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  1. #151
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    And a monochrome worldview.
    A polarized monochrome worldview.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #152
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    So now since the republicans have shit upon their dear leader in making his conservative stance... NOW it comes to Harry Reid and President Obama to construct a bill that will gain the liberal democrat support in congress and add in a couple republicans. Mind you the Dems only need 17 to cross the aisle and the game is up.

    Silver argues that Boehner getting to a majority is near impossible. So I say why not eek out those republicans who are willing to compromise. there have been enough who have spoken up that you could get something accomplished.



    They are talking about a Senate approved bill getting pushed down to the house that allows the majority of America to not face tax increases, keeps unemployment benefits and one other thing... that both sides already agree on doing.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  3. #153
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You said that conservatives rely on logic and reason.
    .
    And so they do. If only the warped liberal world-view could comprehend that it would be great.

  4. #154
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    John Boner is certainly living up to his name........what a dick.......

  5. #155
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I rest my case.
    It's pretty sad. He's shown that he loves fallacies, but he can't see that means he's not a conservative.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    . He's shown that he loves fallacies, but he can't see that means he's not a conservative.
    Maybe you don't understand what a fallacy is.
    Maybe I'm a bit more than conservative, especially given that I think
    abortion is nobody's business.

    Still, snipe away to your heart's content if that's what turns you on.

  7. #157
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post


    It would be fun if the US finally got itself a multi-party system by virtue of the "Establishment Republicans" realizing that their only chance was to push the ejector seat button within their own half of the house.

    Three separate, fully-independent parties: Democrat, Republican, and Tea.
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

  8. #158
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It would be fun if the US finally got itself a multi-party system by virtue of the "Establishment Republicans" realizing that their only chance was to push the ejector seat button within their own half of the house.

    Three separate, fully-independent parties: Democrat, Republican, and Tea.
    Then some people might have the courage to elect some Greens, and a few actual Libertarians.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #159
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Part of me has been thinking, and still does, that perhaps it's time we quit postponing the inevitable and bite the bullet by going over the fiscal cliff.
    Telling it like it is.

  10. #160
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    That's the problem

    While it makes for wonderful evening news anger... the fiscal cliff is in reality a shallow slope. Unfortunately our fate is held by the shallowest of our citizens -- politicians.

    As far as legislating, the recipe hasn't changed all that much so in reality we have three parties and always have. The extreme left, The extreme right (now called teapartiers) and the blue and red middle that usually governs in purple majority. But I know what you mean.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Then some people might have the courage to elect some Greens, and a few actual Libertarians.
    Better yet, we might send some more members of the Tea Party to DC next time. Preferably a group of them with the balls to do what they were sent there to do: cut taxes and reduce the size and scope of government. The Tea Party is the last best hope of America.

  12. #162
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    If there were more than three people in the Tea Party with actual understanding of how politics work, and not just how to fire people up with empty slogans, maybe it would be more effective in doing anything beside derailing the political process. It's over anyway. It's a has-been part of the GOP.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    If there were more than three people in the Tea Party with actual understanding of how politics work, and not just how to fire people up with empty slogans, maybe it would be more effective in doing anything beside derailing the political process. It's over anyway. It's a has-been part of the GOP.
    Ignorance is such an ugly thing, especially when it's willful liberal ignorance of facts on the table.
    But as someone once said, 'the human mind is capable of infinite self-deception'.

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Better than stupidity, which can't be helped.
    And the further left one looks the more rampant the stupidity.

  15. #165
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Intransigence is the least desirable trait in government when it comes to fiscal matters.

    You cannot create a long term fiscal deal when, above all other factors of opposition, the majority party in the House has been cloven in two, forgetting the fact that the GOP does not control the Senate or the White House. Oh, and those Democrats were elected too.

    It's because of thinkers like you that we are in the mess we have now.
    This is re-posted for truth.

    The teaparty has single handed rendered the republican party irrelevant.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  16. #166
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Better yet, we might send some more members of the Tea Party to DC next time. Preferably a group of them with the balls to do what they were sent there to do: cut taxes and reduce the size and scope of government. The Tea Party is the last best hope of America.
    Only if you think that driving over the cliff is the best way to the valley.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The teaparty has single handed rendered the republican party irrelevant.
    And that's a very good thing. Perhaps in 2014 the Tea Party can replace even more of thos irrelevant Republicans with legislators who will have the balls to sand up to our dictator-in-chief.

  18. #168
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    This is re-posted for truth.

    The teaparty has single handed rendered the republican party irrelevant.
    And thereby neutered Congress.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #169
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    And that's a very good thing. Perhaps in 2014 the Tea Party can replace even more of thos irrelevant Republicans with legislators who will have the balls to sand up to our dictator-in-chief.
    You mean the tea party that loses seats left and right and whose own members are now running as "independents" so as not to be connected to it? I am sure it will WIN EVERYTHING!!! in 2014, yes
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You mean the tea party that loses seats left and right and whose own members are now running as "independents" so as not to be connected to it? I :
    I mean those 'tea party' candidates who were sent to DC to do a specific job and who immediately got sucked into the inherent corruption of that city and forgot the people who elected them.

  21. #171
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    And that's a very good thing. Perhaps in 2014 the Tea Party can replace even more of thos irrelevant Republicans with legislators who will have the balls to sand up to our dictator-in-chief.
    I doubt it. Folks who support racism, homophobia, failed government, failed legislatures and other such horrific ideas will go back into the wilderness of insignificance. I really did want them to take control of the republican party so that the party could ensure it was irrelevant for another ten years. Unfortunately you appear to endorse their mentally deficit policy stances.
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    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  22. #172
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Libertarianism: the initial ideology that the Tea Party was based on, was hijacked by the conservatives and added their beliefs to them and essentially corrupted them. That happened about 6 months after the 2010 election. You can't be anti-gay or anti-choice [I hate using "pro-life"] and a libertarian.

    The major problem with libertarianism is that in order to be effective at the federal level, they would have to be apart of something they hate: government intervention which both major parties love for different reasons.

  23. #173
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    I dunno if it was six months after. I also doubt sincerely that MANY of these folks had deep TP roots. This ideology sprang up in 2006. Not too many folks can establish themselves for national office in four years. I think most of the TP heroes were on the bandwagon. Then no neck Mcconnell said we oppose it all and that will win... and they did. that was their failure. Had they compromised and worked things towards their ideas they would have made so much more progress on cutting spending. They announced they would align themselves with republicans... actually at that point they thought they would take over the party. Unfortunately they learned the house has rules including seniority. You play by the rules or you get your dick squashed.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I doubt it. Folks who support racism, homophobia, failed government, failed legislatures and other such horrific ideas will go back into the wilderness of insignificance. I really did want them to take control of the republican party so that the party could ensure it was irrelevant for another ten years. Unfortunately you appear to endorse their mentally deficit policy stances.
    When did the tea party argue in favor of either racism or homophobia. The fight was about taxes and limiting goverment.

  25. #175
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    When did the tea party argue in favor of either racism or homophobia. The fight was about taxes and limiting goverment.
    Um, when they were racists and homophobes. We got the single most racist and homophobic Republican party platform in living memory. I didn't hear TPers opposing it. They are all for "Biblical values" after all, and there is no room for us homos in those.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  26. #176
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Rolyo, remember who you're talking to. He says that we already have equal rights: we all have the right to marry a woman. For him, there never was a fight for equal rights, just progressive whining. The Teabaggers are on the right track in Reardon's world: complete ignorance of civil rights. It's 100% taxes. After all, why should government be at all concerned with its citizens' well-being? and all that shit he spreads.

    Don't feed the troll.

  27. #177
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    in today's NY Post - the impact of the Fiscal Cliff on individuals and married couples

    I hope a certain moderator will allow this post to stand as is - he might think it's not opinionated enough - how ironic

    looks like it's a big mother fucking hit

    so that extra tax $ will probably be money which will be reallocated from savings and consumption to into the govt.'s pockets - and we all know how good they do with our money





    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...iVGmG4mbfcopON

  28. #178
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    That is just the money Uncle Sam needs to pstart paying some of these overdue water bills... maybe we can get the lights turned back on....

    honestly the thing that bothers me is the debt ceiling portion.

    How the fuck does the treasury say a month ago that we should hit the ceiling sometime in Feb and then this week all of a sudden decide we are out of money... Something smells funny and it aint Chances ironical posting.

    Geithner has predicted for months that the country would hit the debt ceiling by the end of December.
    is what this article says but the Republicans have been referring to Feb for when they can hold America's credit rating and markets hostage to spending cuts.

    Now I believe the proper way to reduce the debt ceiling is to legislate spending less money. Not to default on money we already borrowed. Sheer lunacy. Yet I also wonder what kind of land of make believe republicans have been living in if they keep saying and thinking the ceiling is met in Feb vice Dec......


    AHHHHH now I get it.... lol

    From the National Journal of all places. Wow if they are lambasting the republicans for playing with the debt ceiling then mood has finally shifted.

    Still we will continually meet a debt ceiling unless we start raising revenue.

    When Mitt Romney pays 14% and I pay 28% there is something wrong with America.
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  29. #179

    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    If the Senate would have passed a budget in the past 3-4 years we would not be in this mess.

    Harry Reid is the problem ... and Obama can't see beyond collecting more taxes.

  30. #180
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    ^ Oh this is pure nonsense and you know it.

  31. #181

    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    How is it nonsense? The House has passed a budget -- "dictator" Harry Reid refused to bring any up for a vote.

    ObamaCliff is coming!!

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Here ya go Jack... this is why your argument and many of the far lefty arguments around here are mute and ignorant.

    this was sent via Email and certainly does simplify the argument.

    “Fiscal Cliff” put in a much better perspective.

    Lesson # 1:

    * U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
    * Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
    * New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000
    * National debt: $14,271,000,000,000
    * Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000

    Let's now remove 8 zeros and pretend it's a household budget:

    * Annual family income: $21,700
    * Money the family spent: $38,200
    * New debt on the credit card: $16,500
    * Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
    * Total budget cuts so far: $38.50

    Got It ??.......OK now,
    Lesson # 2:

    Here's another way to look at the Debt Ceiling:

    Let's say, You come home from work and find
    there has been a sewer backup in your neighborhood....
    and your home has sewage all the way up to your ceilings.

    What do you think you should do ......

    Raise the ceilings, or remove the shit?
    So then you have to ask WHAT is it that has caused this vast imbalance? Is it medicare and Social Security that have their own funds and are not associated with the national debt or is it massive increases in spending for both Homeland security and the Military?

    The other question you have to ask is what kind of shovel is necessary to remove the shit in the example above? Is that shovel cutting out benefits from medicare or Social Security that do not contribute to that debt or to cut the items that do contribute i.e. the military and homeland security? OR if you decide we must have this level of military and Social security then you have to raise taxes. First on the rich and then after the economy recovers on the vast majority of us but slowly not all at once.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  33. #183
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    So to follow on if we go off the fiscal cliff it is the best thing that could happen to this country. It is not a staggered tax increase nor is it quality cuts versus course across the board cuts. But you know what it puts us back on track immediately. That is probably the best we can hope for.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  34. #184

    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    So to follow on if we go off the fiscal cliff it is the best thing that could happen to this country. It is not a staggered tax increase nor is it quality cuts versus course across the board cuts. But you know what it puts us back on track immediately. That is probably the best we can hope for.
    I agree. It will broaden the tax base so that a majority will be paying income tax. That should be the primary consideration. We cannot have an economy or a democracy where a majority vote for benefits but only a minority pay income tax.

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Right but of course republicans have been staunchly against the idea that government should increase spending to prevent massive depressions.

    Then add into it the additional irrational reality that say no new taxes ever.... the republican party was under the impression they could bankrupt the country and then use that to pull the rug out from under social programs. Fortunately for us they were defeated soundly and now the military will be cut and taxes will be increased whereas entitlements are hardly challenged.
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  36. #186
    Banned chance1's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    I missed the President's address - here's an article about it

    sounds like more BS

    Harry Reid and Mitch McConnell are now in charge - not sure who's worse

    the ONLY thing that is clear is that our govt. is broken - and for the majority of u here who love to blame Repubs for everything bad and praise the Dems for anything good .......... well ud be wrong

    Harry Reid has presided over a do nothing Senate and yesterday he gave a speech saying Boehner was a dictator and there would be no deal which prompted the markets to drop - nice move Harry

    and his latest is that "we hope to have a deal but it won't be perfect"

    we really should start over with a new senate and house - just like the Jets should start over with a new GM and coach

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/28/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1

  37. #187
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Harry Reid has presided over a do nothing Senate and yesterday he gave a speech saying Boehner was a dictator and there would be no deal which prompted the markets to drop - nice move Harry
    The Senate passed a budget cliff deal in July that protected 98% of America. If Boehner would allow it to be voted upon it would pass. He will not because then he would be out maneuvered.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The Senate passed a budget cliff deal in July that protected 98% of America. If Boehner would allow it to be voted upon it would pass. He will not because then he would be out maneuvered.
    I don't get the 98% thing - not at all - it's a bumper sticker

    51-48 and $250K is NOT the number it needs to be

    it is not the definition of wealthy

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Actually chance it is called demographics not bumper stickers.

    Please provide any proof you might be able to derive from ... well hell I will take anywhere... that says those earning greater than 250 thousand dollars a year are greater than two percent of america...

    Here I will start with a wiki links that uses Census bureau data and New York Times defined criteria of the classes... they actually define those above 250K as the top 1.5% from 2006 statistical data.

    What is hard not to comprehend?

    I understand you think it is unfair because a lot of people who make 250k live in the NYC area. That however makes it no less true that 98% of Americans earn less than that....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Actually chance it is called demographics not bumper stickers.

    Please provide any proof you might be able to derive from ... well hell I will take anywhere... that says those earning greater than 250 thousand dollars a year are greater than two percent of america...

    Here I will start with a wiki links that uses Census bureau data and New York Times defined criteria of the classes... they actually define those above 250K as the top 1.5% from 2006 statistical data.

    What is hard not to comprehend?

    I understand you think it is unfair because a lot of people who make 250k live in the NYC area. That however makes it no less true that 98% of Americans earn less than that....
    i'm not debating the accuracy of the 98% figure - i'm sure the math is correct

    and it's great for a politician to be able to say the 1% or the 2% ....... in this case in a very negative way ..... they're beating the system, etc.

    Obama went to $400K in this first go round with Boehner - he'll have to do it again

    and w/o some kind of blueprint to reign in spending, it doesn't really matter anyway

    i don't think taxes are THE ANSWER - economic growth is coupled with reasonable but necessary spending cuts including the military AND entitlements

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    See entitlements usually means Social Security and Medicare both of which have issues but have nothing to do with our budget excesses. NOTHING.

    So we do agree... taxes need to be raised and spending needs to be cut on the military and other government departments.

    Where we diverge is you argue this 250K thing as if somehow they will remain immune. We must raise taxes on the 2% to start the process but eventually taxes should raise for every human being in the US. SO i see no issue with the 250 starting point. Eventually it needs to go up on the vast majority of America or we will never pay our debts down.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    See entitlements usually means Social Security and Medicare both of which have issues but have nothing to do with our budget excesses. NOTHING.

    So we do agree... taxes need to be raised and spending needs to be cut on the military and other government departments.

    Where we diverge is you argue this 250K thing as if somehow they will remain immune. We must raise taxes on the 2% to start the process but eventually taxes should raise for every human being in the US. SO i see no issue with the 250 starting point. Eventually it needs to go up on the vast majority of America or we will never pay our debts down.
    immune ? no just not having their taxes raised

    given the # of taxes - sales, state, city, etc. - they're hardly immune

    where would u put SS and medicare ? what "problem bucket?"

    paying our debts down will be more easily managed by an economy that is growing

    many dems agree - many leading dems agree that the 250k figure is arbitrary and TOO LOW

    schumer, pelosi, hoyer and many others - sorry i don't have the link but i will find it

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    immune ? no just not having their taxes raised

    given the # of taxes - sales, state, city, etc. - they're hardly immune

    where would u put SS and medicare ? what "problem bucket?"

    paying our debts down will be more easily managed by an economy that is growing

    many dems agree - many leading dems agree that the 250k figure is arbitrary and TOO LOW

    schumer, pelosi, hoyer and many others - sorry i don't have the link but i will find it
    Feel free to find your link.... alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllllll people should have their taxes rasied but only after republican meddling stops the recovery of America's economy. Once the economy is strong they should incrementally increase taxes on everyone so as not to make it a single death blow to the economy.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i'm not debating the accuracy of the 98% figure - i'm sure the math is correct

    and it's great for a politician to be able to say the 1% or the 2% ....... in this case in a very negative way ..... they're beating the system, etc.

    Obama went to $400K in this first go round with Boehner - he'll have to do it again

    and w/o some kind of blueprint to reign in spending, it doesn't really matter anyway

    i don't think taxes are THE ANSWER - economic growth is coupled with reasonable but necessary spending cuts including the military AND entitlements
    I don't actually dispute the GENERAL things you are saying here, Chance. My issue with Republicans and the general conservative viewpoint on taxation and solving deficits is that they have a blind, dogmatic belief that lowering taxes at any time regardless of the circumstances (i.e. two wars were just started or we're already in a deficit) is the sole and reliable precursor of economic growth.

    Economic growth can be, literally, trends and fads that spawn a lemming effect and turn into a worldwide boom. They aren't necessarily created, spurred on or initiated by simply hacking a percentage in the tax code. Look at the dot com boom. Look at the housing boom. None of that was people going "well shit taxes went down marginally somewhere, let's all create a speculative industry boom out of nothing." They were basically unforeseen events. Or trends, fads. They weren't long-term sustainable forms of economic growth but few to no booms are.

    Long story short, this blind belief that endlessly cutting taxes (I guess till we get to 0.00% ?) commensurately creates economic growth is fiction, it's economic religion. Some of our biggest booms were under much, much higher tax rates than today. Mark Cuban has stated openly that for the incredibly wealthy like himself, wiggling over a couple percent isn't something they even NOTICE in terms of what they go spend money on or whether or not they choose to invest money in businesses or creating jobs.

    So if you state (and I agree with it) that this goes beyond taxes, spending and that we need economic growth-- then the question is what do you believe in supporting, promoting, or investing in in order to create that. The only thing Republicans seem to believe in investing in is defense spending and unless you believe there's somehow some untapped huge private sector nation-wide boom waiting to happen from defense spending then that idea isn't going to cut it. Obama talks a lot about incentives programs for both education and start-ups for green energy industries, but it tends to get drowned out and few people talk about it. What's your plan?

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    From the National Journal of all places. Wow if they are lambasting the republicans for playing with the debt ceiling then mood has finally shifted.

    Still we will continually meet a debt ceiling unless we start raising revenue.

    When Mitt Romney pays 14% and I pay 28% there is something wrong with America.
    If you pay 28%, he should be paying 38%.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I don't actually dispute the GENERAL things you are saying here, Chance. My issue with Republicans and the general conservative viewpoint on taxation and solving deficits is that they have a blind, dogmatic belief that lowering taxes at any time regardless of the circumstances (i.e. two wars were just started or we're already in a deficit) is the sole and reliable precursor of economic growth.

    Economic growth can be, literally, trends and fads that spawn a lemming effect and turn into a worldwide boom. They aren't necessarily created, spurred on or initiated by simply hacking a percentage in the tax code. Look at the dot com boom. Look at the housing boom. None of that was people going "well shit taxes went down marginally somewhere, let's all create a speculative industry boom out of nothing." They were basically unforeseen events. Or trends, fads. They weren't long-term sustainable forms of economic growth but few to no booms are.

    Long story short, this blind belief that endlessly cutting taxes (I guess till we get to 0.00% ?) commensurately creates economic growth is fiction, it's economic religion. Some of our biggest booms were under much, much higher tax rates than today. Mark Cuban has stated openly that for the incredibly wealthy like himself, wiggling over a couple percent isn't something they even NOTICE in terms of what they go spend money on or whether or not they choose to invest money in businesses or creating jobs.

    So if you state (and I agree with it) that this goes beyond taxes, spending and that we need economic growth-- then the question is what do you believe in supporting, promoting, or investing in in order to create that. The only thing Republicans seem to believe in investing in is defense spending and unless you believe there's somehow some untapped huge private sector nation-wide boom waiting to happen from defense spending then that idea isn't going to cut it. Obama talks a lot about incentives programs for both education and start-ups for green energy industries, but it tends to get drowned out and few people talk about it. What's your plan?
    Too much two-dimensional thinking is the problem -- I sometimes think no one who can't do linear algebra shouldn't be eligible for Congress, because they can't possibly have the ability to picture the way things really work. The fact is that the Laffer Curve is a special case that really does work -- but you can only tell when it's going to by considering a batch of other variables, not just the two the classic graph rests on. We're nowhere near the conditions required for Laffer's notion to apply (at the very least it requires a much better humming economy).

    Mark Cuban isn't alone. Warren Buffet was one who said that people earning the figures he does wouldn't really notice the difference between a 25% tax and a 35% tax, because it would have no real impact on the way they do things either personally or in business, except maybe to sharpen their skills a little; the only thing that really matters is an even playing field. And that reflects what I've found in my economic research in the last few years while on JUB: any tax rate under a third for the very wealthy doesn't affect jobs or productivity enough to matter. What does matter is the rate on those at the bottom, because a thousand dollars less in taxes is a thousand dollars pumped right into the economy, because every one of those dollars will get spent immediately as it didn't get taken by taxes.

    And we need incentives -- under the right conditions, those do yield more revenue than they cost. Green energy is a good area, as is health care. On top of those we could use some real stimulus spending, spending on transportation especially -- repairing bridges long in need would be fair, but identifying highways so badly gone they're inhibiting commerce, and others where upgrades would enhance commerce, are the best way to go.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  47. #197

    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    We cannot have a successful economy or democracy when more than half the voters are immune from the taxes and spending for which they vote. That is the most important thing at this point. We can survive another recession.

  48. #198

    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Too much two-dimensional thinking is the problem -- I sometimes think no one who can't do linear algebra shouldn't be eligible for Congress, because they can't possibly have the ability to picture the way things really work. The fact is that the Laffer Curve is a special case that really does work -- but you can only tell when it's going to by considering a batch of other variables, not just the two the classic graph rests on. We're nowhere near the conditions required for Laffer's notion to apply (at the very least it requires a much better humming economy).

    Mark Cuban isn't alone. Warren Buffet was one who said that people earning the figures he does wouldn't really notice the difference between a 25% tax and a 35% tax, because it would have no real impact on the way they do things either personally or in business, except maybe to sharpen their skills a little; the only thing that really matters is an even playing field. And that reflects what I've found in my economic research in the last few years while on JUB: any tax rate under a third for the very wealthy doesn't affect jobs or productivity enough to matter. What does matter is the rate on those at the bottom, because a thousand dollars less in taxes is a thousand dollars pumped right into the economy, because every one of those dollars will get spent immediately as it didn't get taken by taxes.

    And we need incentives -- under the right conditions, those do yield more revenue than they cost. Green energy is a good area, as is health care. On top of those we could use some real stimulus spending, spending on transportation especially -- repairing bridges long in need would be fair, but identifying highways so badly gone they're inhibiting commerce, and others where upgrades would enhance commerce, are the best way to go.
    I've never understood the liberal love affair with Warren Buffet. Buffet runs an extremely aggressive organization that buys up companies, controls and destroys some with an iron fist (remind anyone of how Romney was described), and destroys competition -- not the usual things that liberals like to call their own.

    Locally Buffet's company Nebraska Furniture Mart has killed off more small, family owned businesses than Walmart ever did -- and yet liberals hold him up as one of their prophets.

    Buffet is always complaining about the rich not paying enough taxes -- he and his liberal rich buddies can pay more -- no one is stopping them.

    Any liberal care to explain?

  49. #199

    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I've never understood the liberal love affair with Warren Buffet. Buffet runs an extremely aggressive organization that buys up companies, controls and destroys some with an iron fist (remind anyone of how Romney was described), and destroys competition -- not the usual things that liberals like to call their own.

    Locally Buffet's company Nebraska Furniture Mart has killed off more small, family owned businesses than Walmart ever did -- and yet liberals hold him up as one of their prophets.

    Buffet is always complaining about the rich not paying enough taxes -- he and his liberal rich buddies can pay more -- no one is stopping them.

    Any liberal care to explain?
    I am not a fan of Buffet's but I do not agree he has intentionally bought and destroyed companies, and Nebraska Furniture destroyed the competition before Berkshire Hathaway bought it. The Blumkins owned it then.
    But he is a world class hypocrite. He is worth 40 billion or so in Berkshire stock but pays very little income tax because the company has never paid a dividend. No dividends to tax. His salary is a mere 100,000 or so. Now he has started to give stock to charities he can claim a deduction for the appreciated value. He wants high spending by the government, but our money, not his. He likes the estate tax but does not intend to pay much as he gives his stock to charity.

  50. #200

    Re: Getting Closer To A Fiscal Cliff Deal

    ^^
    Buffet bought 80% the store in 1983 and he started it's aggressive campaign to crush it's competition.

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