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  1. #151
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayQueer View Post
    It is shameful that so many are exploiting this tragedy for their political agenda.

    We need to offer our prayers to their families. God give them the strength to handle the loss of their children & family members in such a violent and sudden manner.
    Empty platitudes.

    Go ahead and pray for them. They don't need my empty prayers to any God.

    Why the fuck would God have to give them strength to handle the loss? Because He's maybe 'testing' all of them by not interceding when some nutjob blew their kids away?

    There is nothing fucking political about talking about this, except that some people will claim that everyone who isn't engaging in some meaningless faux grief moment is somehow exploiting this. I say it is the opposite. The news anchors and spokespeople who want to try and convince us that their only concern is for the grief of the bereft families, are the ones exploiting this tragedy by using it to suppress any real discussion at this stage.

    What these families need is to know that this time...all of their children did not die in vain...that real people with real power and influence and real ideas...will finally buckle the fuck down and do something.

    Jesus wept.

  2. #152
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's a good way to put part of it -- a big part.

    But I'll stop cheering for people shooting intruders when the police stop carrying weapons. Since they have no responsibility to protect me, by any rational standard I'm entitled to the same means of defense they have.

    I'll disagree that guns are "a sign of personal weakness"; they're a sign of a responsible human being... or should be. At the same time, I'll throw out Salvor Hardin's maxim relating to the subject: "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent", with the sensible caveat that even the competent sometimes have to yield to using the last resort.
    And that's where the problem lies: too many Americans go for the last resort first. That's what has to change: the urge to use fists or knives or guns right off to "solve" a problem. It would be nice if we could train everyone to react first as I did the last time I got punched in the nose: I asked, "Do you feel better now?"
    I don't understand how you completely nullify that police are there to protect people at all but then say people shouldn't "go to the last resort first" and solve tehir own problems with fists, knives or guns.

  3. #153
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    ^ THIS is precisely the psychology of fear that the NRA and Republicans foster and cultivate.

    The perpetual DANGER of the unspoken THREAT that never happens. The terrifying 'armed intruder' that pervades your mind and that you probably think about on a regular basis. What are the odds? 0.01%? 0.001%?

    And to combat this threat, you MUST HAVE A GUN! You MUST have a gun in your hands to shoot a burglar, LEAVING ASIDE the EXTREME unlikelihood you'll ever have one in your life, AND EVEN THEN that you'd....

    a) even wake up to hear said unlikely burglar before he left,

    b) have your gun readily at hand to fetch in time,

    c) get a chance to confront him face to face before he ran at full speed for the door,

    d) that *gasp* the burglar himself may not be armed,

    e) that *gasp* the burglar may not wish to harm you,

    f) that you had the courage and conviction to shoot him.

    I'm not excusing or condoning burglars or intruders, I'm highlighting the ridiculously slim CHANCE and the psychology of LIVING IN FEAR.

    HenryReardon, if I used your logic, I'd never drive a car. My mind would be filled with car-crash victims and the danger of drunk-drivers, of cars pulling out in front of me, of all the ways there is a GREATER likelihood of me being injured or killed in an accident than of being robbed at home while I was there.

    *I* don't have a gun, and *I* don't feel frightened of sinister bogey-men of my imagination.

    I only wish you could feel the same.
    Home intrusions happen millions of times per year in the US. In a substantial portion of those, the homeowner is armed and orders the bad guy to stand down. Fortunately, most of those end with the bad guy waiting at gunpoint until the cops get there.

    Being ready for that isn't about fear, it's about acknowledging reality and making a choice to be prepared. It's a choice I made, and am still whole and sound because of it. Right there is where the problem with your position lies: you're maintaining that because the risk is low, those who have to face that risk should be left to be helpless victims. You're basically saying that the tiny minority don't matter, that's it's okay for them to be prey to whatever criminal decides violence would be fun.

    And that isn't your decision to make.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #154
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Any gun control that needs to be done is ban all assault weapons, sorry Kuli, along with clips that can hold many bullets. I am not pro gun but I will not own one for myself.
    There's no such thing as an "assault weapon" -- the ONLY thing(s) that distinguish them from other weapons are cosmetic, nothing else. Clinton had such a ban, and the FBI and every other agency said that the effect on crime was nil.

    If you want to "control" such weapons -- let's define them as ones that can take a magazine with twenty or more shots -- the key word is in the Second Amendment itself. I think it can be done without any risk of constitutional challenge -- think on that.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #155
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Empty platitudes.

    Go ahead and pray for them. They don't need my empty prayers to any God.

    Why the fuck would God have to give them strength to handle the loss? Because He's maybe 'testing' all of them by not interceding when some nutjob blew their kids away?

    There is nothing fucking political about talking about this, except that some people will claim that everyone who isn't engaging in some meaningless faux grief moment is somehow exploiting this. I say it is the opposite. The news anchors and spokespeople who want to try and convince us that their only concern is for the grief of the bereft families, are the ones exploiting this tragedy by using it to suppress any real discussion at this stage.

    What these families need is to know that this time...all of their children did not die in vain...that real people with real power and influence and real ideas...will finally buckle the fuck down and do something.

    Jesus wept.
    Cynical atheist intolerance

    The community is a religious one

    Feel free to not grieve and move onto apparently more political matters

    But try to understand that in the United States

    And in newtown, prayers do matter

    And a real and positive sentiment for many make that most

  6. #156
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I realize that gun control is and should be on the table but the bigger issue IMO is the lack of mental health care in this country.

    The gun crowd has at least one point that I agree with...it isn't the gun...it is the person using it...and mental illness is the deciding factor in most cases I can think of at the moment where someone picks up a gun and kills so many people at once. As a country we have a horrible infrastructure to deal with mental health issues and so many people have no access to mental health services that do exist.

    Reagan..as Governor of California...shut down our mental facilities. His claim... "someone would take care of them".
    That's the one thing about Reagan that makes my blood boil. I've watched a good number of people I've known over time end up in jail because there were no longer any facilities where they should have been.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #157
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishin View Post
    Get an alarm ... it's cheaper than a gun and works better as a deterrent
    If burglar breaks in anyway, lock yourself in the room, call 911
    Who can afford an alarm system? I don't think I know more than one person who could.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #158
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Cynical atheist intolerance

    The community is a religious one

    Feel free to not grieve and move onto apparently more political matters

    But try to understand that in the United States

    And in newtown, prayers do matter

    And a real and positive sentiment for many make that most
    If something different in laws or procedures could have saved their kids' lives I guarantee you they'd take that over your prayers any day.

  9. #159
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    If something different in laws or procedures could have saved their kids' lives I guarantee you they'd take that over your prayers any day.
    That would've been great prior

    Now they grieve

    And I imagine one or more of the surviving families will become activists of some sort

    They have cred

    They're not mutually exclusive

    And it's not piety to show proper restraint and respect

    For them and the cause which is to win real reform

  10. #160
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    That would've been great prior

    Now they grieve

    And I imagine one or more of the surviving families will become activists of some sort

    They have cred

    They're not mutually exclusive

    And it's not piety to show proper restraint and respect

    For them and the cause which is to win real reform
    Direct some of that powerful grief into a drive to do something before the NEXT 20 some kids get shot to death senselessly.

    That's far more productive than lecturing people to pray out of some archaic sense of respect.

    You're saying that would have been great "prior" but we are, right now, "prior" to the next big spree shooting. So what do you wanna do? Pray or change?

  11. #161
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    To most of the rest of the world, it is so bizarre that Americans live in perpetual fear of each other and their government.

    This fear is so tangible and visceral that it has become a seething undercurrent to virtually every aspect of society and culture. The country was founded in blood, it expanded westward through blood, it almost ripped itself apart by bloodshed, it invented an organized crime killing spree with Prohibition and has glorified the making and firing of weapons designed to cut another person in half when we all know it only takes half the firepower to mow down a bunch of schoolkids.

    Already, the whole conversation in the US seems to be shifting to 'It is the fault of the mental health system' and away from...how can we make it more difficult for the mentally ill to acquire these types of weapons.

    And this is why there will never be a real conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US. The universal fear of their neighbours, the strangers down the street, the blacks, or even some kind of renegade military force that the nation has spent close to a century bankrupting themselves to outfit with even deadlier force.....
    If we had a mental health system that was better than the equivalent of painting by throwing bottles at a wall, not so many mentally ill would be interested in acquiring weapons. Additionally, with that system in place it would make possible knowing which of them shouldn't have access in the first place.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #162
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Cynical atheist intolerance

    The community is a religious one

    Feel free to not grieve and move onto apparently more political matters

    But try to understand that in the United States

    And in newtown, prayers do matter

    And a real and positive sentiment for many make that most
    Oh puhleeze.

    As I've noted. People can go ahead and pray to their cat for all I care if it makes them somehow feel better about all of this.

    It is, at the end of the day though, a cynical and wasteful exercise when it comes to the dead.

    What they need is something that brings real change and real action.

    The idle prayers of those who are just avoiding coming to terms with the reality of the situation are an insult to them and their families.
    Last edited by rareboy; December 15th, 2012 at 03:58 PM.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    It's not nice to troll.
    Saying the truth is not trolling. If you believe there is anything human left in the people who profit from gun manufacturing, I want some of what you're snoring.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Direct some of that powerful grief into a drive to do something before the NEXT 20 some kids get shot to death senselessly.

    That's far more productive than lecturing people to pray out of some archaic sense of respect.

    You're saying that would have been great "prior" but we are, right now, "prior" to the next big spree shooting. So what do you wanna do? Pray or change?
    It's as if u haven't read my posts

    My points were about:

    Timing and self restraint
    Effectiveness of NRA r terrorists tact

    Re-read what I wrote please and tell me what part is not reasoned

    And if u think trashing the NRA as terrorists in a thread among fellow anti NRA-ers
    Is somehow productive .....

  15. #165
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by EastMed View Post
    Not only do the gun lobby want to maintain the status quo, but actively campaign to shut down research into gun control.



    http://www.salon.com/2012/07/25/the_...n_gun_science/
    That particular study was a joke, wasting millions to "conclude" that "guns can be dangerous". And since guns are not a disease, that's not really where the study of their effects should be.

    I did write the NRA at the time and suggest they partner with a university to do such studying themselves. I got a form letter back.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #166
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    It's as if u haven't read my posts

    My points were about:

    Timing and self restraint
    Effectiveness of NRA r terrorists tact

    Re-read what I wrote please and tell me what part is not reasoned

    And if u think trashing the NRA as terrorists in a thread among fellow anti NRA-ers
    Is somehow productive .....
    The timing thing is irrelevant. If you feel it's tactless to discuss productive ways to try to prevent this kind of tragedy going-forward don't read a thread about exactly that. When your personal moratorium on the topic is up come back in and post?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayQueer View Post
    It is shameful that so many are exploiting this tragedy for their political agenda.

    We need to offer our prayers to their families. God give them the strength to handle the loss of their children & family members in such a violent and sudden manner.
    It is shameful to only offer sympathy when action is required. And my only "political agenda" is that I don't want dead children. Sue me.

    I don't believe in your God. If he can let children be murdered by psychos, I'd be damned before I go pray to him. He already failed those families and isn't worthy of prayer.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  18. #168
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Why would one post in a thread they have declared has no purpose but baiting? Perhaps they seek attention...

    I don't think calling the NRA domestic terrorist on an internet porno discussion thread about politics changes the national perception or conversation anymore than calling homos who are republican similar to Jews for Nazis. It is name calling meant to evoke an emotion and as long as that emotion is evoked the name calling will continue. Pretty simple grade school stuff to be honest.

    NRA is the impediment to an honest conversation. Any politician who mutters a word about changing gun laws is immediately pounced upon. I heard a caller to the local radio show put it best on Friday. The NRA USED to advocate for gun safety however anymore they simply rail against democrats. In reality their tax free status should be revoked as a first step OR they should demonstrate they are not simply a wing of a political party.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  19. #169
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Any person prescribed SSRI (Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac) should be required to be drug free for one year and cleared by a psychiatrist prior to being removed from the no buy list. (I only use one year for mood altering drugs because that is what the military uses)
    What's the one year supposed to accomplish, other than risking the person's health?

    I've been on SSRIs for a long time, and two different psychiatrists have decided that I'm safer with firearms than the typical person on the street.

    And my current doc says he worries about violence from people who drink six cups of coffee a day more than from most of his patients.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    What's the one year supposed to accomplish, other than risking the person's health?

    I've been on SSRIs for a long time, and two different psychiatrists have decided that I'm safer with firearms than the typical person on the street.

    And my current doc says he worries about violence from people who drink six cups of coffee a day more than from most of his patients.
    You think he'd be willing to be legally liable for that statement if one of his patients went on a rampage? I doubt it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post

    Cynical atheist intolerance

    The community is a religious one

    Feel free to not grieve and move onto apparently more political matters

    But try to understand that in the United States

    And in newtown, prayers do matter

    And a real and positive sentiment for many make that most
    The community is a religious one? Right. And JUB is a liberal forum.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  22. #172
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Seriously Kul, are you saying turn kindergartens into armed camps?
    Hardly -- just staff them with responsibly armed citizens.

    People who want to shoot a bunch of other people naturally choose places where no one will shoot back. If even a tenth of all grade schools had armed staff, such shooters would avoid all of them, unless they were determined enough to do research to find out which ones would allow them to kill at kill for a while. That's why rape drops substantially where "shall issue" laws go into effect: people attacking women are into power over them, and the idea of a woman killing them doesn't make for an image of power. Even if only one in thirty women are carrying, the deterrent is there.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Hardly -- just staff them with responsibly armed citizens.

    People who want to shoot a bunch of other people naturally choose places where no one will shoot back. If even a tenth of all grade schools had armed staff, such shooters would avoid all of them, unless they were determined enough to do research to find out which ones would allow them to kill at kill for a while. That's why rape drops substantially where "shall issue" laws go into effect: people attacking women are into power over them, and the idea of a woman killing them doesn't make for an image of power. Even if only one in thirty women are carrying, the deterrent is there.
    In your other posts you've expressed contempt for the idea of police protecting people. I'd be far, far more comfortable with a cop assigned to a school than "armed citizens" posted there. I'm sorry Kul-- I don't share this romantic notion that people running around like modern day minutemen are shining knights and not vigilantes. Such a system would just be waiting for one of them with mental issues or marital problems to become the shooter himself.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I do believe that the guaranteed fame is part of the motivation for large spree-killings. It's certainly more plausible that the media unwittingly partially motivates the method (public killing spree) than what THEY try to blame it on, ridiculous things like "oh look his brother LIKED Mass Effect 2 on facebook! It must be videogames!"

    Mass Effect 2 for anyone unfamiliar is an RPG set in space... it's no more "violent" than Star Wars and wouldn't even make a top 50 list of most violent videogames.
    The characteristics of a shooter can be given out without naming the shooter. Thus the warning effect would be retained and the shooter still denied his fame.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Who can afford an alarm system? I don't think I know more than one person who could.
    Money... once again

    Offer & demand 101

    I guess people prefer the eventuality of having to kill a human being or having their kids shoot themselves by accident over paying for an alarm...

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    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post

    It's as if u haven't read my posts

    My points were about:

    Timing and self restraint
    Effectiveness of NRA r terrorists tact

    Re-read what I wrote please and tell me what part is not reasoned

    And if u think trashing the NRA as terrorists in a thread among fellow anti NRA-ers
    Is somehow productive .....
    Ah, the chance-patented "you worded it inappropriately, so I refuse to participate" approach. Because for the Moral Police it's FAAAAAR more important to maintaining faux propriety at all times than to do something to save lives.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    One other thing I meant to add to my list of things to do to combat this issue.

    Every weapon must be registered to an owner. If a juvenile is found in public (not at a range or hunting) and in possession then the owner of the weapon is charged.

    Eliminate massive capacity magazines. They have no purpose but sustained firepower when something is fighting back....targets and deer dont shoot back. No need for average people to have them or assault rifles.
    Registration is the one thing needed to confiscate all firearms. It would be an invitation to a police state. There's no way that would go over.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    SO besides deflating ideas and offering prayer what do you all advocate for solving this issue. it is obviously getting worse. I know your here mostly as the white knight of guns but offer up something that works?

    I personally would be fine outlawing every weapon that does not require biometric matching to release the safety.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    With proper parenting, there is very little chance that a child will shoot him/herself.
    My father was a hunter and had rifles/shotguns in the house, and a pistol in the night stand.
    He made sure that I knew to never, ever touch any of the above, and made it stick.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Well henry that is a wonderful leave it to beaver story but it does not match the reality of America today where fathers do not often stick around, divorce is the answer to most marital problems and drugging is the method to teach your child not to misbehave.

    So I might as well say that world hunger could be solved if only the moon was actually made of green cheese.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    With proper parenting, there is very little chance that a child will shoot him/herself.
    My father was a hunter and had rifles/shotguns in the house, and a pistol in the night stand.
    He made sure that I knew to never, ever touch any of the above, and made it stick.
    Yeah my parents also told me smoking was bad and to never start... and I'm a smoker now, was it bad parenting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    With proper parenting, there is very little chance that a child will shoot him/herself.
    My father was a hunter and had rifles/shotguns in the house, and a pistol in the night stand.
    He made sure that I knew to never, ever touch any of the above, and made it stick.
    Yeah, gay kids bullied to suicide care deeply for safety.

    That's what we call enabling. It's the giant bane of all pro-gun arguments.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There's no such thing as an "assault weapon" -- the ONLY thing(s) that distinguish them from other weapons are cosmetic, nothing else. Clinton had such a ban, and the FBI and every other agency said that the effect on crime was nil.

    If you want to "control" such weapons -- let's define them as ones that can take a magazine with twenty or more shots -- the key word is in the Second Amendment itself. I think it can be done without any risk of constitutional challenge -- think on that.
    ok, I got the wording wrong. I mean like the magazine with 20 or more shots.
    So what is the gun I'm trying to say. AK45 or something like that? You make me think all the time. Remember that guy in CA that had a gun at a playground that pull the trigger and hold it and all the bullets come out.'
    You know I know nothing about guns.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Oh puhleeze.

    As I've noted. People can go ahead and pray to their cat for all I care if it makes them somehow feel better about all of this.

    It is, at the end of the day though, a cynical and wasteful exercise when it comes to the dead.

    What they need is something that brings real change and real action.

    The idle prayers of those who are just avoiding coming to terms with the reality of the situation are an insult to them and their families.
    This might help with the prayers syndrome.

    Matthew 6:1-6

    “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ...
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    The timing thing is irrelevant. If you feel it's tactless to discuss productive ways to try to prevent this kind of tragedy going-forward don't read a thread about exactly that. When your personal moratorium on the topic is up come back in and post?
    I am

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Going back to the topic, here's the problem with the NRA and its affiliate groups:

    They refuse to have a discussion about gun control. The NRA makes it their mission to oppose *any* gun control legislation. It doesn't matter if it's sensible or saves lives, they will lobby and put out a PR campaign against that legislation until it is repealed by the federal government. Then, when a mass shooting happens, their response is not responsibility in the sales of distribution of guns, rather that not enough people have them. Shootings at schools? "Arm the teachers, arm the principals!" Shootings at hospitals? "Arm the doctors! Arm the nurses!" How does that even remotely make sense that employees who aren't trained to wield firearms are somehow failing at their job if they're not packing heat in their workplace? That's not their job. Their job is to teach, to heal, to provide a service.

    Basically, the NRA and its affiliate groups have created this environment: There are more guns now for every single American citizen in this country than ever before. Gun laws have never been more lax and less regulated in modern history. The NRA has a monopoly over gun policy. That is a widely reported fact. So now when we have these mass shootings where the killer easily has access to these guns, assault rifles, etc. the response is less gun regulation and more guns for everyone!

    It reminds me of the Republican mantra to keep taxing less. Cut taxes and the economy will get better. The economy isn't getting better? Then cut taxes more, that'll solve it. It's madness.
    So far no "gun control" that's been passed has had any demonstrable effect on gun violence. Leaders of "gun control" groups almost universally say their goal is elimination of all firearms. Together these give good reason for the NRA to not trust any proposed "gun control" legislation.

    There's already all the "responsibility in the sales of distribution of guns" the Constitution will allow. SCOTUS has established that a fee can't be charged for exercise of a basic right and that any burden imposed has to be minimal, so imposing costs isn't legit. No right can be subject to the government saying who may exercise it until that person has shown himself incompetent in the exercise, so pre-screening via psychological tests fails -- one two grounds, if the proposal is to charge the person choosing to exercise his right.

    One great problem here is that no one wants to consider the fact that the actual "pro-gun" side has never been applied: arm and train. It's been consistent that people who decide to do mass shootings choose places where no one is going to be armed, so it's only sensible to try that approach.

    But the other side doesn't seem willing to think about anything except penalizing the innocent to try to get at the guilty -- who aren't likely to pay attention anyway. Where are the calls for a national mental health support system? That's an obvious starting place: getting a system in place where troubled people can go for help. There have been projects where mentally ill people can just drop by seven days a week that have shown a drop in petty crime -- I know that's correlation, but with the number of mentally ill in our jails and prisons, it's highly suggestive of causation. And how about one the NRA keeps calling for: "Project Exile" laws for the whole nation so that a criminal who chooses to use a gun will know ahead of time he'll be facing an extra three to ten years that can't be reduced by good time or escaped via parole? That's been shown to work, so why aren't liberals out there working with the NRA to get it passed?

    For that matter, where's the campaign to end the "War on Drugs"? That's known to be the cause of four-fifths of all violent crime.

    The big trouble I see is that the left wants to sweep too broadly and fight for approaches already known to be useless. A campaign after the Arizona shooting tailored to merely identifying people such as the shooter who are already determined to be a risk and putting that information into the instant check system probably would have succeeded -- and arguably would have prevented a shooting or two since then. Tightly tailored solutions will appeal to much of the NRA membership no matter how LaPierre screams.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    ok, I got the wording wrong. I mean like the magazine with 20 or more shots.
    So what is the gun I'm trying to say. AK45 or something like that? You make me think all the time. Remember that guy in CA that had a gun at a playground that pull the trigger and hold it and all the bullets come out.'
    You know I know nothing about guns.
    A gun that fires continuously when the trigger is pulled is called fully automatic or more commonly a machine gun. You have to have a hideously hard and expensive to get Federal license to own one. A lot of misinformed people think the commonly called 'assault weapons' are machine guns but they are not. Most are standard semi-automatic (one trigger pull, one shot) weapons with a few cosmetic features like pistol grips to make them look like military weapons.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Kul I respect your usually rigorous logic on most topics. I'm always a bit jawdropped at how it cuts off on this topic, though. Your position here begs a question of "well if people are going to bend over backwards to commit any crime anyway, why have any laws against crimes at all"?
    No, it's saying that creating conditions that will generate violent crime is stupid, whether it's Prohibition, "War on Drugs", or banning firearms. You could generate violent crime in the country, as Bill Clinton has pointed out, by banning simple everyday items that people want, so banning things or making them extremely difficult to get is merely begging for more violent crime.

    And the conditions for that already exist. Merely the election of President Obama made firearm ownership surge -- try to make them nearly unobtainable, and you'll have a surge that would overwhelm every arms factory in the hemisphere, so that people would start making their own, not just for their own use but to sell for the profit that would result.

    What did Prohibition do? It created criminal gangs that ran cities, and over its period actually increased the alcohol consumption substantially. What did the "War on Drugs" do? It stirred people to create new and more powerful drugs, with sophisticated production and distribution networks. So why should we expect anything different from a "War on Guns"? It will give us even more violence. And it would produce a war between state and federal authorities -- several states have already passed laws authorizing the manufacture of firearms within their states, for the people of their states, and they're not joking.

    People think the NRA has increased gun ownership and gun violence, but the truth is that the threat of a "war on guns" is the culprit. The NRA was never politically active at all until some politicians got the notion in their heads that only an elite group of people should be allowed firearms. All that happened is that gun owners reacted the same way drug users reacted: negatively. It just happened that many gun owners were already politically aware and well-placed, while not many gun fans were -- of course it also happened that firearms are listed in the Constitution as an inherent right that is meant to be protected, and that makes passions run higher.

    If the Democratic party would return to the stance of such past eminences as Hubert Humphrey, it would provide a basis for progress. OTOH, the well has been poisoned by liberal arrogance toward gun owners that it could be a generation before there's any trust between gun owners and the Democrats.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It would have stopped Virginia Tech, Kul.
    You're claiming the shooter there was happy and stable beforehand? That's what I was addressing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    A lot of these spree shootings are middle class to affluent white males of privilege, Kul. Columbine, this latest one too.
    They could use those "Houses of Refuge", too.

    Others would be "caught" by the modification to the Instant Check System I suggested after Arizona.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Wanting to try to find ways to prevent this kind of thing from happening =/= "pursuing a political agenda."
    Definitely.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Really if you want to pinpoint any sort of cause for the rise in shootings, I would blame the deinstitutionalization of America or as I like to call it, "minimum security prison". In the 80s when all the mental hospitals started to close and all the "mentally hilarious" were unleashed on the masses, no doubt some of the reproduced and well, said offspring have come of age.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    I've never quite understood the focus on 'assault weapons', they like most long rifles represent the smallest portion of gun violence. They are not practical for most criminal activity due to their size, and same goes for committing suicide with one. What little I've read indicates that the assault weapons ban before it expired had practically no measurable effect on crime. Even in cases like this one where one may have been used, eliminating that gun would not have appreciably changed the outcome, just the type of gun that was used. A focus on limiting the capacity of magazines would be more effective than banning the scary looking weapons would be.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Just a comment for the "shut up and say some prayers" contingent:

    Once when in Chicago for a series of outdoor meetings (a la Billy Graham), evangelist Dwight L. Moody was praying with a group of businessmen who were helping organize the "crusade". When one began to pray that God would provide finances, and then another that God would aid the poor, Moody interrupted the prayers and chastized them for asking for things God had already provided: he told them that God had given them wealth, which was the means to achieve both those things, and God expected them to use what He had given just as He expected everyone else to act with what they had been given.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I don't understand how you completely nullify that police are there to protect people at all but then say people shouldn't "go to the last resort first" and solve tehir own problems with fists, knives or guns.
    It's no different than pointing out that one does not use a hand grenade to kill a cockroach.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Saying the truth is not trolling. If you believe there is anything human left in the people who profit from gun manufacturing, I want some of what you're snoring.
    There was no truth in his statement, only slander.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You think he'd be willing to be legally liable for that statement if one of his patients went on a rampage? I doubt it.
    When he worries that way about one of his patients, he tells them, and documents his recommendation that they cut down the caffeine. And twice while I've known him he has in fact gone to court to testify that he did recommend such a reduction, and his patient did not follow the recommendation. Fortunately the "rampages" involved were on the level of trashing a bar.

    His worry about me is that given where I live and the attitude toward gays here, I wouldn't actually be able to shoot to defend myself.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Lulu, you imply that weapons are an everyday item of necessity that people want. It is not the former and people can be better educated so they drop the paranoia needed for the latter.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  48. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    When he worries that way about one of his patients, he tells them, and documents his recommendation that they cut down the caffeine. And twice while I've known him he has in fact gone to court to testify that he did recommend such a reduction, and his patient did not follow the recommendation. Fortunately the "rampages" involved were on the level of trashing a bar.

    His worry about me is that given where I live and the attitude toward gays here, I wouldn't actually be able to shoot to defend myself.
    Um, then move?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    In your other posts you've expressed contempt for the idea of police protecting people. I'd be far, far more comfortable with a cop assigned to a school than "armed citizens" posted there. I'm sorry Kul-- I don't share this romantic notion that people running around like modern day minutemen are shining knights and not vigilantes. Such a system would just be waiting for one of them with mental issues or marital problems to become the shooter himself.
    The police have no legal duty to protect anyone -- the courts have said so over and over, all the way up to the Supreme Court's multiple declarations about it.

    People carrying weapons do seem to be "shining knights": they have a seriously lower crime rate than the general population. And I'd rather trust people to be responsible than be a coward hiding behind a system that pretends to protect but can't.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  50. #200
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishin View Post
    Money... once again

    Offer & demand 101

    I guess people prefer the eventuality of having to kill a human being or having their kids shoot themselves by accident over paying for an alarm...
    No, people prefer to have food on their tables and warm beds for their kids and money for the doctor and a vehicle for getting to work. Dishing out a sizable portion of annual income instead to get a fancy electronic system just isn't an option.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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