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  1. #51
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Gun control ≠ Gun Ban

    Stop twisting the gun control argument to serve yours

  2. #52
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    I just don't understand why "pro-gun," NRA advocates don't want to have a conversation about this.
    We both know it has to do with revenue from gun sales, that's their crowning glory in life profiting from mass killings of innocents

  3. #53
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Does America have 200 times more people? And the whole culture and legal system thing is an empty argument. Obviously there is a problem with the current culture and legal system and it needs changing if people are to stop mass shooting each other, no?
    There seems to be a stronger correlation between a history and culture of glorified gun violence and mass murder than with gun laws.

    That might explain why the gun law/violence correlation you are using for Europe doesn't play out in the United States.

  4. #54
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Yeah, I just don't believe the whole "Americans are more violent and it just won't work with them without guns", as if it's some drug that they're hooked on and will die without.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  5. #55
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah, I just don't believe the whole "Americans are more violent and it just won't work with them without guns", as if it's some drug that they're hooked on and will die without.
    It seems to be so. I don't see another explanation for why states with highest gun crime have the strictest laws.

  6. #56
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    The guy in China that murdered 22 children at a school the same day of Newtown would beg to differ about the ease of killing.
    Nobody in China murdered any school kids on December 14.

    A man stabbed 22 kids on December 14. Not one of the kids died.

    That's because the would-be murderer only had access to a knife - not an assault rifle.

    You seem to be trying to make a case that banning access to assault weapons would be futile because knives are just as lethal. If that were true, there would have been no reason to invent the rifle, would there?

  7. #57
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    There will never be a conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US.

    America is a culture of guns.

  8. #58
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    There will never be a conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US.

    America is a culture of guns.
    It's also a culture of alcohol too, and 10,000 people die each year from drunk driving in the US.

    It doesn't mean we can't have responsible consumption of either guns or alcohol.

  9. #59
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post

    Do something productive . . . . say a prayer for the families of those that were killed and the family of the murderer.
    yes because praying to an invisible "god" actually gets anything done

  10. #60

    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    It is indeed time for a debate on gun control and, more broadly, on why there is an aggressive culture of violence in the US.

    Some sensible voices here:

    Minutes after Obama spoke there was strong response from the most high-profile figure in the country advocating gun control, New York mayor Michael Bloomberg, who called for an end to what he described as this madness.

    "President Obama rightly sent his heartfelt condolences to the families in Newtown. But the country needs him to send a bill to Congress to fix this problem. Calling for 'meaningful action' is not enough. We need immediate action," Bloomberg said.

    "We have heard all the rhetoric before. What we have not seen is leadership – not from the White House and not from Congress. That must end today."

    New York governor Andrew Cuomo took a different view. In a statement paying tribute to the victims of "this senseless and horrific act of violence", Cuomo said: "While we don't have all the facts and our focus must be on the victims, this is yet another senseless and horrific act of violence involving guns. We as a society must unify and once and for all crack down on the guns that have cost the lives of far too many innocent Americans. Let this terrible tragedy finally be the wake-up call for aggressive action and I pledge my full support in that effort."
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...wtown-shooting

  11. #61

    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by nfgrls View Post
    yes because praying to an invisible "god" actually gets anything done
    I'll pray for you.

  12. #62
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    if I know one thing, it's that guns are required for mass murders... certainly, no one has killed and injured hundreds of people using a cargo van and some fertilizer from Home Depot.

    you're not going to see the political will to make guns illegal England-style in your lifetime. it's probably not worth the exhaustion trying to push for it... I think increased availability of mental health and knowledge/training to spot disturbed individuals ahead of time would go a lot further towards suppressing violence.
    I think those affected by Timothy McVeigh would disagree with your first paragraph.

    With something like 300 million guns in this country, and 4 million coming on line every year. it seems disingenuous to single out the NRA. We need an effective mental health system to maybe ameliorate these disasters. I don't see that gun registration solves the problem.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    There will never be a conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US.
    I agree. It will never happen.

    You see it in the threads on this site about Newtown. "Now is not the time to discuss this."

    Of course, there never is a time to discuss it, ever. We are forever too close or too far from a tragedy to try to do something about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    America is a culture of guns.
    The problem is not the gun culture per se. It is the culture that violence (especially including guns) is an acceptable (even honorable) problem-solving device. No where but the USA are people heralded for shooting intruders who break into their homes. We need to teach our children that violence - however righteous the underlying cause may be - is not an acceptable means of conflict resolution. We need to show our kids that guns are not an indicator of strength, but rather a sign of personal weakness. Truly honorable and strong individuals find more respectful ways to deal with the problems of life.

  14. #64

    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    perhaps an aside to the whole issue is the idea that originally the right to bear arms was the right of every citizen to oppose an armed and possibly dangerous government . Practically you are much more likely to be shot by an agent of the government , a policeman , than by a criminal .
    Last edited by csb999; December 15th, 2012 at 06:31 AM.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    There is quite obviously SOMETHING wrong in the United States when tragedies like this KEEP ON happening, again and again and again. If you were to take the equivalent population of Europe (or for that matter anywhere else) there simply IS NOT the CONTINUAL outbreak of mass spree killings and shootings.

    What America needs is a period of 'self-reflection' to ask themselves what exactly is it about their collective psyche/culture that has led a wave of mostly young men to become complete psychopathic nutjobs with the desire to gun down men, women and children on murderous rampages.

    To say that having countless thousands of guns and rifles readily legally available and for sale in shop windows and supermarkets and stores across the country has NOTHING to do with it is staggering self-delusion beyond belief.

    Additionally there may be the extra problem of a failure of public mental health services and the ready identification and either treatment and/or institutialisation of these terrible individuals.

    The first stage in this process in to admit SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE. But when like everything else in America the debate is FORCIBLY POLITICISED and when gun control and better public health become 'what Democrats think' (boo, hiss) then NOTHING will be done. EVEN in the wake of unspeakable tragedies like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    There will never be a conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US.

    America is a culture of guns.
    A shift in public opinion is the only thing that will break the deadlock. That will take a long time.

    It tragically is going to take even MORE deaths and even WORSE than this for it to STOP being a fucking POLITICAL argument.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    . Truly honorable and strong individuals find more respectful ways to deal with the problems of life.
    Tell us how an 'honorable and strong' individual would deal with an armed intruder in his home????

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    There are many, many people who would say that shouting about the guns and culture of violence that led to the senseless deaths of these children at this time is showing respect.

    More respect, in fact, than brushing it all under the rug again like a dirty little embarrassment until the buzz dies down and the story is pushed out of the news cycle...thereby once again guaranteeing that no conversation will take place.
    Last edited by rareboy; December 15th, 2012 at 07:10 AM.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Tell us how an 'honorable and strong' individual would deal with an armed intruder in his home????
    ^ THIS is precisely the psychology of fear that the NRA and Republicans foster and cultivate.

    The perpetual DANGER of the unspoken THREAT that never happens. The terrifying 'armed intruder' that pervades your mind and that you probably think about on a regular basis. What are the odds? 0.01%? 0.001%?

    And to combat this threat, you MUST HAVE A GUN! You MUST have a gun in your hands to shoot a burglar, LEAVING ASIDE the EXTREME unlikelihood you'll ever have one in your life, AND EVEN THEN that you'd....

    a) even wake up to hear said unlikely burglar before he left,

    b) have your gun readily at hand to fetch in time,

    c) get a chance to confront him face to face before he ran at full speed for the door,

    d) that *gasp* the burglar himself may not be armed,

    e) that *gasp* the burglar may not wish to harm you,

    f) that you had the courage and conviction to shoot him.

    I'm not excusing or condoning burglars or intruders, I'm highlighting the ridiculously slim CHANCE and the psychology of LIVING IN FEAR.

    HenryReardon, if I used your logic, I'd never drive a car. My mind would be filled with car-crash victims and the danger of drunk-drivers, of cars pulling out in front of me, of all the ways there is a GREATER likelihood of me being injured or killed in an accident than of being robbed at home while I was there.

    *I* don't have a gun, and *I* don't feel frightened of sinister bogey-men of my imagination.

    I only wish you could feel the same.

  19. #69
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by AngolaZee View Post
    America = 311 million therefore 1 gun murder for every 31 000 people
    Australia = 22 million therefore 1 gun murder for every 440 000 people

    BIG DIFFERENCE

    Extrapolate 311 million / 22 million = 14

    14 X 50(Australian murders) should equate to 700 gun murders in USA not 10 000
    BIGGER DIFFERENCE

    Japan Population = 128 million. Number of gunshot deaths: two (2) this year.
    Therefore, 1 gun murder for every 64 million people. I'm surprised there were that many.

    Go figure.

    ...with history the final judge of our deeds. - JFK

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    That just about the most ridiculous post ever writen in these forums.
    And for the record, I don't own an gun and never have. However, should I feel the need, I should have the right to acquire one without the government ever knowing about it.

    And with the breakdown of society that is inevitable under our Marxist/socialist president, that day may be sooner rather than later.

  21. #71
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed by Moderator]
    Agreed. I don't recall waiting for a day after 9/11, so why now? I am not saying "ready - fire - aim" but the discussion -- e.g., the Brady Bill -- needs to be reinvigorated. Delay is a cop-out and a way of dismissing the dead.
    Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 07:26 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster

  22. #72
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    palbert posted that there are 300 million guns in the US. To ban all guns would still leave 300 million in the US. What do you do then? Go around collecting guns from all the citizens? Impossible.
    What needs to be done is protect the children in school. I remember quite a lot of schools got those metal detectors that are used in court houses. Put one at each school. The CT schools had all the doors locked except the front one.
    Another thing is this guy was the son of a teacher. His brother said he had mental issues before. His family needed to be sure he was getting help for it.
    Everyone who has a family member with mental issues needs to get them help.
    There was a gun "show" last weekend. Apparently they cannot hold them here in Corpus Christi, so they go to an adjacent county.
    Any gun control that needs to be done is ban all assault weapons, sorry Kuli, along with clips that can hold many bullets. I am not pro gun but I will not own one for myself.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    America has a habit -- fed by the 24 hour media cycle and our history -- off going into an hysterical gnashing of teeth when something like this happens; and once sufficiently lamented and lack of responsibility is expatiated, forgetting about it. Columbine taught us nothing. With measured thought now Newtown will.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    I realize that gun control is and should be on the table but the bigger issue IMO is the lack of mental health care in this country.

    The gun crowd has at least one point that I agree with...it isn't the gun...it is the person using it...and mental illness is the deciding factor in most cases I can think of at the moment where someone picks up a gun and kills so many people at once. As a country we have a horrible infrastructure to deal with mental health issues and so many people have no access to mental health services that do exist.

    Reagan..as Governor of California...shut down our mental facilities. His claim... "someone would take care of them".

  25. #75
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Some mental issues are beyond helping apart from keeping these people sedated or immobilised for some of them there is really little that can be done from a psychological/medical perspective. Thats why we have institutions for the criminally insane but you cant send them there BEFORE they commit the crime

    - - - Updated - - -

    What is a kindargaten teacher doing with 3 guns

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by AngolaZee View Post
    Some mental issues are beyond helping apart from keeping these people sedated or immobilised for some of them there is really little that can be done from a psychological/medical perspective. Thats why we have institutions for the criminally insane but you cant send them there BEFORE they commit the crime

    [
    No, but family and friends can pick up clues. The indicators were there before Columbine, and information is coming out that the Newtown shooter displayed certain symptoms.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    ^ So what you are saying is what, exactly?

    Make it more difficult or impossible for the mentally ill to purchase guns?

    Or incarcerate all the mentally ill because they might commit a crime?

    Or charge all the people who 'should have known' with accessory to the crime?

    Just what are you saying here when on the other hand you are saying that anyone should be allowed to buy as many weapons as possible?

    Explain.

    Please.

  28. #78
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by AngolaZee View Post
    Some mental issues are beyond helping apart from keeping these people sedated or immobilised for some of them there is really little that can be done from a psychological/medical perspective. Thats why we have institutions for the criminally insane but you cant send them there BEFORE they commit the crime
    I don't think it is the answer...just a necessary part of the equation. I'd like to know that we have a mental health program in our country that is readily available to people who need it and that everyoen has access to mental health care. I have no way of knowing if this would curtail any of the violence...past, present or future...but I think that there is a strong possiblity that it might help. These types of things are planned in advance and I have to beleive that somewhere along the line they might have considered getting help?

    What is a kindargaten teacher doing with 3 guns
    Good Question. She must have known her son had mental issues. WTF is she doing with guns in the house?

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    you're not going to see the political will to make guns illegal England-style in your lifetime. it's probably not worth the exhaustion trying to push for it... I think increased availability of mental health and knowledge/training to spot disturbed individuals ahead of time would go a lot further towards suppressing violence.
    I agree entirely. Not a complete knee-jerk reaction with a massive bureaucracy which sequesters and interrogates anybody and everybody who makes a fleeting comment that he wouldn't mourn if somebody took out [insert name of politician, etc. here], or somebody who comments about hating lawyers or Muslims or Democrats or panhandlers. Just because somebody "hates" something doesn't mean that they're going to run around setting sleeping homeless people on fire, or shooting up a Republican campaign office, or a synagogue, etc.

    However, we need a strong and easily accessible mental health system. Mental health care in the United States is entirely backwards, because it is RARELY available to the people who are most likely to need it. Are there any government-run or subsidized, mental health facilities in the United States at all anymore? Ever since the Ronald Reagan budget entirely crashed the system in I think 1982, it has been very difficult for people to find mental health care. Many health insurance policies do not (I THINK) cover mental health care. I'm NOT sure if Medicare or Medicaid does??? I've known people for many years (including at least one person on this site currently in December alone) who has been daunted by the byzantine efforts one has to go through in the U. S. if they need health care but don't have tons of money available. I knew two guys who worked at a mental institution in Dixon, Illinois which was in fact shut down (NOW it's a prison) in the early 1980's and I'm haunted by their tale about patients who they had bonded with, coming up to them crying and scared because they were being kicked out, with no place to go, bring given only $50 and a bus ticket to Chicago. Even worse, the doors were shut in the middle of winter (either THAT place, or others, I'm not sure). There is nothing wrong with needing and seeking mental health care.

    That was a death sentence to some of these patients.

    It seems that these mass shootings/murders started in the Eighties as well. Is there a connection here? I can't see any connection with any reality to make 2012 such a horrific year for this type of thing, though, compared to 2006 or 1997.

    But, ever since trashing the mental health system, the Republicans irretrievably lost me for life, with no chance of forgiveness...ever. THE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM WAS AN INTEGRAL PART OF MY OWN DEVELOPMENT, thankfully it existed and was easily available when I was an adolescent, and I'm sure that I would no longer be ALL OF THESE - alive, not insane, and not incarcerated if it had been 1994 instead and I didn't have the access when coming from a family of modest means.

    Where and how do most people get mental healthcare? I assume that most people, who need it, simply go wanting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Maybe if government was even ALLOWED to discuss gun regulation, instead of the topic being off limits because of NRA lobbying, it wouldn't have come to the point where something has to be done immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed by Moderator]
    Again, if the hurdles to the psychpaths who may be able to benefit from treatment weren't so extreme, perhaps there wouldn't be as many of them running around with worsening problems. Often the development of full-blown psychopathy can be arrested or at least slowed down or managed, if therapy is more available.

    Gun regulation could indeed include registration of weapons, and I don't see how that would interfere with the Second Amendment. I don't even see how limitations on the types of weapons (sort of like the Brady Bill...does that still exist, or did it have a sunset in it?) would violate the Second Amendment, but that Amendment is there for reasons additional to self-defense. Limiting the type of weapon makes it much easier for weapons to be seized if this Government were to go in that direction...and yesterday's shooter surely would have still been able to obtain the guns he used. He probably lives within a couple miles of a secret arsenal which can supply firearms illegally. It's probably about 150 years too late to pass ANY kind of laws which surely keeps illegal guns away from criminals, because there are simply too many guns available, secretly, to anybody who really wants one.

    The day that semi-automatic weapons are outlawed, only criminals will have semi-automatic weapons.

    But a 22-caliber rifle isn't going to do much good for self-defense (as it takes too long to aim it properly, and the bullet may not even stop an intruder), nor will it be an effective weapon against government goons attired in bulletproof clothes if there was suddenly a roundup and search on all powerful weapons. Some gun-control people say that "even powerful weapons aren't going to be effective against the government tanks and troops" but, in the end, to round the weapons up, the government gestapo needs to get out of their tanks and try to seize the weapons - let alone that the Military is nowhere near large enough to be in more than a very small fraction of all places at any given time. It's not like all the guns could be sought (and, as much as possible, seized) on Tuesday the 10th or something.

    The gun issue fully has the traits of MANY issues in the 21st Century - where there are no **GOOD** answers or alternatives!
    Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 07:24 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster
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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Tell us how an 'honorable and strong' individual would deal with an armed intruder in his home????
    Get an alarm ... it's cheaper than a gun and works better as a deterrent
    If burglar breaks in anyway, lock yourself in the room, call 911

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Agreed. I don't recall waiting for a day after 9/11, so why now? I am not saying "ready - fire - aim" but the discussion -- e.g., the Brady Bill -- needs to be reinvigorated. Delay is a cop-out and a way of dismissing the dead.
    Actually we're in complete disagreement

    And I don't recall 911 discussion day of even remotely like this

    Which is good

    The noisiest here have no outrage for the dead

    They show no respect for the dead

    It's a political moment

    And it's poorly done

    At least the president did the right thing

    And his press lackey carney the same

    Perhaps this is one instance where the lovers should have followed suit

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    That's a false claim. The number of legal guns has never gone down all across the board, it's always been isolated places surrounded by places with lax gun control. The real comparison needs to always be with OTHER countries where gun controls are strict.
    While there is a valid point there, but there is a flaw in the logic. If strict gun control is implemented in a city or county and gun violence goes up in reference to the surrounding areas then you can't simply explain it away on how the guns are being obtained.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    To most of the rest of the world, it is so bizarre that Americans live in perpetual fear of each other and their government.

    This fear is so tangible and visceral that it has become a seething undercurrent to virtually every aspect of society and culture. The country was founded in blood, it expanded westward through blood, it almost ripped itself apart by bloodshed, it invented an organized crime killing spree with Prohibition and has glorified the making and firing of weapons designed to cut another person in half when we all know it only takes half the firepower to mow down a bunch of schoolkids.

    Already, the whole conversation in the US seems to be shifting to 'It is the fault of the mental health system' and away from...how can we make it more difficult for the mentally ill to acquire these types of weapons.

    And this is why there will never be a real conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US. The universal fear of their neighbours, the strangers down the street, the blacks, or even some kind of renegade military force that the nation has spent close to a century bankrupting themselves to outfit with even deadlier force.....

    Obam has said today that something must be done. That a conversation has to be had on the topic.

    Let's see how many days it takes....particularly as a harried nation tries to forget all of this while they binge over the Christmas holidays. I can guarantee you that by January 4th, 2013....all of this horror will have been mostly forgotten by so many of the people who are accusing everyone else of just not being 'sensitive' enough today.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    ^ thanks for "friendly" advice

    Mr "I talk for the rest of the world"

    Unbelievable

    I actually think that the death of little kids has the public

    Much like with gay marriage

    Re thinking the real issue

    But thanks for your "concern"

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Trust me. Once the fiscal cliff bullshit starts hitting the 24 hour news cycle...the Newtown massacre will just be a footnote to 21012 for the media.

    The media fixation on the Obama appointments will push the town's grief and everyone's horror out of the way come January.

    Someone will hold hearings, somewhere and people will testify and deliver more platitudes sometime in 2013 and then all will be forgotten except for annual memorials on the news for the first few years marking the anniversary.

    The NRA and the manufacturers of these guns who want to get one in everyone's Christmas stockings this year rely on the long term amnesia of the American public. So they will lie low for awhile after shovelling out the usual platitudes themselves and then maybe even cash in on the fear that gun ownership might be more restricted as everyone loads up on as many as they can.
    Last edited by rareboy; December 15th, 2012 at 11:18 AM.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group






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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Sounds like, to me, that the whole family is nuts.
    Mother, no info on why she was at the school. Not registered as a teacher, my be substitute.
    Mother, a survivalist. That's why she got all the guns,. Expecting the fiscal cliff bringing problems.
    Paranoid much?
    Oh yeah, it was on MSNBC right now.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    No one is advocating for the banning of all hand guns here. No one is saying we should take away guns from everybody. So why are there certain members on this forum that are so defensive about gun control over massacres like this? We can make an enormous difference in regulating the sales and distribution of guns in this country that would protect citizens while safeguarding the rights of armed citizens. I just don't understand why "pro-gun," NRA advocates don't want to have a conversation about this.

    If condolences and prayers are all you want to offer as a solution to these mass murder/suicides, then you're saying we can do nothing. I find that fucking unacceptable to do nothing. So let's talk about it, and let's work towards a solution that decreases the chances of this ever happening again.
    This is where the pro-gun thought process turns religious/magical. You start hearing things like "evil visited us today" and similar thoughts. Basically, the mindset seems to be "well evil is out there, you can't stop it, so stop talking about gun laws." I guess there's less evil in Europe and Canada and Japan? Dunno. Shrug. Your guess as to how that logic works is as good as mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    There is quite obviously SOMETHING wrong in the United States when tragedies like this KEEP ON happening, again and again and again. If you were to take the equivalent population of Europe (or for that matter anywhere else) there simply IS NOT the CONTINUAL outbreak of mass spree killings and shootings.

    What America needs is a period of 'self-reflection' to ask themselves what exactly is it about their collective psyche/culture that has led a wave of mostly young men to become complete psychopathic nutjobs with the desire to gun down men, women and children on murderous rampages.
    I know people are going to eyeroll at this but seriously-- think about if as many spree shooters had been any other ethnic group besides white males how different the tone of the overall discussion on this topic would be. I say this not to create controversy but because when it's a white male people immediately start talking about what's wrong with our CULTURE or what's wrong with our MENTAL HEALTH STATE, but if this had been a string of spree shootings by Arab Americans, black Americans or whatever other-Americans, those would not be the first things discussed and they'd definitely be distant seconds after a discussion revolving around something prejudicially inherent to their ethnic background-- "terrorists", "thugs/criminals", etc.

    That is not, of course, to say that I don't believe that it's in some part cultural and in some part psychological/related to mental health. It most certainly is. But I think an elephant in the room is the fact that spree shooters ARE predominantly white males and I think there's cultural reasons for that.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Tell us how an 'honorable and strong' individual would deal with an armed intruder in his home????
    It's a little astonishing to me that that is not obvious to you.

    This is exactly what I'm talking about. You cannot seem to imagine an alternative to a threat that is not also violence. Therein lies the problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed by Moderator]
    If it's not about never discussing, then why does your side never want to discuss it?


    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed by Moderator]
    I'm glad you recognize the stupidity of your party's own arguments.

    Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    There are many, many people who would say that shouting about the guns and culture of violence that led to the senseless deaths of these children at this time is showing respect.

    More respect, in fact, than brushing it all under the rug again like a dirty little embarrassment until the buzz dies down and the story is pushed out of the news cycle...thereby once again guaranteeing that no conversation will take place.
    Yes, exactly.

    Arguing that we cannot discuss a problem because the problem is at hand is itself extremely disrespectful to everyone, not just the people who died and their families. When airplanes were used to kill people on 9/11, we acted immediately to ban all airplane use, until we could figure out a way to make it safer. We didn't say "Let's not talk about preventing people from flying, since that would be disrespectful to the people who died." It is never disrespectful to try to save the lives of innocent people.

    We can shut down all air traffic and impose amazingly inconvenient restrictions on people who only want to travel. And yet, somehow, we are not permitted as a nation even to discuss making gun use safer, because that might make gun use slightly less convenient.

    Why is that?


    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    ^ THIS is precisely the psychology of fear that the NRA and Republicans foster and cultivate.

    The perpetual DANGER of the unspoken THREAT that never happens. The terrifying 'armed intruder' that pervades your mind and that you probably think about on a regular basis. What are the odds? 0.01%? 0.001%?

    And to combat this threat, you MUST HAVE A GUN! You MUST have a gun in your hands to shoot a burglar, LEAVING ASIDE the EXTREME unlikelihood you'll ever have one in your life, AND EVEN THEN that you'd....

    a) even wake up to hear said unlikely burglar before he left,

    b) have your gun readily at hand to fetch in time,

    c) get a chance to confront him face to face before he ran at full speed for the door,

    d) that *gasp* the burglar himself may not be armed,

    e) that *gasp* the burglar may not wish to harm you,

    f) that you had the courage and conviction to shoot him.

    I'm not excusing or condoning burglars or intruders, I'm highlighting the ridiculously slim CHANCE and the psychology of LIVING IN FEAR.

    HenryReardon, if I used your logic, I'd never drive a car. My mind would be filled with car-crash victims and the danger of drunk-drivers, of cars pulling out in front of me, of all the ways there is a GREATER likelihood of me being injured or killed in an accident than of being robbed at home while I was there.

    *I* don't have a gun, and *I* don't feel frightened of sinister bogey-men of my imagination.

    I only wish you could feel the same.
    Thanks, ChickenGuy.

    You get it.


    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed by Moderator]
    How is it that refusing to discuss a problem is not "brushing it off?"

    Your insistence that we should not be allowed to discuss ways to prevent children from being killed is rather offensive. How long must we wait to begin the process of trying to save lives? How many more kids must die before it's okay to talk?
    Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 07:22 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This is where the pro-gun thought process turns religious/magical. You start hearing things like "evil visited us today" and similar thoughts. Basically, the mindset seems to be "well evil is out there, you can't stop it, so stop talking about gun laws." I guess there's less evil in Europe and Canada and Japan? Dunno. Shrug. Your guess as to how that logic works is as good as mine.



    I know people are going to eyeroll at this but seriously-- think about if as many spree shooters had been any other ethnic group besides white males how different the tone of the overall discussion on this topic would be. I say this not to create controversy but because when it's a white male people immediately start talking about what's wrong with our CULTURE or what's wrong with our MENTAL HEALTH STATE, but if this had been a string of spree shootings by Arab Americans, black Americans or whatever other-Americans, those would not be the first things discussed and they'd definitely be distant seconds after a discussion revolving around something prejudicially inherent to their ethnic background-- "terrorists", "thugs/criminals", etc.

    That is not, of course, to say that I don't believe that it's in some part cultural and in some part psychological/related to mental health. It most certainly is. But I think an elephant in the room is the fact that spree shooters ARE predominantly white males and I think there's cultural reasons for that.
    Well I'm not rolling my eyes. I've been sitting here thinking about it for a day now. And waiting for someone to bring it up, It is part of the reason that these events always get glossed over, somehow. I have even thought that if this guy had been branded a raving homosexual on a spree killing ...it would be the gays and not the guns that would be the main topic of conversation today.

    But expect just about everyone to shout this point down
    Last edited by rareboy; December 15th, 2012 at 12:06 PM.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    If it's not about never discussing, then why does your side never want to discuss it?
    there's no "side" - i'm happy to discuss it - and i've shared my thoughts on gun control - i don't have a gun - don't want a gun - too many bad things can happen IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I'm glad you recognize the stupidity of your party's own arguments.

    Thank you.
    [Text: Removed by Moderator]

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    How is it that refusing to discuss a problem is not "brushing it off?"

    Your insistence that we should not be allowed to discuss ways to prevent children from being killed is rather offensive. How long must we wait to begin the process of trying to save lives? How many more kids must die before it's okay to talk?
    [Text: Removed by Moderator]




    why don't u say a prayer for the families of the dead children - and think of something other than your political priorities
    Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 07:18 PM. Reason: removed verbiage that expands disagreement from one discussion to another; removed interpersonal remarks/insults

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Well I'm not rolling my eyes. I've been sitting here thinking about it for a day now. And waiting for someone to bring it up, It is part of the reason that these events always get glossed over, somehow. I have even thought that if this guy had been branded a raving homosexual on a spree killing ...it would be the gays and not the guns that would be the main topic of conversation today.

    But expect just about everyone to shout this point down
    no shouting necessary - it's a bullshit what if

    the common theme in these shootings is mental unbalance

    black guy
    white guy
    hispanic
    asian guy

    whatever - crazy is crazy

    a terrorist attack would be very different - a war on america - very different

    not sure why anyone would play this card

    i take that back

    i totally understand why someone would play that card

    and why another would jump in and try to advance it

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    why don't u say a prayer for the families of the dead children - and think of something other than your political priorities
    Because God

    didn't appear

    to do fuck all

    to save the Children

    when He had the chance.

    Prayers won't help them now.

    Or get the guns out of the hands of madmen.
    Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 06:30 PM. Reason: added attribution

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    no shouting necessary - it's a bullshit what if

    the common theme in these shootings is mental unbalance

    black guy
    white guy
    hispanic
    asian guy

    whatever - crazy is crazy

    a terrorist attack would be very different - a war on america - very different

    not sure why anyone would play this card

    i take that back

    i totally understand why someone would play that card

    and why another would jump in and try to advance it
    Nobody's "playing a card", it's the way it plays out. That military serviceman guy who was American-born and Arab and went on a shooting spree, the first words out of every mouth was "terrorism/terrorist links." Turns out the guy just had a huge history of depression and suicidal tendencies before he did it.

    Likewise the words "rap music" and "gangster culture" are never far behind any story that actually does make the news about black youth violence.

  45. #95

    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Not only do the gun lobby want to maintain the status quo, but actively campaign to shut down research into gun control.

    Over the past two decades, the NRA has not only been able to stop gun control laws, but even debate on the subject. The Centers for Disease Control funds research into the causes of death in the United States, including firearms — or at least it used to. In 1996, after various studies funded by the agency found that guns can be dangerous, the gun lobby mobilized to punish the agency. First, Republicans tried to eliminate entirely the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, the bureau responsible for the research. When that failed, Rep. Jay Dickey, a Republican from Arkansas, successfully pushed through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the CDC’s budget (the amount it had spent on gun research in the previous year) and outlawed research on gun control with a provision that reads: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”
    http://www.salon.com/2012/07/25/the_...n_gun_science/

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Because God

    didn't appear

    to do fuck all

    to save the Children

    when He had the chance.

    Prayers won't help them now.

    Or get the guns out of the hands of madmen.
    Indeed. Chance repeatedly telling people to pray for the families is a CareBear thought that doesn't actually help the families or help the families of future victims of exactly this kind of scenario.

    Talking about sensible changes, however, would help.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by EastMed View Post
    Not only do the gun lobby want to maintain the status quo, but actively campaign to shut down research into gun control.



    http://www.salon.com/2012/07/25/the_...n_gun_science/
    If all of the "reasoned evidence" I've seen ever presented from the pro-gun side on why gun restrictions are bad and wouldn't work are representative at all, and I have little reason to think they aren't, I completely understand why they try to stifle all research and discussion on the topic. None of it passes the thinnest combing of logical scrutiny.

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Because God

    didn't appear

    to do fuck all

    to save the Children

    when He had the chance.

    Prayers won't help them now.

    Or get the guns out of the hands of madmen.
    prayers are for the family members - so they can get through this life changing experience - they grieve for their lost children - it's not for those who died but for the living - not sure why u can't understand that

    as for your new mocking style - couple x now

    just because the content and style of your own posts i guess doesn't float ur boat

    is no reason to copy/mock/etc. mine - sorta baiting u know ? just like the majority of your threads

    try to be yourself

    it gets better

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    ^ Well by all means please spend your time saying prayers. I'm sure your prayers will do you a world of good somehow, but they won't really matter a bit to the families of these dead children or the dead children themselves at the end of the day. The prayers are actually meant to make the people praying feel better. That is their psychological raison d'etre.

    Pardon me, but I don't want to feel better. I don't want to sit here while the popes and the preachers and the apologists mumble about how 'these things happen'.....

    So I'm sitting here on the side of the angels looking for some way of not making this make sense for me....but to challenge us all to find out if there is away to make sure that it doesn't keep happening time after time after time......

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    Re: NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    ^ Well by all means please spend your time saying prayers. I'm sure your prayers will do you a world of good somehow, but they won't really matter a bit to the families of these dead children or the dead children themselves at the end of the day. The prayers are actually meant to make the people praying feel better. That is their psychological raison d'etre.

    Pardon me, but I don't want to feel better. I don't want to sit here while the popes and the preachers and the apologists mumble about how 'these things happen'.....

    So I'm sitting here on the side of the angels looking for some way of not making this make sense for me....but to challenge us all to find out if there is away to make sure that it doesn't keep happening time after time after time......
    yeah - suggesting that if the kid who committed these heinous acts were black/muslim, etc. - things would be diff

    is very much indicative of your struggle with this

    and if u really want to make sure this doesn't happen again, u might start by trying to engage in a meaningful dialogue about guns not referring to people who disagree with you as terrorists or less worthy

    then maybe u can sit with angels

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