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  1. #1
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    Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    I find this staggering, and I've only just realised it.

    What exactly is the point of ANY President on a campaign trail making pledges if EVERY single thing he says is just going to be eventually arbitrated by the Supreme Court?

    Does a President of the United States ACTUALLY hold any REAL power?

    For everything I'm hearing and reading, why don't you just remove the Executive branch? They seem to be mere arbitrators and spokespeople and commentators, INCLUDING the President.

    What is the point if the Supreme Court is already running the entire country?

    To put THAT amount of power into the hands of nine unelected people is just really insane and ridiculous.

    It makes the United States look less like a democracy, more like a judicial dictatorship.

    I realise this is a bit of a rant, and I fully expect to be severly 'corrected' () for my impertinence but this is really the way I'm seeing it right now.

    *ducks for cover and hides*

  2. #2
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Is it true that the president has the right to remove them ?
    I'm no expert in anything LOL


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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Well you might want to read up on how the government of the US actually was designed with three equal branches of Executive, Legislative and Judiciary.

    And the concept of Checks and Balances.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    What I see is all the power resting with the Judiciary, with them setting all the rules and parameters that the Legislative operates under and overruling them at any point, and with the Executive simply being temporary administrators and directors.

    'Checks and Balances' has become 'Legal Autocracy'.

  5. #5
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    checks and balances.

    in its simplest form, Congress passes laws, the Executive enforces them, and the Supreme Court decides whether or not those laws are actually Constitutional.

    that third step is a pretty big one, and in theory, serves to curb the other two branches from just doing whatever they want.

    the President (as we've seen with Obama) can decide not to enforce laws. in modern times, the Executive is also often the driving force in getting Congress to pass laws when his party is in control.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    But the critical difference is that both the Executive and Congress are chosen to the people, and are elected and can be replaced by popular vote. The Supreme Court can NOT.

    The Supreme Court answers to no-one, is accountable to no-one, and frankly could pass ANYTHING they wished, and neither President nor Congress could stop them or overrule them.

    How can THAT be considered anything other than the United States being a puppet of the Supreme Court?

  7. #7
    loki81
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    the Supreme Court can only rule on laws already passed. they couldn't arbitrarily declare a new law to exist without a case before the Court to decide on.

    Congress also has the option to:

    -pass a constitutional amendment
    -add more seats to the Supreme Court (thus installing new judges into a majority if existing judges were widely deemed to be out of control, although no President has tried that since the 1940's and it would take a bipartisan effort)
    -amend existing laws, rather than passing new ones
    -pass the overturned laws again, addressing whatever Constitutional issue the SC found
    -impeach a Supreme Court justice if they were found to be in violation of their duties to uphold the Constitution (again, another extreme step that would require bipartisan support)

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    ^ Ah I see, OK.

    That takes the power back to Congress.

    Although that assumes bipartisan support - it wouldn't be a solution if the Supreme Court became radically shifted politically to the right (or left) say 7-2 or 8-1 in their viewpoints. Half of Congress would always prevent redress or action.

  9. #9
    loki81
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    if it was that far against the will of the people, the power of elections would give the people a chance to overturn Congress every 2 years.

    as a short-term measure, the Executive could also just not enforce laws. (let's say, the Supreme Court overturned Row v Wade and made abortion illegal... within reason, the President could tell the DoJ not to pursue those cases)

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    .
    http://www.infoplease.com/us/supreme...ases/ar20.html

    Marbury v. Madison needs to be repealed. SCOTUS = "legislators in robes."

    Chief Justice Marshall's ruling interpreted the Constitution to mean that the Supreme Court had the power of judicial review. That is, the Court had the right to review acts of Congress and, by extension, actions of the President. If the Court found that a law was unconstitutional, it could overrule the law.

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  11. #11
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    I think the power to run the country is equal to the power to pass its laws, and the power to review those laws is also perhaps equal. The Constitution is nicely balanced, although the Supreme Court doesn't review that many statutes in a given year, and many of those laws challenged are upheld anyway. Nevertheless, there are some who say judicial review constitutes kritarchy. I don't see it, because the supremes do not have any initiative executive power whatsoever.
    Last edited by JockBoy87; December 17th, 2012 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    This is something I learned in civics. Most Americans think the President/executive branch is the most powerful in the government but the Supreme Court/judicial branch is. You look at the state level and you see very corrupt courts compared to the legislative branches.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    The founding fathers created a judiciary system that was free of political motives and personal favors so as to give an added check of legality over the political branches.

    It is a popular yet inaccurate belief that the Presidential branch is the most powerful of the three. They are all roughly equal and at times one overshadows the others.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Any Supreme Court is bound by the constitution of any such country to delete parts of laws that do not pass constitutional muster. It is the guarantor of freedom, preventing some crackpot from running wild over the country just because he happened to do well in an election. So the court should always rule against a law that runs afowl of the constitution. If an elected executive or legislator doesn't like it, they can use their powers to propose a constitutional amendment and see if it passes. They can't just declare that a law is constitutional enough for their liking and carry on unaccountable.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    .
    http://www.infoplease.com/us/supreme...ases/ar20.html

    Marbury v. Madison needs to be repealed. SCOTUS = "legislators in robes."
    Lunacy. Sheer lunacy.

  16. #16
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    .
    http://www.infoplease.com/us/supreme...ases/ar20.html

    Marbury v. Madison needs to be repealed. SCOTUS = "legislators in robes."
    Section 2 of Article III begins with a blockbuster statement giving the Supreme Court immense power over "all cases in law and equity..."

    More importantly, the Constitution says that power extends "under this Constitution," and not just under "laws of the United States."

    If the Constitution had only said "laws," and not "under this constitution," the Supreme Court would not have the power of review.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    The United Kingdom is actually pretty alone in the Western World by not having a highest judicial body that can review Acts of Parliament, mostly owing to the fact that the UK has a so called "unwritten constitution", or as per Wikipedia: "No Act of Parliament can be unconstitutional, for the law of the land knows not the word or the idea."

    Supreme or Constitutional Courts and a single written constitution are actually the norm in western democracies. There is nothing wrong with them, constitutional review is a healthy function in a democracy. The "problem" in the United States is actually the difficulty of amending the constitution, the age of the constitution which makes is pretty dated in some respects, and the overall structure of the constitution. This is not helped by the intensely partisan character of US politics and the way Supreme Court justices are chosen. Still, somebody HAS to review laws and actions of the executive if they are constitutional, and this power does not belong in the hands of congress or the president.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...outers-speech/

    A very good article laying out the context for this discussion; where the authority lies for overturning executive decisions, etc. Justice Souter demolishes the notion of constitution-as-supernatural-oracle, and shows the court's obligation to act.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Lunacy. Sheer lunacy.
    Regarding Scalia, Roberts, Thomas and Alito, lunacy might be a little strong. Ultra-conservative, yes though. Citizens' United needs to be repealed (or amended) too.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Any Supreme Court is bound by the constitution of any such country to delete parts of laws that do not pass constitutional muster. It is the guarantor of freedom, preventing some crackpot from running wild over the country just because he happened to do well in an election. So the court should always rule against a law that runs afowl of the constitution. If an elected executive or legislator doesn't like it, they can use their powers to propose a constitutional amendment and see if it passes. They can't just declare that a law is constitutional enough for their liking and carry on unaccountable.
    \
    However, as entrenched as the United States is with the TWO PARTY SYSTEM, and no foreseeable way for a third Party to make significant inroads in Washington,I can easily imagine a one-party DYNASTY coming into being. That one-party dynasty has already been effectively installed in the House of Representatives where, because of a preponderance of Republican state legislatures after the 2010 elections, many states were able to redraw state Congressional districts so that they would send a maximum number of Republicans to Washington.

    A good example of this exists right upon the very small spot of earth that I call my own; before the post-2010 redistricting I was living in a District which was very obviously drawn Democratic (the Illinois 17th Congressional District); the redistricting drastically changed this District into one guaranteed to elect Republicans for all of eternity (the Illinois 18th Congressional District). For example, the new District extends to Peoria, but has conveniently divided the city, excising the "black neighborhoods" in favor of a different District.

    Form enough of a dynasty that the same Party has "their" people in the White House for 20 years or longer, a time long enough to make 2, 3, perhaps as many as six or seven Supreme Count appointments, and most likely those appointments will result in the SCOTUS giving the green light to the most egregious Constitutional violations, if the violations are in favor of "their" Party. Right now, the Court could very easily have ruled that voting rights and civil rights were STATE issues not federal...if Romney had been elected and appointed Rick Santorum as a replacement Justice in 2014 or something. The same SCOTUS could rule that a state law in South Carolina (or somewhere) mandating life in prison for homosexual behaviour is OK because it's an assertion of States Rights, after having heard a previous case allowing them to reverse their ruling that sodomy cannot be regulated.

    Thankfully it is the SENATE, not the House of Representatives, which confirms SCOTUS Justice appointments. The Senate cannot be manipulated by redistricting, because all Senators are elected in AT-LARGE, STATEWIDE elections.

    I understand currently the Court is going to hear SOMETHING about the Civil Rights Act of 1965, and even without any Romney appointments I don't trust them at this point.

    A mighty astute assessment by somebody not from the United States in any way - I believe your concerns are very appropriate. I hope that my scenario doesn't happen - because I see a Republican autocracy setting up much easier than a Democratic one - as "they" have most of the money and nearly all the media. They don't have the Internet...yet...but you and I (and most of us) know that if they had control, they would do their best to push incredible restrictions on the Internet with copyright and such - perhaps in JUB one post would only need to gratuitously mention Monsanto and that could be their grounds to take the entire site down. Of course it would only be enforced selectively, at their whim...

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    Regarding Scalia, Roberts, Thomas and Alito, lunacy might be a little strong. Ultra-conservative, yes though. Citizens' United needs to be repealed (or amended) too.
    That's the scary part. You can already EFFORTLESSLY list four of them. All they needed was one more. Fortunately that is unlikely in the next few years, unless a stealth Justice gets by Obama and gets appointed - much like Souter managed to trick George H. W. Bush and the Senate and get his liberal seat confirmed in the SCOTUS.
    Last edited by frankfrank; December 18th, 2012 at 12:15 PM.
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    IMHO a supreme court is one of the most important tools/powers in a democracy.
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    .
    http://www.infoplease.com/us/supreme...ases/ar20.html

    Marbury v. Madison needs to be repealed. SCOTUS = "legislators in robes."
    The courts can't "legislate" anything. If they sent legiislation to congress or made it up out of whole cloth - IT WOULD NOT BE LEGALLY BINDING.

    All they can do is rule on legislation already passed by someone else. If laws are so poorly written that judicial opinion is required to illuminate it, that isn't the fault of the Supreme Court.

    For example the SC can't by judicial fiat declare Gay Marriage be the law of the land, they can't ban it either - they can however say whether laws ALREADY passes for or against are compatible with the constitution, which is a very powerful thing, but even then they can't just swoop in and decide, someone has to push the laws up the ladder to them.
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Any Supreme Court is bound by the constitution of any such country to delete parts of laws that do not pass constitutional muster. It is the guarantor of freedom, preventing some crackpot from running wild over the country just because he happened to do well in an election. So the court should always rule against a law that runs afowl of the constitution. If an elected executive or legislator doesn't like it, they can use their powers to propose a constitutional amendment and see if it passes. They can't just declare that a law is constitutional enough for their liking and carry on unaccountable.
    Yes. They reigned in FDR, though only to an extent because he ran Congress and Congress would have just kept confirming appointments until he had a majority ready to approve anything he wanted to do.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...outers-speech/

    A very good article laying out the context for this discussion; where the authority lies for overturning executive decisions, etc. Justice Souter demolishes the notion of constitution-as-supernatural-oracle, and shows the court's obligation to act.
    He does no such thing -- he merely reminds us all that oracles, even supposedly divine ones such as at Delphi, need to be thought about to make the application to our lives.

    As an example, how often in debates about the Second Amendment do we hear reference to Article I Section 8, where Congress is granted a certain amount of authority over the militia? If the Second Amendment stood alone, the text leaves Congress no room at all to even so much as tell citizens they can't go around with an actual assault rifle slung over a shoulder -- but with Article I Sec 8 in play, the game changes.

    And it changes even if the Constitution is an oracle, because both statements are there. In fact, if the Constitution is an oracle, then to consider the Second Amendment as if it stood alone is wrong, because it ignores the rest of the oracle. And that is the Justice's point.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #25
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    I think this discussion between members from different countries may encounter confusion. In the United States, Congress, unlike parliament in the UK or elsewhere, is not the supreme lawmaker. Supreme lawmaking power rests with 75% of states to amend the US Constitution. As one might expect, that's extraordinarily difficult to do, so we have a legislature to take care of every day business. However, that runs into the problem of conflict with the supreme law, i.e. the Constitution. Congress may absolutely not run afoul of it.

    Then, without judicial review, the Constitution would be meaningless as the "supreme law of the land." Why? Congress could pass any law, even regarding the structure of government itself, without regard to it and it would have to be obeyed. Note, parliamentary systems operate this way.

    The alternative in a constitutional republic would be for the executive branch of government to ignore laws it deems unconstitutional. The difference in a judiciary is that judges are extremely erudite and moral people, who have been confirmed usually by an overwhelming majority of the Senate, and nominally not influenced by politics.
    Last edited by JockBoy87; December 22nd, 2012 at 08:08 AM.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I think this discussion between members from different countries may encounter confusion. In the United States, Congress, unlike parliament in the UK or elsewhere, is not the supreme lawmaker. Supreme lawmaking power rests with 75% of states to amend the US Constitution. As one might expect, that's extraordinarily difficult to do, so we have a legislature to take care of every day business. However, that runs into the problem of conflict with the supreme law, i.e. the Constitution. Congress may absolutely not run afoul of it.

    Then, without judicial review, the Constitution would be meaningless as the "supreme law of the land." Why? Congress could pass any law, even regarding the structure of government itself, without regard to it and it would have to be obeyed. Note, parliamentary systems operate this way.

    The alternative in a constitutional republic would be for the executive branch of government to ignore laws it deems unconstitutional. The difference in a judiciary is that judges are extremely erudite and moral people, who have been confirmed usually by an overwhelming majority of the Senate, and nominally not influenced by politics.
    That point about the structure of the US, and the resulting necessity for judicial review, is very useful. However it also applies to Canada, where for some purposes the threshold is 75%, and others it is unanimity of Parliament and the provinces. Australia looks similar but is closer to the original Westminster model by my review; when it wants to play "nice federal partner" the Commonwealth Government can pretend it isn't as powerful as it is.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I think this discussion between members from different countries may encounter confusion. In the United States, Congress, unlike parliament in the UK or elsewhere, is not the supreme lawmaker. Supreme lawmaking power rests with 75% of states to amend the US Constitution. As one might expect, that's extraordinarily difficult to do, so we have a legislature to take care of every day business. However, that runs into the problem of conflict with the supreme law, i.e. the Constitution. Congress may absolutely not run afoul of it.

    Then, without judicial review, the Constitution would be meaningless as the "supreme law of the land." Why? Congress could pass any law, even regarding the structure of government itself, without regard to it and it would have to be obeyed. Note, parliamentary systems operate this way.

    The alternative in a constitutional republic would be for the executive branch of government to ignore laws it deems unconstitutional. The difference in a judiciary is that judges are extremely erudite and moral people, who have been confirmed usually by an overwhelming majority of the Senate, and nominally not influenced by politics.
    That's something easily forgotten. Of course it's harder to do than it used to be, when the state legislatures chose their respective US Senators, because as a state went, so went the senator.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  28. #28
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's something easily forgotten. Of course it's harder to do than it used to be, when the state legislatures chose their respective US Senators, because as a state went, so went the senator.
    Actually, it's never been done in the way I meant it. As you know, states can convene without Congress to make changes to the Constitution. Therefore, states are de jure wholly independent from and more powerful than the federal government if 75% of them so wished. If the feds ever became like King John, the states would be like the barons.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    It did play out that way with the 27th Amendment didn't it?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  30. #30
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Actually, it's never been done in the way I meant it. As you know, states can convene without Congress to make changes to the Constitution. Therefore, states are de jure wholly independent from and more powerful than the federal government if 75% of them so wished. If the feds ever became like King John, the states would be like the barons.
    You're talking the process where two-thirds of the states call a convention and anything at that convention which passes by 3/4 of the states amends the Constitution, yes?

    I really think that's the only way we're going to get an amendment stripping political rights from all entities but citizens and legal residents. If we can, at the same time we should pass some amendments strengthening privacy rights and banning the death penalty.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  31. #31
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It did play out that way with the 27th Amendment didn't it?
    Three states recommended it to Congress. There was no convention.

  32. #32

    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I really think that's the only way we're going to get an amendment stripping political rights from all entities but citizens and legal residents. If we can, at the same time we should pass some amendments strengthening privacy rights and banning the death penalty.
    You keep threatening to deprive institutions and corporations of freedom of speech, but you have never told us what you would do about media corporations and universities. So I guess the government will be able to dictate what they say?
    Last edited by opinterph; December 23rd, 2012 at 08:48 AM. Reason: added attribution

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It did play out that way with the 27th Amendment didn't it?
    That one was a mistake.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  34. #34
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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That one was a mistake.
    So was the 2nd
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    So was the 2nd
    There wouldn't be a United States without the 2nd amendment.

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    And there wouldn't be a United States soon because of it. It is outdated, and clearly worded wrong, if it causes the results it does in present day.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Erm, why is the United States being run, governed, and operated by the Supreme Court?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And there wouldn't be a United States soon because of it. It is outdated, and clearly worded wrong, if it causes the results it does in present day.
    The problem is not the amendment, it's a society insufficiently civilized for it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    The problem is not the amendment, it's a society insufficiently civilized for it.
    You meant to say "progressed beyond the point where it does more good than harm". Either way, if the society isn't equipped to utilize it, it's harmful.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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