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  1. #251
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're claiming the shooter there was happy and stable beforehand? That's what I was addressing.
    I never claimed any such thing. I'm saying he was known to be in need of anti-psychotic medication but the gun nut portion of this country that insists on absolutely no regulation of any sort allowed a guy off his meds to walk into a store, no checks, and walk out with the weapons to carry out the deadliest school shooting spree in American history.

    Nothing you've said in these 6 pages of the thread has thus far REMOTELY justified how this is a good thing. I would have to share your paranoid fear that the government is behind every corner waiting to catch me without my gun (I don't have one btw) to start oppressing me for the things you've said to be a good explanation for this state of affairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's no different than pointing out that one does not use a hand grenade to kill a cockroach.
    So you're basically sharing the position of Jack Springer that "well if people would just be good and mature..?" I don't see how that's a practical solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The police have no legal duty to protect anyone -- the courts have said so over and over, all the way up to the Supreme Court's multiple declarations about it.

    People carrying weapons do seem to be "shining knights": they have a seriously lower crime rate than the general population. And I'd rather trust people to be responsible than be a coward hiding behind a system that pretends to protect but can't.
    I have no idea where you get this. You go ask the parents of school age children if for security purposes they would rather have a police officer stationed on campus or volunteer random people with guns, see what they think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's not fear, it's pride in being free.
    Right. That's why after Obama was re-elected gun sales soared through the roof. Somehow people's perception of their need for more guns always veers uncomfortably close to being highly associated to dark people moving in nearby.

    Sorry Kul-- you are an odd bird on this topic. You are. You are trying to present your position here like your views represent gun ownership monolithically in this country. I don't see it as representing anything at all except you, one odd bird with a really fundamentalist view on gun ownership and its relationship to the Constitution and the ever-present fear of a government waiting to stomp on you. When I think of the reasons most gun nuts I've ever known want guns it has absolutely nothing to do with their desire to run off and join a militia to make sure the government never oppresses them and has everything to do with racial and socioeconomic diversity being intimately tied into their own internal perception of "danger." That's the bald truth.

  2. #252
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Main reason the idea that you have your weapons to defend against the government are pretty useless these days:



    Folks who attempted before drones were not very successful:


    WACO

    hmmmmm...





    Just Saying Kuli... I really don't think it matters how many rifles, semi-auto or even full auto weapons you have. Since the bombing in Oklahoma City if this government determines you are a threat then you go away.

    So since that excuse is completely annihilated can we get on with protecting the 6 year olds?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  3. #253
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by -Callum- View Post
    I have mixed emotions on this. I'm sad for the children, parents and everyone intimately involved in the slaughter, or anyone that's suffered from such events in the past and is haunted every time a massacre occurs. Yet I find it exhausting, these atrocities are so commonplace in American media I think I've become desensitized to them. Massacres occur in some countries on a weekly if not daily basis, yet American media will drag on one specific event on American soil for months on end.

    American gun culture is something I've never understood. I took a course on American history once and I pretty much concluded America is founded on a culture of fear, from the 1760s onward. I don't think they've ever overcome the whole 'the British are coming' mentality. Weird, but hey...makes it unique. The NRA just promotes that hardwired fear, and vast swaths of America are okay with the promotion because a firearm is a teddy bear...but for reasons unclear to me they're literally up in arms over any discussion on gun regulation (which incidentally is typically the argument from the Southern States, which are notoriously uneducated and likely don't even know the other amendments to their constitution).

    Guns are fine if they're regulated. Their constitutional right is to take up arms, so they shouldn't have to discard them...yet they should be intensely regulated. If you want a gun you should have to pass a series of evaluations. Buying one at Wal-Mart is just insane. The fact that if I don't take my medications and can run into Wal-Mart, purchase a gun, leave the store, walk into a school/movie theatre/church and systematically slaughter people is mind-boggling. I understand America has wonderful freedoms, but the death of twenty schoolchildren in CT is one of the many prices Americans have to pay for that 'gun freedom'.

    And the "GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE" mentality is something I also don't understand. It's rooted in the argument that if someone sought to kill, they could use any object. Which is reasonable. Could we logically deduce that "SMOKING DOESN'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE" is a valid argument, knowing medicine is aware secondhand smoke is lethal? A smoke is more insidious, no doubt, but it also kills you. Again, a lack of regulation yet overwhelming freedoms is something Americans dearly pay for.

    This is a conversation America should have been having since its inception, not the day of a massacre.

    Well posited.

  4. #254
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    I note research from Harvard University has produced conclusions which are mind boggling suggesting that conventional wisdom assuming a reduction in the murder rate when tougher gun controls are introduced is not supported by their research:

    http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_stud...terproductive/

    I quote:

    The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.
    Neither am I certain that in a society with high ownership of guns that a psychopath personality cannot work their way around tough gun ownership laws to further their insane objectives, such as in Norway a country with high ownership of guns, very tough gun control restrictions despite which some 18 months ago there was a shooting spree executed by a politically motivated extremist.

    Australia would appear to have benefited from tougher gun control laws enacted after a shooting spree in Tasmania leading to a significant reduction in the murder rate contrary to the findings in the Harvard University study:

    http://andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf

    I quote:

    In 1997, Australia implemented a gun buyback program that reduced the stock of
    firearms by around one-fifth (and nearly halved the number of gun-owning households). Using differences across states, we test whether the reduction in firearms availability affected homicide and suicide rates. We find that the buyback led to a drop in the firearm suicide rates of almost 80%, with no significant effect on non-firearm death rates. The effect on firearm homicides is of similar magnitude but is less precise. The results are robust to a variety of specification checks and to instrumenting the state-level buyback rate. JEL (I12, K14)
    Last edited by opinterph; December 16th, 2012 at 10:25 AM. Reason: added quote tags

  5. #255
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    As an American, I've intentionally avoided posting in this thread because in my view it's not much more than hysteria.

    Now before everyone starts getting their panties in a twist, I've shared with my friends out here in the real world my same views.

    I've been met with anger, and tears, and acknowledgement.

    One of things that I love about being able to connect with so many of you here on JUB are the different perspectives that we're able to bring to the table, and from perspectives outside of the Continental United States.

    But in North America we speak three primary languages; English, Spanish, and French.

    If you think that I'm lying, the next time you purchase something where "some assembly is required" chances are good that you're not going to be able to read two out of the three pages of instructions.

    From the Edmonton Journal:

    EDMONTON - The saddest, sickest, bleakest comment one can make about the latest school spree shooting — this one in Sandy Hook, Conn. — is that such events have become so common that they’ve developed their own cliché pattern of responses.
    It's true. Who amongst us, here in America, can deny that?

    I'll tell you who.

    What appears to the outside world as being the Majority of Americans, and as indicated in this thread.

    Just over the past few months; Aurora, Colorado, Portland, Oregon, and now Sandy Hook, Connecticut.

    Not to mention the killing spree in Canada, and in Norway.

    What's the one thing that ties all of them together besides guns, and innocent lives lost?

    From the same link:

    In almost every instance, such spree killings, whether carried out in the United States, or Canada or Norway, have involved young men with mental health issues, young men who showed abundant signs of needing psychological help before they struck, whether they were suffering from schizophrenia or bipolar mania or depression or paranoia.
    Arguing about "gun laws" is the easy way out.

    We can all drag out statistics, and talk about regional safety, and crime versus lax or strict gun laws by state.

    We can talk about "murder by capita" of which countries have the most guns, as opposed to those with a whose citizens virtually have none, and it still doesn't change a dang thing.

    I've thought long and hard about this over the past several days.

    And to me, the truth is no one really wants to talk about "mental illness" and our attitude towards it.

    How our health care plans, regardless of country, deal with it.

    Why?

    Because as Americans, and in some cases Christians, it goes against freedom of choice, and freedom of expression.

    One gift from God, and another from the U.S. Constitution; both gifts from God depending upon who you talk to.

    There is so much more worthy of discussion here but we're not going to have it, and that's what is really sad about these tragedies.

    So y'all carry one with they hysteria, and I'll continue to pray for the deceased and hope that neither one of us are ever victims.
    Last edited by CTF; December 16th, 2012 at 06:42 AM.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  6. #256
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I agree a citizen militia, even with good firearms and armor, could not hold a candle to technological weapons.
    The Viet Cong proved that a hotch potch militia equipped with AK47s could successfully confront an enemy - the United States, equipped with technologically advanced weapons - and succeed in obtaining their objective sending the United States Army packing from Vietnam.

  7. #257
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    As an American, I've intentionally avoided posting in this thread because in my view it's not much more than hysteria.

    Now before everyone starts getting their panties in a twist, I've shared with my friends out here in the real world my same views.

    I've been met with anger, and tears, and acknowledgement.

    One of things that I love about being able to connect with so many of you here on JUB are the different perspectives that we're able to bring to the table, and from perspectives outside of the Continental United States.

    But in North America we speak three primary languages; English, Spanish, and French.

    If you think that I'm lying, the next time you purchase something where "some assembly is required" chances are good that you're not going to be able to read two out of the three pages of instructions.

    From the Edmonton Journal:



    It's true. Who amongst us, here in America, can deny that?

    I'll tell you who.

    What appears to the outside world as being the Majority of Americans, and as indicated in this thread.

    Just over the past few months; Aurora, Colorado, Portland, Oregon, and now Sandy Hook, Connecticut.

    Not to mention the killing spree in Canada, and in Norway.

    What's the one thing that ties all of them together besides guns, and innocent lives lost?

    From the same link:



    Arguing about "gun laws" is the easy way out.

    We can all drag out statistics, and talk about regional safety, and crime versus lax or strict gun laws by state.

    We can talk about "murder by capita" of which countries have the most guns, as opposed to those with a whose citizens virtually have none, and it still doesn't change a dang thing.

    I've thought long and hard about this over the past several days.

    And to me, the truth is no one really wants to talk about "mental illness" and our attitude towards it.

    How our health care plans, regardless of country, deal with it.

    Why?

    Because as Americans, and in some cases Christians, it goes against freedom of choice, and freedom of expression.

    One gift from God, and another from the U.S. Constitution; both gifts from God depending upon who you talk to.

    There is so much more worthy of discussion here but we're not going to have it, and that's what is really sad about these tragedies.

    So y'all carry one with they hysteria, and I'll continue to pray for the deceased and hope that neither one of us are ever victims.
    Rather like so called traffic accidents there is always going to be the insane factor, such as drunk drivers and in this particular tragedy the mentally challenged person with an appetite to extract a pound of flesh which no amount of legal restrictions can prevent.

  8. #258
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    The Vietnam War was 40 years ago.

    There is no way that can compare with the changes in missile and drone technology that have transpired since.

    Fun Fact:

    Intel now has a processor the size of a cracker that is mightier than the fastest supercomputer in 1997.
    During the Vietnam War the United States and its allies lost to a third world raggle, taggle enemy despite being equipped with the most advanced technology on planet earth including helicopters, jet fighters, missiles etc.

    Drones have a well established reputation for killing more innocent bystanders than those being targeted.

  9. #259
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Back on topic please.

    Although, given that we all know that not a single thing will be done to change the rules around gun ownership in the US...we might as well talk about the American people having to rise up against the guvamint some day.

    A few weeks of prayerful platitudes and sound bites about the threat to liberty and then it will be time for the New Year's day parades and football and no one will be talking about this anymore.

    Guaranteed.

  10. #260
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    So do guns.

    And by the way, technology has absolutely helped keep Al-Qaeda suppressed in Afghanistan and terrorist attacks from success in the United States since 9-11.

    If it were 1970, the Taliban may very well have been able to overcome US forces. Not any longer.
    Military strategists in Washington, London and Paris have acknowledged that once Western forces are withdrawn matters in Afghanistan will return to normal with the various war lords, and The Taliban returning to power.

    To win the war is one reality, to win the objective and peace very much another as the situation in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan continues to illustrate.

    All very sad.

  11. #261

    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    During the Vietnam War the United States and its allies lost to a third world raggle, taggle enemy despite being equipped with the most advanced technology on planet earth including helicopters, jet fighters, missiles etc.

    Drones have a well established reputation for killing more innocent bystanders than those being targeted.
    The Viet Cong also had the support of most of their 60 million or so fellow countrymen.

  12. #262

    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    I note research from Harvard University has produced conclusions which are mind boggling suggesting that conventional wisdom assuming a reduction in the murder rate when tougher gun controls are introduced is not supported by their research:

    http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_stud...terproductive/
    I just glanced at the article you cite. It refers to a law review article and mistakenly calls it a study. Moreover, I did not find the law review article particularly persuasive. It compares countries in Europe with strict gun control laws and low gun ownership but high murder rates with countries with high gun ownership and low murder rates and concludes that gun control doesn't lead to low murder rates. The problem is that the former countries were part of the Soviet Union and the latter are western European democracies. Flabby thinking that doesn't support the conclusion.

  13. #263
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Just heard on Fox News that the killer played videos games and couldn't look people in the eye -- with the latter being a text book definition of autism. Autism doesn't kill people. But, a gun culture does.

    We've seen gay marriage okayed and the usage of marijuana decriminalized. Soon, with time, the shackles of having unlimited access to guns will be broken and America will be a country again.

    Time. Time is the key.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  14. #264

    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    As an American, I've intentionally avoided posting in this thread because in my view it's not much more than hysteria.

    Now before everyone starts getting their panties in a twist, I've shared with my friends out here in the real world my same views.

    I've been met with anger, and tears, and acknowledgement.

    One of things that I love about being able to connect with so many of you here on JUB are the different perspectives that we're able to bring to the table, and from perspectives outside of the Continental United States.

    But in North America we speak three primary languages; English, Spanish, and French.

    If you think that I'm lying, the next time you purchase something where "some assembly is required" chances are good that you're not going to be able to read two out of the three pages of instructions.

    From the Edmonton Journal:



    It's true. Who amongst us, here in America, can deny that?

    I'll tell you who.

    What appears to the outside world as being the Majority of Americans, and as indicated in this thread.

    Just over the past few months; Aurora, Colorado, Portland, Oregon, and now Sandy Hook, Connecticut.

    Not to mention the killing spree in Canada, and in Norway.

    What's the one thing that ties all of them together besides guns, and innocent lives lost?

    From the same link:



    Arguing about "gun laws" is the easy way out.

    We can all drag out statistics, and talk about regional safety, and crime versus lax or strict gun laws by state.

    We can talk about "murder by capita" of which countries have the most guns, as opposed to those with a whose citizens virtually have none, and it still doesn't change a dang thing.

    I've thought long and hard about this over the past several days.

    And to me, the truth is no one really wants to talk about "mental illness" and our attitude towards it.

    How our health care plans, regardless of country, deal with it.

    Why?

    Because as Americans, and in some cases Christians, it goes against freedom of choice, and freedom of expression.

    One gift from God, and another from the U.S. Constitution; both gifts from God depending upon who you talk to.

    There is so much more worthy of discussion here but we're not going to have it, and that's what is really sad about these tragedies.

    So y'all carry one with they hysteria, and I'll continue to pray for the deceased and hope that neither one of us are ever victims.
    ITA...If we don't address the need for mental health care it won't matter how strict the gun laws are...the people who are bent on doing these things will find the guns...or worse. It may be harder for them to find the guns with stricter regulations but they will be available on the black market. Mental illness is the deciding factor IMO...more than guns. This phenomenon is not going away so a discussion on the state of access to mental health care in this country is essential.

  15. #265
    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Cases from different circuits are headed to SCOTUS, which will have an opportunity to clarify Heller:

    A provocative ruling by a panel of federal appeals court judges in Chicago struck down the only statewide ban on carrying concealed weapons, in Illinois. The ruling is somewhat at odds with those of other federal courts that have largely upheld state and local gun laws, including restrictions on concealed weapons, since the Supreme Court's landmark ruling declaring that people have a right to have a gun for self-defense.
    http://news.yahoo.com/high-court-fig...100107234.html

  16. #266
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Not surprising at all.

    And the politicians will run and hide, because no one is going to risk the votes of the gun owners of America.

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    In Loving Memory palbert's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Not surprising at all.

    And the politicians will run and hide, because no one is going to risk the votes of the gun owners of America.
    From Meet The Press 0n Twitter this morning:

    BTW, we reached out to ALL 31 pro-gun rights Sens in the new Congress to invite them to share their views on @meetthepress - NO takers.
    No surprise here.

  18. #268
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Only because it's a media storm, and not a persistent nagging problem. News channels are laughing all the way to the bank with people glued on the TV and watching their ads. So 20 kids died, peanuts. That's nothing compared to those young ones murdered in individual incidents by aggravated family members such as crackhead mothers or step parents, or by drunk driving accidents. The only difference is the media doesn't keep a spotlight on when every child dies. Therefore, the sustained pressure by the NRA will win out.
    more cynicism - more every day - shame

    it's not about the media

    it's about our elected officials

    they don't and shouldn't need cnn on a story to make it important

    i actually believe we will have movement and progress here and a rep from the Brady Project was on with Andrea Mitchell the day of the massacre saying the same thing

    so despite our Canadian friend's "nothing happens in america" chant (with apparent glee) I disagree

    this incident will move the needle - perhaps further than it should be moved - because of the specific nature of the massacre

    and i for one hope it does

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    ITA...If we don't address the need for mental health care it won't matter how strict the gun laws are...the people who are bent on doing these things will find the guns...or worse. It may be harder for them to find the guns with stricter regulations but they will be available on the black market. Mental illness is the deciding factor IMO...more than guns. This phenomenon is not going away so a discussion on the state of access to mental health care in this country is essential.
    Thank you.

    And that's should be the real point of discussion here.

    As loki81 pointed out opinions about "gun control" aren't truly swayed hard in one direction or another EVEN after these tragedies.

    The media will start to focus on something else like the ADD searching for advertising whores that they are, and we'll all wait until the next mentally deranged young man takes out another group of innocents, and the debate will began where this one left off with the same results.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  20. #270
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    "gun control" is a term

    and no one knows what it means

    to some it means "you're gonna take the gun i have a right to have and need to protect myself?" No fucking way
    to others it means making it harder/longer/more expensive to get one
    to others it means making it less easy for bad guys to get guns
    etc.

    there's no clear document of "this is what it means" that people can all read and interpret accurately

    it's like $250K taxes - it's every dollar ABOVE $250K, not dollar 1-250K

    misinformation

    misunderstanding

    position taken prior to knowledge

  21. #271
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    more cynicism - more every day - shame

    it's not about the media

    it's about our elected officials

    they don't and shouldn't need cnn on a story to make it important

    i actually believe we will have movement and progress here and a rep from the Brady Project was on with Andrea Mitchell the day of the massacre saying the same thing

    so despite our Canadian friend's "nothing happens in america" chant (with apparent glee) I disagree

    this incident will move the needle - perhaps further than it should be moved - because of the specific nature of the massacre

    and i for one hope it does
    There is no glee. Only sadness.

    The story will completely shift to the mental health aspect and then everyone will be able to throw their hands up in the air because after 4000 years of recorded history no one has ever been able to solve that one.

    ...and there will be the usual outcry about the violence in video games and movies and how it has damaged the children.

    But two weeks from now, no one will even likely remember the name of the gunman or what the fuss was about this week.

    Guaranteed.

  22. #272
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    There are people who are suggesting we ought to address the crisis as a mental health services issue and not a gun-control issue.

    Is there anyone here who would suggest we ought to address the crisis as a gun-control issue and not a mental health services issue?
    “Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved.” ~ Mark Twain

  23. #273
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Murdering children with guns is acceptable though, rareboy, as some Americans here seem displeased at the idea of gun regulation. So, kids will continue to die from bullet wounds. That's the mentality at hand because they want their 'freedom'. If they want to kill children that's fine - they'll go to prison or die as a result.
    blacksyringe

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    There are people who are suggesting we ought to address the crisis as a mental health services issue and not a gun-control issue.

    Is there anyone here who would suggest we ought to address the crisis as a gun-control issue and not a mental health services issue?
    Have you heard any real debate in that direction of this being a mental health crises?

    I haven't.

    It's been about "gun control."

    What happens when those with mental health issues start using pipe bombs, or pepper spray and butcher knives?

    No one really wants to talk about that because the topic is really much more uncomfortable.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by -Callum- View Post
    Murdering children with guns is acceptable though, rareboy, as some Americans here seem displeased at the idea of gun regulation. So, kids will continue to die from bullet wounds. That's the mentality at hand because they want their 'freedom'. If they want to kill children that's fine - they'll go to prison or die as a result.
    this sentiment is in sync with the OP's thread title

    simplistic - cynical - unproductive

    and untrue

    other than that, it's grand

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    this sentiment is in sync with the OP's thread title

    simplistic - cynical - unproductive

    and untrue

    other than that, it's grand
    The logic in my post is what the opposition has been throwing around (aside from Kuli) this entire thread. So, yes. Those opposing gun regulation aren't being reasonable and throwing mental health issues at the matter. Mental health issues are common, yes, but going on a homicidal rampage isn't. People with psychotic breaks aren't necessarily murdering other people.

    It would be most logical to assume the mentally ill, per capita, are committing violent crimes at a far lesser rate than atypical gun violence.
    blacksyringe

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    hundreds die from [drunk driving] every day, because the media does not zoom in on it.
    Your number seemed too high, so I found a link to share.

    Impaired Driving: Get the Facts (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The Viet Cong also had the support of most of their 60 million or so fellow countrymen.
    Which is actually the point, any popular armed uprising in the US will only succeed if the majority of the people favor it, if that is the case it will NOT matter how advanced technology wise the military is because the military itself will be unreliable.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    There are no solutions, political or otherwise, that can respond to isolated incidents.

    Mass murder is not an epidemic or contagious crime. It is still an extremely rare phenomenon, like plane crashes.

    Also, people do not treat drunk driving with similar concern, even though hundreds die from it every day, because the media does not zoom in on it.
    Well, there comes a time when people stop carrying no matter how horrific the crime (such as drunk driving and killing sprees). There was a point during Bush's war that there were suicide bombings every day in Iraq and I can guarantee that not every bombing made it to the press; people just stopped caring.
    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.'' - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Also, people do not treat drunk driving with similar concern, even though hundreds die from it every day, because the media does not zoom in on it.
    The media don't need to zoom in on it... the matter is being addressed = google cars

    The majority of causes of death in society (illnesses, devices causing domestic accidents, products causing poisoning etc...) are being addressed, why not the gun problem?

    Is any gun maker working on a gun that will only work with the fingerprints of it's legal owner?
    Last edited by Nishin; December 16th, 2012 at 11:05 AM.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I see the error in dividing 10228 by 36.5 instead of 365...

    Yet the point still stands...

    10228 fatalities in 2010 due to drunk driving, and people are spinning heads over 20 in a mass murder?

    It's ridiculous.

    And many will agree.

    With only 8775 murders caused by guns in 2011....the likelihood is that they fall into that range of acceptable casualties to the majority of US citizens.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    I wonder to what extent much of the current discussion -- off and on JUB -- is being spurred by occurence of the shooting in Connecticut in the heart of gun resistant Northeast. One is so used to these occurences in the Midwest and West -- gun rights bastions -- one has almost a resigned acceptance. This event strikes in the heart of the Northeast media and power establishment. It will be interesting to see if this tragedy resonates longer in the Northeast and spurs lawmakers to begin addressing all of the issues and possible solutions addressed here.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    During the Vietnam War the United States and its allies lost to a third world raggle, taggle enemy despite being equipped with the most advanced technology on planet earth including helicopters, jet fighters, missiles etc.

    Drones have a well established reputation for killing more innocent bystanders than those being targeted.
    I often heard that the Cong traveled through their caves there. I wondered how they did it until I signed up to the National Geographic. There are pictures that are huge. One looked like it could hide the entire Cong group.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Have you heard any real debate in that direction of this being a mental health crises?

    I haven't.

    It's been about "gun control."

    What happens when those with mental health issues start using pipe bombs, or pepper spray and butcher knives?

    No one really wants to talk about that because the topic is really much more uncomfortable.
    It seems to me that those who will advocate for arms control will also advocate for mental health services. My above post is to elicit if I'm incorrect about that.

    Perhaps there isn't any real debate about this being a mental health crisis because we all agree it is?

    Which brings us back to arms control...
    “Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved.” ~ Mark Twain

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    I thought this was an interesting read -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...es/?tid=pm_pop

    cliffs:

    -high profile cases like this not withstanding, assault rates have been falling dramatically for years (though the US is clearly still high above countries other than Mexico)



    -gun ownership is on the decline



    -many regulations are pretty popular



    regarding that first graph... I really wonder what the US overall would look like if we factored out states that share a border with Mexico.
    Can we please all take 0.2 seconds to look at the final graph in Loki's post and put behind us the idea of "we need to oppose/stifle all discussion of any gun control of any sort because all gun control is the pandora's box with the ultimate goal of confiscating every gun"? We don't even have uniform sensible restrictions in this country on baseline things because the argument slippery slopes SO HARD into "well everyone who wants any restriction REALLY wants the government to confiscate every gun."

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Thank you.

    And that's should be the real point of discussion here.

    As loki81 pointed out opinions about "gun control" aren't truly swayed hard in one direction or another EVEN after these tragedies.

    The media will start to focus on something else like the ADD searching for advertising whores that they are, and we'll all wait until the next mentally deranged young man takes out another group of innocents, and the debate will began where this one left off with the same results.
    It needs to be both. I don't think ANYONE would disagree with you that mental health is a neglected problem in this country and that many people who need help don't have proper access to it. However that isn't the whole picture. The parents of the Columbine shooters didn't seek help for their kids. The Virginia Tech shooter was on meds and went off them. We cannot treat this issue as "this issue would be fixed if only the government hadn't closed down a few public mental health facilities." Unless someone is monitoring a mentally ill person every second of every day there's always a chance they can go off the meds (and this is very common for many people with mental illness), not tell anybody, and go into a manic or psychotic or depressive/suicidal state depending on their situation. And I don't think 20 people should die in a spree shooting because we insisted on absolutely no-checks walk-in gun purchasing and some random x% of severely mentally ill people may go off their meds in any given month.

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Have you heard any real debate in that direction of this being a mental health crises?

    I haven't.

    It's been about "gun control."

    What happens when those with mental health issues start using pipe bombs, or pepper spray and butcher knives?

    No one really wants to talk about that because the topic is really much more uncomfortable.
    It's been about both, Centex. I posted at least twice about Virginia Tech and virtually everyone ignored it. Here was a young man with mental health problems FOR WHICH HE WAS RECEIVING TREATMENT and was on medications. What happened? He went off his meds one day, and walked into a store and bought the guns he carried out his spree with while in a psychotic state. Because Virginia doesn't do any real checks.

    You can't treat the issues as it's-only-one-or-the-other.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    This morning on MSNBC people were talking about banning clips that hold 100 bullets.
    That guy used a clip that holds 100 BULLETS.
    Personally I don't agree to ban guns but this clip is not needed.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    There are people who are suggesting we ought to address the crisis as a mental health services issue and not a gun-control issue.

    Is there anyone here who would suggest we ought to address the crisis as a gun-control issue and not a mental health services issue?
    I know I'm not. Mental health is definitely a problem. However, gun laws in the US enable mentally unstable people, and frankly, this topic is about that, not the state of mental health care. So - perhaps a spin-off topic is necessary?
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Super Long Story Short

    Yes, there are crazy/disturbed people who need help.

    Why should those crazy/disturbed people who either have not received help, have spurned help, or have stopped taking their medication be able to walk into a store and pick up automatic weapons with 100-ammo clips.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Have you heard any real debate in that direction of this being a mental health crises?

    I haven't.

    It's been about "gun control."

    What happens when those with mental health issues start using pipe bombs, or pepper spray and butcher knives?

    No one really wants to talk about that because the topic is really much more uncomfortable.
    What's uncomfortable is the quick jumping to unfounded conclusions. "Oh, but they'll start using pyrocinesis and evil stares if we take away the guns!" is just so much fear mongering. You DON'T KNOW if that will happen. I firmly believe that the easy availability of weapons - of tools specifically designed to kill things (unlike knives, clubs, pepper sprays or what have you) - creates a huge mental difference. I posted something about this and it got ignored.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    ^ These are good suggestions.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    I am not a strict constructionist but if strictly following the intent as could exist at the time of the 2nd Amendment, shouldn't we confiscate all modern weapons and issue muskets.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Any person prescribed SSRI (Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac) should be required to be drug free for one year and cleared by a psychiatrist prior to being removed from the no buy list. (I only use one year for mood altering drugs because that is what the military uses)
    The logic here being, I presume, that a person with untreated mental illness is safer than someone under treatment.

    BTW, there are no medical (or psychiatric) criteria for determining the appropriateness of an individual to buy guns.


    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The justice department should establish a entity in the DEA that regularly does aggressive ID fraud verification against gun sellers. In other words verify that the gun sellers are conducting due diligence in verifying the identity.
    Not sure why the DEA should be involved in regulating gun sellers. Are you suggesting gun dealers don't check IDs because they are also trafficking in controlled substances?

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    1. The logic here being, I presume, that a person with untreated mental illness is safer than someone under treatment.

    2. BTW, there are no medical (or psychiatric) criteria for determining the appropriateness of an individual to buy guns.
    1. No, the logic being that if a person has been off his meds a year under professional observation, then he clearly doesn't need them anymore.

    2. Then such should be established.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I disagree that strict constructionism necessitates a fundamental view of the 2nd Amendment. In this case, I think a strict constructionist would be against a general right to bear arms.

    The Constitution gives a reasoning, not a restriction. Therefore, the inference is that the 2nd amendment is elastic. If Congress wanted to explicitly pass the 2nd amendment mandating unrestricted freedom to militia use of firearms, they would have. My view is, the 2nd Amendment exists to provide citizens with the ability to organize armed resistance, should the need ever arise. It shouldn't matter how unlikely that event is. Of course, that fear was probably more rational in the 18th century than it is today. After all, the Declaration of Independence reads as though citizens should always have the opportunity to throw off tyrannical government, and the Constitution gives state militias the right to preemptive strike.
    In other words, so as to assure efficient mean to throw off a tyrannical government, the Constitution authorizes access to weapons of equal fire power as the government's ones to the militia? ... nukes... chemicals... drones etc etc

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishin View Post
    The media don't need to zoom in on it... the matter is being addressed = google cars

    The majority of causes of death in society (illnesses, devices causing domestic accidents, products causing poisoning etc...) are being addressed, why not the gun problem?

    Is any gun maker working on a gun that will only work with the fingerprints of it's legal owner?
    Actually yes, though not fingerprints that I know of there were several experiments as far back as the 80s in guns that require some token that they user would wear to release the safety. Magnetic rings and such. So far though they haven't come up with a reliable enough mechanism. No one wants to by a 'safe' gun that fails to fire half the time. Biometrics are problematic in a such a small inherently dirty (in computer electronic terms) as a powder fired weapon. They will get there someday but so far the engineering has been to problematic.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    This morning on MSNBC people were talking about banning clips that hold 100 bullets.
    That guy used a clip that holds 100 BULLETS.
    Personally I don't agree to ban guns but this clip is not needed.
    Actually I think it is not likely, they haven't even clearly determined if he took the rifle in the school with him or left it in the trunk (I've heard it reported both ways) and I doubt he had 100 round clips in the hand guns.

    I suspect they are keying on the one witnesses belief that they heard 100 shots but that is one persons subjective account in a highly panic driven situation.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    I am not a strict constructionist but if strictly following the intent as could exist at the time of the 2nd Amendment, shouldn't we confiscate all modern weapons and issue muskets.
    No interpretation of the 2nd amendment would support such an argument. But it makes for a good joke if you like to joke about the issue. Muskets were the 'assault weapons' of their time period and the founders clearly didn't put anything in their discussion suggesting that militia armament be frozen to one time period. Muskets are currently antiques not militia weapons. Weapons for use in an organized militia today would be M16s. If you really want to limit the amendment to the types of weapons the founders meant then you would have to do away with the rather tight restrictions on real machine guns, RPGs and other military grade weapons.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I disagree that strict constructionism necessitates a fundamental view of the 2nd Amendment. In this case, I think a strict constructionist would be against a general right to bear arms.

    The Constitution gives a reasoning, not a restriction. Therefore, the inference is that the 2nd amendment is elastic. If Congress wanted to explicitly pass the 2nd amendment mandating unrestricted freedom to militia use of firearms, they would have. My view is, the 2nd Amendment exists to provide citizens with the ability to organize armed resistance, should the need ever arise. It shouldn't matter how unlikely that event is. Of course, that fear was probably more rational in the 18th century than it is today. After all, the Declaration of Independence reads as though citizens should always have the opportunity to throw off tyrannical government, and the Constitution gives state militias the right to preemptive strike.
    We should remember that the Founders were fond of the idea of NOT having a standing army. The idea was that the state would have organized militias that could be called up to service in the event of a state or national threat to our security.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishin View Post
    In other words, so as to assure efficient mean to throw off a tyrannical government, the Constitution authorizes access to weapons of equal fire power as the government's ones to the militia? ... nukes... chemicals... drones etc etc
    Yes and no, individual militia members were expected to have military grade 'individual' firearms and local arsenals would have crew served weapons. Weapons of Mass Destruction are not 'individual' militia weapons, those would always be under stricter control.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Yes and no, individual militia members were expected to have military grade 'individual' firearms and local arsenals would have crew served weapons. Weapons of Mass Destruction are not 'individual' militia weapons, those would always be under stricter control.
    But WMD didn't exist really exist at the time... maybe their equivalent were... canons?
    Were the militia granted access to canons at their local arsenal back then?

    - If they were, and we transcript the text to modern days, then nukes, chemicals, drones should also be available to militia's local arsenal (which calls the question of defining what militia is in modern days)...
    - If they weren't, and were a monopole of governmental forces, then the whole text is rendered cosmetic and meaningless, ie irrelevant back then and irrelevant now since governmental forces would keep fire power superiority.

    I didn't know the founding father didn't intend for a standing army to remain... but it happened, does it mean the US army represent the militia?

    - If it does, and since it's a governmental body, then the text is irrelevant.
    - If it doesn't and there is no militia, then there is no militia members and gun ownnership by citizen is unconstitutional

    Am I missing something?

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