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  1. #1
    JUB Addict chrisrobin's Avatar
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    Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/america...ts-of-shooting

    It is my sincere hope that the gunman was a member of a well-regulated militia.

    Merry Christmas Everyone! Ho Ho Ho!

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Another reason to shop online.

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/america...ts-of-shooting

    It is my sincere hope that the gunman was a member of a well-regulated militia.
    Obviously he wasn't, so that was a really inane remark.

    What surprises me is that there were no reports at all of armed citizens trying to take the guy out. If you run the statistics, one would expect at least three concealed carry holders armed at the mall. If course, they could have just realized what the police do: of all the places to try to take down a shooter, inside a mall is one of the worst, at least until the place is empty.

    A pleasant surprise was that every shop owner or manager they interviewed responded quickly and in the same way: get people inside the store, drop the steel gates securing the premises more the mall, and get everyone in the back. I'd really like to know if they have training and policy on that, or if they just all had the same good reaction.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Nothing will come of this shooting or the next one or the one after that etc.

  5. #5

    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Very sad. I used to live in that part of PDX.

    I feel sorry and pray for the families of the two people who were murdered.

  6. #6
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    So very sad and my Prayers go out to all of their loved ones....

  7. #7
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    At their morning news conference, the law enforcement spokesman (obviously not their trained one!) reported that 911 got multiple calls within a single minute, and that the first response unit was on the scene in literally the next minute. Even with a station just down the road, at this time of year with the Christmas shopping traffic that is an astounding response time! After that units just streamed in from all nearby jurisdictions.

    A protocol I've been calling for ever since Columbine was reported to have substantially impeded the shooter's "progress": the officers didn't wait for the SWAT team(s), but moved on in the moment they had backup. If I understood the speaker correctly, officers from different jurisdictions joined in pairs and moved in even though they'd never worked together or even met before, and did so rapidly enough that within a very short time the shooter's mobility was eliminated because there was no direction he could go without being confronted. Apparently he figured that out, because apparently the first thing he did after getting his weapon ready for a second round of shooting he turned it on himself.


    My hat's off to all those officers, who did their jobs the way they're supposed to, going right on in after the bad guy instead of hiding and waiting until they could do it safely.


    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    When has anyone actually pulled out their own gun and started to shoot at a perp, I've never heard of it. I don't carry a gun but if I heard someone shooting, Im hitting the deck, the last thing I'm thinking about is "let me get my piece and fire back". The last thing anyone trying to help want is to be mistaken to be with the person doing the shooting. When the police arrive, they don't try to decipher who has what, they will start shooting back, especially if they happen to pull in behind you.
    He got that thickness, the kind that make you get up makin' biscuits with breakfast, so gone - Jill Scott - So Gone

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Nothing will come of this shooting or the next one or the one after that etc.
    I would say many Americans are already jaded by shootings which is a tad sad.

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by justdra View Post
    When has anyone actually pulled out their own gun and started to shoot at a perp, I've never heard of it. .
    Sams St Johns Seafood Restaurant on the West side of Jacksonville, FL. A few years ago, two guys held the restaurant up. Two of the patrons produced guns and one of them shot one of the perpetrators. The guy's wife said something like "my husband has been waiting all his life for an opportunity like this".

  11. #11

    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Another example of American Exceptionalism. Exceptionally stupid gun laws.

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Another example of American Exceptionalism. Exceptionally stupid gun laws.
    There should be no gun laws at all. I've never owned a gun. Never felt the need. But, should I feel that need to purchase one, I should have the right to go to a gun shop and buy one without the government ever being aware of the transaction.

  13. #13
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    There should be no gun laws at all. I've never owned a gun. Never felt the need. But, should I feel that need to purchase one, I should have the right to go to a gun shop and buy one without the government ever being aware of the transaction.
    You should never be allowed to touch a weapon, and neither should anyone else that hasn't proven an actual need for it and given permission to own it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  14. #14
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by justdra View Post
    When has anyone actually pulled out their own gun and started to shoot at a perp, I've never heard of it. I don't carry a gun but if I heard someone shooting, Im hitting the deck, the last thing I'm thinking about is "let me get my piece and fire back". The last thing anyone trying to help want is to be mistaken to be with the person doing the shooting. When the police arrive, they don't try to decipher who has what, they will start shooting back, especially if they happen to pull in behind you.
    Started to shoot? Not often, except at home intruders.

    Of course the first thing is always to hit the deck, however armed you may well be. If it turns out you have a decent chance to take out the bad guy, the last thing you want to have done is made yourself a target first. Then you assess the situation: am I close enough to have a chance? is there a safe backdrop so I can shoot without risking someone else if I miss? if so, can I make that shot confidently enough to end the threat without becoming a casualty?

    In a mall shooting situation, the odds of the answers to those all being "yes" is pretty slim. So if I'd been there and armed, knowing it made no sense for me to act, I would have kept cover and had my sidearm out for two reasons: just in case the situation changed, and in case police moving in on him needed support.

    BTW, the standard protocol if cops come on you and you're a righteous shooter is to crop your weapon and identify yourself, and then follow their instructions. See, they will not actually start shooting back; they'll give a warning first unless you're plainly shooting innocents. The only time you don't do that is if an officer goes down -- then you tell his partner you're an armed citizen and can provide cover.

    This is one gripe I have with a Tom Clancy novel, where two FBI guys happen to be on site when a shooter cuts loose in a mall: to my training, they don't take sufficient precautions (OTOH, one could assume they were both expert marksmen).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #15
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Sams St Johns Seafood Restaurant on the West side of Jacksonville, FL. A few years ago, two guys held the restaurant up. Two of the patrons produced guns and one of them shot one of the perpetrators. The guy's wife said something like "my husband has been waiting all his life for an opportunity like this".
    I remember that one. I was disgusted by the comment -- no "well-regulated" gun owner should ever, ever WANT a chance to shoot in public. Like the firearms enthusiasts I know, my prayer every time I strap on my piece is, "Please, not this time".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #16
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    There should be no gun laws at all. I've never owned a gun. Never felt the need. But, should I feel that need to purchase one, I should have the right to go to a gun shop and buy one without the government ever being aware of the transaction.
    Ideally, yes. But to make the transition to that sort of responsible society would probably take two generations if the government worked at it hard.

    You can't just arm everyone as they please. Sure, it would shake out into a responsible society in a few years... and a few million deaths. Society has managed to teach people to be afraid of guns and to be dependent on people with no legal obligation to protect them, and so society owes it to all those people to re-educate them if a change back to responsibility is going to be made.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #17
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You should never be allowed to touch a weapon, and neither should anyone else that hasn't proven an actual need for it and given permission to own it.
    Any situation where permission is required is indicative that the people have lost their freedom, because it's usurpation of a basic right.

    And need is easy to prove: the violent crime rate is not zero.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #18
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    I didn't expect to know anyone who went to Clackamas Town Center (home of Tonya Harding's training rink, for trivia's sake) but it turns out one of my regular customers was there at the time, in the food court, with his kids. I haven't seen or talked to him personally, but another customer let us know. I understand he and his partner shielded the kids with their bodies as the first shots were fired. Then, after the shooting stopped they ran for the exits and the shooting started again.

    Obviously, I feel terrible for him. I know that re-living the fear in memory can cause terrible anxiety that is sometimes even worse than the real incident itself.

    (CEP: If I didn't have to consider the Bill of Rights, I'd happily ban most guns.)
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    I didn't expect to know anyone who went to Clackamas Town Center (home of Tonya Harding's training rink, for trivia's sake) but it turns out one of my regular customers was there at the time, in the food court, with his kids. I haven't seen or talked to him personally, but another customer let us know. I understand he and his partner shielded the kids with their bodies as the first shots were fired. Then, after the shooting stopped they ran for the exits and the shooting started again.

    Obviously, I feel terrible for him. I know that re-living the fear in memory can cause terrible anxiety that is sometimes even worse than the real incident itself.

    (CEP: If I didn't have to consider the Bill of Rights, I'd happily ban most guns.)
    Someone from my town was there, but not anyone I know.

    I agree; if it weren't for the right to keep and bear arms, I'd ban long guns within city limits. But the choice of weapon is up to the individual; that's an outgrowth of self-ownership.

    OTOH a fellow Pink Pistol maintains that all firearms carried in public should be long arms at least a yard in length, because it would be obvious who and how many were armed.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You should never be allowed to touch a weapon, and neither should anyone else that hasn't proven an actual need for it and given permission to own it.
    100% wrong, yet again.

  21. #21
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You should never be allowed to touch a weapon, and neither should anyone else that hasn't proven an actual need for it and given permission to own it.
    I actually earned my American Archer through camp [and taught archery at said camp too] when I was a teen could quite easily kill something with my composite bow. I never would of course but like most liberals, they have an irrational fear of weapons. Weapons don't kill people but the people that wield them do. Gun laws should prevent the mentally unstable and the felons from possessing them.

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    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    Any situation where permission is required is indicative that the people have lost their freedom, because it's usurpation of a basic right.

    And need is easy to prove: the violent crime rate is not zero.
    Yeah yeah yeah. Let's not, shall we?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    100% wrong, yet again.
    100% right, yet again.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post

    I actually earned my American Archer through camp [and taught archery at said camp too] when I was a teen could quite easily kill something with my composite bow. I never would of course but like most liberals, they have an irrational fear of weapons. Weapons don't kill people but the people that wield them do. Gun laws should prevent the mentally unstable and the felons from possessing them.
    The fear of a large quantity of firearms in the general population is anything but irrational. Liberals are just the only ones using their brain rather than their cowboy hats when considering the issue. And I'd say the paranoia that brings about the insistence to arm ourselves is much more indicative of fear really. As for ways to kill someone, you should see how proficient I am with a throwing knife
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You should never be allowed to touch a weapon, and neither should anyone else that hasn't proven an actual need for it and given permission to own it.
    Lol

    In America we have this thing

    Called

    The bill of rights

    If not avail

    Try the constitution

    Other than that you're spot on

    Check please

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    I'm all for the right to bear arms; however, I find it appalling that a maniac can so easily find access to and steal an assault rifle. It's like they grow on trees.

    This was terrible to hear about as it does hit close to home. There's a problem in this country. These mass murder and suicide shootings are becoming too commonplace. We are failing as a society here either in taking care of our citizens and preventing harm to others, or making it easy for them to gain access to weapons of mass destruction.
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So if I'd been there and armed, knowing it made no sense for me to act, I would have kept cover and had my sidearm out for two reasons: just in case the situation changed, and in case police moving in on him needed support.
    Good work.

    The police love it when unknown armed persons in confusing panic situations start shooting on their behalf.

  28. #28

    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    There should be no gun laws at all. I've never owned a gun. Never felt the need. But, should I feel that need to purchase one, I should have the right to go to a gun shop and buy one without the government ever being aware of the transaction.
    So you would support the right of convicted felons, drug lords, psychotics, sociopaths, minors, Al Queda members, members of street gangs and spouse abusers to purchase guns, bazookas, tomahawk missiles, etc.? And we're surprised that the Republican Party has a one way ticket to the ash heap of history.

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    I recall that, at the Tucson massacre, a man named Joe Zamudio ran out of a drug store with his own gun in his hand, ready to fire. By his own admission he was a split second from shooting the first man with a gun he saw. Trouble was, that second guy was the guy who took the gun AWAY from the real gunman.

    The real gunman was apprehended and restrained by unarmed people. The nearest armed civilian came within an inch of killing one of the heroes of the day.

    Armed civilians certainly didn't make anyone safer in Tucson that day.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893.../#.UMna5KUsrVs

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Gun laws should prevent the mentally unstable and the felons from possessing them.
    Unfortunately, it's the very laws that would prevent such people carrying guns that the NRA fight against. Most gun advocates share the opinion of Henry Reardon above: open slather, no rules, everyone gets a gun if they want one. You're not a danger to society until after you shoot someone.

  31. #31
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Good work.

    The police love it when unknown armed persons in confusing panic situations start shooting on their behalf.
    Can you think of a situation before policed arrived when a vigilante diffused a dangerous situation by firing a handgun?

  32. #32
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    All this gunslinging is starting to become a routine thing. We're going back to the wild west.


  33. #33
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Someone from my town was there, but not anyone I know.

    I agree; if it weren't for the right to keep and bear arms, I'd ban long guns within city limits. But the choice of weapon is up to the individual; that's an outgrowth of self-ownership.

    OTOH a fellow Pink Pistol maintains that all firearms carried in public should be long arms at least a yard in length, because it would be obvious who and how many were armed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre


    The Luby's massacre was a mass murder that took place on October 16, 1991, in Killeen, Texas, United States when George Hennard[1] (born October 15, 1956) drove his pickup truck into a Luby's cafeteria and shot 23 people to death while wounding another 20, subsequently committing suicide by shooting himself. It was the deadliest shooting rampage in American history until the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre.
    --snip--

    Hennard also approached 32-year-old Suzanna Hupp and her parents. Hupp reached for her .38 revolver in her purse, only to realize she had left it in her vehicle.

    I lived near this and recall the woman saying she could have stopped this but she left her gun in her purse and the purse was in the car.
    I didn't realize it was the deadliest until Va Tech.
    I suppose carrying would be best IF the person carrying has proper training.
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    So you would support the right of convicted felons, drug lords, psychotics, sociopaths, minors, Al Queda members, members of street gangs and spouse abusers to purchase guns, bazookas, tomahawk missiles, etc.? .
    Do you seriously believe that gun control laws will keep guns out of the hands of criminals? Get serious.

  35. #35
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    I actually earned my American Archer through camp [and taught archery at said camp too] when I was a teen could quite easily kill something with my composite bow. I never would of course but like most liberals, they have an irrational fear of weapons. Weapons don't kill people but the people that wield them do. Gun laws should prevent the mentally unstable and the felons from possessing them.
    We already have those. Bizarrely, the people arguably most likely to meet a felon trying to get a gun are gun dealers, yet those dealers are not deputized so they can make an arrest right there. They have to resort to subterfuge, like my friend "Dan the bangstick man" in his shop one day; when he ran the background check and it showed a felony, he told the guy there was a delay, then signaled me to block the guy's car in while my buddy called the cops. The cops knew the drill; they parked at the next store over, out of view, and came up quietly. Then Dan announced the system had responded, getting the guy's attention, while the cops moved in. When Dan asked, "Did you know you have a felony conviction?" the guy responded "Um, yeah, but--" That was as far as he got; a cop grabbed him from each side, because he'd essentially just confessed to a felony. I asked Dan afterward what he'd have done if we hadn't been there, and he said the only thing he could have done was let the guy walk and call the cops with the car plate number.

    That's why while something like a hundred thousand felons were prevented from buying weapons while Clinton was in office, the number of arrests was negligible.

    Deputize the dealers!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    There should be no gun laws at all. I've never owned a gun. Never felt the need. But, should I feel that need to purchase one, I should have the right to go to a gun shop and buy one without the government ever being aware of the transaction.
    This is why you can't be taken seriously. No gun laws at all? Do you have any idea the implications of that statement and what it means just from a law enforcement perspective? I just don't understand how you can make such broad, sweeping generalizations about important issues without cause or reason to your viewpoints. Without gun laws, violent, convicted felons could go to any gun store and purchase one. You'd have no regulation of a secondary market of people reselling guns to anyone they wanted to if they could buy them by bulk at a store. Without gun laws, any kind of gun would be available to consumers, including automatic assault rifles and other military grade weapons that are used for killing large amounts of people quickly, not hunting animals or protecting your person from a single assault. You would have no age limit of who could purchase a gun, and everyone could be walking around openly exposing their weapon in public to everyone else. You'd have guns in schools, hospitals, and any public place imaginable.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    . Without gun laws, violent, convicted felons could go to any gun store and purchase one..
    With gun laws felons can buy all the guys they lie in the underground economy/black market, so what's the difference?

  38. #38
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    I love how the right wing logic applies to gun rights but not marijuana.

  39. #39
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiff View Post
    All this gunslinging is starting to become a routine thing. We're going back to the wild west.
    Mass murders, especially those that target random victims, are quite rare.

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    I love how the right wing logic applies to gun rights but not marijuana.
    If you want to go off on a tangent and talk about marijuana, start a thread.

  41. #41
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Mass murders, especially those that target random victims, are quite rare.
    Quite right.

    What's not rare is women being killed by their partners and ex partners in the US. Around 70 percent of deaths in domestic violence incidents in the US are caused by guns. Three women are killed by a partner or ex partner with a gun every day in the US. Women who live in a household where guns are kept are at substantially greater statistical likelihood of being killed in a domestic violence incident. Domestic violence assaults involving a firearm are 12 times more likely to result in death than those involving other weapons or bodily force.

    http://smartgunlaws.org/the-differen...es/#more-21499

    Even more common are suicide gun deaths. Over 50% of all suicides in the US are committed with a firearm. On average, 49 gun suicides were committed each day for the years 2005-2010. A study of California handgun purchasers found that in the first year after the purchase of a handgun, suicide was the leading cause of death among the purchasers. More than 75% of guns used in suicide attempts and unintentional injuries of 0-19 year-olds were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend. The risk of successful suicide increases in homes where guns are kept loaded and/or unlocked.

    http://smartgunlaws.org/category/gun...ce-statistics/

  42. #42
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    ^^^

    The only action that would stop that in the United States would be unwarranted search and seizure in every household. Gun laws don't stop the illegal trafficking of firearms. This was a problem highlighted by the recent gun restrictions struck down in Illinois.

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    With gun laws felons can buy all the guys they lie in the underground economy/black market, so what's the difference?
    That's a ridiculous generalization and assumption. So let's just make it easier for violent, convicted felons to buy an automatic assault rifle (legal in your world) because they'll probably put in the effort and difficulty to get on the "black market" anyway?
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  44. #44
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    If you want to go off on a tangent and talk about marijuana, start a thread.
    My point was quite germane to this thread. You can't reject the "prohibition is pointless because the vice is pervasive" argument with respect to one debate and embrace it with another.

    Well, you can, but you can't maintain any sort of intellectual consistency.

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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    With gun laws felons can buy all the guys they lie in the underground economy/black market, so what's the difference?
    Henry has a point here, guys. When I once happened to be in "felony flats" in Portland, the topic of guns came up in a conversation with some guys who lived there. It turned out that every one of the group, from age 15 to age 22, had a handgun, which they were happy to show off. When I asked prices on a couple of the guns, those were lower than I knew they'd been in the nearby K-Mart. Now, over on the coast, the guns aren't quite that easy to get, and the prices are definitely more than in a store, and I've never bumped into anyone as young as 15 packing one (except on their dads' farms). But I know for a fact that at least three of those gun owners were felons, risking prison by even having one.

    Maybe extrapolating from a city of 'only' a million people doesn't work, but I can't believe it's much harder to get guns in bigger cities with nastier crime.


    But my point that this society is nowhere near being able to handle a situation with no gun laws at all still stands.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  46. #46
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    I love how the right wing logic applies to gun rights but not marijuana.
    That's Republicans for you -- the only rights people should be allowed to exercise are the ones they like. But we're a lot closer to being a society where we could drop the laws on recreational drugs than to where we could drop the laws on guns.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; December 13th, 2012 at 10:53 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  47. #47
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Quite right.

    What's not rare is women being killed by their partners and ex partners in the US. Around 70 percent of deaths in domestic violence incidents in the US are caused by guns. Three women are killed by a partner or ex partner with a gun every day in the US. Women who live in a household where guns are kept are at substantially greater statistical likelihood of being killed in a domestic violence incident. Domestic violence assaults involving a firearm are 12 times more likely to result in death than those involving other weapons or bodily force.

    http://smartgunlaws.org/the-differen...es/#more-21499

    Even more common are suicide gun deaths. Over 50% of all suicides in the US are committed with a firearm. On average, 49 gun suicides were committed each day for the years 2005-2010. A study of California handgun purchasers found that in the first year after the purchase of a handgun, suicide was the leading cause of death among the purchasers. More than 75% of guns used in suicide attempts and unintentional injuries of 0-19 year-olds were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend. The risk of successful suicide increases in homes where guns are kept loaded and/or unlocked.

    http://smartgunlaws.org/category/gun...ce-statistics/
    The proper prescription for this is education and training. We should start firearms training in grade school, with the NRA's award-winning (and proven effective) "Eddie Eagle" program, and move on to safety in handling, drilling in the concepts until they're second nature. Training should get people into the same mind-set I have: that pointing guns at human beings is not what they're for, except when someone engages in potentially lethal violence against people or a few other circumstances. Guns are for aiming at cans, targets, food animals when you need one, pumpkins, balloons -- but not humans.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  48. #48
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's Republicans for you -- the only rights people should be allowed to exercise are the ones they like. But we're a lot closer to being a society where we could drop the laws on recreational drugs than to where we could drop the laws on guns.
    To be fair, I guess the same is true of the left-wingers who want prohibition of guns, but acknowledge that it's useless for drugs.

  49. #49
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    To be fair, I guess the same is true of the left-wingers who want prohibition of guns, but acknowledge that it's useless for drugs.
    Bingo.

    Neither of the "Big Two" sides of the two-faced whore called Congress really believes in the Bill of Rights.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  50. #50
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    Re: Oregon Shooting - Not again!

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    To be fair, I guess the same is true of the left-wingers who want prohibition of guns, but acknowledge that it's useless for drugs.
    Um, that would be because it's way harder to kill a theater full of people with recreational drugs than with a semi-automatic... To equate guns with drugs... makes a sense that is not.
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