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  1. #401
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I submit that the people of Vietnam were aligned against us at the start as an invader. I would also submit that the Libyan, Egyptian and Syrian governments DO NOT have the computing power to monitor every words spoken or typed. If it never gets oprganized then it never becomes a movement now does it?
    So when the US finally goes to a mere police state, there will be no hope except to pray that China invades.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #402
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So when the US finally goes to a mere police state, there will be no hope except to pray that China invades.
    Can I put in a vote for Britain?

  3. #403
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    @Nishin: we will sort it out. Thanks.
    As one who lives in NYC

    I never feel the way Nishin suggested

    Not even close

  4. #404
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    "We can't let perfect be the enemy of the good"

    Morning Joe

  5. #405
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    This is an interesting read from a woman that has a son with possibly the same disability as Adam Lanza.


    http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/
    I am Adam Lanza’s Mother
    It's time to talk about mental illness


    Friday’s horrific national tragedy—the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in New Town, Connecticut—has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

    Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  6. #406

    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    As one who lives in NYC

    I never feel the way Nishin suggested

    Not even close
    As one who lives in NYC, I do not feel insecure walking the streets. However, I am mindful that there are people out here with guns. Most gun crime in NYC is committed with guns purchased in other states. Unfortunately, our gun laws cannot protect us from the lunacy of the lawmakers in the gun nut states.

  7. #407
    Oranje rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So when the US finally goes to a mere police state, there will be no hope except to pray that China invades.
    Why this pervasive fear in the US that the country will turn into a police state?

    The numbers alone are against it happening, unless finally, the overwhelming majority of the citizens become utterly impoverished religious fundamentalists with little or no education or hope and a military leader rises to power, suspends the Constitution, and imposes martial law in order to protect the material interests of the 100 ruling families and corporations.

    In that case, Canada will invade.

  8. #408
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishin View Post
    OOook... federal government, State government, planned but non-existing militia or ersatz schizophrenic militia working for 2 potentially belligerent bodies, and allowed to rebel against both, fluctuating definitions of who its members are, seemingly arbitrary decision of whether right to bear arms depends on belonging to said militia or not (I guess made possible by the existence of differently worded/punctuated versions of the text) etc etc ...

    To be quite honest this eventually looks like a really confusing mess of nuances, vagueness, era-contextual, elastic manipulable data... I would think for a set of rules to govern the lives of millions of people that a bit more precision and clear guidelines should be required...




    Then why do pro-gun guys keep mentioning this text then? Rather than its latest court validated en-vogue interpretation I mean...

    Anyway, all this actually really gave me a headache...

    I was walking with friends in NYC's street last summer, and suddenly one guy who looked drunk/high went very vocal, agitated and aggressive with a random passer-by who maybe bumped into him by accident, it got really scary as they started to confront violently and wanting to fight, I was thinking does any of them have a gun and is going to use it??

    I could never feel secure living in many parts of the US... that paranoia and fear is communicable, you never know who has what and is able of doing what... all because guns are legal... I never felt this level of insecurity in any other part of the world (and I actually lived in a country where civil war was happening)...

    I have dear friends in the US, I don't want them to die by the gun of a crazy, impulsive, paranoiac nutjob thinking he's the most important person in the world who needs to "protect" his integrity by shooting people down...

    At the end of the day, I wish a national debate can emerge and be conducted with no interference from the greedy lobby for the greater good of the US society...

    That's probably wishful thinking though...
    Actually in most conversations I see on it, it is the anti-gun crowd that brings up the militia argument and then the pro-gun crowd gets wrapped up in explaining it. In a way it being used as a strawman to detract from the more general discussion of the relevance of guns in today's society. Very few gun owners in today's society are stocking up on weapons to fight an insurgency. But some folks zero in on that militia clause wanting to turn the debate onto an aspect of self defense that is not likely to arise to say the amendment is obsolete.

    It is of interest to note in your example of a random argument on the street. The Hollywood image of the Wild West is largely just that, an image glorified to sell movies. Gun violence and deaths per capita in the 'Wild West' was much lower than it is in current day New York City. When gun ownership was not only common but most people carried openly society tended to be more polite it seems. You didn't have to ask 'does any of them have a gun', you plainly saw that they did and the people involved tended to not let the argument get out of hand. Of course society was politer in general in those days as well. Gun fights were the exception not the rule but the media then and now loved to focus on them.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  9. #409
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    As one who lives in NYC, I do not feel insecure walking the streets. However, I am mindful that there are people out here with guns. Most gun crime in NYC is committed with guns purchased in other states. Unfortunately, our gun laws cannot protect us from the lunacy of the lawmakers in the gun nut states.
    Why is the gun violence higher in the area with the gun laws than in the neighboring area without it? Shouldn't they be the same or lower? Or is it as some suggest that the gun law is encouraging the criminals who are bringing the guns in knowing that the law abiding is disarmed? This has always been the nagging flaw in this logic to me.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  10. #410
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Why this pervasive fear in the US that the country will turn into a police state?

    The numbers alone are against it happening, unless finally, the overwhelming majority of the citizens become utterly impoverished religious fundamentalists with little or no education or hope and a military leader rises to power, suspends the Constitution, and imposes martial law in order to protect the material interests of the 100 ruling families and corporations.

    In that case, Canada will invade.
    It is not really pervasive at all but nearly any discussion of the 2nd Amendment and gun rights in the US devolves into it because some would like to paint the amendment as obsolete and focusing on the militia issue is the means to do that.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  11. #411
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Just reported a shooting in San Antonio, shooter just shooting across a parking lot and into a theater, Police had to shoot him to stop it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh yes the shooter is in the hospital recovering.
    HE hit a bystander
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  12. #412
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    ^ and a copycat shooting in Uruguay... willing to get same fame as his model from Newtown he saw on TV ...

  13. #413
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Why this pervasive fear in the US that the country will turn into a police state?

    .
    Because we have a President who doesn't seem to think that the Constitution applies to him.

  14. #414
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Why this pervasive fear in the US that the country will turn into a police state?
    Cultural neurosis. Reasonable caution exaggerated into irrational anxiety.
    pro bonobo

  15. #415
    Oranje rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Reardon,

    So you and apparently a few others are so panty pissing scared that in a tri-partite government that this president you hate so much (or Bush or Clinton or Bush or Carter or Ford or Nixon or Johnson or Kennedy or Eisenhower or Truman or Roosevelt ad nauseum) somehow has the power or the desire to simply wake up one morning, declare a Dictatorship and do exactly what??????????????????????????????

    You are saying that the Vice President, cabinet, legislative branch and Supreme Court and all the people who hold and exercise a huge amount of power would do nothing to stop this at all? That the entire military of the US is so without conscience or critical thinking ability that it would immediately mobilize at this command to sweep across the country and also willingly stop defending the Constitution?

    That all the State governments would bow to this?

    Is this what you are implying?

    That the entire foundation of the United States government is so wobbly and impotent that Obama...who has done nothing to even remotely suggest that he is a power mad megalomaniac intent on world domination, is the reason why you need a complete arsenal of weapons of mass destruction hidden under your bed?

    Really?

    What a bizarre world you must live in.

  16. #416
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Can I put in a vote for Britain?
    I'd prefer to surrender to Canada, but... sure.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #417
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Why this pervasive fear in the US that the country will turn into a police state?

    The numbers alone are against it happening, unless finally, the overwhelming majority of the citizens become utterly impoverished religious fundamentalists with little or no education or hope and a military leader rises to power, suspends the Constitution, and imposes martial law in order to protect the material interests of the 100 ruling families and corporations.

    In that case, Canada will invade.
    It's already happening. The law school at the University of Chicago did a study a while back and concluded that law enforcement today is about manufacturing criminals more than capturing them. It's not uncommon for cops to arrest someone and concoct a reason later. More and more judges are former DAs more interested in locking people up than in truth. And then there's the "Patriot" Act. which makes it possible for the FBI to detain someone merely on the declaration of suspicion of involvement in terrorist activities -- no warrant needed -- among other things.

    To top it off, most the the remaining WWII veterans around here agree with the observation of one, that what they see in law enforcement these days is what they went to Germany to fight against.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #418
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Bullshit ...

    Read the whole fact sheet... a complete myth. Who was around to keep the Bison alive and safe from the evil prairie dog?
    It's not even talking about why ranchers wanted prairie dogs shot -- and I've never heard of that reason you comment on; its laughable. The real reason is that cattle which step in a prairie dog hole can break a leg, and cattlemen don't appreciate that.

    We also went after them, by invitation of the company, on railroad embankments, where the existence of a large colony could cause collapse of the bank.


    note: my internet connection is acting up and I can't read that article; for that matter I can't get to JUB half the time.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #419
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    False, and completely disconnected from real world, politics, and societal morality. May your ideals serve you well, but please don't promote them as some legal fact, which they most certainly are not.
    Let's try it from this view: what you're proposing is equivalent to saying you support free speech when what you want is to have some authority decide which topics are allowed.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #420
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Why is the gun violence higher in the area with the gun laws than in the neighboring area without it? Shouldn't they be the same or lower? Or is it as some suggest that the gun law is encouraging the criminals who are bringing the guns in knowing that the law abiding is disarmed? This has always been the nagging flaw in this logic to me.
    Yes. If gun crime is higher in a place with strict limitations on ownership and use, and the excuse for that crime is that the guns flow in from next door, it stands to reason that next door should have even more gun crime, since guns are freely available.

    What the contrasting data indicate is that when firearms are tightly restricted, criminals feel freer to use theirs because they know it gives them serious advantage.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #421
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Because we have a President who doesn't seem to think that the Constitution applies to him.
    That's two in a row now.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #422
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    The police have just locked down a High School and an Elementary here in CC because a school cop saw a man walking along shouting and carrying a black bag. Another problem is he was wearing shooting glasses.
    Cautious or paranoid. I am gonna vote for Casutious.
    Last edited by White Eagle; December 17th, 2012 at 10:40 AM. Reason: added stuff
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  23. #423
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's two in a row now.
    I doubt the US would rank 19 out of 167 countries on the Democracy Index if the executive did not obey the Constitution.
    Last edited by JockBoy87; December 17th, 2012 at 11:00 AM.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's already happening. The law school at the University of Chicago did a study a while back and concluded that law enforcement today is about manufacturing criminals more than capturing them. It's not uncommon for cops to arrest someone and concoct a reason later. More and more judges are former DAs more interested in locking people up than in truth. And then there's the "Patriot" Act. which makes it possible for the FBI to detain someone merely on the declaration of suspicion of involvement in terrorist activities -- no warrant needed -- among other things.
    I don't find much difference between this anxiety about a police state, and others' anxieties about criminals and terrorists. The common denominator here is irrational fear.

    Of course I understand that people caught up in imaginary scenarios believe they are acting in reasonable accord with the facts.

    Which is to say, a prudent reaction to the legitimate, unexaggerated problems you recognize is cautious, but not fearful; there's no good reason to maintain an absurd stockpile of arms and ammunition.
    pro bonobo

  25. #425
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So Egypt and Libya can fall, but the US is guaranteed to become an unassailable tyranny?
    I have already addressed this in posts above. Egypt and Libya (oh and you left out Syria) do not have the electronic monitoring processes in place that are here in the US. The amount of folks you require have to start with some sort of communication method and will not simply spawn out of thin air. If any sort of armed resistance was planned the ring leaders will be incarcerated before they can text the directions to their first rebel rally.

    I am sure you will consider things like OWS and they lasted a long time. However they were leaderless and really no threat. How many brigades of cops did you see in the streets? But hold onto the pipe dream if it makes you feel secure at night. Think of another monitoring country and ask yourself under terrible conditions how many uprisings have the Chinese squashed?

    Ooooh and then think of which country has the same stresses causing similar violent outburst and yet the maniacs can only get knives and kill many less people... yep that would be Chins as well.

    The other striking thing about this is the NRA supported Congressmen are silent and so is the NRA. Saying they prefer to wait for more facts. What they prefer to wait for is something or some idea they can spin into a political capitol for their consortium of gun manufacturers and paid congressmen.

    Time for some changes.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  26. #426
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So when the US finally goes to a mere police state, there will be no hope except to pray that China invades.
    See your post about arrest then think about random searches for no reason other than they can, roadblocks on the highways ostensibly for DUI but they take in every other violation they make money off of, Drones flying overhead for surveillance for "drugs", warrantless wiretaps, communication and internet protection acts that codify companies sharing your use information and then ask yourself exactly how much more needs to change for you to think your are living in a police state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's not even talking about why ranchers wanted prairie dogs shot -- and I've never heard of that reason you comment on; its laughable. The real reason is that cattle which step in a prairie dog hole can break a leg, and cattlemen don't appreciate that.

    We also went after them, by invitation of the company, on railroad embankments, where the existence of a large colony could cause collapse of the bank.


    note: my internet connection is acting up and I can't read that article; for that matter I can't get to JUB half the time.
    Well since you can see it and I cant post it then please see....
    Now that cattle are no longer run in herds, it is extremely rare for livestock to break their legs in prairie dog burrows. As long as cattle are permitted to see where they are going, they easily avoid burrows. Many ranchers scoff at this rural fable.
    It also addresses the other fables such as weeds, depleted forage, types of eaten grasses, and other such things.

    I still fail to see even with four hundred targets why you require "full auto" or a sixty round clip. All you require are more shooters and simultaneous release would net more than trying to chase them down after the first couple shots.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  27. #427
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Let's try it from this view: what you're proposing is equivalent to saying you support free speech when what you want is to have some authority decide which topics are allowed.
    I do not agree with this equivalency.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Yes. If gun crime is higher in a place with strict limitations on ownership and use, and the excuse for that crime is that the guns flow in from next door, it stands to reason that next door should have even more gun crime, since guns are freely available.

    What the contrasting data indicate is that when firearms are tightly restricted, criminals feel freer to use theirs because they know it gives them serious advantage.
    This is again completely flawed logic that has been proven as such multiple times. Whatever.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Yes. If gun crime is higher in a place with strict limitations on ownership and use, and the excuse for that crime is that the guns flow in from next door, it stands to reason that next door should have even more gun crime, since guns are freely available.

    What the contrasting data indicate is that when firearms are tightly restricted, criminals feel freer to use theirs because they know it gives them serious advantage.
    There is no disputing the evidence that lack of access for anyone and gun deaths drop to nothing. The problem we have is fifty different states with fifty different laws. The constitution does say the states are forbidden to make laws that affect other states. Hmmmmm.

    In any event all of the "other" state laws are a mute point until the show loophole is closed. Why would I have a background check and a waiting period in New York when i can just go to a show and buy four hundred semi automatics that day and drive home???

    Finally, I heard to day the data base for background checks is not kept up to date very well. That is yet another thing where a collective effort and funding could resolve the issue. Unfortunately it takes common sense and funding. Since republicans lack common sense and abhor paying for what they vote to spend money on the idea that we can augment such a background system is laughable.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Now that cattle are no longer run in herds, it is extremely rare for livestock to break their legs in prairie dog burrows. As long as cattle are permitted to see where they are going, they easily avoid burrows. Many ranchers scoff at this rural fable.
    ^^^ As well, maybe the time has come when domestic cattle shouldn't be the only creature ravaging the entire countryside and displacing all the natural inhabitants...
    Last edited by rareboy; December 17th, 2012 at 12:32 PM.

  30. #430
    JockBoy87
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    This article picked up on my earlier interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

    It is likely that Madison intended that guns be available if this course of action [revolution] was ever again necessary.

    http://news.yahoo.com/madison-never-...-politics.html

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    There is no disputing the evidence that lack of access for anyone and gun deaths drop to nothing. The problem we have is fifty different states with fifty different laws. The constitution does say the states are forbidden to make laws that affect other states. Hmmmmm.

    In any event all of the "other" state laws are a mute point until the show loophole is closed. Why would I have a background check and a waiting period in New York when i can just go to a show and buy four hundred semi automatics that day and drive home???

    Finally, I heard to day the data base for background checks is not kept up to date very well. That is yet another thing where a collective effort and funding could resolve the issue. Unfortunately it takes common sense and funding. Since republicans lack common sense and abhor paying for what they vote to spend money on the idea that we can augment such a background system is laughable.
    Since you mentioned gun show, we had one last weekend and another one is planned for next weekend. Of course in another county.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    There is no disputing the evidence that lack of access for anyone and gun deaths drop to nothing. .
    Oh, but there is evidence that lack of access is effective.

    Someone posted a Harvard study earlier, perhaps you missed it:


    Harvard Study shows gun control no help


    http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_stud...terproductive/

    Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    To be blunt, I have to think that if the Founding fathers had ever envisioned a gun that could fire 100 rapid rounds, they would have probably qualified their whole 'arms' thing.

    At the time the 2nd ammendment was drafted, there was still the fear (as later realized in the war of 1812) that Britain might still try and re-take the colonies....and that the noble farmers with their flintlocks, and rifles would beat back any invaders.





    I think that if one demonstrated the kind of firearms that mowed down all the children and told the Founders that their nation would be riddled with people who would be so afraid, not of the invader from without, but the invader within...that they surely would have wept.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Oh, but there is evidence that lack of access is effective.

    Someone posted a Harvard study earlier, perhaps you missed it:


    Harvard Study shows gun control no help


    http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_stud...terproductive/

    Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
    TEN THOUSAND gun deaths in the US .... 42 in West Germany. Lack of access works especially if we are to limit health care access and reduce funds spent on mental health services. If you dont wanna pay for crazies then the guns gotta go... basic easy to follow position. I know you can keep up.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    To be blunt, I have to think that if the Founding fathers had ever envisioned a gun that could fire 100 rapid rounds, they would have probably qualified their whole 'arms' thing.

    At the time the 2nd ammendment was drafted, there was still the fear (as later realized in the war of 1812) that Britain might still try and re-take the colonies....and that the noble farmers with their flintlocks, and rifles would beat back any invaders.





    I think that if one demonstrated the kind of firearms that mowed down all the children and told the Founders that their nation would be riddled with people who would be so afraid, not of the invader from without, but the invader within...that they surely would have wept.
    Yes they even proposed a limitation of 5,000 men for a standing army. George Washington laughed and said they could do that as long as they mandated in the Constitution that invading armies may only consist of 3000 men. Of ocurse Washington was a federalist. He would have been a democrat had he lived now....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    ^^ Honestly JH. I don't know why you even bother.

    Anyone who can't look at the stats from around the world, extrapolate for population numbers and draw a reasonable conclusion isn't worth banging our heads on the table over. We aren't going to convince Rearden. On anything.
    Last edited by rareboy; December 17th, 2012 at 01:51 PM.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Oh sometimes I just say it to get the info out there. Not to get into other posters but there are five people who post in CEP who will never change their minds no matter what the evidence and one in particular who simple argues to argue regardless of what his personal opinion is on the issues.

    I continue to argue various points because I know two things....

    1)Lurkers read the info and are trying to make a decision without joining the fray
    2) Kuli will always return to this thread because it involves guns and he actually will change his position when offered a preponderance of different information. I realize it is highly unlikely he will ever alter his gun views but the conversation is what is important.

    well okay three things...
    3) I got no where else to go...

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    To be blunt, I have to think that if the Founding fathers had ever envisioned a gun that could fire 100 rapid rounds, they would have probably qualified their whole 'arms' thing.
    They probably would have added an amendment forbidding the government from having a standing army.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    At the time the 2nd ammendment was drafted, there was still the fear (as later realized in the war of 1812) that Britain might still try and re-take the colonies....and that the noble farmers with their flintlocks, and rifles would beat back any invaders.
    But they also discussed the concern that any central government would head toward the sort of arbitrary power that GB fell into.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I think that if one demonstrated the kind of firearms that mowed down all the children and told the Founders that their nation would be riddled with people who would be so afraid, not of the invader from without, but the invader within...that they surely would have wept.
    Really? Because they discussed these very things. They seriously didn't want the central government to have an army, but only to be able to call up those of the several states. And they may have looked at the monstrous size and intrusiveness of what we've made of their attempt at limited government and wondered why the citizens ever stopped having the latest in military arms in their homes.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Really? Because they discussed these very things. They seriously didn't want the central government to have an army, but only to be able to call up those of the several states. And they may have looked at the monstrous size and intrusiveness of what we've made of their attempt at limited government and wondered why the citizens ever stopped having the latest in military arms in their homes.


    Please demonstrate from historical record where they discussed the lack of morals in a society that would allow the mentally sick to possess weapons and mow down children.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    And while we sling brick-a-bats at each other we can start doing something.

    Go to www.demandaplan.org and sign the petition to Congress and the White House to start doing something about gun violence.

  41. #441
    loki81
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    And while we sling brick-a-bats at each other we can start doing something.

    Go to www.demandaplan.org and sign the petition to Congress and the White House to start doing something about gun violence.
    online petitions... lol.

    you might have a lot better luck actually calling your local congressman's office or donating to a pro-gun control lobbying group (Violence Policy Center comes to mind)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's already happening. The law school at the University of Chicago did a study a while back and concluded that law enforcement today is about manufacturing criminals more than capturing them. It's not uncommon for cops to arrest someone and concoct a reason later. More and more judges are former DAs more interested in locking people up than in truth. And then there's the "Patriot" Act. which makes it possible for the FBI to detain someone merely on the declaration of suspicion of involvement in terrorist activities -- no warrant needed -- among other things.

    To top it off, most the the remaining WWII veterans around here agree with the observation of one, that what they see in law enforcement these days is what they went to Germany to fight against.
    You are about 500 times more likely to be killed by a civilian with a gun in the US than by a police officer. And if you don't break the law, that number becomes 5000 times more likely.

    But if you're a US citizen who owns a gun, you are most at risk from yourself. More than half of US gun deaths are self inflicted.

    If you were a woman and your partner owned a gun, you would also be around a thousand times more likely to be killed by that partner than by a policeman.

  43. #443
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    online petitions... lol.

    you might have a lot better luck actually calling your local congressman's office or donating to a pro-gun control lobbying group (Violence Policy Center comes to mind)
    They do work from time to time. That's how we've been getting corporate America to drop the BSA.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    An intriguing read:

    Penn Study Asks, Protection or Peril? Gun Possession of Questionable Value in an Assault

    PHILADELPHIA In a first-of its-kind study, epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that, on average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. The study estimated that people with a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun....
    Link/cont'd

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'd prefer to surrender to Canada, but... sure.
    Pretty sure Canada could only annex Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont. That's the extent of our military power.
    blacksyringe

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    TEN THOUSAND gun deaths in the US .... 42 in West Germany. Lack of access works especially if we are to limit health care access and reduce funds spent on mental health services. If you dont wanna pay for crazies then the guns gotta go... basic easy to follow position. I know you can keep up.
    Just for clarification - that's 10,000 HAND GUN deaths in the US. There are around 30,000 gun deaths in the US each year, 10,000 by hand guns. Around 15,000 deaths are suicides.

  46. #446
    JockBoy87
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by -Callum- View Post
    An intriguing read:

    Penn Study Asks, Protection or Peril? Gun Possession of Questionable Value in an Assault

    PHILADELPHIA – In a first-of its-kind study, epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that, on average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. The study estimated that people with a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun....
    Link/cont'd

    Did the study say why?
    Last edited by JockBoy87; December 17th, 2012 at 02:47 PM.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    There is overwhelming evidence that reducing gun ownership reduces gun deaths and gun crime. When asked to prove otherwise, there is scant evidence that can be proffered by gun advocates. I'm tired of posting statistics in threads like this.

    One overriding logic prevails: if guns make people safer, why is the most heavily armed citizenry in the world also one of the most dangerous? If guns make people safer, why does the US have more gun deaths than any other industrialised nation?

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Did the study say why?
    No. The study does not conclude why they're more likely to be shot in return, just presents a statistical likelihood from gun assaults between 2003-2006 in Philadelphia.
    blacksyringe

  49. #449
    JockBoy87
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by -Callum- View Post
    No. The study does not conclude why they're more likely to be shot in return, just presents a statistical likelihood from gun assaults between 2003-2006 in Philadelphia.
    I did not find this article in my school library, but I will request it through document express. Should be granted on account of our criminal justice program.

    It might tell us a lot about what the victims in this study are doing before being shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post

    One overriding logic prevails: if guns make people safer, why is the most heavily armed citizenry in the world also one of the most dangerous? If guns make people safer, why does the US have more gun deaths than any other industrialised nation?
    The most frustrating problem in science is the lack of self evident proof of causation by correlation alone.

    If you have shown a graph of gun ownership, and a graph of gun deaths, you have proved nothing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
    Last edited by JockBoy87; December 17th, 2012 at 03:08 PM.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    TEN THOUSAND gun deaths in the US .... 42 in West Germany. Lack of access works especially if we are to limit health care access and reduce funds spent on mental health services. If you dont wanna pay for crazies then the guns gotta go... basic easy to follow position. I know you can keep up.
    You won't like the source, but here's a report that says Europe is on a par with the US in terms of mass shootings.

    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Lot...o_code=111C9-1

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