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  1. #51
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
    Richard Henry Lee
    writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
    Zachariah Johnson
    Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

    "… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
    Philadelphia Federal Gazette
    June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
    Article on the Bill of Rights

    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
    Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"
    The Founding Fathers on Arms

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
    George Washington
    First President of the United States

    "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
    Thomas Paine

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    Richard Henry Lee
    American Statesman, 1788

    "The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot

    "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot

    "Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
    Thomas Jefferson
    Third President of the United States

    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
    Thomas Jefferson
    letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

    "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    Alexander Hamilton
    The Federalist Papers at 184-8

    There is a lot of talk about what the founding fathers did or did not mean, why do we not simply ask them by reading their own words? How about some references to actual text if you think you know what the drafters meant, there was after all numerous discussions in the media of the time about what the constitution meant so its out there if you want to find it.
    Last edited by Stardreamer; December 18th, 2012 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Added personal comment
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  2. #52
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Incidentally, the "ancient right of Englishmen" as asserted in the Bill of Rights passed after the Glorious Revolution was not for citizens to have arms, it was for the right of Parliament to allow citizens, pursuant to its own decision-making, to have arms or not. And only the Protestant ones at that.

    The Ancient Right of the Englishmen was to have a Parliament that could decide whether individuals were allowed weapons, and not a right to have weapons.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  3. #53
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Gore v Bush wasn't addressing a constitutional right
    I am just saying when the need is great enough the SCOTUS can act rapidly. They have also repealed wrong headed Constitutional laws previously. So that makes the "they already ruled" argument intellectually dishonest when it comes to judging the issue in a public discussion such as this.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  4. #54
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    The SC also found that black people were not protected by the constitution.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  5. #55
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I am just saying when the need is great enough the SCOTUS can act rapidly. They have also repealed wrong headed Constitutional laws previously. So that makes the "they already ruled" argument intellectually dishonest when it comes to judging the issue in a public discussion such as this.
    Yes and no, they have made wrong rulings before and eventually corrected them but not often and not quickly. The more case law piles up on the subject the more inertia there is to changing direction. As I said the process is intentionally slow and difficult to change. And until such a sea change is in the offing their ruling stands as the law of the land until they or the amendment process changes it.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  6. #56
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I am quite aware of the definition of "militia," and certainly so were the framers of the constitution. You are trying to say they meant something other than "militia" when they said "militia." I think they meant "militia."

    In fact, the term is even repeated in Amendment V, in which context it clearly refers to military service. I'm not sure how they could have been more clear about this.
    Plainly you aren't.

    The militia is the whole people -- that's what all the writings of the time, and the Founding Fathers, and the Framers, agreed. It is distinct from the military, which is also clear in the Fifth Amendment, because there the militia is distinguished from the military services; that is, it is not "the land or naval forces".

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Nonsense. There is no other example within the Bill of Rights of a "reason" being specified as to why that right is necessary.

    Not one. Not anywhere. That would be rather unprofessional writing in a document of law. Rights are spelled out as rights. Not "This right is granted because..."
    It's not nonsense -- that's what that kind of clause does: gives a reason. Check the grammar of the day, the way five justices did on the Heller decision. And read the documents surrounding the debate on ratification -- you can find it plainly stated that this is just one reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    In fact, the framers of the Constitution were careful not only to specify that the right to bear arms was being granted for service in a militia, but they further specified that such militia must be "well regulated" (non-vigilante) to dispel the notion that it was okay for people to own guns for any purpose whatsoever.
    "Well-regulated" does not mean "non-vigilante" (whatever you mean by that). It means, as George Washington set forth in dispatches to Congress early in the war, well trained, of good discipline, fair shots, with good morale, etc. It has nothing to do with government authority -- obviously, since these amendments are put there to be sure government authority is restrained.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I'm not sure how they could have been more clear as to what meaning they were trying to convey. I know that we have many people today (including some justices on the Supreme Court) who are certain that the framers meant to say that citizens have a right to chase down people they perceive as threatening and shoot them. But, people seem to have an ability to read into documents whatever meaning they would prefer it specified.
    When I first started my research on the Second Amendment, I didn't care what it specified; I'd never paid it much notice. But it didn't take more than a thousand pages or so of documents written at the time to see that they meant an individual right, totally apart from the government, and that furthermore the militia was completely separate from the government and not under its authority save in time of war or emergency, and that the main point was to ensure that the right to insurrection was kept viable.

    Nowhere before the late nineteenth century is any other view found.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #57
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
    Richard Henry Lee
    writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
    Zachariah Johnson
    Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

    "… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
    Philadelphia Federal Gazette
    June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
    Article on the Bill of Rights

    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
    Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"
    The Founding Fathers on Arms

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
    George Washington
    First President of the United States

    "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
    Thomas Paine

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    Richard Henry Lee
    American Statesman, 1788

    "The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot

    "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot

    "Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
    Thomas Jefferson
    Third President of the United States

    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
    Thomas Jefferson
    letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

    "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    Alexander Hamilton
    The Federalist Papers at 184-8

    There is a lot of talk about what the founding fathers did or did not mean, why do we not simply ask them by reading their own words? How about some references to actual text if you think you know what the drafters meant, there was after all numerous discussions in the media of the time about what the constitution meant so its out there if you want to find it.
    Good list -- makes the point.

    BTW, nice that you pointed out in your earlier post the language of US law, which derives directly from the terminology I've been explaining.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #58
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Given that the grammar of the phrase was construed in two different forms, and given that the language of the day was less regularised, I don't think one can discard the opening bit as prefatory based on a grammatical analysis purporting to show that.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  9. #59
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Given that the grammar of the phrase was construed in two different forms, and given that the language of the day was less regularised, I don't think one can discard the opening bit as prefatory based on a grammatical analysis purporting to show that.
    It was never "construed in two different forms" until late in the nineteenth century.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #60
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Websters definition has no meaning in US law.
    The definition of words has no meaning in US law?

    I'm going to let you think about that statement for a while.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

    "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves "
    Richard Henry Lee
    writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
    Zachariah Johnson
    Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

    " the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
    Philadelphia Federal Gazette
    June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
    Article on the Bill of Rights

    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; "
    Samuel Adams
    quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"
    The Founding Fathers on Arms

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
    George Washington
    First President of the United States

    "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
    Thomas Paine

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    Richard Henry Lee
    American Statesman, 1788

    "The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot

    "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
    Patrick Henry
    American Patriot

    "Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
    Thomas Jefferson
    Third President of the United States

    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; "
    Thomas Jefferson
    letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

    "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
    Alexander Hamilton
    The Federalist Papers at 184-8

    There is a lot of talk about what the founding fathers did or did not mean, why do we not simply ask them by reading their own words? How about some references to actual text if you think you know what the drafters meant, there was after all numerous discussions in the media of the time about what the constitution meant so its out there if you want to find it.

    You seem to be trying to claim that the Constitution was written with the flowery and metaphorical rhetoric of speeches, not the real meaning of words.

    I wonder if you think there really was an iron curtain hanging along the border of east and west Europe?

    Do you believe that cats and dogs really fall out of the sky when it rains hard?

    Is silence really deafening?

  11. #61
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The definition of words has no meaning in US law?

    I'm going to let you think about that statement for a while.
    You think about it -- you're the one who made it.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    You seem to be trying to claim that the Constitution was written with the flowery and metaphorical rhetoric of speeches, not the real meaning of words.

    I wonder if you think there really was an iron curtain hanging along the border of east and west Europe?

    Do you believe that cats and dogs really fall out of the sky when it rains hard?

    Is silence really deafening?
    You seem to not understand the meaning of words.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #62
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The definition of words has no meaning in US law?

    I'm going to let you think about that statement for a while.
    The definition of a word in Webster's dictionary has little meaning in the US law, yes. What US law does and does not mean is codified in the LAW as in the US Code. If there is a disagreement between those two sources, which do you think is going to take precedence in the courts?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  13. #63
    JUB Addict Peterdragin's Avatar
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    Re: What exactly is the right protected by the 2nd Amendment

    Repeal the 2nd amendment?

    one of the worst tragedies in life is being forgotten by some one you can never forget!

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