There will never be a conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US.
America is a culture of guns.
There will never be a conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US.
America is a culture of guns.
It is indeed time for a debate on gun control and, more broadly, on why there is an aggressive culture of violence in the US.
Some sensible voices here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...wtown-shootingMinutes after Obama spoke there was strong response from the most high-profile figure in the country advocating gun control, New York mayor Michael Bloomberg, who called for an end to what he described as this madness.
"President Obama rightly sent his heartfelt condolences to the families in Newtown. But the country needs him to send a bill to Congress to fix this problem. Calling for 'meaningful action' is not enough. We need immediate action," Bloomberg said.
"We have heard all the rhetoric before. What we have not seen is leadership – not from the White House and not from Congress. That must end today."
New York governor Andrew Cuomo took a different view. In a statement paying tribute to the victims of "this senseless and horrific act of violence", Cuomo said: "While we don't have all the facts and our focus must be on the victims, this is yet another senseless and horrific act of violence involving guns. We as a society must unify and once and for all crack down on the guns that have cost the lives of far too many innocent Americans. Let this terrible tragedy finally be the wake-up call for aggressive action and I pledge my full support in that effort."
With something like 300 million guns in this country, and 4 million coming on line every year. it seems disingenuous to single out the NRA. We need an effective mental health system to maybe ameliorate these disasters. I don't see that gun registration solves the problem.
You see it in the threads on this site about Newtown. "Now is not the time to discuss this."
Of course, there never is a time to discuss it, ever. We are forever too close or too far from a tragedy to try to do something about it.
perhaps an aside to the whole issue is the idea that originally the right to bear arms was the right of every citizen to oppose an armed and possibly dangerous government . Practically you are much more likely to be shot by an agent of the government , a policeman , than by a criminal .
Last edited by csb999; December 15th, 2012 at 06:31 AM.
There is quite obviously SOMETHING wrong in the United States when tragedies like this KEEP ON happening, again and again and again. If you were to take the equivalent population of Europe (or for that matter anywhere else) there simply IS NOT the CONTINUAL outbreak of mass spree killings and shootings.
What America needs is a period of 'self-reflection' to ask themselves what exactly is it about their collective psyche/culture that has led a wave of mostly young men to become complete psychopathic nutjobs with the desire to gun down men, women and children on murderous rampages.
To say that having countless thousands of guns and rifles readily legally available and for sale in shop windows and supermarkets and stores across the country has NOTHING to do with it is staggering self-delusion beyond belief.
Additionally there may be the extra problem of a failure of public mental health services and the ready identification and either treatment and/or institutialisation of these terrible individuals.
The first stage in this process in to admit SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE. But when like everything else in America the debate is FORCIBLY POLITICISED and when gun control and better public health become 'what Democrats think' (boo, hiss) then NOTHING will be done. EVEN in the wake of unspeakable tragedies like this.
It tragically is going to take even MORE deaths and even WORSE than this for it to STOP being a fucking POLITICAL argument.
There are many, many people who would say that shouting about the guns and culture of violence that led to the senseless deaths of these children at this time is showing respect.
More respect, in fact, than brushing it all under the rug again like a dirty little embarrassment until the buzz dies down and the story is pushed out of the news cycle...thereby once again guaranteeing that no conversation will take place.
Last edited by rareboy; December 15th, 2012 at 07:10 AM.
The perpetual DANGER of the unspoken THREAT that never happens. The terrifying 'armed intruder' that pervades your mind and that you probably think about on a regular basis. What are the odds? 0.01%? 0.001%?
And to combat this threat, you MUST HAVE A GUN! You MUST have a gun in your hands to shoot a burglar, LEAVING ASIDE the EXTREME unlikelihood you'll ever have one in your life, AND EVEN THEN that you'd....
a) even wake up to hear said unlikely burglar before he left,
b) have your gun readily at hand to fetch in time,
c) get a chance to confront him face to face before he ran at full speed for the door,
d) that *gasp* the burglar himself may not be armed,
e) that *gasp* the burglar may not wish to harm you,
f) that you had the courage and conviction to shoot him.
I'm not excusing or condoning burglars or intruders, I'm highlighting the ridiculously slim CHANCE and the psychology of LIVING IN FEAR.
HenryReardon, if I used your logic, I'd never drive a car. My mind would be filled with car-crash victims and the danger of drunk-drivers, of cars pulling out in front of me, of all the ways there is a GREATER likelihood of me being injured or killed in an accident than of being robbed at home while I was there.
*I* don't have a gun, and *I* don't feel frightened of sinister bogey-men of my imagination.
I only wish you could feel the same.
That just about the most ridiculous post ever writen in these forums.
And for the record, I don't own an gun and never have. However, should I feel the need, I should have the right to acquire one without the government ever knowing about it.
And with the breakdown of society that is inevitable under our Marxist/socialist president, that day may be sooner rather than later.
Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 07:26 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster
palbert posted that there are 300 million guns in the US. To ban all guns would still leave 300 million in the US. What do you do then? Go around collecting guns from all the citizens? Impossible.
What needs to be done is protect the children in school. I remember quite a lot of schools got those metal detectors that are used in court houses. Put one at each school. The CT schools had all the doors locked except the front one.
Another thing is this guy was the son of a teacher. His brother said he had mental issues before. His family needed to be sure he was getting help for it.
Everyone who has a family member with mental issues needs to get them help.
There was a gun "show" last weekend. Apparently they cannot hold them here in Corpus Christi, so they go to an adjacent county.
Any gun control that needs to be done is ban all assault weapons, sorry Kuli, along with clips that can hold many bullets. I am not pro gun but I will not own one for myself.
BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.
America has a habit -- fed by the 24 hour media cycle and our history -- off going into an hysterical gnashing of teeth when something like this happens; and once sufficiently lamented and lack of responsibility is expatiated, forgetting about it. Columbine taught us nothing. With measured thought now Newtown will.
I realize that gun control is and should be on the table but the bigger issue IMO is the lack of mental health care in this country.
The gun crowd has at least one point that I agree with...it isn't the gun...it is the person using it...and mental illness is the deciding factor in most cases I can think of at the moment where someone picks up a gun and kills so many people at once. As a country we have a horrible infrastructure to deal with mental health issues and so many people have no access to mental health services that do exist.
Reagan..as Governor of California...shut down our mental facilities. His claim... "someone would take care of them".
Some mental issues are beyond helping apart from keeping these people sedated or immobilised for some of them there is really little that can be done from a psychological/medical perspective. Thats why we have institutions for the criminally insane but you cant send them there BEFORE they commit the crime
- - - Updated - - -
What is a kindargaten teacher doing with 3 guns
^ So what you are saying is what, exactly?
Make it more difficult or impossible for the mentally ill to purchase guns?
Or incarcerate all the mentally ill because they might commit a crime?
Or charge all the people who 'should have known' with accessory to the crime?
Just what are you saying here when on the other hand you are saying that anyone should be allowed to buy as many weapons as possible?
Good Question. She must have known her son had mental issues. WTF is she doing with guns in the house?What is a kindargaten teacher doing with 3 guns
However, we need a strong and easily accessible mental health system. Mental health care in the United States is entirely backwards, because it is RARELY available to the people who are most likely to need it. Are there any government-run or subsidized, mental health facilities in the United States at all anymore? Ever since the Ronald Reagan budget entirely crashed the system in I think 1982, it has been very difficult for people to find mental health care. Many health insurance policies do not (I THINK) cover mental health care. I'm NOT sure if Medicare or Medicaid does??? I've known people for many years (including at least one person on this site currently in December alone) who has been daunted by the byzantine efforts one has to go through in the U. S. if they need health care but don't have tons of money available. I knew two guys who worked at a mental institution in Dixon, Illinois which was in fact shut down (NOW it's a prison) in the early 1980's and I'm haunted by their tale about patients who they had bonded with, coming up to them crying and scared because they were being kicked out, with no place to go, bring given only $50 and a bus ticket to Chicago. Even worse, the doors were shut in the middle of winter (either THAT place, or others, I'm not sure). There is nothing wrong with needing and seeking mental health care.
That was a death sentence to some of these patients.
It seems that these mass shootings/murders started in the Eighties as well. Is there a connection here? I can't see any connection with any reality to make 2012 such a horrific year for this type of thing, though, compared to 2006 or 1997.
But, ever since trashing the mental health system, the Republicans irretrievably lost me for life, with no chance of forgiveness...ever. THE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM WAS AN INTEGRAL PART OF MY OWN DEVELOPMENT, thankfully it existed and was easily available when I was an adolescent, and I'm sure that I would no longer be ALL OF THESE - alive, not insane, and not incarcerated if it had been 1994 instead and I didn't have the access when coming from a family of modest means.
Where and how do most people get mental healthcare? I assume that most people, who need it, simply go wanting.
Gun regulation could indeed include registration of weapons, and I don't see how that would interfere with the Second Amendment. I don't even see how limitations on the types of weapons (sort of like the Brady Bill...does that still exist, or did it have a sunset in it?) would violate the Second Amendment, but that Amendment is there for reasons additional to self-defense. Limiting the type of weapon makes it much easier for weapons to be seized if this Government were to go in that direction...and yesterday's shooter surely would have still been able to obtain the guns he used. He probably lives within a couple miles of a secret arsenal which can supply firearms illegally. It's probably about 150 years too late to pass ANY kind of laws which surely keeps illegal guns away from criminals, because there are simply too many guns available, secretly, to anybody who really wants one.
The day that semi-automatic weapons are outlawed, only criminals will have semi-automatic weapons.
But a 22-caliber rifle isn't going to do much good for self-defense (as it takes too long to aim it properly, and the bullet may not even stop an intruder), nor will it be an effective weapon against government goons attired in bulletproof clothes if there was suddenly a roundup and search on all powerful weapons. Some gun-control people say that "even powerful weapons aren't going to be effective against the government tanks and troops" but, in the end, to round the weapons up, the government gestapo needs to get out of their tanks and try to seize the weapons - let alone that the Military is nowhere near large enough to be in more than a very small fraction of all places at any given time. It's not like all the guns could be sought (and, as much as possible, seized) on Tuesday the 10th or something.
The gun issue fully has the traits of MANY issues in the 21st Century - where there are no **GOOD** answers or alternatives!
Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 07:24 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster
BOSS: I'm sorry, but I'll have to lay you and Jack off. SUE: Can you just jack off? I feel like shit today.
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony
THE WIZARD OF OZ: "Transported to a surreal landscape, a girl kills the first person she meets, then joins three strangers to kill again."
DONALD TRUMP: The gift that keeps on giving.
And I don't recall 911 discussion day of even remotely like this
Which is good
The noisiest here have no outrage for the dead
They show no respect for the dead
It's a political moment
And it's poorly done
At least the president did the right thing
And his press lackey carney the same
Perhaps this is one instance where the lovers should have followed suit
Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)
To most of the rest of the world, it is so bizarre that Americans live in perpetual fear of each other and their government.
This fear is so tangible and visceral that it has become a seething undercurrent to virtually every aspect of society and culture. The country was founded in blood, it expanded westward through blood, it almost ripped itself apart by bloodshed, it invented an organized crime killing spree with Prohibition and has glorified the making and firing of weapons designed to cut another person in half when we all know it only takes half the firepower to mow down a bunch of schoolkids.
Already, the whole conversation in the US seems to be shifting to 'It is the fault of the mental health system' and away from...how can we make it more difficult for the mentally ill to acquire these types of weapons.
And this is why there will never be a real conversation about responsible gun ownership in the US. The universal fear of their neighbours, the strangers down the street, the blacks, or even some kind of renegade military force that the nation has spent close to a century bankrupting themselves to outfit with even deadlier force.....
Obam has said today that something must be done. That a conversation has to be had on the topic.
Let's see how many days it takes....particularly as a harried nation tries to forget all of this while they binge over the Christmas holidays. I can guarantee you that by January 4th, 2013....all of this horror will have been mostly forgotten by so many of the people who are accusing everyone else of just not being 'sensitive' enough today.
^ thanks for "friendly" advice
Mr "I talk for the rest of the world"
I actually think that the death of little kids has the public
Much like with gay marriage
Re thinking the real issue
But thanks for your "concern"
Trust me. Once the fiscal cliff bullshit starts hitting the 24 hour news cycle...the Newtown massacre will just be a footnote to 21012 for the media.
The media fixation on the Obama appointments will push the town's grief and everyone's horror out of the way come January.
Someone will hold hearings, somewhere and people will testify and deliver more platitudes sometime in 2013 and then all will be forgotten except for annual memorials on the news for the first few years marking the anniversary.
The NRA and the manufacturers of these guns who want to get one in everyone's Christmas stockings this year rely on the long term amnesia of the American public. So they will lie low for awhile after shovelling out the usual platitudes themselves and then maybe even cash in on the fear that gun ownership might be more restricted as everyone loads up on as many as they can.
Last edited by rareboy; December 15th, 2012 at 11:18 AM.
Sounds like, to me, that the whole family is nuts.
Mother, no info on why she was at the school. Not registered as a teacher, my be substitute.
Mother, a survivalist. That's why she got all the guns,. Expecting the fiscal cliff bringing problems.
Oh yeah, it was on MSNBC right now.
BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.
That is not, of course, to say that I don't believe that it's in some part cultural and in some part psychological/related to mental health. It most certainly is. But I think an elephant in the room is the fact that spree shooters ARE predominantly white males and I think there's cultural reasons for that.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You cannot seem to imagine an alternative to a threat that is not also violence. Therein lies the problem.
Arguing that we cannot discuss a problem because the problem is at hand is itself extremely disrespectful to everyone, not just the people who died and their families. When airplanes were used to kill people on 9/11, we acted immediately to ban all airplane use, until we could figure out a way to make it safer. We didn't say "Let's not talk about preventing people from flying, since that would be disrespectful to the people who died." It is never disrespectful to try to save the lives of innocent people.
We can shut down all air traffic and impose amazingly inconvenient restrictions on people who only want to travel. And yet, somehow, we are not permitted as a nation even to discuss making gun use safer, because that might make gun use slightly less convenient.
Why is that?
You get it.
Your insistence that we should not be allowed to discuss ways to prevent children from being killed is rather offensive. How long must we wait to begin the process of trying to save lives? How many more kids must die before it's okay to talk?
Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 07:22 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster
But expect just about everyone to shout this point down
Last edited by rareboy; December 15th, 2012 at 12:06 PM.
why don't u say a prayer for the families of the dead children - and think of something other than your political priorities
Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 07:18 PM. Reason: removed verbiage that expands disagreement from one discussion to another; removed interpersonal remarks/insults
the common theme in these shootings is mental unbalance
whatever - crazy is crazy
a terrorist attack would be very different - a war on america - very different
not sure why anyone would play this card
i take that back
i totally understand why someone would play that card
and why another would jump in and try to advance it
Last edited by opinterph; December 15th, 2012 at 06:30 PM. Reason: added attribution
Likewise the words "rap music" and "gangster culture" are never far behind any story that actually does make the news about black youth violence.
Not only do the gun lobby want to maintain the status quo, but actively campaign to shut down research into gun control.
http://www.salon.com/2012/07/25/the_...n_gun_science/Over the past two decades, the NRA has not only been able to stop gun control laws, but even debate on the subject. The Centers for Disease Control funds research into the causes of death in the United States, including firearms — or at least it used to. In 1996, after various studies funded by the agency found that guns can be dangerous, the gun lobby mobilized to punish the agency. First, Republicans tried to eliminate entirely the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, the bureau responsible for the research. When that failed, Rep. Jay Dickey, a Republican from Arkansas, successfully pushed through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the CDC’s budget (the amount it had spent on gun research in the previous year) and outlawed research on gun control with a provision that reads: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”
as for your new mocking style - couple x now
just because the content and style of your own posts i guess doesn't float ur boat
is no reason to copy/mock/etc. mine - sorta baiting u know ? just like the majority of your threads
try to be yourself
it gets better
^ Well by all means please spend your time saying prayers. I'm sure your prayers will do you a world of good somehow, but they won't really matter a bit to the families of these dead children or the dead children themselves at the end of the day. The prayers are actually meant to make the people praying feel better. That is their psychological raison d'etre.
Pardon me, but I don't want to feel better. I don't want to sit here while the popes and the preachers and the apologists mumble about how 'these things happen'.....
So I'm sitting here on the side of the angels looking for some way of not making this make sense for me....but to challenge us all to find out if there is away to make sure that it doesn't keep happening time after time after time......
is very much indicative of your struggle with this
and if u really want to make sure this doesn't happen again, u might start by trying to engage in a meaningful dialogue about guns not referring to people who disagree with you as terrorists or less worthy
then maybe u can sit with angels
By the way this is not the True Believers forum-- coming into a topic and telling people NOT to discuss it because "They should be praying" is a ridiculous attempt to derail discussion. We got it. Yo uthink people should do nothing but pray (and certainly not think about gun laws.) You can go now.
More than any other organization, the NRA has been the most instrumental in making sure that unrestricted gun use in America is actually more important than motherhood.
To those on either side of the argument, the NRA is the ultimate enabler of the deadly force culture in America today.
I notice that so far in this thread, you, along with many other apologists out there, appear to have no real suggestions...just admonishments for anyone else who is suggesting that solutions need to be found.
So tell us. What do you think is the answer?
Last edited by rareboy; December 15th, 2012 at 01:24 PM.
I think the problem is multi-faceted. If I were to take an approach I would do the following:
Acknowledge guns are not going away and even acknowledge that murder rates are declining while understanding that mass murder incidents are on the rise.
Acknowledge that countries exist with 100% gun ownership but somehow their culture is different and does not provide fertile grounds for mass murder.
Acknowledge that gun ownership is at its lowest percentage ever per capita.
Acknowledge that something else is awry in a society that has always had guns all of a sudden developing this mass murder problem.
So then for action:
Every loop hole that allows guns to be purchased with no background check should be eliminated.
The no buy list should be mandatory across all fifty states.
Any person prescribed SSRI (Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac) should be required to be drug free for one year and cleared by a psychiatrist prior to being removed from the no buy list. (I only use one year for mood altering drugs because that is what the military uses)
The justice department should establish a entity in the DEA that regularly does aggressive ID fraud verification against gun sellers. In other words verify that the gun sellers are conducting due diligence in verifying the identity.
Finally, aggressively implement the ACA to ensure effective mental health care is available for ALL citizens.
Edit: Just thought of... aggressively pursue not allowing teens to play first person shooter games for hours on end thereby training a killing attitude. Restrict such things to 18+
At the same time, an education program beginning in first grade, as I've set out before.
"Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "
--Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000
*the number is now forty