NRA is a Domestic Terrorist Group

[chrisrobin]

Does this make the victims of Newtown any less dead?

[JockBoy87]

Does this make the victims of Newtown any less dead?

My favorite unaccompanied words in an essay: this, it, he, she, they, stuff, and things.

[opinterph]

I did not find this article in my school library

Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

[FuryOfFirestorm]

[chrisrobin]

My favorite unaccompanied words in an essay: this, it, he, she, they, stuff, and things.

a report that says Europe is on a par with the US in terms of mass shootings.

or posting such information...

[Jack Springer]

If it is found out that the shooter was high on pot or any other drug. Do we ban all "recreational drugs" forever?

[-Callum-]

If it is found out that the shooter was high on pot or any other drug. Do we ban all "recreational drugs" forever?

No. What if the killer is a homosexual? Do we criminalize homosexuality?

Geez, such logic is mind-boggling.

[JayHawk]

You won't like the source, but here's a report that says Europe is on a par with the US in terms of mass shootings.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Lot...o_code=111C9-1

Well how about we forget the source and realize when you look at the information the good Dr. cherry picks a few large incidents in American history and compares them with isolated large incidents in Europe. The link below looks at the worlds mass shooting for the last fifty years. not only does the US vastly lead that list but the repeat occurrences make it clear culturally something has changed over the last twenty years that has exacerbated the problem.

That said with the number of weapons in America if we were to install a rigid policy or altogether ban personal firearms then no doubt someone would acquire a weapon and shoot a bunch of people. So then without evidence to the contrary many folks will jump on the it has failed bandwagon.

How do you defend the fact that the US has ten thousand gun deaths? Compared to regulated nations. Or hell even compared to Israel or Switzerland where gun ownership is compulsory. the difference in both of those societies is the existence of state paid for health care and adequate mental health services.

So republicans have to come off of something. Their financial policies killed our wealth and now their social policies are killing us outright.

[Jack Springer]

No. What if the killer is a homosexual? Do we criminalize homosexuality?

Geez, such logic is mind-boggling.

If it were found that homosexuality was the cause of mass murders -- you'd have to criminalize homosexuality.

I'm guessing that violent video games, TV shows, movies, and the overall breakdown of the moral structure of the family and society have much more to do with the mass murders than anything else.

[JockBoy87]

If it were found that homosexuality was the cause of mass murders -- you'd have to criminalize homosexuality.

Sounds funny, but Scott Lively actually believes it.

[JayHawk]

If it were found that homosexuality was the cause of mass murders -- you'd have to criminalize homosexuality.

I'm guess that violent video games, TV shows, movies, and the overall breakdown of the moral structure of the family and society have much more to do with the mass murders than anything else.

Actually in studies of the shooters video games and violent content play little to no role.

[Jack Springer]

^^


A little too convenient of an article to exempt a potential cause. In the end it's the person not the tool that decides what happens.

The military uses video games to hone the skills of soldiers.

[Telstra]

This is an interesting read from a woman that has a son with possibly the same disability as Adam Lanza.


http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/

Could be made into a movie.
Very scary .... its like "Omen" without the supernatural stuff

[-Callum-]

Murders in Detroit for 2010 - 310 - Link
Murders in Windsor for 2010 - Zero - Link

Same violent video games, same violent movies. Two cities less than a mile apart. Your point is invalid, Jack.

[JayHawk]

^^


A little too convenient of an article to exempt a potential cause. In the end it's the person not the tool that decides what happens.

The military uses video games to hone the skills of soldiers.

Actually there are hundreds of studies. you will need access to a database like lexus or EBSCO Host to find the psychology related and scientific ones. The only studies pointing to a link between violent video and actual shooting sprees is highly subjective and paid for by companies like Bushman or Colt. Sound familiar? Remember when the tobacco companies bought their own scientist?

[loki81]

Murders in Detroit for 2010 - 310 - Link
Murders in Windsor for 2010 - Zero - Link

Same violent video games, same violent movies. Two cities less than a mile apart. Your point is invalid, Jack.

I bet gun laws are the only difference you can find between those two cities

[White Eagle]

You beat me to it. I found this today too.

[HenryReardon]

Murders in Detroit for 2010 - 310 - Link
Murders in Windsor for 2010 - Zero - Link

Same violent video games, same violent movies. Two cities less than a mile apart. Your point is invalid, Jack.

What a comparison. Windsor, metro population 300,000 more or less; Detroit, metro population 4 million plus.

[White Eagle]

Could be made into a movie.
Very scary .... its like "Omen" without the supernatural stuff

Didn't think of that. That would be a good movie.

[-Callum-]

What a comparison. Windsor, metro population 300,000 more or less; Detroit, metro population 4 million plus.

Now how about breaking that down to per capita of 10000? Wait - there's no point, because there wasn't a single murder.

[FuryOfFirestorm]

It's funny that a lot of NRA and 2nd Amendment supporters are arguing that keeping guns in the hands of civilians would prevent or stop these events, but how many of these mass shootings were actually prevented or stopped by armed civilians?

[FuryOfFirestorm]

Now that I think about it, this latest tragedy could have been avoided if civilians weren't armed.

His mother owned those guns, giving him easy access to weapons.

If she hadn't insisted on having a personal arsenal, it would have been a lot harder for him to obtain that many guns without raising red flags.

[FuryOfFirestorm]

If it were found that homosexuality was the cause of mass murders -- you'd have to criminalize homosexuality.

I'm guessing that violent video games, TV shows, movies, and the overall breakdown of the moral structure of the family and society have much more to do with the mass murders than anything else.

A majority of these mass shootings were done by Caucasian males, so according to your logic, we need to round up all Caucasian males and put them in jail.

Oh look - I'm a Hispanic/Native American male, so i'm completely exempt. Have fun in jail, Jack!

[T-Rexx]

Now that I think about it, this latest tragedy could have been avoided if civilians weren't armed.

His mother owned those guns, giving him easy access to weapons.

If she hadn't insisted on having a personal arsenal, it would have been a lot harder for him to obtain that many guns without raising red flags.

Yes, exactly.

If it wasn't for this crazy gun culture in America, this kind of stuff wouldn't happen.

Purchasing a gun for "personal protection" makes it 3x more likely that someone in your home will die of a homicide. Three times! As Mrs. Lanza discovered.



http://guncite.com/gun-control-kellermann-3times.html

[Jack Springer]

Murders in Detroit for 2010 - 310 - Link
Murders in Windsor for 2010 - Zero - Link

Same violent video games, same violent movies. Two cities less than a mile apart. Your point is invalid, Jack.

What makes the difference in murders between the two?

There has to be more to the story.

[Stardreamer]

There is an argument that counters this, namely that in most cases of mass gun killings the catylist that brings the event to an end is the arrival of armed opposition. The observation/theory is that the killing in this latest killing spree stopped killing and turned his gun on himself when he heard the sirens indicating armed police officers had arrived. There was a recent shooter in a mall that reportedly stopped his shooting and turned his gun on himself when he noticed that a man had drawn his (licensed) concealed carry handgun and was looking for a clear shot at him. How accurate this theory is, is of course, debatable but it has a certain soundness to me you rarely hear that spree killers such as this actually shooting it out with the police, they almost always flee or kill themselves instead.

[T-Rexx]

So republicans have to come off of something. Their financial policies killed our wealth and now their social policies are killing us outright.

This bears repeating.

[Jack Springer]

A majority of these mass shootings were done by Caucasian males, so according to your logic, we need to round up all Caucasian males and put them in jail.

Oh look - I'm a Hispanic/Native American male, so i'm completely exempt. Have fun in jail, Jack!

I'm white? I had better tell my parents.

[Jack Springer]

This bears repeating.

How many millions of babies have liberals killed by abortion?

[FuryOfFirestorm]

There is an argument that counters this, namely that in most cases of mass gun killings the catylist that brings the event to an end is the arrival of armed opposition. The observation/theory is that the killing in this latest killing spree stopped killing and turned his gun on himself when he heard the sirens indicating armed police officers had arrived. There was a recent shooter in a mall that reportedly stopped his shooting and turned his gun on himself when he noticed that a man had drawn his (licensed) concealed carry handgun and was looking for a clear shot at him. How accurate this theory is, is of course, debatable but it has a certain soundness to me you rarely hear that spree killers such as this actually shooting it out with the police, they almost always flee or kill themselves instead.

The first case involves the police (who carry guns as part of their job), not armed civilians.

The second case has not been given solid confirmation as of yet.

Spree killings have usually ended in 3 ways:

1. The shooter gives up and turns himself over to the Police/SWAT

2. The shooter turns the gun on himself

3. The shooter gets taken down by a police sniper.

I've yet to see a mass shooter get taken down by an armed civilian.

- - - Updated - - -

How many millions of babies have liberals killed by abortion?

None. Now fetuses, on the other hand....

[T-Rexx]

How many millions of babies have liberals killed by abortion?

As you well know, Jack, the reason for the decline in crime in the USA is thought to be the legalization of abortion.

Abortion is a horrible "solution" to a social problem we cannot figure out any better way to deal with. But, how many millions of lives have ironically been saved because of abortion?

[HenryReardon]

:

I've yet to see a mass shooter get taken down by an armed civilian.


....

That's probably because many of the mass shooting venues are 'gun free zones'.
That college in Virginia comes to mind, as do schools.

[Stardreamer]

The first case involves the police (who carry guns as part of their job), not armed civilians.

The second case has not been given solid confirmation as of yet.

Spree killings have usually ended in 3 ways:

1. The shooter gives up and turns himself over to the Police/SWAT

2. The shooter turns the gun on himself

3. The shooter gets taken down by a police sniper.

I've yet to see a mass shooter get taken down by an armed civilian.

Which does not rule out that it could happen. However the rest of your observation does not invalidate the argument, it complements it if anything.

[Jack Springer]

As you well know, Jack, the reason for the decline in crime in the USA is thought to be the legalization of abortion.

Abortion is a horrible "solution" to a social problem we cannot figure out any better way to deal with. But, how many millions of lives have ironically been saved because of abortion?

Saved lives by abortion. What are you talking about?

- - - Updated - - -

None. Now fetuses, on the other hand....

So this isn't a serious discussion.

[FuryOfFirestorm]

Saved lives by abortion. What are you talking about?

- - - Updated - - -



So this isn't a serious discussion.

Not since you joined it, no.

This is a baby: [insert photo of baby here. JUB's policy doesn't allow images of children]

This is not a baby:

I hope that cleared things up.

[JayHawk]

Jack let me talk slowly... as has been presented on these forums time and time again in threads to which you were a part of... abortion has reduced the number of youth rasied in shitty conditions for lack of resources by the underage and often unprepared mother. That reduction in 'layabouts' are no longer having to create a life of crime after a shitty childhood because they never were born.

[JayHawk]

I'm white? I had better tell my parents.

Your not a white guy?

Weird. You sound just like a white guy in all your positions.

[zoltanspawn]

What makes the difference in murders between the two?

There has to be more to the story.

Jack is asking a good question, here.

[frankfrank]

Really if you want to pinpoint any sort of cause for the rise in shootings, I would blame the deinstitutionalization of America or as I like to call it, "minimum security prison". In the 80s when all the mental hospitals started to close and all the "mentally hilarious" were unleashed on the masses, no doubt some of the reproduced and well, said offspring have come of age.

ITA...If we don't address the need for mental health care it won't matter how strict the gun laws are...the people who are bent on doing these things will find the guns...or worse. It may be harder for them to find the guns with stricter regulations but they will be available on the black market. Mental illness is the deciding factor IMO...more than guns. This phenomenon is not going away so a discussion on the state of access to mental health care in this country is essential.

So entirely in agreement from here...mental health care was a prominent and important factor early in MY lifetime, and I am eternally grateful that a good system was in place at the time. If I had been born later with the same developmental problems - late enough that it was instead 1990 when I really needed mental health care instead of a generation earlier - I cannot see any scenario under which I would be alive, sane, and NOT in prison...by now.

A guy right here in JUB has posted about the horrendous hurdles to finding any kind of mental health care, and it just shouldn't be that way. I don't know about the system there, but my hunch is that mental health care is more available even in places like Haiti and Yemen, to most of the population, than in the United States.

I'm hearing SOME people talk about a good mental health system for the first time in more than a generation. Unfortunately, I don't expect to hear people talking about it three weeks from now (or later) - it will be completely forgotten again. As advanced as the United States supposedly is, the mental health care system is primitive and only available to the incredibly, extremely privileged.

[JockBoy87]

Well to be fair probably as many as conservatives, only, the liberals aren't as ashamed if it.

[rareboy]

How many millions of babies have liberals killed by abortion?

What is the bullshit with liberals killing babies?

You don't think that there aren't a whole lot of nice Republican women out there who haven't had abortions too?

Really?

Well news flash there Jacko, there are.

And come on people.

We've had fucking prairie dogs used as the reason for assault weapons in this thread and now we've invoked Springer's Law where every big topic thread has to somehow get derailed with a sterile and stupid discussion over abortion?????

Time for the thread to be closed.

[chance1]

As you well know, Jack, the reason for the decline in crime in the USA is thought to be the legalization of abortion.

Abortion is a horrible "solution" to a social problem we cannot figure out any better way to deal with. But, how many millions of lives have ironically been saved because of abortion?

Completely in sync with your comment about arming the 6-7 year olds at Sandy Hook

Two gems

Sorta Westboro esque

[chance1]

What is the bullshit with liberals killing babies?

You don't think that there aren't a whole lot of nice Republican women out there who haven't had abortions too?

Really?

Well news flash there Jacko, there are.

And come on people.

We've had fucking prairie dogs used as the reason for assault weapons in this thread and now we've invoked Springer's Law where every big topic thread has to somehow get derailed with a sterile and stupid discussion over abortion?????

Time for the thread to be closed.

It was a death march long before this

Try 5 pages ago with mind numbing bank forth

With one lone prairie dog holding off the 85

Selective outrage it appears

[White Eagle]

Just reported a shooting in San Antonio, shooter just shooting across a parking lot and into a theater, Police had to shoot him to stop it.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yes the shooter is in the hospital recovering.
HE hit a bystander

Well, they reported on evening news the guy didn't do anything and has disappeared.

[chance1]

Over Quentin Tarantino's objections

http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.aspx?news=780749

[Jack Springer]

What is the bullshit with liberals killing babies?

You don't think that there aren't a whole lot of nice Republican women out there who haven't had abortions too?

Really?

Well news flash there Jacko, there are.

And come on people.

We've had fucking prairie dogs used as the reason for assault weapons in this thread and now we've invoked Springer's Law where every big topic thread has to somehow get derailed with a sterile and stupid discussion over abortion?????

Time for the thread to be closed.

Just because you're uncomfortable with one of the reasons for the country's moral collapse is not reason to shut down the thread. The thread probably should have been shut down because if was a baiting thread.

If abortion along with demeaning and violent video games, TV shows, music, movies that desensitize people to murder, torture, blood, and respect for human life were made illegal I would expect we would have less violence.

Let's talk further about mental illness as the reason for the murders. Connecticut has very strict gun laws -- why didn't they stop the violence.

My guess is that after getting a ban on assault weapons and that not working -- the liberals will want more, and more, and more.

[loki81]

this is a depressing Tuesday morning read...

What Lanza shows us is the limits of the obvious policy responses. He had all the mental health resources he needed--and he did it anyway. The law stopped him from buying a gun--and he did it anyway. The school had an intercom system aimed at stopping unauthorized entry--and he did it anyway. Any practical, easy-to-implement solution to school shootings that you could propose, along with several that were not at all easy to implement, was already in place. Somehow, Lanza blew through them all.

These "reasonable controls" would not, in fact, have done much to stop the horror at Newtown; Lanza's problem was not that he didn't know the four rules of gun safety, or that his aim was bad. And Lanza didn't buy the guns, so a background check would not have stopped him... Reducing the body counts a bit is obviously a very worthy project; I am okay with outlawing magazines that contain more than ten bullets. But this will in no way prevent people from going on murderous rampages. We are not talking about an end to spree killing, only about a (perhaps) very slight reduction in its deadliness.

You can't ban them because the Supreme Court has now ruled, twice, that you can't. You also can't ban them because there are hundreds of millions of guns in circulation in the United States--no one knows exactly how many, but we are either approaching, or well past, one gun per adult citizens. Other countries that banned guns started with a less absolutist attitude towards civil liberties, and also, a lot fewer guns.

We don't know where any of those guns are. So how would we get them? House to house searches? I keep getting these mailers from the ACLU saying that whatever administration is currently in power is "gutting" the fourth amendment, but the old girl still has a little life in her--enough to preclude any such measures. At best, you would take guns away from the people least likely to use them: the folks law abiding enough to trundle down to the police station and dutifully surrender their weapons.

And that's assuming that you can get to the point of banning guns. You can't. Somewhere between 40-60% of American adults own a gun; they will not vote for your gun ban. Others who do not own guns are nonetheless opposed to banning them.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-massacre.html

cliffs: there really is no solution, and no way to prevent tragedies like this. the best we can do is pass laws to make ourselves feel better and maybe reduce the future body counts.

[Rolyo85]

How many millions of babies have liberals killed by abortion?

None. Abortion doesn't kill babies.

[rareboy]

Just because you're uncomfortable with one of the reasons for the country's moral collapse is not reason to shut down the thread. The thread probably should have been shut down because if was a baiting thread.

If abortion along with demeaning and violent video games, TV shows, music, movies that desensitize people to murder, torture, blood, and respect for human life were made illegal I would expect we would have less violence.

Let's talk further about mental illness as the reason for the murders. Connecticut has very strict gun laws -- why didn't they stop the violence.

My guess is that after getting a ban on assault weapons and that not working -- the liberals will want more, and more, and more.

Back in the 19th century, there were no violent TV programs, video games, music, movies or readily available abortions.

19th century America was a violent society....including the outrages practised on slaves and children.

So don't shovel me that shit.

There is no 'moral' collapse of society.

The next thing is that you will be calling for homosexuality to be criminalized...God knows that is what most of your fellow travellers believe to be one of the main reasons for the downfall of moralism in America.

[T-Rexx]

Completely in sync with your comment about arming the 6-7 year olds at Sandy Hook

Two gems

Sorta Westboro esque

If you're trying to agree with me regarding your party's stupidity concerning the gun issue, then thank you.