Further it is not just for your safety but also so the ill do not commit suicide before we can provide help. "

    That would be a simple informative type of document that could change many outcomes.

    I have gone further to suggest other steps after we strengthen NICS so that EVERY gun transaction requires a background check of the person receiving the weapon. Once that loop is closed then you have to prevent those who didnt buy the weapons like Lanza. The second amendment says that there should be no law created to inhibit possessing a weapon. Simply require all gun ranges or shooting areas to have to license person authorized to use the facility or grounds. Then just as the city does in many places. Make the discharge of a weapon illegal in side limits other than shooting ranges.

    Now you have not prevented persons from owning weapons but you have prevented anyone from target practice. You will not get good shooting video games... they do not kick and the weight and heft is simply not the same... you only learn to shoot by shooting.

    The constitution says nothing about where you may operate your god given right to bear arms.

    The final steps would be to make it so a high degree of accuracy in shooting requires practice. I.E. reduce magazine sizes, no full auto (which are unavailable right now anyhow) ...

    Those steps would make it so that every person possessing or operating a gun would be screened. That does not mean all violence stops. it just means that you reduce the propensity for mass murder with high kill ratios.
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  4. #154
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    I know quite a few teachers, and they would almost certainly be horrified at your suggestion that they be armed and trained for warfare in schools. Should we also have armed ushers in movie houses? Supermarket cashiers? Waitresses? Armed hosts at senior's bingo games? Armed clowns at children's birthday parties? Where does it end?
    Why not?

    The only reason to object to this is paranoia... which you show again.

    And I feel sorry for teachers who would rather just let their kids be targets instead of being able to protect them should the situation come.


    In many places around the country, one in twenty citizens is walking around armed now. Has it turned into the "wild west"? No. Has it increased the violent crime rate? No.

    Arming law-abiding citizens does not harm anyone -- on the contrary, by the record, it saves lives and property.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #155
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah, speaking of wild fantasies, the "people are making their own guns" joke never gets old.

    And the 90 million should follow strict regulations, so that the annual 10 000 MURDERERS among them are weeded out. Same as we have regulations for drivers. Not anyone can drive, nor is your status as a driver sacred and guaranteed if you don't follow regulations. Other than some vaguely interpreted words some centuries old, there is NO reason guns should be any different, especially considering how much more directly dangerous they are.
    Driving is not a right.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #156
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah, because what makes more sense than an annoyed adult surrounded by children 50 hours a week to be ARMED... It's not like teachers ever have nervous breakdowns... I am extremely disappointed that THIS is the course you selected in this particular discussion - that we need to ARM TEACHERS.

    And I imagine andysayshi doesn't think it acceptable that the shooter be able to shoot the adults at whim so he can go after the kids, but rather that the shooter should not be a shooter to begin with.
    The evidence from Europe, where guns are difficult to obtain, shows that there will always be shooters.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #157
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, I am anti-Second Amendment, which makes me pro-life. You are pro-death and pro-violence. I mean, if we're going to play populism here...

    There will always be everything dangerous ever invented. The response to that is NOT deregulation, it's the opposite.
    People go armed because they are ANTI-violence. To twist it the way you do is to show paranoia.

    BTW, citizens are not the property of the government, to be treated as statistics.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #158
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Nope, he isn't. I mean, he ALREADY isn't. Deal with it.
    To the extent that a citizen is not allowed to choose his own means of self-defense he is not a citizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And the whole "don't touch our guns" mentality views people as rabid dogs. I'd rather sheep, frankly...
    No, it merely accepts reality.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #159
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Word. I wonder how long will this type of message be ignored? Or if it isn't crickets, it's the unfounded and indefensible "but Americans are different, and HERE it would totally cause death and destruction, because of reasons!" argument.
    Hopefully it will be ignored as long as people prefer not to be treated as property.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #160
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Driving is not a right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    To the extent that a citizen is not allowed to choose his own means of self-defense he is not a citizen.
    I choose to drive away from any threat as a means of self-defence.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  11. #161
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Ironically, one of the greatest advocates for gun restrictions in the US for decades was ... the NRA.

    Only in the past 30 years has the NRA morphed into the big-money lobbyist it is today. With an annual budget exceeding $200 million, the modern NRA is beholden to its major bankrollers - arms manufacturers. As a result, the NRA fight any form of gun regulation, despite the obvious facts and logic within the gun debate.
    Corporate donations are but a small fraction of the NRA's cash flow -- last year, about 6%.

    And out of the corporate money, about two-thirds is from arms makers.

    A source that provides perhaps 4% of an organization's income is hardly a "bankroller".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #162
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Virginia Tech Kul.
    Really? Can you link me to an article about the gun store owner and his trial and sentencing to federal prison?

    Of course you can't -- because your claim is totally false.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Kul I honestly like you but on this one, particular topic... you might as well be a Henry Reardon or someone else that just utterly can't be reasoned with. I get that you feel very very strongly on your stance on this issue... but you're unwilling to even consider the general notion being plainly presented to you here by multiple posters that your reasoning is bizarre, your solutions are impractical and reckless, and that even in some fantasy scenario where we fully train and certify people in every possible place of business (NOT police, you don't trust them or like the concept of police for whatever reason) to be an armed guardsman that this wouldn't be a much more expensive, much more broad-ranging, much less effective and much more casualty-inducing method of combating sudden public shooting sprees than simply stopping severely mentally ill people from picking up 100-ammo clips and automatic weapons at the point of purchase.

    I can't see any reason to continue this discussion with you when you are so completely ideological about it.
    I'm not ideological about it, I'm realistic.

    The fantasy is on your side: somehow you believe that if the teachers there had been armed, they would have missed, or panicked and not been able to aim, or some other weird scenario. But in fact the truth is that teachers are among the most responsible of people, so almost certainly the death toll would have stopped at less than five.

    Millions of citizens walk around every day armed -- millions more than twenty years ago. What's the crime rate been doing? Going down. What's the violent crime rate been doing? Going down. But if your worries has any substance, the opposite would be true!

    Why don't I trust the police to protect anyone? Very simple -- it's not their job. At least three federal circuit courts have told them so. The Supreme Court has told them so. They have no responsibility at all to keep me from harm -- besides which, they can't; in every case where a gun has saved my skin or those of friends, all the cops could have done was call an ambulance and hunt for clues.

    BTW, your last bit shows plainly that you haven't been paying attention, or that you are so blinded by irrationality on one point that you're not seeing what I've actually said.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Yup it's the easiest and even the cheapest, too. Worst case scenario is some fee for a check into prison records & mental health care database gets passed along by the retailer to the person purchasing the gun, no different from paying the landlord for a credit check when you start to sign on an apartment lease or whatever.

    Although I think this thread makes it patently clear that this being the simplest solution isn't actually in dispute, but rather some phantom argument about how this is the path that leads to all of us being oppressed service drones to the tyrannical U.S. government.
    Um... you're talking about something already in place. It's called the NICS, and it hasn't stopped any of the shootings.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; December 20th, 2012 at 08:25 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #163
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    It's been said that he wasn't seeking mental help (maybe because finding help is so close to impossible in this country???)
    No kidding. We owe it to the mentally ill to have a basic infrastructure, enough so that someone who does decide he wants help doesn't have to go on a long-term waiting list. That such a system might have caught a shooter or two is just a reason to get busy on this.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #164
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It "must have been considered a way to promote the general welfare" At best you could hope to show an internal consistency within the document, but you don't show that; it appears you just assume it's a given.
    Huh?

    Of course it's consistent -- the same people put both pieces in.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #165
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Which is what I took from your position, and which struck me as being very strange coming from a person who usually asserts that constitutions are not worth the vellum they're illuminated upon; they merely record the rights that flow from a proper understanding about the nature of humans. If constitutions are the mere shorthand notes that record greater timeless principles about the dignity of human relations, then it is the timeless principles themselves against which any clause should be periodically checked.
    Is this "make stuff up about Kuli" week or something? This is just bizarre.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    And when compared to the ideals of self-protection, resisting tyranny, and resisting invasion, the Second Amendment passes that test…200 years ago. Those are the principles by which gun ownership derives any merit that would dignify its being mentioned in a constitution. But gun ownership is really just a tool for accomplishing those ends, not a principle in and of itself. All of those ideals might be better served today by other technologies or even other approaches entirely.

    The self-preserving, tyranny-defeating, invasion-resisting potential of the text message is probably greater than that of the gun.

    A well regulated telecommunications system being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to send and receive text messages shall not be infringed.

    THAT would do more to uphold the principled intent behind the second amendment than the two-hundred-year-old technology currently codified in its words.
    That's in the First Amendment already....

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The intended consequences of the gun are to foster self-protection, resist tyranny, and repel invasion. The actual consequences are occasionally to do those things, and often to undermine self-protection and innocent human life. The cost/benefit ratio has to be compared regularly to other possible approaches.
    Rights are not subject to cost/benefit analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You really think that's an everyday possibility don't you? An extraordinary event that is realistically worth preparing for. Okay, I say you'll wish you had a fallout shelter one day. Then I say you'll wish you had a Slim Whitman record one day when the Martians attack.
    Have you taken the air bag out of your car? Most of those will go the life of the vehicle without ever being used, but they're there.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I tell you what, for all the money wasted on guns to address fictitious concerns, and for the all-guns-all-the-time approach to real concerns that actually exacerbates the problem, I would bring in a sort of Janet Reno with Tanks and Superpowers, and round everyone up, and have the government seize their guns in what the backwoods militias of Idaho would surely call a pogrom if they actually knew that word, and I would definitively stop the tremendous waste of blood, tears and treasure that is gun culture, so that humanity could focus itself on solving a real problem, like how to deflect a near earth asteroid. Or with any hope, even a comet.
    "Fictitious"?

    Did the violent crime rate go to zero while I wasn't looking?

    I'll stop carrying the day there's no one left in the US who might carve "DIE FAG" into the paint on my truck.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    By the way, I want to dispense with your idea that it is not the state's job to protect us from wrongdoers. If I were robbed, I'm not left to my own devices to bring a prosecution for robbery on my own. If I were murdered, it is not up to me to have bequeathed an heir with the right to bring a prosecution for murder on my behalf. Legally, this is because the offences are not against me, but against the state. The state is aggrieved when I am murdered, and it acts to protect its interests. The only limitation on the state's power is that it must act justly. The state is an automatic, implicit, third party to the relationship between myself as the victim, and the murderer who spies me on the street.
    Nothing in there is a duty to protect -- it's just a duty to clean up after the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    And that relationship does not exist only when a crime is committed, it precedes that, and we have evidence of it all the time. Governments do more than prosecute successful airplane hijackers, they take measures to foil their plots in advance. Government is an implicit party to the relationship between me as a private citizen and prospective victim, and the other person as a private citizen and prospective hijacker. Before there is even any connection between the two of us forged by a completed criminal act. They have the mandate and the authority and the obligation to protect us.
    It's getting tiresome pointing this out, but it's the federal courts including SCOTUS more than once which are saying that the police have no responsibility to protect me. Here's one article about what I believe is the most recent decision to say so:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/po...otus.html?_r=0

    The earliest, I think, was in 1856.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Is it getting tiresome for you to ignore plain counterexamples to your assertions?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I would wager she was so comfortable around weapons that the idea never dawned on her that her son would snap at the idea of forced treatment and kill. So what i suggested earlier in the thread when me and Kuli discussed it was very simple. Once she made the first contact to try and commit the young man if a safety pamphlet left with her explaining that "often the mentally ill strike out violently. Not always but sometimes so therefore it is highly recommend that you secure all weapons in your home from the person you intend to take this action against. Further it is not just for your safety but also so the ill do not commit suicide before we can provide help. "

    That would be a simple informative type of document that could change many outcomes.
    I'm trying to figure out which NRA course or program that would fit best so I can write them.

    I like dealing with the "old NRA" part of the organization, that is still one of the world's foremost safety organizations of any kind, the part that makes the NRA the world's foremost gun-safety organization. Wish I could figure out a way to make Marion Hammer and Wayne LaPierre and their slimy kind just vanish.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I choose to drive away from any threat as a means of self-defence.
    That's your choice of means. OTOH I've twice been in situations where that wasn't possible.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's your choice of means. OTOH I've twice been in situations where that wasn't possible.
    Don't care. You regularly put yourself in situations where, due to the responsible principle of not using guns while consuming alcohol, your self preservation from attack is "at greater risk." Have I now by your logic established that driving is a right or not?

    I'm feeling a little oppressed that you would only see your preferred technology of self defence as a right, but mine is not. Tyranny!
    Last edited by bankside; December 20th, 2012 at 08:49 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Is it getting tiresome for you to ignore plain counterexamples to your assertions?
    What counterexamples? No one has offered any counterexamples to the fact that if teachers had been armed, fewer kids would be deead, or that the right to keep and bear arms is just that -- a right.

    Or do you mean counterexamples showing that a tweak to the NICS system for public institutions to report dangerous individuals wouldn't have caught any of the recent shooters?

    Or counterexamples showing that no shooter would have been helped by a basic mental health infrastructure?


    So far all that's been said is "Those won't work" or even "Those are evil".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Don't care. You regularly put yourself in situations where, due to the responsible principle of not using guns while consuming alcohol, your self preservation from attack is "at greater risk." Have I now by your logic established that driving is a right or not?
    Of course it's not a right. Travel is a right, but it's up to you to achieve the version you prefer -- and even then, travel on someone else's property isn't a right.

    It's my choice to decide to increase my risk -- it's not anyone else's choice to require me to do so.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    What counterexamples? No one has offered any counterexamples to the fact that if teachers had been armed, fewer kids would be deead, or that the right to keep and bear arms is just that -- a right.

    Or do you mean counterexamples showing that a tweak to the NICS system for public institutions to report dangerous individuals wouldn't have caught any of the recent shooters?

    Or counterexamples showing that no shooter would have been helped by a basic mental health infrastructure?


    So far all that's been said is "Those won't work" or even "Those are evil".
    If no-one had been armed, fewer still kids would be dead. A crazy person would have arrived at the school and attempted to kick or strangle a child, and no one would have been shot to death in pushing back, and there's a good chance that not one child would be dead.

    Even better if, in addition to the absence of useless firearms, Lanza the Mother had not raised her child with the same self-indulgent paranoia redolent in US gun culture that allows people to think someone is out to get them, and for which they must arm themselves to the teeth. It's patently absurd, given the experience of other more peaceable societies.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Of course it's not a right. Travel is a right, but it's up to you to achieve the version you prefer -- and even then, travel on someone else's property isn't a right.

    It's my choice to decide to increase my risk -- it's not anyone else's choice to require me to do so.
    Finally you understand my point.

    Travel - freedom of movement - is indeed a right.

    The ability to defend oneself is indeed a right.

    Those are the principles I'm going on about.

    But the ability to use a car, or a gun, are merely technologies in the service of those rights, and the government has every duty and obligation to regulate the shit out of those technologies, and specify who is qualified to use them, when and where, because the technologies themselves have negative externalities which must be weighed.

    The reason I may not keep a stock of polonium or ricin for self defence is not because my right to self defence is being abridged, it is because these are not appropriate technologies to serve the right.

    The reason I may not keep a stock of polonium or ricin for self defence is not because it fails to have been mentioned in a constitution written 200 years ago, but because it fails to stand in service of the right known in the Living Constitution which is otherwise known as Principle.
    Last edited by bankside; December 20th, 2012 at 09:01 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'm trying to figure out which NRA course or program that would fit best so I can write them.

    I like dealing with the "old NRA" part of the organization, that is still one of the world's foremost safety organizations of any kind, the part that makes the NRA the world's foremost gun-safety organization. Wish I could figure out a way to make Marion Hammer and Wayne LaPierre and their slimy kind just vanish.
    Maddow noted an interesting pattern for the NRA. Every since Columbine they have immediately indicated that their prayers are with the victims... immediately as in 24hrs.... then about a week later they say that "XYZ incident should not be a call for gun policy change" or words to those effects.... this time they waited four days to say in a few more days they would hold a press conference and are ready to offer constructive ideas to a policy debate to prevent this from ever happening again. "

    I sincerely hope that offer is not arming every human on the planet.

    In a separate piece the judge who sentenced Loughner said it is time to regulate high capacity magazines.

    I get it. Someone bent on mass murder who has only a 10-round magazine or revolvers at his disposal probably is not going to abandon his plan and instead try to talk his problems out. But we might be able to take the "mass" out of "mass shooting," or at least make the perpetrator's job a bit harder.
    So what's the alternative? Bring back the assault weapons ban, and bring it back with some teeth this time. Ban the manufacture, importation, sale, transfer and possession of both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Don't let people who already have them keep them. Don't let ones that have already been manufactured stay on the market. I don't care whether it's called gun control or a gun ban. I'm for it.
    That is valid contribution to an effective mitigation of the mass violence without infringing on the 2nd amendment.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    If no-one had been armed, fewer still kids would be dead. A crazy person would have arrived at the school and attempted to kick or strangle a child, and no one would have been shot to death in pushing back, and there's a good chance that not one child would be dead.

    Even better if, in addition to the absence of useless firearms, Lanza the Mother had not raised her child with the same self-indulgent paranoia redolent in US gun culture that allows people to think someone is out to get them, and for which they must arm themselves to the teeth. It's patently absurd, given the experience of other more peaceable societies.
    I don't live in fantasy-land.

    Nor do I favor crushing liberty for the sake of some speculative safety.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Finally you understand my point.

    Travel - freedom of movement - is indeed a right.

    The ability to defend oneself is indeed a right.

    Those are the principles I'm going on about.

    But the ability to use a car, or a gun, are merely technologies in the service of those rights, and the government has every duty and obligation to regulate the shit out of those technologies, and specify who is qualified to use them, when and where, because the technologies themselves have negative externalities which must be weighed.

    The reason I may not keep a stock of polonium or ricin for self defence is not because my right to self defence is being abridged, it is because these are not appropriate technologies to serve the right.

    The reason I may not keep a stock of polonium or ricin for self defence is not because it fails to have been mentioned in a constitution written 200 years ago, but because it fails to stand in service of the right known in the Living Constitution which is otherwise known as Principle.
    Sorry -- the right to travel is not dependent on your means. OTOH, the right to self-defense requires a means that is effective, and the one who gets to decide what is effective is the one choosing the means.

    There is no instrument known to mankind that is superior for self-defense to the firearm -- specifically, to the handgun. To deny the use of that is to declare the value of people's lives to be less.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I didn't. You said this:

    It "must have been considered a way to promote the general welfare" At best you could hope to show an internal consistency within the document, but you don't show that; it appears you just assume it's a given. If it made it into the constitution, it's constitutional. It's a dead question not worth reexamining. Just do what it says by rote and all will be well.

    Which is what I took from your position, and which struck me as being very strange coming from a person who usually asserts that constitutions are not worth the vellum they're illuminated upon; they merely record the rights that flow from a proper understanding about the nature of humans. If constitutions are the mere shorthand notes that record greater timeless principles about the dignity of human relations, then it is the timeless principles themselves against which any clause should be periodically checked.

    And when compared to the ideals of self-protection, resisting tyranny, and resisting invasion, the Second Amendment passes that test…200 years ago. Those are the principles by which gun ownership derives any merit that would dignify its being mentioned in a constitution. But gun ownership is really just a tool for accomplishing those ends, not a principle in and of itself. All of those ideals might be better served today by other technologies or even other approaches entirely.

    The self-preserving, tyranny-defeating, invasion-resisting potential of the text message is probably greater than that of the gun.

    A well regulated telecommunications system being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to send and receive text messages shall not be infringed.

    THAT would do more to uphold the principled intent behind the second amendment than the two-hundred-year-old technology currently codified in its words.



    The intended consequences of the gun are to foster self-protection, resist tyranny, and repel invasion. The actual consequences are occasionally to do those things, and often to undermine self-protection and innocent human life. The cost/benefit ratio has to be compared regularly to other possible approaches.



    You really think that's an everyday possibility don't you? An extraordinary event that is realistically worth preparing for. Okay, I say you'll wish you had a fallout shelter one day. Then I say you'll wish you had a Slim Whitman record one day when the Martians attack.

    I tell you what, for all the money wasted on guns to address fictitious concerns, and for the all-guns-all-the-time approach to real concerns that actually exacerbates the problem, I would bring in a sort of Janet Reno with Tanks and Superpowers, and round everyone up, and have the government seize their guns in what the backwoods militias of Idaho would surely call a pogrom if they actually knew that word, and I would definitively stop the tremendous waste of blood, tears and treasure that is gun culture, so that humanity could focus itself on solving a real problem, like how to deflect a near earth asteroid. Or with any hope, even a comet.

    By the way, I want to dispense with your idea that it is not the state's job to protect us from wrongdoers. If I were robbed, I'm not left to my own devices to bring a prosecution for robbery on my own. If I were murdered, it is not up to me to have bequeathed an heir with the right to bring a prosecution for murder on my behalf. Legally, this is because the offences are not against me, but against the state. The state is aggrieved when I am murdered, and it acts to protect its interests. The only limitation on the state's power is that it must act justly. The state is an automatic, implicit, third party to the relationship between myself as the victim, and the murderer who spies me on the street.

    And that relationship does not exist only when a crime is committed, it precedes that, and we have evidence of it all the time. Governments do more than prosecute successful airplane hijackers, they take measures to foil their plots in advance. Government is an implicit party to the relationship between me as a private citizen and prospective victim, and the other person as a private citizen and prospective hijacker. Before there is even any connection between the two of us forged by a completed criminal act. They have the mandate and the authority and the obligation to protect us.
    A magnificent post that I just felt necessary to repeat.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Maddow noted an interesting pattern for the NRA. Every since Columbine they have immediately indicated that their prayers are with the victims... immediately as in 24hrs.... then about a week later they say that "XYZ incident should not be a call for gun policy change" or words to those effects.... this time they waited four days to say in a few more days they would hold a press conference and are ready to offer constructive ideas to a policy debate to prevent this from ever happening again. "

    I sincerely hope that offer is not arming every human on the planet.
    It will certainly include arming teachers, but that's only good sense. It had better include a concession to the idea they trashed ion Florida, that public institutions such as universities which have recognized someone to be a threat shall report that person to the NICS.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    In a separate piece the judge who sentenced Loughner said it is time to regulate high capacity magazines.

    So what's the alternative? Bring back the assault weapons ban, and bring it back with some teeth this time. Ban the manufacture, importation, sale, transfer and possession of both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Don't let people who already have them keep them. Don't let ones that have already been manufactured stay on the market. I don't care whether it's called gun control or a gun ban. I'm for it.

    That is valid contribution to an effective mitigation of the mass violence without infringing on the 2nd amendment.
    He's an idiot if he thinks an "assault weapon" ban is worth the photons in the period of this sentence. "Assault weapon" is nothing but a political term that means "Guns I think look scary".

    Besides that, here's what the NRA ought to offer: that high-capacity magazines, i.e. over twenty rounds, have to be kept at gun clubs or shooting ranges where they're locked up so the only people who can use them are the owners, who can only use them there or at competitions (I'm sure Wayne & friends would love to hold some of those). And they should propose it because it's in keeping with the meaning of "militia" in the Second Amendment. While that clause is not restrictive in requiring actual membership in an organized militia in order to keep and bear arms, it does indicate that the nature of this keeping and bearing lies within the realm of the meaning of that term. All gun owners are militia; Congress has the authority "to provide for organizing... and disciplining, the militia...." (disciplining meaning then "to provide for order"); Congress may then establish rules about the storing and security of the militia's arms. Obviously it can't take them away, but if some are deemed unfit for "common" use, then -- and this follows Miller -- it may decree that such must be kept in an "arsenal", i.e. a formal place for storing weapons (but which is not government-run).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    A magnificent post that I just felt necessary to repeat.
    Nice of you to put yourself above numerous federal courts and the Supreme Court in a century and a half of jurisprudence.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    In many places around the country, one in twenty citizens is walking around armed now. Has it turned into the "wild west"? No. Has it increased the violent crime rate? No.

    Arming law-abiding citizens does not harm anyone -- on the contrary, by the record, it saves lives and property.
    Statistics of gun deaths in America being about a thousand times higher than in most other first world countries show the LIE in your post (because you're too smart to call this an error, it's a deliberate dishonesty).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Driving is not a right.
    And neither should be gun ownership ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The evidence from Europe, where guns are difficult to obtain, shows that there will always be shooters.
    Um, yes, and the evidence from Europe, where guns are difficult to obtain, shows that those will always been a thousand times fewer than the same number per capita in the US? Proving my point gets you nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    People go armed because they are ANTI-violence. To twist it the way you do is to show paranoia.

    BTW, citizens are not the property of the government, to be treated as statistics.
    No, people go armed because they are PRO-violence and ANTI-life. They go armed because to them it is acceptable to take another life, and EXPECT it to happen, thus showing THEIR paranoia.

    And citizens ARE the government. How many times do I need to repeat this until it sinks in? But statistics are important. 10 000 gun deaths are more than 40, and will always be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    To the extent that a citizen is not allowed to choose his own means of self-defense he is not a citizen.
    So nobody in the US of A is a citizen clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, it merely accepts reality.
    And then YOU have the temerity of talking to ME about paranoia? I say you view people as rabid dogs and you tell me that's reality? That's rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Hopefully it will be ignored as long as people prefer not to be treated as property.
    I wonder how many times you can repeat your "I don't care about dead kids as long as I have my guns" line before it stops being cute...




    And on and on it goes. I think I'll just stop responding to you on this subject, since you never really address reality anyway. I am just happy in the knowledge that, just like anti-gay sentiments, the pro-gun lobby is dying of old age and attitudes will change with time. I am young. I can wait.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Nice of you to put yourself above numerous federal courts and the Supreme Court in a century and a half of jurisprudence.
    It's called evolution of society and values. Look it up.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Statistics of gun deaths in America being about a thousand times higher than in most other first world countries show the LIE in your post (because you're too smart to call this an error, it's a deliberate dishonesty).
    Nice lie. And if you can't see it, you're so ideology-blinded it's tragic -- you should go join Benvolio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And neither should be gun ownership ^_^
    Ah, but it is. Regardless of what any government may say, self-ownership means the right to defend one's self by the means one chooses. To deny this is to say that humans are property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Um, yes, and the evidence from Europe, where guns are difficult to obtain, shows that those will always been a thousand times fewer than the same number per capita in the US? Proving my point gets you nowhere.
    False. I guess you're only scanning the thread for things to attack -- the evidence was given that Europe has roughly similar numbers of mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, people go armed because they are PRO-violence and ANTI-life. They go armed because to them it is acceptable to take another life, and EXPECT it to happen, thus showing THEIR paranoia.
    No. To be pro-violence is to take actions that will increase it. Citizens going unarmed does that, because it provides for an unopposed shooting spree by anyone who feels like it.

    Of course they expect it to happen -- any sane person would, because it DOES happen. It happens often enough that a couple of million times a year honest citizens feel compelled to use their firearms to stop criminals from doing harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And citizens ARE the government. How many times do I need to repeat this until it sinks in? But statistics are important. 10 000 gun deaths are more than 40, and will always be.
    Hardly. The nameless bureaucrats who sit around dreaming up new regulations without concern for whether they fit reality, or will harm people, or will hurt the economy, are the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    So nobody in the US of A is a citizen clearly.
    No one in the world at this point is really a citizen. The dominant philosophy in practice is that people are property of the State. Obama certainly acts that way, and so did all the congresscritters who voted for the "Patriot" Act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And then YOU have the temerity of talking to ME about paranoia? I say you view people as rabid dogs and you tell me that's reality? That's rich.
    You really ought to stop making things up. You're talking to your own delusions, at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I wonder how many times you can repeat your "I don't care about dead kids as long as I have my guns" line before it stops being cute...
    More making stuff up.

    The ones who don't care about kids are the ones who aren't willing to arm the teachers. Not arming the teachers is like saying, "Come and get 'em! Nice little targets for you!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And on and on it goes. I think I'll just stop responding to you on this subject, since you never really address reality anyway. I am just happy in the knowledge that, just like anti-gay sentiments, the pro-gun lobby is dying of old age and attitudes will change with time. I am young. I can wait.
    Enjoy the trip to tyranny, with your happy delusions. You can be comforted with all the crap you make up.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It's called evolution of society and values. Look it up.
    That's not part of the Constitution.

    Society always evolves toward tyranny. Power always moves toward the center, and the only way that's ever been fixed is by the force of arms. The route you and other liberals prescribe is a faster road toward that day, a nice march toward authoritarianism.

    Or maybe, this time, with all your efforts, it will be a one-world empire where there is no appeal, no escape, only serfdom.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Always? You sure? Paranoid much?

    And by the way "there is no evolution, there's only the constitution" is a very sad statement for someone with claims of critical thinking. This is the same as following the Bible to the letter. Both were written by men, in their respective times. They are neither infallible, nor universally timeless. Time to grow up and start thinking for yourself maybe.
    Last edited by Rolyo85; December 21st, 2012 at 12:32 AM.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Always? You sure? Paranoid much?

    And by the way "there is no evolution, there's only the constitution" is a very sad statement for someone with claims of critical thinking. This is the same as following the Bible to the letter. Both were written by men, in their respective times. They are neither infallible, nor universally timeless. Time to grow up and start thinking for yourself maybe.
    The reason both are there is to have an objective standard for reference so everyone knows what the standard is. The moment you start to play the "evolution" game by changing the meaning of things as you go along, there is no standard, merely word games.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    The reason both are there is to have an objective standard for reference so everyone knows what the standard is. The moment you start to play the "evolution" game by changing the meaning of things as you go along, there is no standard, merely word games.
    Yeah. Like changing the definition of marriage...

    Yes, THIS is what you sound like.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?


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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    Gotta love cartoons that rest on the cartoonist's paranoia.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah. Like changing the definition of marriage...

    Yes, THIS is what you sound like.
    "THIS"?

    You mean like your post here, which lacks any rational connection between it and mine?

    No, I work on reason and logic.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Gotta love cartoons that rest on the cartoonist's paranoia.
    Paranoia? Is there not a good percentage of people who favor teachers and staff to be armed? And the last panel is "exaggeration". Political cartoonists sometimes use it to prove a point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    "THIS"?

    You mean like your post here, which lacks any rational connection between it and mine?

    No, I work on reason and logic.
    Says the guy who believes the Bible is 100% factual.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    While I agree with you on the utter idiocy of armed elementary school teachers, Kuli does not in fact believe the Bible is 100% factual.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    While I agree with you on the utter idiocy of armed elementary school teachers, Kuli does not in fact believe the Bible is 100% factual.
    OK, fine. Change it to "Says the guy that believes that the Bible isn't a book of fables".

    Better, TX? Way to diminish my point, bro.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    "THIS"?

    You mean like your post here, which lacks any rational connection between it and mine?

    No, I work on reason and logic.
    So you keep saying, but it is kind of like the Halloween costume nobody gets - if you have to explain it, then it clearly isn't working.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    OK, fine. Change it to "Says the guy that believes that the Bible isn't a book of fables".

    Better, TX? Way to diminish my point, bro.
    Hey, I was just jumping on the grenade for ya!.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    Paranoia? Is there not a good percentage of people who favor teachers and staff to be armed? And the last panel is "exaggeration". Political cartoonists sometimes use it to prove a point.
    Yes, paranoia. The first panel is the exaggeration, the second and third are ludicrous fantasies, and the fourth is paranoid delusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    Says the guy who believes the Bible is 100% factual.
    <sigh>

    You're a very poor reader.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Yes, paranoia. The first panel is the exaggeration, the second and third are ludicrous fantasies, and the fourth is paranoid delusion.



    <sigh>

    You're a very poor reader.
    Says the guy who didn't read my adjustment of said statement just a few posts below....

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    Says the guy who didn't read my adjustment of said statement just a few posts below....
    I read it. The fact that you had to retract your original claim after being corrected merely confirmed that you're a poor reader. Or possibly have a poor memory.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    OK, fine. Change it to "Says the guy that believes that the Bible isn't a book of fables".

    Better, TX? Way to diminish my point, bro.
    I think it better anchors your point to accept the odd adjustment. But if I may quote from one of your leaders, who said, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is," then I think the true answer in that case must be "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'factual' is."
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I read it. The fact that you had to retract your original claim after being corrected merely confirmed that you're a poor reader. Or possibly have a poor memory.
    Or the fact that I don't read and memorize every single one of your posts.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    Or the fact that I don't read and memorize every single one of your posts.
    It would take but a thin sample of my posts to know better than what you said.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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