NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

[xbuzzerx]

yeah - suggesting that if the kid who committed these heinous acts were black/muslim, etc. - things would be diff

is very much indicative of your struggle with this

and if u really want to make sure this doesn't happen again, u might start by trying to engage in a meaningful dialogue about guns not referring to people who disagree with you as terrorists or less worthy

then maybe u can sit with angels

I'm completely confident they would be different. You wouldn't be talking about praying, you'd be talking about the war on terror.

By the way this is not the True Believers forum-- coming into a topic and telling people NOT to discuss it because "They should be praying" is a ridiculous attempt to derail discussion. We got it. Yo uthink people should do nothing but pray (and certainly not think about gun laws.) You can go now.

[rareboy]

More than any other organization, the NRA has been the most instrumental in making sure that unrestricted gun use in America is actually more important than motherhood.

To those on either side of the argument, the NRA is the ultimate enabler of the deadly force culture in America today.

I notice that so far in this thread, you, along with many other apologists out there, appear to have no real suggestions...just admonishments for anyone else who is suggesting that solutions need to be found.

So tell us. What do you think is the answer?

Dazzle us.

[JayHawk]

I think the problem is multi-faceted. If I were to take an approach I would do the following:

Acknowledge guns are not going away and even acknowledge that murder rates are declining while understanding that mass murder incidents are on the rise.

Acknowledge that countries exist with 100% gun ownership but somehow their culture is different and does not provide fertile grounds for mass murder.

Acknowledge that gun ownership is at its lowest percentage ever per capita.

Acknowledge that something else is awry in a society that has always had guns all of a sudden developing this mass murder problem.

So then for action:
Every loop hole that allows guns to be purchased with no background check should be eliminated.

The no buy list should be mandatory across all fifty states.

Any person prescribed SSRI (Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac) should be required to be drug free for one year and cleared by a psychiatrist prior to being removed from the no buy list. (I only use one year for mood altering drugs because that is what the military uses)

The justice department should establish a entity in the DEA that regularly does aggressive ID fraud verification against gun sellers. In other words verify that the gun sellers are conducting due diligence in verifying the identity.

Finally, aggressively implement the ACA to ensure effective mental health care is available for ALL citizens.

Edit: Just thought of... aggressively pursue not allowing teens to play first person shooter games for hours on end thereby training a killing attitude. Restrict such things to 18+

[Kulindahr]

Maybe if government was even ALLOWED to discuss gun regulation, instead of the topic being off limits because of NRA lobbying, it wouldn't have come to the point where something has to be done immediately.

The liberals never want government to discuss actual regulation, they only want it to discuss restrictions. The two are not the same.

Yeah, let's vague it up and throw in some right wing hot button issues like abortion, so that it's diluted enough to be safe to just TALK about without having to do anything about it. Yes, people always kill people. So we should be making it hard for them, not easier.

What you propose to "make it hard for them" serve even more to make it easier for them to victimize citizens.

I'm curious about the solutions those who do NOT espouse gun-control would propose?

First, identify places where these things are likely to happen; train the personnel in use of handguns and defense tactics; require at least half of those personnel to be armed on any given day. Second, somehow establish a ban on reporting/publishing multiple shootings except in bare facts/statistics, and definitely not the shooter's name.

At the same time, an education program beginning in first grade, as I've set out before.

[JayHawk]

yeah - suggesting that if the kid who committed these heinous acts were black/muslim, etc. - things would be diff

is very much indicative of your struggle with this

and if u really want to make sure this doesn't happen again, u might start by trying to engage in a meaningful dialogue about guns not referring to people who disagree with you as terrorists or less worthy

then maybe u can sit with angels

You are of the misconception that this would be a different discussion if it was a black inner city or if the killer were a radical Muslim bent on destroying America?

That is denying reality.

[xbuzzerx]

The liberals never want government to discuss actual regulation, they only want it to discuss restrictions. The two are not the same.



What you propose to "make it hard for them" serve even more to make it easier for them to victimize citizens.



First, identify places where these things are likely to happen; train the personnel in use of handguns and defense tactics; require at least half of those personnel to be armed on any given day. Second, somehow establish a ban on reporting/publishing multiple shootings except in bare facts/statistics, and definitely not the shooter's name.

At the same time, an education program beginning in first grade, as I've set out before.

Seriously Kul, are you saying turn kindergartens into armed camps?

[JayHawk]

Second, somehow establish a ban on reporting/publishing multiple shootings except in bare facts/statistics, and definitely not the shooter's name.

This is a misguided attempt at blaming the media. What happened when we discussed in detail the Aurora Shooter? Parents in Springfield Missouri noticed the same attributes in their child, contacted authorities and stopped a mass murder plan in its tracks.

[chance1]

You are of the misconception that this would be a different discussion if it was a black inner city or if the killer were a radical Muslim bent on destroying America?

That is denying reality.

call me crazy - ur off ignore again

if the killer is crazy - and it's not a political thing - or a terrorist thing - just a crazy thing

the color of the killer is irrelevant

crazy is crazy and has no color

i didn't bring the bullshit up - one of the 85 did and rareboy jumped on

so i jumped on

i agree with all of your gun comments

[JayHawk]

Seriously Kul, are you saying turn kindergartens into armed camps?

You know the one question I have... I will be accused of blaming the victims of course because that is the knee jerk when all aspects are reviewed.

However every school now has lock down procedures for an active shooter. It is simply a sad fact. This kid shot the principal first and that shooting was broadcast in the schools PA system.

Why were the two classrooms open then after the fact?

Most likely because people freeze and freak out. It is human nature.

What they need is a system that can either central lock the doors or simply auto locking doors when they close.

[Kulindahr]

The NRA has lobbied so hard to deregulate any and all guns it could possibly manage that I don't know what else you'd call them. Not to mention their maniacally cynical tweets and Facebook messages after some of the bigger mass shootings. Banning all guns? Probably not. Making sure a grueling screening process is needed so that you could own and carry a weapon - especially in the urban areas - hell yes! Fear mongering becomes meaningless. Frankly, if I have to chose between a few more mugged people and dead children, I'm gonna go with the mugging.

Are you also willing to put in place a "grueling screening process" to decide who can engage in free speech? to determine who can be allowed to run a media organization? to discern who can be permitted to peaceably assemble? to differentiate between those who do or do not deserve the protection of a warrant? to detail just who can be permitted to not testify against himself?

[Kulindahr]

Me too. As I said in the other topic, those were 5-year olds. They could not have been armed, so there is no way they could have defended themselves - which is the usual gun lobby response to those things. "If only they'd had more guns, this would have been avoided" is a card not in play this time. So?

Wow -- I'm amazed that some five-year-olds managed to become principal, school psychologist, and teachers. Why haven't there been any media reports of these amazing people?

[JayHawk]

call me crazy - ur off ignore again

if the killer is crazy - and it's not a political thing - or a terrorist thing - just a crazy thing

the color of the killer is irrelevant

crazy is crazy and has no color

i didn't bring the bullshit up - one of the 85 did and rareboy jumped on

so i jumped on

i agree with all of your gun comments

Ok your crazy... I rarely gain from interaction so i could care less what level of ignore you have me on...

Forget the 85. That is a fact. Due to racism and our current wars if it was those minorities then the discussion WOULD be different. I have no doubt all of the perps are crazy. The discussion however would be different.

For the Muslim things like "what do you expect from a people who have one goal and that is our death"
For the Black community it is always "Waht is wrong with the black family that this happens"

Has anyone ask so far what was wrong with the family or what kinda religion this fucktard had? NOPE and they are unlikely to do so...

[xbuzzerx]

This is a misguided attempt at blaming the media. What happened when we discussed in detail the Aurora Shooter? Parents in Springfield Missouri noticed the same attributes in their child, contacted authorities and stopped a mass murder plan in its tracks.

I do believe that the guaranteed fame is part of the motivation for large spree-killings. It's certainly more plausible that the media unwittingly partially motivates the method (public killing spree) than what THEY try to blame it on, ridiculous things like "oh look his brother LIKED Mass Effect 2 on facebook! It must be videogames!"

Mass Effect 2 for anyone unfamiliar is an RPG set in space... it's no more "violent" than Star Wars and wouldn't even make a top 50 list of most violent videogames.

[rareboy]

I think the problem is multi-faceted. If I were to take an approach I would do the following:

Acknowledge guns are not going away and even acknowledge that murder rates are declining while understanding that mass murder incidents are on the rise.

Acknowledge that countries exist with 100% gun ownership but somehow their culture is different and does not provide fertile grounds for mass murder.

Acknowledge that gun ownership is at its lowest percentage ever per capita.

Acknowledge that something else is awry in a society that has always had guns all of a sudden developing this mass murder problem.

So then for action:
Every loop hole that allows guns to be purchased with no background check should be eliminated.

The no buy list should be mandatory across all fifty states.

Any person prescribed SSRI (Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac) should be required to be drug free for one year and cleared by a psychiatrist prior to being removed from the no buy list. (I only use one year for mood altering drugs because that is what the military uses)

The justice department should establish a entity in the DEA that regularly does aggressive ID fraud verification against gun sellers. In other words verify that the gun sellers are conducting due diligence in verifying the identity.

Finally, aggressively implement the ACA to ensure effective mental health care is available for ALL citizens.

Edit: Just thought of... aggressively pursue not allowing teens to play first person shooter games for hours on end thereby training a killing attitude. Restrict such things to 18+

Thank You.

[JayHawk]

One other thing I meant to add to my list of things to do to combat this issue.

Every weapon must be registered to an owner. If a juvenile is found in public (not at a range or hunting) and in possession then the owner of the weapon is charged.

Eliminate massive capacity magazines. They have no purpose but sustained firepower when something is fighting back....targets and deer dont shoot back. No need for average people to have them or assault rifles.

[Kulindahr]

Reinstating the assault weapons ban is a start that actually has a chance of happening.

And would be nothing but feel-good legislation, as every law enforcement agency in the country has acknowledged that when it was done under Clinton it had no discernable effect on crime. Since the number of crimes in which such (defined by aesthetics) guns are used is minuscule, it's a waste of Congress' time to even discuss it.

Obviously, people in this country need an AR15 to go shooting rabbits.

So tired of this country's backwardness.

People have been hunting rabbits with guns like the AR15 since before WWI. Personally, I prefer a bolt-action, but that's -- just as the definition of "assault weapon" -- a purely aesthetic consideration.

[xbuzzerx]

You know the one question I have... I will be accused of blaming the victims of course because that is the knee jerk when all aspects are reviewed.

However every school now has lock down procedures for an active shooter. It is simply a sad fact. This kid shot the principal first and that shooting was broadcast in the schools PA system.

Why were the two classrooms open then after the fact?

Most likely because people freeze and freak out. It is human nature.

What they need is a system that can either central lock the doors or simply auto locking doors when they close.

A system like this could also lock the killer in an enclosed space with students, though.

- - - Updated - - -

One other thing I meant to add to my list of things to do to combat this issue.

Every weapon must be registered to an owner. If a juvenile is found in public (not at a range or hunting) and in possession then the owner of the weapon is charged.

Eliminate massive capacity magazines. They have no purpose but sustained firepower when something is fighting back....targets and deer dont shoot back. No need for average people to have them or assault rifles.

These are very reasonable ideas.

[Rolyo85]

1. Asking people to not talk about reasons and how to prevent such tragedies because we should be praying instead - especially considering not everyone here is religious - is an intellectually dishonest, shallow and hypocritical PARTISAN stance.

2. Claiming whoever did it, the conversation would be the same is also a dishonest PARTISAN stance.

3. But ESPECIALLY claiming that those who are outraged about the senseless murder of children, don't care at all and are just being partisan - without knowing ANYTHING about their personal circumstances and what the abuse of innocence might mean to them - is the MOST DISHONEST PARTISAN STANCE OF ALL.


[Text: Removed by Moderator]

[xbuzzerx]

And would be nothing but feel-good legislation, as every law enforcement agency in the country has acknowledged that when it was done under Clinton it had no discernable effect on crime. Since the number of crimes in which such (defined by aesthetics) guns are used is minuscule, it's a waste of Congress' time to even discuss it.

The fact that you mention crime without qualification and later mention that only a small part of overall crime involves guns, that leads me to believe you're saying that the total volume of crime, most of which is drug related, didn't go down.

That doesn't say anything about gun restrictions working/not working. No one has claimed that gun restrictions will get more people off drug addictions.

[Kulindahr]

We need a very strict national law on gun.

Owning few guns (1-3)
hand guns only
A thorough psychological exam
No more 8 in a clip
Proper training in how to gun. The training should be closer to police training in firearms
Closing the loophole in gun show

If we can control the number of guns and who can use them. It could lower crimes involving firearms.

If we applied the arguments/positions in here about the 2nd amendment to the 1st, then the government would ration the number of words a citizen can speak, the type of speech the citizen can engage in, etc. etc.

BTW, fact check: there's no such thing as a "gun show loophole".

Reality check: the number of guns cannot be controlled, and therefore neither can who can use them. People already make their own firearms, and if guns get restricted they'll do so even more.

[rareboy]

One other thing I meant to add to my list of things to do to combat this issue.

Every weapon must be registered to an owner. If a juvenile is found in public (not at a range or hunting) and in possession then the owner of the weapon is charged.

Eliminate massive capacity magazines. They have no purpose but sustained firepower when something is fighting back....targets and deer dont shoot back. No need for average people to have them or assault rifles.

And again...thank you.

This is the kind of discussion and ideas that are needed so much right now. These could all be part of the solution.

[chance1]

Ok your crazy... I rarely gain from interaction so i could care less what level of ignore you have me on...

Forget the 85. That is a fact. Due to racism and our current wars if it was those minorities then the discussion WOULD be different. I have no doubt all of the perps are crazy. The discussion however would be different.

For the Muslim things like "what do you expect from a people who have one goal and that is our death"
For the Black community it is always "Waht is wrong with the black family that this happens"

Has anyone ask so far what was wrong with the family or what kinda religion this fucktard had? NOPE and they are unlikely to do so...

sweet as always

racism will never die not until everyone is not

but the injection that IF the killer was black/muslim, etc. ...... IS BULLSHIT and typical

but I'll play

The kid is black - his mom is black - same circumstances

how is the story different? already we're hearing that the white mom had guns - why ??? how is the story different?

bottom line is the kid is crazy - the brother says he's been nuts for years - what's that got to do with his color ?

who would extend a narrative that black crazy is somehow worse/diff from white crazy? cnn? msnbc ?

how different would the story be?

if it was a muslim of course the terror angle would be checked and with good reason based on history - that's not prejudice that's fear based on history - but cnn/msnbc and most mainstream media outlets wouldn't cover it - and if it was established there was a terror angle then they should follow up and if there wasn't they shouldn't

that's the best u got "no one asking what religion he was"?

talk about looking for trouble or to stir a pot of nothing and for what reason?

more invisible demons and enemies

and bill o'reilly has been talking forever about added penalties for any crimes committed with guns

[Kulindahr]

Yeah, cause people willfully misunderstand what the 2nd Amendment was actually written for.

Right. Liberals pretend it's about hunting. The people who penned it meant to put teeth into the right to insurrection.

That's a false claim. The number of legal guns has never gone down all across the board, it's always been isolated places surrounded by places with lax gun control. The real comparison needs to always be with OTHER countries where gun controls are strict.

There are no countries with sufficient equivalencies.

[xbuzzerx]

sweet as always

racism will never die not until everyone is not

but the injection that IF the killer was black/muslim, etc. ...... IS BULLSHIT and typical

but I'll play

The kid is black - his mom is black - same circumstances

how is the story different? already we're hearing that the white mom had guns - why ??? how is the story different?

bottom line is the kid is crazy - the brother says he's been nuts for years - what's that got to do with his color ?

who would extend a narrative that black crazy is somehow worse/diff from white crazy? cnn? msnbc ?

how different would the story be?

if it was a muslim of course the terror angle would be checked and with good reason based on history - that's not prejudice that's fear based on history - but cnn/msnbc and most mainstream media outlets wouldn't cover it - and if it was established there was a terror angle then they should follow up and if there wasn't they shouldn't

that's the best u got "no one asking what religion he was"?

talk about looking for trouble or to stir a pot of nothing and for what reason?

more invisible demons and enemies

and bill o'reilly has been talking forever about added penalties for any crimes committed with guns

The story WOULDN'T be different in its core, Chance. But the discussion and the kneejerk reactions people would have in the discussion WOULD be different, and this is not what-if, it's what happens every single time. If someone is even remotely Mediterranean in extraction in this kind of story the first thought in everyone's mind is terrorism and like three days have to pass before people catch on that no, it wasn't a terrorist attack. If the kid were black don't tell me that Fox and O'Reilly wouldn't at this VERY MOMENT be doing specials on rap music and violent black gang culture.

[Rolyo85]

I think the problem is multi-faceted. If I were to take an approach I would do the following:

Acknowledge guns are not going away and even acknowledge that murder rates are declining while understanding that mass murder incidents are on the rise.

Acknowledge that countries exist with 100% gun ownership but somehow their culture is different and does not provide fertile grounds for mass murder.

Acknowledge that gun ownership is at its lowest percentage ever per capita.

Acknowledge that something else is awry in a society that has always had guns all of a sudden developing this mass murder problem.

So then for action:
Every loop hole that allows guns to be purchased with no background check should be eliminated.

The no buy list should be mandatory across all fifty states.

Any person prescribed SSRI (Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac) should be required to be drug free for one year and cleared by a psychiatrist prior to being removed from the no buy list. (I only use one year for mood altering drugs because that is what the military uses)

The justice department should establish a entity in the DEA that regularly does aggressive ID fraud verification against gun sellers. In other words verify that the gun sellers are conducting due diligence in verifying the identity.

Finally, aggressively implement the ACA to ensure effective mental health care is available for ALL citizens.

Edit: Just thought of... aggressively pursue not allowing teens to play first person shooter games for hours on end thereby training a killing attitude. Restrict such things to 18+

This is what I want to hear from gun rights people. Even if I don't agree with everything in this post, I agree with enough of it, and I see actual reasoning, other than "Guns are a RIGHT, and we will die if they take our guns because we will be slaves!!!!1"

[xbuzzerx]

There are no countries with sufficient equivalencies.

Which is precisely why it's a cherry picked position to say it must be culture when more immediate factors differ in the comparison and we make no serious attempt overall to stop crazy or disturbed people from getting assault weapons or large ammo clips or whatever else.

The Virginia Tech shooter, the deadliest school shooting in the U.S., was on medications for PSYCHOTIC BEHAVIOR and walked right into a store and bought his guns, Kul. Would that have been possible in the UK?

[chance1]

The story WOULDN'T be different in its core, Chance. But the discussion and the kneejerk reactions people would have in the discussion WOULD be different, and this is not what-if, it's what happens every single time. If someone is even remotely Mediterranean in extraction in this kind of story the first thought in everyone's mind is terrorism and like three days have to pass before people catch on that no, it wasn't a terrorist attack. If the kid were black don't tell me that Fox and O'Reilly wouldn't at this VERY MOMENT be doing specials on rap music and violent black gang culture.

you're off ignore too - it's the holidays

why are you projecting what the response would be or might be? it's like you're wishing for bad things from people - NRA types, NRA sympathizers, religious right, etc.

ALL americans are horrified by this - the kids being the primary victims makes it all the more so

mental illness knows no color

knee jerk muslim shoot em up ....... yeah ...... some and perhaps me ....... thinks "terror attack" ? but that's based on 911 and other events and stated goals by our enemies - so I don't think that's unreasonable

but once any facts like these come out - and they come out quick - crazy is crazy

i don't agree with your depiction of o'reilly on this - at all

this was not a gang violence thing - he'd be all over that - and rightly so - if it was

my simple stupid take on societal ills is this:

we are so de-sensitized to violence - gore - in movies - tv - videos - videogames - KAGOY - kids are getting older younger - is a term that is true

standards on TV for violence have been lessened - i truly think this has an impact

[JayHawk]

Chance,
Again your very long argument that the people involved are crazy I have no objection to so why you are making that argument I have no idea.

So Chance what was the component talked about besides mass violence when the Sikh Temple was shot up? MSNBC has a special on Sikh violence and prejudice. CNN did a special on religious based violence.

The conversation was NOT what is it that causes mass shootings. What are the root causes... it was deflected.

In Chicago you could call it a rolling mass shooting but 1600% more deaths have occurred there and guess what? We have barely had a discussion on the topic. A survivor from Columbine had a petition to request the POTUS Candidates discuss gun control in the Denver debate... thousands wanted answers... guess what wasn't discussed? Terror was??? Black violence was??? granted both were given lip service but they at least got a mention.

This is however a complete side story. Who really gives a fuck?

How about what is the root cause of our failure to live peacefully as a society and how can we alter that course?

And this is the time. I agreed and did not post yesterday because there was no cause to have a debate moments after they died. JUST like I belittled Romney and his crack team of dumbshits for getting political in Benghazi before the body got cold... however thios is day two and it is time to have the discussion.

Have a look at MSNBC, CNN or FOX... discussion underway for the nation. We most certainly can follow suit.

[chance1]

^I'm fine with discussion now - it has to happen

o/w there is no solution

but it's not calling the NRA terrorists

as that has no impact other than to perhaps turn off people who might listen and give their support

i think it's similar to gay marriage - demonizing opponents is not the answer

it never is

i don't know the details about the sikh temple

i have no idea why Pres. Obama has not to date tried harder - it's a mystery to me - esp. after colorado and arizona

had to be political

now there's no excuse - he's a lame duck - he can do what he likes

and in this case that's good

[xbuzzerx]

you're off ignore too - it's the holidays

why are you projecting what the response would be or might be? it's like you're wishing for bad things from people - NRA types, NRA sympathizers, religious right, etc.

ALL americans are horrified by this - the kids being the primary victims makes it all the more so

This thread isn't about the proper psychological reaction or prayer method for this incident. It's ultimately about the role our laws and advocacy groups like the NRA play in this kind of situation being possible/happening.

And I'll tell you why people's reaction and immediate association of causes based on someone's ethnic background is relevant-- because one of the big arguments from the anti-gunrestriction crowd is that the issue for us as Americans is CULTURAL. But when a black American does this, people immediately think crime/gangs/rap. When an Arab American does this people immediately bitch about Islam or terrorism or Muslims. When a white person does this people talk about mental health.

Well, let's talk culture then if people want to blame culture. Let's address why the overwhelming majority of public spree killings are white males. Because if we're going to acknowledge that people treat the causes differently based on background, and they DO, then let's drop the facade that this is an "American culture problem" when in reality this is a primarily white male type of crime. Why is that?

mental illness knows no color

I like how the issue is colorblind if the guy's white.

[Rolyo85]

Meanwhile, in Bizzaro World:

“Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun.”

[Just_Believe18]

Going back to the topic, here's the problem with the NRA and its affiliate groups:

They refuse to have a discussion about gun control. The NRA makes it their mission to oppose *any* gun control legislation. It doesn't matter if it's sensible or saves lives, they will lobby and put out a PR campaign against that legislation until it is repealed by the federal government. Then, when a mass shooting happens, their response is not responsibility in the sales of distribution of guns, rather that not enough people have them. Shootings at schools? "Arm the teachers, arm the principals!" Shootings at hospitals? "Arm the doctors! Arm the nurses!" How does that even remotely make sense that employees who aren't trained to wield firearms are somehow failing at their job if they're not packing heat in their workplace? That's not their job. Their job is to teach, to heal, to provide a service.

Basically, the NRA and its affiliate groups have created this environment: There are more guns now for every single American citizen in this country than ever before. Gun laws have never been more lax and less regulated in modern history. The NRA has a monopoly over gun policy. That is a widely reported fact. So now when we have these mass shootings where the killer easily has access to these guns, assault rifles, etc. the response is less gun regulation and more guns for everyone!

It reminds me of the Republican mantra to keep taxing less. Cut taxes and the economy will get better. The economy isn't getting better? Then cut taxes more, that'll solve it. It's madness.

[Kulindahr]

Yeah, I'm sure people from Illinois or Washington State will just drive down to Mexico for guns.

They go there for drugs, or the drugs are brought to them -- there's no reason at all to believe the same wouldn't happen with drugs.

Already military weapons are being smuggled into Mexico from central America and then into the U.S. If indeed criminals found guns harder to get, they'd just adjust the market and make that a bigger pipeline -- or they'd start making them at home.

[xbuzzerx]

They go there for drugs, or the drugs are brought to them -- there's no reason at all to believe the same wouldn't happen with drugs.

Already military weapons are being smuggled into Mexico from central America and then into the U.S. If indeed criminals found guns harder to get, they'd just adjust the market and make that a bigger pipeline -- or they'd start making them at home.

Kul I respect your usually rigorous logic on most topics. I'm always a bit jawdropped at how it cuts off on this topic, though. Your position here begs a question of "well if people are going to bend over backwards to commit any crime anyway, why have any laws against crimes at all"?

[Kulindahr]

Do you have ANY basis in the real world to show that this would happen? Are Europe and other regions with strict gun control absolutely overrun with violent crime from black market weapons?

I'll tell you why we "don't acknowledge that we're wrong", it's because every single thing the pro-gun side says about why absolutely nothing would change a thing seems entirely made up on the spot and requires us to accept that everything in the U.S. will happen the complete opposite of how it happened everywhere else.

It's already happening: firearms flow from other countries into Mexico and from Mexico into the US. And there is also already a huge black market in weapons -- make them harder to get, and it will just grow.

[xbuzzerx]

It's already happening: firearms flow from other countries into Mexico and from Mexico into the US. And there is also already a huge black market in weapons -- make them harder to get, and it will just grow.

Of course this is within the greater context of a nation and country which on the whole has made NO earnest attempt comprehensively to control these weapons, and laws vary so greatly from region to region and state to state and even county to county that the concept that there has been a monolithic, earnestly enforced law against some of the worst offender weapons nationwide and "nothing changed anyway because of smuggling from Mexico" is a farcical piece of evidence.

[Kulindahr]

Does America have 200 times more people? And the whole culture and legal system thing is an empty argument. Obviously there is a problem with the current culture and legal system and it needs changing if people are to stop mass shooting each other, no?

The culture that needs changing is only peripherally related to firearms. It comes from two major factors: a culture of win-at-all-costs, and a culture of I'll-do-what-I-please. If we could get back to the earlier belief that I am my brother's keeper and that every man is my neighbor -- something the heirs of the Puritans calling themselves 'evangelicals' have managed to eliminate from their "Christian nation" notion -- people wouldn't decide they have to "win" in a way that means death to others, and people would know they can turn to others for help when they have problems instead of being all alone.

[xbuzzerx]

The culture that needs changing is only peripherally related to firearms. It comes from two major factors: a culture of win-at-all-costs, and a culture of I'll-do-what-I-please. If we could get back to the earlier belief that I am my brother's keeper and that every man is my neighbor -- something the heirs of the Puritans calling themselves 'evangelicals' have managed to eliminate from their "Christian nation" notion -- people wouldn't decide they have to "win" in a way that means death to others, and people would know they can turn to others for help when they have problems instead of being all alone.

You are getting extremely near the core of what I was alluding to but did not say when I brought up the racial/cultural element.

[Kulindahr]

No one is advocating for the banning of all hand guns here. No one is saying we should take away guns from everybody. So why are there certain members on this forum that are so defensive about gun control over massacres like this? We can make an enormous difference in regulating the sales and distribution of guns in this country that would protect citizens while safeguarding the rights of armed citizens. I just don't understand why "pro-gun," NRA advocates don't want to have a conversation about this.

The problem is that this kind of discussion can only go toward eliminating firearms from honest citizens. The leading "gun control" advocates have admitted that, and they're right to do so, because there are no restrictions that can be imposed that will keep these things from happening, which means that more and more restrictions will be imposed until they can finally just take everyone's guns away. At that point they will have handed the field to the criminals, who because they don't care about the law anyway aren't going to give up anything.

We already have background checks. We could do a bit about people who've already shown themselves to be dangerous. But there's nothing at all that can be done to keep someone who's given every indication of being happy and stable from suddenly flipping out and deciding to for whatever reason go start flinging lead about at high velocity. The only thing that can be done is to have people ready to end the threat when it appears.

[chance1]

They just reported

Msnbc

Doctor who examined 7 of the child victims

3 to 11 gun shot wounds each
From a rifle
Devastating damage

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...icer-says?lite

[Kulindahr]

We both know it has to do with revenue from gun sales, that's their crowning glory in life profiting from mass killings of innocents

It's not nice to troll.

[Kulindahr]

Nobody in China murdered any school kids on December 14.

A man stabbed 22 kids on December 14. Not one of the kids died.

That's because the would-be murderer only had access to a knife - not an assault rifle.

No one in the US has access to an assault rifle without a license from the federal government.

[xbuzzerx]

The problem is that this kind of discussion can only go toward eliminating firearms from honest citizens. The leading "gun control" advocates have admitted that, and they're right to do so, because there are no restrictions that can be imposed that will keep these things from happening, which means that more and more restrictions will be imposed until they can finally just take everyone's guns away. At that point they will have handed the field to the criminals, who because they don't care about the law anyway aren't going to give up anything.

We already have background checks. We could do a bit about people who've already shown themselves to be dangerous. But there's nothing at all that can be done to keep someone who's given every indication of being happy and stable from suddenly flipping out and deciding to for whatever reason go start flinging lead about at high velocity. The only thing that can be done is to have people ready to end the threat when it appears.

It would have stopped Virginia Tech, Kul.

[Kulindahr]

There will never be a conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US.

America is a culture of guns.

There's a constant conversation about responsible gun ownership in the U.S. At the NRA it has resulted in the world award-winning "Eddie Eagle" program and a whole pile of hard-hitting laws aimed at criminals who think they need guns.

I don't expect much rational conversation about much of anything from the lobbying branch of the NRA and their cheerleader Wayne LaPierre, though.

[Kulindahr]

It is indeed time for a debate on gun control and, more broadly, on why there is an aggressive culture of violence in the US.

Some sensible voices here:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...wtown-shooting

You're calling the meanderings of a man who's been rebuked by the U.S. Department of Justice and at least three states for interfering with ongoing investigations, because he was wasting public funds by butting into the affairs of other jurisdictions "sensible"?


BTW, I can give you one reason why there's a culture of violence: too many people have no hope of their lives getting better.

[Kulindahr]

I think those affected by Timothy McVeigh would disagree with your first paragraph.

With something like 300 million guns in this country, and 4 million coming on line every year. it seems disingenuous to single out the NRA. We need an effective mental health system to maybe ameliorate these disasters. I don't see that gun registration solves the problem.

The government would never fund it so long as there are new-style Republicans, but I propose a system inspired by the Old Testament system of "cities of refuge" -- except not cities; call them "Houses of Refuge", where anyone feeling despair or whatever can go for help without worrying about the bill. I think it would more than pay for itself.

[JayQueer]

It is shameful that so many are exploiting this tragedy for their political agenda.

We need to offer our prayers to their families. God give them the strength to handle the loss of their children & family members in such a violent and sudden manner.

[xbuzzerx]

The government would never fund it so long as there are new-style Republicans, but I propose a system inspired by the Old Testament system of "cities of refuge" -- except not cities; call them "Houses of Refuge", where anyone feeling despair or whatever can go for help without worrying about the bill. I think it would more than pay for itself.

A lot of these spree shootings are middle class to affluent white males of privilege, Kul. Columbine, this latest one too.

- - - Updated - - -

It is shameful that so many are exploiting this tragedy for their political agenda.

We need to offer our prayers to their families. God give them the strength to handle the loss of their children & family members in such a violent and sudden manner.

Wanting to try to find ways to prevent this kind of thing from happening =/= "pursuing a political agenda."

No one is trying to get elected President as the guy promising to stop school shootings, so can we stop with the faux outrage over "omg people politicizing this"?

[Kulindahr]

The problem is not the gun culture per se. It is the culture that violence (especially including guns) is an acceptable (even honorable) problem-solving device. No where but the USA are people heralded for shooting intruders who break into their homes. We need to teach our children that violence - however righteous the underlying cause may be - is not an acceptable means of conflict resolution. We need to show our kids that guns are not an indicator of strength, but rather a sign of personal weakness. Truly honorable and strong individuals find more respectful ways to deal with the problems of life.

That's a good way to put part of it -- a big part.

But I'll stop cheering for people shooting intruders when the police stop carrying weapons. Since they have no responsibility to protect me, by any rational standard I'm entitled to the same means of defense they have.

I'll disagree that guns are "a sign of personal weakness"; they're a sign of a responsible human being... or should be. At the same time, I'll throw out Salvor Hardin's maxim relating to the subject: "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent", with the sensible caveat that even the competent sometimes have to yield to using the last resort.
And that's where the problem lies: too many Americans go for the last resort first. That's what has to change: the urge to use fists or knives or guns right off to "solve" a problem. It would be nice if we could train everyone to react first as I did the last time I got punched in the nose: I asked, "Do you feel better now?"

[Kulindahr]

There is quite obviously SOMETHING wrong in the United States when tragedies like this KEEP ON happening, again and again and again. If you were to take the equivalent population of Europe (or for that matter anywhere else) there simply IS NOT the CONTINUAL outbreak of mass spree killings and shootings.

What America needs is a period of 'self-reflection' to ask themselves what exactly is it about their collective psyche/culture that has led a wave of mostly young men to become complete psychopathic nutjobs with the desire to gun down men, women and children on murderous rampages.
. . . .

A shift in public opinion is the only thing that will break the deadlock. That will take a long time.

It tragically is going to take even MORE deaths and even WORSE than this for it to STOP being a fucking POLITICAL argument.

Far too many Americans will immediately respond that "self-reflection" is for wimps.