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  1. #101
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's common sense to do that. So long as shooters may show up like this, the first responders should be on site. If they have to wait for the Rambo police to come shoot things up, more kids will die.

    Not arming teachers is like having no first aid kits at the school, and insisting that no staff can give help to an injured kid, but have to wait till an ambulance arrives.
    That analogy is so bad Kul. What you are proposing is more like the equivalent of having surgical equipment at the school and encouraging teachers or nursing station volunteers to carry out operations on kids.

    It is not the job of an elementary school teacher to be armed head to toe to combat an armed attack on a grade school. If you sincerely believe that then why do we have a military or police at all?

  2. #102
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's common sense to do that. So long as shooters may show up like this, the first responders should be on site. If they have to wait for the Rambo police to come shoot things up, more kids will die.

    Not arming teachers is like having no first aid kits at the school, and insisting that no staff can give help to an injured kid, but have to wait till an ambulance arrives.
    Bullfuckingshit. You seem to be living in this happy happy fantasy land called Vigilantia, where everyone is armed everywhere and everyone knows what they are doing and cares about being careful and responsible and is a crack shot trained by spec ops.

    That's fantasy, it doesn't exist, you are inventing it to support an untenable position that you are glued to more tightly than the worst ideologue. Illusions and happy daydreams and pretending that guns don't kill people gun laws kill people so arm the first grade teacher is utter stupidity to pursue while people are dying because of it, Enough.

    You can't even claim most gun owners back here in reality are responsible like that, in fact I know that's not the case - no you can't. Step away from the crazy.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    For any of you that doubt this I would suggest a book my Malcolm Gladwell called "Blink". It describes and examines this ability in explicit detail. Now that man is reduced to making decision that are not life and death he has become befuddled often with the inability to trust instinct and make a decision. Your gut is usually right or at least enough to make a decent call.
    Interesting. If I can find my "Books to Read" list, I'll add it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Actually Kuli to be fair... and you are very scientifically fair most times. To be fair the studies in the US simply prove that the lack of weapons in a small area does not defeat crime if one can cross a border and get whatever they desire. So control would work if it was nationwide.
    It would just create a black market where criminal gangs had their own gun shops, and cause a surge in crime because of the black market.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    That said we all know the second amendment is not going anywhere. SO....

    Lets talk about what we agree on.

    Metal health is necessary for a functioning society. SO therefore access should be available to all. Access cannot be guaranteed by a free market society. It does not work we are living proof it does not provide for all. SO therefore just as common rules on the road or common rights to all free of discrimination is necessary to be enforced by the government so is a fair healthcare system.
    The authority for this lies in the definition of "militia", which excluded the "mentally and physically feeble", as one source I've read put it. It could be challenged, but since they aren't members of the militia and can be deemed a risk to self and others, I think it would stand.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    This case proves that mental health IS NOT the panacea that will solve the issue. You can also not legislate intelligence or eradicate stupidity or evil or criminal behavior. SO you must mitigate the ability of those with nefarious intentions to access weapons with a massive capacity to do harm. You still will not eliminate all of the most resourceful but you can reduce the propensity for large scale events.
    If we had the kind of mental health infrastructure we should have, there's a good chance this one, too, could have been caught.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Steps in "gun Control" which always is interpreted as taking guns away from all is not difficult at all. First make ALL purchasers acquire a background check. Additionally make a shooters license that allows ALL person who will fire a weapon required to be background checked. Nancy Lanza could not have irresponsibly taught her insane son to shoot at a range IF that was required. Enhancing the NICS system to have input from multiple sources including all metal health professionals would be a key addition. They would require immunity from lawsuits for mental health professionals. That would prevent those feeling they have improperly been rendered weaponless or those who have been victimized from making the law unusable with the help of money grubbing trial lawyers. There should also be a fair and easily enumerated process for re-acquiring your second amendment rights again IF you prove you are no threat.
    I've been looking and I can't find if what the NRA wanted got passed, to let anyone selling a firearm use the NICS. A lot of private sellers I know are using background check services on line, but those aren't always complete or accurate.

    There's a paperwork trick way a private seller can get a background check: the buyer and seller go to a FFL dealer. The seller does a transfer to the FFL, on paper, then the FFL makes the NICS call, and if it's all clear then the FFL transfers the gun to the buyer. Some BATFE agents have whined about the process, but due to the paperwork it's within the law, because the gun went from the seller's possession into that of the FFL, and then from the FFL to the buyer.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Finally, there is no realistic purpose that massive capacity magazines serve. It would stop those with a temporary break from relaity taking the moment to cause great damage. AT the same time it is a double edged sword. Just watch any shooting competition and you will realize quickly for those that are determined you don't even need a magazine to shoot at an amazing rate of fire, reloading all along the way.
    But... but... but I can cut down a tree faster with a fifty-round clip than with a twenty!


    Any magazine over twenty should be confined to shooting ranges approved by the local authorities. There would have to be storage facilities, but a two-year period to get that done could be used. People would be able to go enjoy the sheer silliness of a hundred rounds zipping downrange in six seconds, but they wouldn't be able to take the magazine home.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #104
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Yup.

    I was consistently ignored in the other thread when I brought up multiple times that the VA Tech shooter was GETTING HELP, and was on prescription anti-psychotic medications. Then he went off them--- as mentally ill people all too frequently do. He was away at college, he wasn't really close with his roommate, so who was to say he was suddenly dangerous or acting differently from usual?

    Somehow waving our hands over a crystal ball and saying "let there be mental healthcare" is not going to comprehensively address this problem when someone with a psychotic mental diagnosis can simply walk into any store and purchase guns without any checks of any kind in way too much of this country.
    NOWHERE in this country can anyone just "walk into any store and purchase guns without any checks of any kind". No store can sell without a FFL (even pawnshops have to have them), and no FFL who wants to stay out of federal prison will sell one without the NICS clearance.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #105
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That analogy is so bad Kul. What you are proposing is more like the equivalent of having surgical equipment at the school and encouraging teachers or nursing station volunteers to carry out operations on kids.

    It is not the job of an elementary school teacher to be armed head to toe to combat an armed attack on a grade school. If you sincerely believe that then why do we have a military or police at all?
    Ever heard of the concept of "levels of defense"?

    Arming teachers is the last line of defense. If a teacher has to fire on a shooter to end it, that means the other levels of defense failed.

    What I'm proposing is like first aid, not like surgery. Taking out a shooter is simple and straightforward. It doesn't require advanced tactical training, and it doesn't require being "armed head to toe", it merely means being like millions of responsible citizens who carry every day in this country and make it safer.

    And we have military and police to have someone to exercise those duties of citizens while we engage in other activities.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #106
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Step away from the crazy.
    Okay, I'll step away from you. All you've got is wild cowardly fantasies that your fellow citizens are going to go around shooting things up. Well, ninety million of them didn't today, and won't again tomorrow; instead the ones who carry will use those firearms a couple of million times in the year to stop crimes.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #107
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    NOWHERE in this country can anyone just "walk into any store and purchase guns without any checks of any kind". No store can sell without a FFL (even pawnshops have to have them), and no FFL who wants to stay out of federal prison will sell one without the NICS clearance.
    "U.S. federal law requires persons engaged in interstate firearm commerce, or those who are "engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, to hold a Federal Firearms License and perform background checks through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System maintained by the FBI prior to transferring a firearm. Under the terms of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, however, individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales within their state of residence, are under no requirement to conduct background checks on purchasers or maintain records of sale (although even private sellers are forbidden under federal law from selling firearms to persons they have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms)."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_sho..._United_States

    Right.
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  8. #108
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    "U.S. federal law requires persons engaged in interstate firearm commerce, or those who are "engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, to hold a Federal Firearms License and perform background checks through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System maintained by the FBI prior to transferring a firearm. Under the terms of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, however, individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales within their state of residence, are under no requirement to conduct background checks on purchasers or maintain records of sale (although even private sellers are forbidden under federal law from selling firearms to persons they have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms)."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_sho..._United_States

    Right.
    And I believe that merely selling ammo requires the same -- not sure, though.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #109
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Interesting. If I can find my "Books to Read" list, I'll add it.



    It would just create a black market where criminal gangs had their own gun shops, and cause a surge in crime because of the black market.



    The authority for this lies in the definition of "militia", which excluded the "mentally and physically feeble", as one source I've read put it. It could be challenged, but since they aren't members of the militia and can be deemed a risk to self and others, I think it would stand.



    If we had the kind of mental health infrastructure we should have, there's a good chance this one, too, could have been caught.



    I've been looking and I can't find if what the NRA wanted got passed, to let anyone selling a firearm use the NICS. A lot of private sellers I know are using background check services on line, but those aren't always complete or accurate.

    There's a paperwork trick way a private seller can get a background check: the buyer and seller go to a FFL dealer. The seller does a transfer to the FFL, on paper, then the FFL makes the NICS call, and if it's all clear then the FFL transfers the gun to the buyer. Some BATFE agents have whined about the process, but due to the paperwork it's within the law, because the gun went from the seller's possession into that of the FFL, and then from the FFL to the buyer.



    But... but... but I can cut down a tree faster with a fifty-round clip than with a twenty!


    Any magazine over twenty should be confined to shooting ranges approved by the local authorities. There would have to be storage facilities, but a two-year period to get that done could be used. People would be able to go enjoy the sheer silliness of a hundred rounds zipping downrange in six seconds, but they wouldn't be able to take the magazine home.
    For your book needs I have a copy because it was the last book I read before my Kindle. If you like I can send it to you as a Christmas present... send me details in a PM if you want it. I cant read it again and gain anything from it...

    As far as catching this guy in this incident? He was seeing a professional. The only thing we can change is the access portion. If this guy was in an accurate NICS and attempted to go shoot at whatever range (And believe me in Connecticut it was at a range for an AR-15).... then he would have been stopped because of his mental issues. had he not refined his ability to shoot and confidence with a weapon then he would have never been so adept. ....

    The only other prevention thing you could do with a mental health system is lower the requirements for declaring someone incompetent. That would draw fire from the left and the right for the potential abuse without cause.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  10. #110
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Okay, I'll step away from you. All you've got is wild cowardly fantasies that your fellow citizens are going to go around shooting things up. Well, ninety million of them didn't today, and won't again tomorrow; instead the ones who carry will use those firearms a couple of million times in the year to stop crimes.
    YOU are talking to people about "wild cowardly fantasies"? When you expect your government to swoop in on you form the sky to drain your blood or the neighbor to invade your home? Get real please.

    And stop with the 90 million bullshit, when OBVIOUSLY nobody cares about the majority who doesn't. It's the minority who does. One did last week. And one did the week before. And the month before. And the one before that. And on and on and on...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  11. #111
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Yup.

    I was consistently ignored in the other thread when I brought up multiple times that the VA Tech shooter was GETTING HELP, and was on prescription anti-psychotic medications. Then he went off them--- as mentally ill people all too frequently do. He was away at college, he wasn't really close with his roommate, so who was to say he was suddenly dangerous or acting differently from usual?

    Somehow waving our hands over a crystal ball and saying "let there be mental healthcare" is not going to comprehensively address this problem when someone with a psychotic mental diagnosis can simply walk into any store and purchase guns without any checks of any kind in way too much of this country.
    This.

    And that is why a 'discussion' that focusses in on only on provision of mental health care and video games will be a failure all around. The American people (read: Republicans) will baulk at the billions of dollars that need to go into providing better mental health care and will never allow that money to be spent and 90% of the country will just laugh at the idea of taking violence out of video games and movies.

    The most effective and cheapest solution is right in front of everyone.

  12. #112

    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    This.

    And that is why a 'discussion' that focusses in on only on provision of mental health care and video games will be a failure all around. The American people (read: Republicans) will baulk at the billions of dollars that need to go into providing better mental health care and will never allow that money to be spent and 90% of the country will just laugh at the idea of taking violence out of video games and movies.

    The most effective and cheapest solution is right in front of everyone.
    I am not opposed to further regulations BUT I have no illusions that it will prevent anyone who is mentally ill and bent on mass murder from carrying it out. They will get guns if they want them despite any regulations in place. For all any of us know...what is bad now could be worse if guns were not available because there are many other things that can kill alot more people at once. The ready availability of guns might actually save alot more people because if these psychopaths want a bigger body count there are far more effective methods to get the desired result.

  13. #113
    JUB Addict andysayshi's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    ^ That's like saying we should allow drunk driving, to prevent people from driving whilst using harder drugs.

    (Not that I'm disagreeing with your point - no law will stop every single crazy from getting through the loopholes. But you can stop an awful lot of them.)
    Last edited by andysayshi; December 20th, 2012 at 06:18 AM.

  14. #114
    JUB Addict andysayshi's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    What I'm proposing is like first aid, not like surgery. Taking out a shooter is simple and straightforward. It doesn't require advanced tactical training, and it doesn't require being "armed head to toe", it merely means being like millions of responsible citizens who carry every day in this country and make it safer.
    Safer? Than what? There are more gun deaths per person in the US than in any other industrialised nation. There are more gun homicides in the US than in any other industrialised nation. There are more gun suicides in the US than any other nation, period.

    How do you measure safe?

    You want to arm and train elementary school teachers to kill possible gunmen? I am flabbergasted at your stance on this issue.
    Last edited by andysayshi; December 20th, 2012 at 06:25 AM.

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    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I am not opposed to further regulations BUT I have no illusions that it will prevent anyone who is mentally ill and bent on mass murder from carrying it out. They will get guns if they want them despite any regulations in place. For all any of us know...what is bad now could be worse if guns were not available because there are many other things that can kill alot more people at once. The ready availability of guns might actually save alot more people because if these psychopaths want a bigger body count there are far more effective methods to get the desired result.
    This is an absurd statement. If there are no available guns and you are not fit to own one, you will NOT find guns. ESPECIALLY if you are mentally ill. The mentally ill aren't a drug cartel...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  16. #116
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    YOU are talking to people about "wild cowardly fantasies"? When you expect your government to swoop in on you form the sky to drain your blood or the neighbor to invade your home? Get real please.
    More wild fantasies . . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And stop with the 90 million bullshit, when OBVIOUSLY nobody cares about the majority who doesn't. It's the minority who does. One did last week. And one did the week before. And the month before. And the one before that. And on and on and on...
    Yes, obviously no one cares about the ninety million who didn't, because they're the ones the gun control advocates are aiming at.

    If something like the old "assault weapons" ban starts to look possible, here's what's going to happen: the manufacturers will ramp up production of anything that looks like it will be banned, and not be able to keep up with demand. People will buy them like crazy. Heck, I'll go out and buy a pile of magazines I don't need, because if the ban stays, five years down the road I'll be able to sell them for five times what I paid.

    And other people will go back to doing what they'd started to before: making their own. A 50-rd. mag made with a schedule 80 PVC housing looks tacky, but it works if you know what you're doing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    This.

    And that is why a 'discussion' that focusses in on only on provision of mental health care and video games will be a failure all around. The American people (read: Republicans) will baulk at the billions of dollars that need to go into providing better mental health care and will never allow that money to be spent and 90% of the country will just laugh at the idea of taking violence out of video games and movies.

    The most effective and cheapest solution is right in front of everyone.
    You say "This" to a position based on a lie?

    Wow.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #118
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I am not opposed to further regulations BUT I have no illusions that it will prevent anyone who is mentally ill and bent on mass murder from carrying it out. They will get guns if they want them despite any regulations in place. For all any of us know...what is bad now could be worse if guns were not available because there are many other things that can kill alot more people at once. The ready availability of guns might actually save alot more people because if these psychopaths want a bigger body count there are far more effective methods to get the desired result.
    Yeah . . . God help us if any of them ever realize that the components for mustard gas are available in any reasonable-sized town.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #119
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    ^^

    Unfortunately, current federal law requires criminal background checks only for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for just 60% of all gun sales in the United States.

    [Quote truncated by moderator] Coalition To Stop Gun Violence
    http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campa...-show-loophole

    Unless this is out of date or this organization and others like it are liars.
    Last edited by opinterph; December 20th, 2012 at 04:26 PM. Reason: truncated excessive quote from copyrighted source; Refer to CE&P Posting Guidelines

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Safer? Than what? There are more gun deaths per person in the US than in any other industrialised nation. There are more gun homicides in the US than in any other industrialised nation. There are more gun suicides in the US than any other nation, period.

    How do you measure safe?

    You want to arm and train elementary school teachers to kill possible gunmen? I am flabbergasted at your stance on this issue.
    I measure safe by "the shooter comes in ans starts shooting at kids, but the well-armed teacher takes him down before he gets to the hallway where there are forty kids".

    To NOT do that means that anyone who can get past the regulations that mainly penalize law-abiding citizens will have a free-for-all at the school.

    And to oppose arming those teachers... why? Do you think they're incompetent? that they don't care about the kids?

    Why is it you think it acceptable that the shooter be able to shoot the adults at whim so he can go after the kids?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    This is an absurd statement. If there are no available guns and you are not fit to own one, you will NOT find guns. ESPECIALLY if you are mentally ill. The mentally ill aren't a drug cartel...
    So you are anti-Second Amendment. Which makes you pro-criminal.

    There will ALWAYS be available guns. The technology has been out of the bag for centuries. The technology to make them at home has been out of the bag for decades.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And to oppose arming those teachers... why? Do you think they're incompetent? that they don't care about the kids?

    Why is it you think it acceptable that the shooter be able to shoot the adults at whim so he can go after the kids?
    The point is that the solution is not for MORE weapons availability it is for less. More guns just means these folks will be more creative in killing people to make their point.

    Read RBs post above mine. If you wanna know why gun control doesn't work it is because it is not enforced across the board the same way.

    Finally, you are correct about the ban. Therefore the law needs to not only prohibit future sales but make illegal current possession.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So you are anti-Second Amendment. Which makes you pro-criminal.

    There will ALWAYS be available guns. The technology has been out of the bag for centuries. The technology to make them at home has been out of the bag for decades.
    So why aren't tens of thousands of people dying in countries with gun restrictions? You know like good old safe USA.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    ^^


    http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campa...-show-loophole

    Unless this is out of date or this organization and others like it are liars.
    Well, they're close to being liars. They start out with the claim that 1.8 million criminals have been stopped from getting guns. So, where are they? Behind bars? No, those criminals are still out there trying to get guns; in fact a large portion of those 1.8 million are repeat "attempters".

    And why do so many private sales not do a background check? Simple: The law doesn't let them. There's no "loophole", there's an exclusion hole -- I thought the NRA had gotten that opened so private sellers could use the NICS, but apparently it didn't happen.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The point is that the solution is not for MORE weapons availability it is for less. More guns just means these folks will be more creative in killing people to make their point.
    So to hopefully keep killers from getting more imaginative, you want to keep people as easy prey?

    The whole "take away the guns" mentality views people as sheep, not citizens. A citizen is allowed to defend himself as he chooses.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #126
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So to hopefully keep killers from getting more imaginative, you want to keep people as easy prey?

    The whole "take away the guns" mentality views people as sheep, not citizens. A citizen is allowed to defend himself as he chooses.
    You are correct however I have already outlined what i think will put a huge dent in the insane or mass murderer from committing the crimes. A assault weapons ban no matter how poorly named IS effective. Simply look at the years it was in effect and you can see mass shootings declined in that period dramatically.

    Citizens may have to prove they are sane more often and background checks will prove they are not criminals. They just need to be expanded to 100% coverage.

    Oh and I agree folks who attempt to break the law should be prosecuted just like attempted robbery or any other attempted crime. However haven't we had lengthy discussions on prisons and the fact that we lock up so many people? We need proper rehabilitation methods not more incarceration. Some need to be incarcerated but not as many as we have.

    Such a diverse issue with so many competing contributions to the root cause. It needs a diverse and complicated solution. However, republicans have spent the last four years letting everyone know how much they hate public run health care and as governors cutting out mental health programs and services. Passing a law to require services is only apt if you fund it. Republicans are against paying for the economic depression they caused or the wars they started... how will they pay for problems they can't see, touch, taste and feel?
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  27. #127
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Well, they're close to being liars. They start out with the claim that 1.8 million criminals have been stopped from getting guns. So, where are they? Behind bars? No, those criminals are still out there trying to get guns; in fact a large portion of those 1.8 million are repeat "attempters".

    And why do so many private sales not do a background check? Simple: The law doesn't let them. There's no "loophole", there's an exclusion hole -- I thought the NRA had gotten that opened so private sellers could use the NICS, but apparently it didn't happen.
    So up to 40% of all the guns sold in America may have no background check.

  28. #128

    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    This is an absurd statement. If there are no available guns and you are not fit to own one, you will NOT find guns. ESPECIALLY if you are mentally ill. The mentally ill aren't a drug cartel...
    Ummm...all they would have to do is hook up with the military re-enactment crowd. Not a hard thing to do. There are 10 ways I can think of off the top of my head to get guns if I wanted them without even applying myself. I hear alot of people using the term "naive" around here....thinking that someone will NOT find guns if they want them is incredibly naive.

  29. #129
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    HENCE EastofEden I recommended to legally fire a weapon you must obtain a background check. That could easily be enforced at ranges, re-enactment locations or any other organized venue. Will there still be outliers? Hell after we make pot legal will gun runners bring 'em up from Mexico instead of pot???? Of course. Which is why i suggest we get more stringent on verifying who is buying and using weapons. That is the only place we can actually have an effect.
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  30. #130
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    So up to 40% of all the guns sold in America may have no background check.
    Right. And it's because of some legislators who oppose anything the NRA wants. Surveys of NRA members have shown that if a private individual had access to using the NICS, better than nine out of ten would use it when not selling to friends or family members.

    A survey of our local Pink Pistols members says 100% of us would use it.

    But we can't, because there are idiots who put hatred above the country.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  31. #131

    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    HENCE EastofEden I recommended to legally fire a weapon you must obtain a background check. That could easily be enforced at ranges, re-enactment locations or any other organized venue. Will there still be outliers? Hell after we make pot legal will gun runners bring 'em up from Mexico instead of pot???? Of course. Which is why i suggest we get more stringent on verifying who is buying and using weapons. That is the only place we can actually have an effect.
    Everything you propose sounds reasonable to me...I am actually more neutral on the issue because I can see both sides...but the bottom line is that people rob people all the time...home burglary cases are on the rise as are home invasions...and guns is one of the first things they steal. The kid in Connecticut got these from his mom so he would have bypassed these regulations. In San Jose California which is one of the 10 largest cities in the country police no longer have the manpower to investigate and/or follow through with most home burglaries as less tax revenue means less public servants. It is a vicious cycle.

    Which brings us back to the Republican tax cuts which seriously diminishes the capability and effectiveness of law enforcement across the country. That happens anytime you use 10 people to do the work of 20.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I measure safe by "the shooter comes in ans starts shooting at kids, but the well-armed teacher takes him down before he gets to the hallway where there are forty kids".
    I measure safe by living in a community where it is so hard for a deluded individual to get a gun that he can't even be labeled a shooter. Like the country I live in, where guns are highly restricted, and not a single child has been killed by a gun in a school, ever.

    Like in China, where guns are highly restricted, and a madman walked into a school last Friday with a knife. He hurt 22 kids, but not one of them died, and the teachers chased him out of the school WITH BROOMS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    To NOT do that means that anyone who can get past the regulations that mainly penalize law-abiding citizens will have a free-for-all at the school.

    And to oppose arming those teachers... why? Do you think they're incompetent? that they don't care about the kids?

    Why is it you think it acceptable that the shooter be able to shoot the adults at whim so he can go after the kids?
    I know quite a few teachers, and they would almost certainly be horrified at your suggestion that they be armed and trained for warfare in schools. Should we also have armed ushers in movie houses? Supermarket cashiers? Waitresses? Armed hosts at senior's bingo games? Armed clowns at children's birthday parties? Where does it end?

    The statistics show very clearly that nations with less guns almost universally have less gun deaths. In my own nation, after a horrific mass shooting in 1996, we took away the guns, and we haven't seen a mass shooting since. Since then the gun homicide rate and the gun suicide rate have dropped substantially. There is no correlating explosion in crime - crime rates have actually fallen. There has been no explosion of backyard gun manufacture. All the things you claim gun restrictions will cause have not happened in nations that restrict guns.
    Last edited by andysayshi; December 20th, 2012 at 04:01 PM.

  33. #133

    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    HENCE EastofEden I recommended to legally fire a weapon you must obtain a background check. That could easily be enforced at ranges, re-enactment locations or any other organized venue. Will there still be outliers? Hell after we make pot legal will gun runners bring 'em up from Mexico instead of pot???? Of course. Which is why i suggest we get more stringent on verifying who is buying and using weapons. That is the only place we can actually have an effect.
    So we get a gun war with the legalization of pot?

    I said something similar in another thread .... guess what the reaction was.

    We have enough laws -- just obey the ones we have and live in peace.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    SO Jack what you are syaing is you are completely fine with a good portion of gun sales happening with no background check even though the NRA has expressed support for expanding the law.... really? That what you come away with after 26 people die?

    Please tell me what current law after having been properly enforced would have prevented Sandy Hook? All ears.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    More wild fantasies . . . .



    Yes, obviously no one cares about the ninety million who didn't, because they're the ones the gun control advocates are aiming at.

    If something like the old "assault weapons" ban starts to look possible, here's what's going to happen: the manufacturers will ramp up production of anything that looks like it will be banned, and not be able to keep up with demand. People will buy them like crazy. Heck, I'll go out and buy a pile of magazines I don't need, because if the ban stays, five years down the road I'll be able to sell them for five times what I paid.

    And other people will go back to doing what they'd started to before: making their own. A 50-rd. mag made with a schedule 80 PVC housing looks tacky, but it works if you know what you're doing.
    Yeah, speaking of wild fantasies, the "people are making their own guns" joke never gets old.

    And the 90 million should follow strict regulations, so that the annual 10 000 MURDERERS among them are weeded out. Same as we have regulations for drivers. Not anyone can drive, nor is your status as a driver sacred and guaranteed if you don't follow regulations. Other than some vaguely interpreted words some centuries old, there is NO reason guns should be any different, especially considering how much more directly dangerous they are.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I measure safe by "the shooter comes in ans starts shooting at kids, but the well-armed teacher takes him down before he gets to the hallway where there are forty kids".

    To NOT do that means that anyone who can get past the regulations that mainly penalize law-abiding citizens will have a free-for-all at the school.

    And to oppose arming those teachers... why? Do you think they're incompetent? that they don't care about the kids?

    Why is it you think it acceptable that the shooter be able to shoot the adults at whim so he can go after the kids?
    Yeah, because what makes more sense than an annoyed adult surrounded by children 50 hours a week to be ARMED... It's not like teachers ever have nervous breakdowns... I am extremely disappointed that THIS is the course you selected in this particular discussion - that we need to ARM TEACHERS.

    And I imagine andysayshi doesn't think it acceptable that the shooter be able to shoot the adults at whim so he can go after the kids, but rather that the shooter should not be a shooter to begin with.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So you are anti-Second Amendment. Which makes you pro-criminal.

    There will ALWAYS be available guns. The technology has been out of the bag for centuries. The technology to make them at home has been out of the bag for decades.
    No, I am anti-Second Amendment, which makes me pro-life. You are pro-death and pro-violence. I mean, if we're going to play populism here...

    There will always be everything dangerous ever invented. The response to that is NOT deregulation, it's the opposite.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So to hopefully keep killers from getting more imaginative, you want to keep people as easy prey?

    The whole "take away the guns" mentality views people as sheep, not citizens. A citizen is allowed to defend himself as he chooses.
    Nope, he isn't. I mean, he ALREADY isn't. Deal with it.

    And the whole "don't touch our guns" mentality views people as rabid dogs. I'd rather sheep, frankly...
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Ummm...all they would have to do is hook up with the military re-enactment crowd. Not a hard thing to do. There are 10 ways I can think of off the top of my head to get guns if I wanted them without even applying myself. I hear alot of people using the term "naive" around here....thinking that someone will NOT find guns if they want them is incredibly naive.
    You overestimate crazy people's determination and inventiveness. A guy who is having a nervous breakdown, or is off his meds, MIGHT do this sort of carefully planned stuff, but often the sheer UNaveilability and difficulty in obtaining the murder weapon, prevents the crime.

    As evidenced by countries with strict gun control.
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    I measure safe by living in a community where it is so hard for a deluded individual to get a gun that he can't even be labeled a shooter. Like the country I live in, where guns are highly restricted, and not a single child has been killed by a gun in a school, ever.

    Like in China, where guns are highly restricted, and a madman walked into a school last Friday with a knife. He hurt 22 kids, but not one of them died, and the teachers chased him out of the school WITH BROOMS.



    I know quite a few teachers, and they would almost certainly be horrified at your suggestion that they be armed and trained for warfare in schools. Should we also have armed ushers in movie houses? Supermarket cashiers? Waitresses? Armed hosts at senior's bingo games? Armed clowns at children's birthday parties? Where does it end?

    The statistics show very clearly that nations with less guns almost universally have less gun deaths. In my own nation, after a horrific mass shooting in 1996, we took away the guns, and we haven't seen a mass shooting since. Since then the gun homicide rate and the gun suicide rate have dropped substantially. There is no correlating explosion in crime - crime rates have actually fallen. There has been no explosion of backyard gun manufacture. All the things you claim gun restrictions will cause have not happened in nations that restrict guns.
    Word. I wonder how long will this type of message be ignored? Or if it isn't crickets, it's the unfounded and indefensible "but Americans are different, and HERE it would totally cause death and destruction, because of reasons!" argument.
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    JUB Addict andysayshi's Avatar
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Ironically, one of the greatest advocates for gun restrictions in the US for decades was ... the NRA.

    Only in the past 30 years has the NRA morphed into the big-money lobbyist it is today. With an annual budget exceeding $200 million, the modern NRA is beholden to its major bankrollers - arms manufacturers. As a result, the NRA fight any form of gun regulation, despite the obvious facts and logic within the gun debate.

    Of the worst 25 mass shootings in the world over the past 50 years, 15 occurred in the US. Five of those have happened since 2007.

    The US is unusually violent where guns are concerned. Here's a graph of deaths per 100k population of OECD nations.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It's also interesting to note that gun deaths in the US are slowly falling. And so is gun ownership.

  42. #142
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    NOWHERE in this country can anyone just "walk into any store and purchase guns without any checks of any kind". No store can sell without a FFL (even pawnshops have to have them), and no FFL who wants to stay out of federal prison will sell one without the NICS clearance.
    Virginia Tech Kul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Ever heard of the concept of "levels of defense"?

    Arming teachers is the last line of defense. If a teacher has to fire on a shooter to end it, that means the other levels of defense failed.

    What I'm proposing is like first aid, not like surgery. Taking out a shooter is simple and straightforward. It doesn't require advanced tactical training, and it doesn't require being "armed head to toe", it merely means being like millions of responsible citizens who carry every day in this country and make it safer.

    And we have military and police to have someone to exercise those duties of citizens while we engage in other activities.
    Kul I honestly like you but on this one, particular topic... you might as well be a Henry Reardon or someone else that just utterly can't be reasoned with. I get that you feel very very strongly on your stance on this issue... but you're unwilling to even consider the general notion being plainly presented to you here by multiple posters that your reasoning is bizarre, your solutions are impractical and reckless, and that even in some fantasy scenario where we fully train and certify people in every possible place of business (NOT police, you don't trust them or like the concept of police for whatever reason) to be an armed guardsman that this wouldn't be a much more expensive, much more broad-ranging, much less effective and much more casualty-inducing method of combating sudden public shooting sprees than simply stopping severely mentally ill people from picking up 100-ammo clips and automatic weapons at the point of purchase.

    I can't see any reason to continue this discussion with you when you are so completely ideological about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    This.

    And that is why a 'discussion' that focusses in on only on provision of mental health care and video games will be a failure all around. The American people (read: Republicans) will baulk at the billions of dollars that need to go into providing better mental health care and will never allow that money to be spent and 90% of the country will just laugh at the idea of taking violence out of video games and movies.

    The most effective and cheapest solution is right in front of everyone.
    Yup it's the easiest and even the cheapest, too. Worst case scenario is some fee for a check into prison records & mental health care database gets passed along by the retailer to the person purchasing the gun, no different from paying the landlord for a credit check when you start to sign on an apartment lease or whatever.

    Although I think this thread makes it patently clear that this being the simplest solution isn't actually in dispute, but rather some phantom argument about how this is the path that leads to all of us being oppressed service drones to the tyrannical U.S. government.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post

    Nancy Lanza
    Is it altogether possible that SHE was mentally ill, and therefore should have not been allowed legally to own weapons? It's been said that he wasn't seeking mental help (maybe because finding help is so close to impossible in this country???), and I haven't heard anything suggesting that any of the guns were HIS, but they were his mother's, so no matter what mental health laws were in place, he would have slipped beneath all of the radar. However, he may also have had no access to a nonexistent arsenal owned by his mother, if SHE had been barred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    "the shooter comes in ans starts shooting
    Oh My God no, tell me it isn't true! Sloppyseconditis has become contagious. Oh, the humanity...
    BOSS: I'm sorry, but I'll have to lay you and Jack off. SUE: Can you just jack off? I feel like shit today.

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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    haven't we had lengthy discussions on prisons and the fact that we lock up so many people? We need proper rehabilitation methods not more incarceration. Some need to be incarcerated but not as many as we have.
    Hmmm...I thought I saved the part about Republicans hating everything to do with making mental health care available, which may have been in your post as well...OR NOT...but I think I lost it while trying to edit. I don't like quoting a lot of material which doesn't relate to what I'm trying to say.

    Anyway, incarceration sends these MILLIONS of people to the best crime school in the world. Among other things, once somebody gets out of prison, they know EXACTLY where to go, and how to procure an illegal gun, no matter how restricted they are. If somebody has their mind set on doing a massacre, they're not going to worry about the technicalities of illegality for firing a weapon that they wouldn't be allowed to use, because they'll have much bigger fish to fry after the massacre - if indeed they survive, rather than dying from their own suicide or suicide-by-cop.

    Mental health care is unquestionably important, and I've already said so in some other posts in this Forum and HT. Having a widely available and efdfective mental health care system, which is also affordable to the general population, will not stop all of the massacres, but I think it would stop at least one-half of them. The mentally ill person needs to have access to the care, as well as not quitting meds long enough for his/her mind to trainwreck, etc.

    A good mental health infrastructure would do a HELL of a lot more for the quality of life in the United States, over and above "just" stopping most of the massacres.

    Indeed, Republicans to HATE the possibility of a health care system for mental problems, because the model cannot easily be made into something that is actually insanely (sorry, but the word implies) PROFITABLE. Better to just let people's minds go entirely off the rails, because such services will never help create more billionaires, which is one of the main purposes for that Party.

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    the country I live in, where guns are highly restricted, and not a single child has been killed by a gun in a school, ever.
    I had to look it up, because I thought that the Tasmanian massacre in the 1990's was at a school. Wrong, it was at a historic site...
    Last edited by frankfrank; December 20th, 2012 at 06:53 PM.
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  45. #145
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Nice of you to make something up for our consideration.
    I didn't. You said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Given that the Constitution says it's for promoting the general welfare, the Second Amendment's desire to allow all citizens to be armed must have been considered a way to promote the general welfare. So there can't really be much constitutional objection to working within the meaning of the Second to make sure it's contributing to promoting the general welfare.
    It "must have been considered a way to promote the general welfare" At best you could hope to show an internal consistency within the document, but you don't show that; it appears you just assume it's a given. If it made it into the constitution, it's constitutional. It's a dead question not worth reexamining. Just do what it says by rote and all will be well.

    Which is what I took from your position, and which struck me as being very strange coming from a person who usually asserts that constitutions are not worth the vellum they're illuminated upon; they merely record the rights that flow from a proper understanding about the nature of humans. If constitutions are the mere shorthand notes that record greater timeless principles about the dignity of human relations, then it is the timeless principles themselves against which any clause should be periodically checked.

    And when compared to the ideals of self-protection, resisting tyranny, and resisting invasion, the Second Amendment passes that test…200 years ago. Those are the principles by which gun ownership derives any merit that would dignify its being mentioned in a constitution. But gun ownership is really just a tool for accomplishing those ends, not a principle in and of itself. All of those ideals might be better served today by other technologies or even other approaches entirely.

    The self-preserving, tyranny-defeating, invasion-resisting potential of the text message is probably greater than that of the gun.

    A well regulated telecommunications system being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to send and receive text messages shall not be infringed.

    THAT would do more to uphold the principled intent behind the second amendment than the two-hundred-year-old technology currently codified in its words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Guns have no "unintended consequences" unless they malfunction and blow up.

    No means not capable of stopping the threat is a valid provision for exercise of the right.
    The intended consequences of the gun are to foster self-protection, resist tyranny, and repel invasion. The actual consequences are occasionally to do those things, and often to undermine self-protection and innocent human life. The cost/benefit ratio has to be compared regularly to other possible approaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You live in an armless community; you'll wish you hadn't when one of these gunmen shows up to slaughter people.
    You really think that's an everyday possibility don't you? An extraordinary event that is realistically worth preparing for. Okay, I say you'll wish you had a fallout shelter one day. Then I say you'll wish you had a Slim Whitman record one day when the Martians attack.

    I tell you what, for all the money wasted on guns to address fictitious concerns, and for the all-guns-all-the-time approach to real concerns that actually exacerbates the problem, I would bring in a sort of Janet Reno with Tanks and Superpowers, and round everyone up, and have the government seize their guns in what the backwoods militias of Idaho would surely call a pogrom if they actually knew that word, and I would definitively stop the tremendous waste of blood, tears and treasure that is gun culture, so that humanity could focus itself on solving a real problem, like how to deflect a near earth asteroid. Or with any hope, even a comet.

    By the way, I want to dispense with your idea that it is not the state's job to protect us from wrongdoers. If I were robbed, I'm not left to my own devices to bring a prosecution for robbery on my own. If I were murdered, it is not up to me to have bequeathed an heir with the right to bring a prosecution for murder on my behalf. Legally, this is because the offences are not against me, but against the state. The state is aggrieved when I am murdered, and it acts to protect its interests. The only limitation on the state's power is that it must act justly. The state is an automatic, implicit, third party to the relationship between myself as the victim, and the murderer who spies me on the street.

    And that relationship does not exist only when a crime is committed, it precedes that, and we have evidence of it all the time. Governments do more than prosecute successful airplane hijackers, they take measures to foil their plots in advance. Government is an implicit party to the relationship between me as a private citizen and prospective victim, and the other person as a private citizen and prospective hijacker. Before there is even any connection between the two of us forged by a completed criminal act. They have the mandate and the authority and the obligation to protect us.
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

  46. #146
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Is it altogether possible that SHE was mentally ill, and therefore should have not been allowed legally to own weapons? It's been said that he wasn't seeking mental help (maybe because finding help is so close to impossible in this country???), and I haven't heard anything suggesting that any of the guns were HIS, but they were his mother's, so no matter what mental health laws were in place, he would have slipped beneath all of the radar. However, he may also have had no access to a nonexistent arsenal owned by his mother, if SHE had been barred.
    Actually i dont think she was. And he wasnt seeking help but his mother was looking to commit him because (I would surmise) he was not seeking help and she could see he had a problem.

    I would wager she was so comfortable around weapons that the idea never dawned on her that her son would snap at the idea of forced treatment and kill. So what i suggested earlier in the thread when me and Kuli discussed it was very simple. Once she made the first contact to try and commit the young man if a safety pamphlet left with her explaining that "often the mentally ill strike out violently. Not always but sometimes so therefore it is highly recommend that you secure all weapons in your home from the person you intend to take this action against. Further it is not just for your safety but also so the ill do not commit suicide before we can provide help. "

    That would be a simple informative type of document that could change many outcomes.

    I have gone further to suggest other steps after we strengthen NICS so that EVERY gun transaction requires a background check of the person receiving the weapon. Once that loop is closed then you have to prevent those who didnt buy the weapons like Lanza. The second amendment says that there should be no law created to inhibit possessing a weapon. Simply require all gun ranges or shooting areas to have to license person authorized to use the facility or grounds. Then just as the city does in many places. Make the discharge of a weapon illegal in side limits other than shooting ranges.

    Now you have not prevented persons from owning weapons but you have prevented anyone from target practice. You will not get good shooting video games... they do not kick and the weight and heft is simply not the same... you only learn to shoot by shooting.

    The constitution says nothing about where you may operate your god given right to bear arms.

    The final steps would be to make it so a high degree of accuracy in shooting requires practice. I.E. reduce magazine sizes, no full auto (which are unavailable right now anyhow) ...

    Those steps would make it so that every person possessing or operating a gun would be screened. That does not mean all violence stops. it just means that you reduce the propensity for mass murder with high kill ratios.
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  47. #147
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    I know quite a few teachers, and they would almost certainly be horrified at your suggestion that they be armed and trained for warfare in schools. Should we also have armed ushers in movie houses? Supermarket cashiers? Waitresses? Armed hosts at senior's bingo games? Armed clowns at children's birthday parties? Where does it end?
    Why not?

    The only reason to object to this is paranoia... which you show again.

    And I feel sorry for teachers who would rather just let their kids be targets instead of being able to protect them should the situation come.


    In many places around the country, one in twenty citizens is walking around armed now. Has it turned into the "wild west"? No. Has it increased the violent crime rate? No.

    Arming law-abiding citizens does not harm anyone -- on the contrary, by the record, it saves lives and property.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  48. #148
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah, speaking of wild fantasies, the "people are making their own guns" joke never gets old.

    And the 90 million should follow strict regulations, so that the annual 10 000 MURDERERS among them are weeded out. Same as we have regulations for drivers. Not anyone can drive, nor is your status as a driver sacred and guaranteed if you don't follow regulations. Other than some vaguely interpreted words some centuries old, there is NO reason guns should be any different, especially considering how much more directly dangerous they are.
    Driving is not a right.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  49. #149
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah, because what makes more sense than an annoyed adult surrounded by children 50 hours a week to be ARMED... It's not like teachers ever have nervous breakdowns... I am extremely disappointed that THIS is the course you selected in this particular discussion - that we need to ARM TEACHERS.

    And I imagine andysayshi doesn't think it acceptable that the shooter be able to shoot the adults at whim so he can go after the kids, but rather that the shooter should not be a shooter to begin with.
    The evidence from Europe, where guns are difficult to obtain, shows that there will always be shooters.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  50. #150
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    Re: Is America too PC to Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, I am anti-Second Amendment, which makes me pro-life. You are pro-death and pro-violence. I mean, if we're going to play populism here...

    There will always be everything dangerous ever invented. The response to that is NOT deregulation, it's the opposite.
    People go armed because they are ANTI-violence. To twist it the way you do is to show paranoia.

    BTW, citizens are not the property of the government, to be treated as statistics.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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