Oregon Shooting - Not again!

[chance1]

Anyone know how the victims are doing ?

Never mind

Flail away

[palemale]

Do you seriously believe that gun control laws will keep guns out of the hands of criminals? Get serious.

The majority of gun crimes in New York City are committed with guns purchased legally in states with weak gun laws. So yes, gun control laws would keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Obviously not all, but it would seriously reduce the amount of gun violence.

[HenryReardon]

My point was quite germane to this thread. You can't reject the "prohibition is pointless because the vice is pervasive" argument with respect to one debate and embrace it with another.

Well, you can, but you can't maintain any sort of intellectual consistency.

I haven't rejected the "prohibition is pointless" argument. The US experimented with prohibition from 1920-1933, and should have learned a lesson from it.

[HenryReardon]

. Obviously not all, but it would seriously reduce the amount of gun violence.

Unfortunately for your position, so does the issuance of concealed carry permits. There are plenty of statistics detailing a drop in gun violence after concealed carry laws take effect. Look it up.

[JockBoy87]

Anyone know how the victims are doing ?

Never mind

Flail away

Last I heard the surviving victim was the 15 year old girl in surgery for chest wounds, and she's in serious condition still.

The mall is going to reopen today. I feel bad for the businesses too that are taking this at the worst possible time of year.

There should be more updates on the mall's Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/ClackamasTownCenter

[chance1]

Last I heard the surviving victim was the 15 year old girl in surgery for chest wounds, and she's in serious condition still.

The mall is going to reopen today. I feel bad for the businesses too that are taking this at the worst possible time of year.

There should be more updates on the mall's Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/ClackamasTownCenter

Thanks JB - girls with chest wounds is a phrase we would all like to see never

I respect the rights of law abiding citizens to carry

I wish they wouldn't

Mistakes in judgement with a gun can be devastating or fatal

But lets not forget who committed the crimes

I think reasonable people can and have debated this issue

With common sense access and timing constraints

And thorough background checks

With a common goal of preventing misery and death

[Jack Springer]

Um, that would be because it's way harder to kill a theater full of people with recreational drugs than with a semi-automatic... To equate guns with drugs... makes a sense that is not.

Makes a lot of sense. A killer could contaminate the popcorn or soda with "recreational drugs". Recently in Colorado two people did just that with a class -- they put pot in brownies without the knowledge of fellow classmates including the teacher. Many were deathly ill.

What it comes down to is the person who does the killing is the problem ... not the method of killing.

Information on the young girl who was wounded.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamasc...ooting_43.html

[HenryReardon]

What it comes down to is the person who does the killing is the problem ... not the method of killing.


Just so. Guns don't kill people—people kill people.

[Jack Springer]

It happens in China too.

A man slashed 22 children and 1 adult in a school. It wasn't mentioned in the article how badly the children were harmed.

What do we do now -- ban knives?

http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-chi...,5592318.story


God bless the souls of the 20 children and the 6 adults who were murdered today. Please pray for their families.

[Kulindahr]

Unfortunately for your position, so does the issuance of concealed carry permits. There are plenty of statistics detailing a drop in gun violence after concealed carry laws take effect. Look it up.

Don't forget that the drop applies to all crimes against persons -- while OTOH crimes against property with no people present has actually been shown to rise.

[Kulindahr]

I respect the rights of law abiding citizens to carry

I wish they wouldn't

Mistakes in judgement with a gun can be devastating or fatal

Statistically, police make mistakes in judgment more often than the armed citizen in most situations. The difference is crisis situations like this when the armed good guy gets there after the beginning: then cops have the edge.

That's a way of saying that unless you've had the training for crisis situations, and you're armed, wait for the cops and offer your help instead of playing hero.

[chance1]

Statistically, police make mistakes in judgment more often than the armed citizen in most situations. The difference is crisis situations like this when the armed good guy gets there after the beginning: then cops have the edge.

That's a way of saying that unless you've had the training for crisis situations, and you're armed, wait for the cops and offer your help instead of playing hero.

i'm fine with better training for cops

their job (protecting citizens) requires it

the rest is silly

and you kuli - should take a break on your pro gun stance which frankly is an obsession

the timing is just not right

[Telstra]

If we dig up the shooting threads,
how many shootings are there ?

[Kulindahr]

If we dig up the shooting threads,
how many shootings are there ?

I dunno.

I do know that the blabberheads on the tube have given us two more hours of coverage about the shooting today and mostly just asked each other questions that led to saying the same things as before. Personally, I don't think that's a favor to the survivors or the victims' loved ones: we know what happened, so unless there's anything new, they should shut their traps and let people grieve.

[SteveJr]

I think its time to think about the gun licence now and govt should take strict action for the security of the school

[Russian Bottom Slut]

The majority of gun crimes in New York City are committed with guns purchased legally in states with weak gun laws. So yes, gun control laws would keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Obviously not all, but it would seriously reduce the amount of gun violence.

In Russia there are lots of issues of murder by traumatic guns (mostly in nightclubs, etc). The traumatic guns were legalised in Russia, and some people use it for attack. not for self-defence.

I believe that this self-defence thing is total bullsh***. A peaceful person should be protected by the police. Why no one hear about such crime in Scandinavia (except of one Nazi-maniac in Norwegia)? Because Scandianvian (and European in general) society is less machistic and militaristic than the USA and modern Russia.

[Kulindahr]

In Russia there are lots of issues of murder by traumatic guns (mostly in nightclubs, etc). The traumatic guns were legalised in Russia, and some people use it for attack. not for self-defence.

I believe that this self-defence thing is total bullsh***. A peaceful person should be protected by the police. Why no one hear about such crime in Scandinavia (except of one Nazi-maniac in Norwegia)? Because Scandianvian (and European in general) society is less machistic and militaristic than the USA and modern Russia.

How can anyone be protected by the police? Are the police everywhere? Do they stand watch over your bed at night? Do they walk you home from a bar at night? Do they go into the bathroom with you at a public toilet?

Depending on protection by people who aren't actually there to protect you is gambling with your life.

[Russian Bottom Slut]

I don't know how it's in America, but the most burglars in Russia try to rob an apartment when the inhibitants are outside (maybe on holidays, etc).

You can just install an iron door. Most Russians do so.

But I think it's quite rare now when burglars try to rob the flat with inhibitants inside and to kill someone.

So I don't undertand how a gun will save you from a burgalar.
An iron door is more suitable, I suppose.

Yet, I've never been in the USA, so in fact, I can't judge. We live in flats (or rich Russians live in heavy brick cotteges).

Maybe the construction of a typical American cottage is not so protected. Maybe you use more plastic and glass, I dunno.

[Russian Bottom Slut]

Anyway there should be more control. And some people seems crazy to me, when they have lots of guns, etc., I dunno... Still, it's up to you.

Sure, I understand that if you are living in a cottage, not in an apartment and on a high floor, the bulglar can just break the window.

But those Russians who live in a cottages constantly, usually have very thick birch fence or dogs.

In Russia burglars very often rob summer-cottages, which some people have (I don't)/ Summer-cottages are not so heavy. But usually burglars rob them not in summer, but in autumnt, then the inhibitants are outside.

[Russian Bottom Slut]

Oh, it's brick, not birch.

[Kulindahr]

Anyway there should be more control. And some people seems crazy to me, when they have lots of guns, etc., I dunno... Still, it's up to you.

Sure, I understand that if you are living in a cottage, not in an apartment and on a high floor, the bulglar can just break the window.

But those Russians who live in a cottages constantly, usually have very thick birch fence or dogs.

In Russia burglars very often rob summer-cottages, which some people have (I don't)/ Summer-cottages are not so heavy. But usually burglars rob them not in summer, but in autumnt, then the inhibitants are outside.

This is why the incidence of crimes against property when no people are present rises when "shall issue" concealed carry laws are passed -- criminals suddenly realize they're safer if there aren't any people around to fight back.

[Russian Bottom Slut]

Well, again, my point is that burglars usually rob you when you are NOT AT HOME.

So, the gun won't help you. It's better to make better fence and use more corpulent doors, not to use doors with glass or plastic elements.

We have criminal news on TV everyday and the majority of such crimes happen when people are at work or on summer vacation. If you are in the flat the burglars won't rob it. If you ain't there, a gun won't help you.

And a reasonable person should be at home after midnight. Those nightclubs are for the people who want to get drunk and to fight.

So, I don't get this "if you are alone on the street during the night and there are no cops" thing... Just stay at home after midnight and you will be ok.

A peaceful person wants peace. If some persons want to have troubles, it's up to them, but I still believe that guns should be restricted. Definately in MY counrty. It's up to American people themselves, how they solve this problem. I just hope that the voices of those people, who are against guns will be stronger, but certainly it's your choice.

[Kulindahr]

And a reasonable person should be at home after midnight. Those nightclubs are for the people who want to get drunk and to fight.

So, I don't get this "if you are alone on the street during the night and there are no cops" thing... Just stay at home after midnight and you will be ok.

You must have real shit night clubs where you are. We have lots that are for dancing and relaxing till the wee hours.

Your ending line basically says to live in fear and hide....

[Russian Bottom Slut]

Nope. I just don't like nightclubs. Not all of them are so bad. But I think it's more healthy to sleep during the night.

I don't live in fear. I just don't want to mess around with idiots on drugs (marijuana and ecstasy) and alcochol, that are usually visit nightclubs. It's unhealthy.

I can go to the theater instead of that. I suppose, there are a lot of pleasures in this life besides nightclubs.

And anyway, if that Oregon shooter had psycho problems, why his mother was allowed to have such amount of guns? It's idiotical.

[Kulindahr]

And anyway, if that Oregon shooter had psycho problems, why his mother was allowed to have such amount of guns? It's idiotical.

Because we don't penalize the innocent because of the actions of others?

[Russian Bottom Slut]

If a person has psycho problems he or she should not be allowed to:
1) drive a car (a driver should do it or a relative of this person, or a person must use public transport intead).
2) have a gun

in the 2nd case (but certainly not in the first) not only the person ITSELF, but the persons who live in the SAME house or apartment. If police knew that her relatives had psycho problems, why she had an opportunity to buy a gun? I don't understand.

[Kulindahr]

Because we don't penalize the innocent because of the actions of others.