Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

[T-Rexx]

Bush didn't "wreck" the economy (your Kool-Aid drinking notwithstanding).

Indeed. Depressions are great things, if you happen to be phenomenally wealthy.

[JockBoy87]

A. I'm not a conservative Republican.

Given your zealous defense of conservative Republican viewpoints and politicians, and dismissive or disdainful reproach of liberal ones, I'm hard pressed to say you are not.

[NCAA Umpire]

You can be as hard pressed as you wish. The fact remains that I'm not a conservative Republican. Nor am I a liberal Democrat.

[Rolyo85]

It always amuses me when hardcore conservatives claim they aren't ones, as if that changes who their viewpoints match with. We have more than one poster of that type here.

And Bush wrecked the economy.

[JockBoy87]

You can be as hard pressed as you wish. The fact remains that I'm not a conservative Republican. Nor am I a liberal Democrat.

Oh no, I believed you the first time

[palemale]

A. I'm not a conservative Republican.
B. Bush didn't "wreck" the economy (your Kool-Aid drinking notwithstanding).

I guess you would be a conservative Republican if they didn't oppose same-sex marriage.

Bush (and his policies and administration) didn't wreck the economy? Who did? Oh, I know. Barney Frank and Fannie Mae. Sorry, I didn't get the Republican talking points memo and and forgot to watch Sean Hannity.

[HenryReardon]

.

And Bush wrecked the economy.

Bush did many things he shouldn't have, but he can't take responsibility for wrecking the economy. That lies mostly with liberal programs that resulted in mortgages being taken out by people who weren't capable of paying them. Bush tried (somewhat lamely) to reign in Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae but was stopped mostly by slobbering Barney Frank whose power on that particular congressional committee was absolute.

When banks are clamoring to lend up to 110% (and in cases, more) of the value your home, there's something very wrong. That, at least, has stopped. I hope.

[chance1]

ADD is the thingy

Right to work ...... In Michigan

Half the states in the country

Now Michigan

It's a trend

Much like gay marriage support

"Bush wrecked the economy"

Bush attacked the Benghazi consulate

Bush killed Kennedy

Bush drove his car off the Chappaquidick bridge and left a girl to die

Bush told Rosa parks to get her ass up on THE BUS

Gonna start a new thread

"What bush did"

TGIF

[palemale]

Bush did many things he shouldn't have, but he can't take responsibility for wrecking the economy. That lies mostly with liberal programs that resulted in mortgages being taken out by people who weren't capable of paying them. Bush tried (somewhat lamely) to reign in Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae but was stopped mostly by slobbering Barney Frank whose power on that particular congressional committee was absolute.

When banks are clamoring to lend up to 110% (and in cases, more) of the value your home, there's something very wrong. That, at least, has stopped. I hope.

The world according to Republicans. Did liberals also wreck the economy by failing to teach creationism in public schools? If only public school students had learned that the earth is 6,000 years old, that people rode dinosaurs and to beware of the homosexual agenda, the economy under Bush would have been rock solid.

[loki81]

The world according to Republicans. Did liberals also wreck the economy by failing to teach creationism in public schools? If only public school students had learned that the earth is 6,000 years old, that people rode dinosaurs and to beware of the homosexual agenda, the economy under Bush would have been rock solid.

not sure what creationism has to do with the price of tea in china.... but yes, the Clintonian idea that everyone should be a home-owner and laxed lending standards (which Bush ran with and gets no credit for trying to prevent) had a lot to do with the mortgage meltdown.

[Jack Springer]

not sure what creationism has to do with the price of tea in china.... but yes, the Clintonian idea that everyone should be a home-owner and laxed lending standards (which Bush ran with and gets no credit for trying to prevent) had a lot to do with the mortgage meltdown.

You're right Loki. Bush was warned about keeping Clinton's plan of everyone owning a house .... the result .... disaster.

[HenryReardon]

The world according to Republicans. Did liberals also wreck the economy by failing to teach creationism in public schools? If only public school students had learned that the earth is 6,000 years old, that people rode dinosaurs and to beware of the homosexual agenda, the economy under Bush would have been rock solid.

All of which have nothing to do with anything.
You're dissembling, and it shows.

[xbuzzerx]

A. I'm not a conservative Republican.
B. Bush didn't "wreck" the economy (your Kool-Aid drinking notwithstanding).

He personally didn't shove his finger out and knock the economy over per se, correct.

However the long running policy of deregulation and unenforced oversight in the name of a free market ideology embraced by the Republicans for decades, and which George W Bush was most assuredly a big part of, was.

[xbuzzerx]

Bush did many things he shouldn't have, but he can't take responsibility for wrecking the economy. That lies mostly with liberal programs that resulted in mortgages being taken out by people who weren't capable of paying them. Bush tried (somewhat lamely) to reign in Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae but was stopped mostly by slobbering Barney Frank whose power on that particular congressional committee was absolute.

When banks are clamoring to lend up to 110% (and in cases, more) of the value your home, there's something very wrong. That, at least, has stopped. I hope.

Right of course, private homeloan subprime lenders who high pressure quick-signatured loans without income verification knowing full well they wouldn't be participating in any aspect of collecting on the loan, and selling it to Wall Street and made huge money off the signing and closing fees before turning the loan over were all ordered to do so by liberal policies. Likewise the Wall Street entities who mixed these knowingly uncollectible loans into Triple-A rated homeloan investments and spread them all over the world in investment packages were also forced to do so by liberal policies.

I'll buy the pass to the pool on the roof, while we're at it.

[Benvolio]

He personally didn't shove his finger out and knock the economy over per se, correct.

However the long running policy of deregulation and unenforced oversight in the name of a free market ideology embraced by the Republicans for decades, and which George W Bush was most assuredly a big part of, was.

How was he part of it?

[xbuzzerx]

How was he part of it?

You're kidding right? He supported a ton of deregulation.

[NCAA Umpire]

It always amuses me when hardcore conservatives claim they aren't ones, as if that changes who their viewpoints match with. We have more than one poster of that type here.

And Bush wrecked the economy.

It always amazes me when liberals call someone a conservative Republican just because said person dares to disagree with their warped view of society and reality, or just because said person opposes what a left-wing president does. As the saying goes, "One should never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me."

[NCAA Umpire]

I guess you would be a conservative Republican if they didn't oppose same-sex marriage.

Except that I don't oppose it. I don't care either way. I also oppose laws that ban flag burning. I oppose laws that would bar Rev. Phelps and his nutjobs from protesting at military funerals with their "God hates fags" signs. I can't find many conservative Republicans who hold those positions. But that's OK. If some ignoramuses here want to think I'm a conservative Republican, there are worse things I could be called.

[EastMed]

Bush did many things he shouldn't have, but he can't take responsibility for wrecking the economy. That lies mostly with liberal programs that resulted in mortgages being taken out by people who weren't capable of paying them. Bush tried (somewhat lamely) to reign in Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae but was stopped mostly by slobbering Barney Frank whose power on that particular congressional committee was absolute.

When banks are clamoring to lend up to 110% (and in cases, more) of the value your home, there's something very wrong. That, at least, has stopped. I hope.

Erm... the financial crisis was caused by the mispricing of risk in a broken and deregulated market.

There's a lot of blame to share:

Alan Greenspan, chairman US Federal Reserve 1987-2006
A disciple of libertarian icon Ayn Rand, Greenspan became chairman of the Fed just in time to save the global economy from the 1987 stock market crash from becoming a full-blown disaster. He went on preside over the boom years of the 90s and lead the US economy through the aftermath of the September 11 attacks and was widely referred to as an "oracle" and "the maestro".

But Greenspan's super-low interest rates and consistent opposition to regulation of the multitrillion-dollar derivatives market are now widely blamed for causing the credit crisis. Under Greenspan's tenure the derivatives market went from barely registering to a $500 trillion industry, despite billionaire investor Warren Buffett warning that they were "financial weapons of mass destruction".

His rock-bottom rates encouraged Americans to load up on debt to buy homes, even when they had no savings, no income and no job prospects.

These so-called sub-prime borrowers were the cannon fodder for the biggest boom-bust in US history. The housing collapse brought the global economy to its knees.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...heart-meltdown

[HenryReardon]

Right of course, private homeloan subprime lenders who high pressure quick-signatured loans without income verification knowing full well they wouldn't be participating in any aspect of collecting on the loan, and selling it to Wall Street and made huge money off the signing and closing fees before turning the loan over were all ordered to do so by liberal policies. Likewise the Wall Street entities who mixed these knowingly uncollectible loans into Triple-A rated homeloan investments and spread them all over the world in investment packages were also forced to do so by liberal policies.

I'll buy the pass to the pool on the roof, while we're at it.

Let's not overlook the fact that Federal bureaucrats were pushing banks to lend money in certain areas - pushing hard, complete with threats.

There's so much blame to go around, and the roots of the crisis go back at least to Jimmy Carter.

In any case, it was Bush's economy only in the sense that he was POTUS at the time.

[xbuzzerx]

Let's not overlook the fact that Federal bureaucrats were pushing banks to lend money in certain areas - pushing hard, complete with threats.

There's so much blame to go around, and the roots of the crisis go back at least to Jimmy Carter.

In any case, it was Bush's economy only in the sense that he was POTUS at the time.

Well unfortunately I worked in an accounting office throughout the entire debacle and I saw the ENDLESS e-mails and faxes of requests coming in from CountryWide and other agencies asking us to simply verify that we prepared a tax return for x person-- no income verification--- so that they could close their homeloan.

Over 90% of these people were middle or upper middle class white people buying investment properties with dollar signs in their eyes knowing full well they couldn't afford the mortgage long term and weren't planning to, they were planning on dumping it back off in 6 months when the house had gone up $200,000 in value.

Don't give me this absolute bullcrap that the housing crisis was poor first-time black homeowners getting unreal loans for $70,000 houses in economically depressed areas.

[HenryReardon]

Well unfortunately I worked in an accounting office throughout the entire debacle and I saw the ENDLESS e-mails and faxes of requests coming in from CountryWide and other agencies asking us to simply verify that we prepared a tax return for x person-- no income verification--- so that they could close their homeloan.

Over 90% of these people were middle or upper middle class white people buying investment properties with dollar signs in their eyes knowing full well they couldn't afford the mortgage long term and weren't planning to, they were planning on dumping it back off in 6 months when the house had gone up $200,000 in value.

Don't give me this absolute bullcrap that the housing crisis was poor first-time black homeowners getting unreal loans for $70,000 houses in economically depressed areas.

And they wouldn't have been able to invest in spec housing if the government hadn't created the climate for it.

[Rolyo85]

It always amazes me when liberals call someone a conservative Republican just because said person dares to disagree with their warped view of society and reality, or just because said person opposes what a left-wing president does. As the saying goes, "One should never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me."

When you try to repeat somebody else's post structure, please read the words correctly. Also, I call people conservative republicans, when they repeat talking points instead of showing critical thinking. Opposition requires a personal opinion, repeating what you read on Breitbarf isn't opposition. It's being a lemming.

[xbuzzerx]

And they wouldn't have been able to invest in spec housing if the government hadn't created the climate for it.

It is AMAZING to me how fast the "personal accountability" rhetoric goes way out the window the moment that free market opportunism has created a crisis that hurt everyone. It's then the government's fault.

[HenryReardon]

It is AMAZING to me how fast the "personal accountability" rhetoric goes way out the window the moment that free market opportunism has created a crisis that hurt everyone. It's then the government's fault.

It's always the government's fault - at least 99.44% of the time.

[Rolyo85]

It's always the government's fault - at least 99.44% of the time.

How can you stand to live in a country where you hate your own government so much? That is completely unfathomable to me...

[xbuzzerx]

It's always the government's fault - at least 99.44% of the time.

Let's be clear though. Having stipulations for low income first time homebuyers to get credit and then saying an entire loan and banking industry colluding to give out knowingly bad loans and hide them shredded up into fraudulently triple-A rated investment packages around the world is like saying it's the government's fault that matches are legal and x amount of people commit arson insurance fraud every year.

The Fannie Mae thing is a total red herring, the issue was not enough regulation and oversight of the subprime industry and particularly the INVESTMENTS as the collusion between those two industries enabled both of them to profit and shift the liability off on the taxpayer (ultimately.) If either step along the way had been properly regulated the entire fiasco wouldn't have been possible. The fact that the people seeking the rating on their investments are also the one paying the companies that give the ratings was also a pretty big LOL.

But yes, let's blame it all on first time inner city homeowner lending policies... clearly that was what made this all happen and forced fraud and greed up on the poor poor innocent shareholders and executives of CountryWide and Wall Street who simply had to engage in massive fraud when they knew they could profit off of it.

[HenryReardon]

The Fannie Mae thing is a total red herring, the issue was not enough regulation and oversight of the subprime industry and particularly the .

t.

Without the backing of Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae the bad mortgages could not have been issued.

Are you totally unaware of the fact that banks were being threatened by the gov to make loans in areas that had previously been redlined?

[xbuzzerx]

Without the backing of Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae the bad mortgages could not have been issued.

Are you totally unaware of the fact that banks were being threatened by the gov to make loans in areas that had previously been redlined?

Are you totally unaware of the fact that inner city low income people buying their first home weren't the ones speculatively over-mortgaging by a factor of 4x what they could afford? Boom speculators were, and most often not with their primary home.

[Jack Springer]

^^^

Prove it.

[xbuzzerx]

^^^

Prove it.

I'm not going to scour the net for links to things for people have absolutely proven they completely disregard facts or figures. It's a waste of time.

If there was the thinnest shred of intellectual integrity to your request for data I'd go to the bother.

[HenryReardon]

Are you totally unaware of the fact that inner city low income people buying their first home weren't the ones speculatively over-mortgaging by a factor of 4x what they could afford? Boom speculators were, and most often not with their primary home.

There is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_discrimination

and this

http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/03/wi...can-americans/

and this

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/articl...risis-not-bank

just for openers.

[Jack Springer]

I'm not going to scour the net for links to things for people have absolutely proven they completely disregard facts or figures. It's a waste of time.

If there was the thinnest shred of intellectual integrity to your request for data I'd go to the bother.

So you statement was false.

[JockBoy87]

It always amazes me when liberals call someone a conservative Republican just because said person dares to disagree with their warped view of society and reality, or just because said person opposes what a left-wing president does. As the saying goes, "One should never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me."

Neutral people are generally not disparaging, especially not when its only to one side. That's why you aren't very convincing.

[HenryReardon]

So you statement was false.

And we shouldn't forget one very important factor. When the standards were lowered for poor people, it opened the floodgates for the rampant speculation in houses that has been mentioned.

All because liberals in government decided to buy the votes of people at the lower end of the socieo-economic scale.

[rareboy]

Neutral people are generally not disparaging, especially not when its only to one side. That's why you aren't very convincing.

You've noticed this too?

It is like the faux fence sitters who try to pretend their minds aren't made up, thinking that as others see their 'journey' through an issue they will be won over by the oleaginous logic and talking points to the posters own a priori conclusion.

The 'I'm not racist, but....'

The 'I don't hate Obama, but...'

The 'My mind is not made up, but.....'

[palemale]

It always amazes me when liberals call someone a conservative Republican just because said person dares to disagree with their warped view of society and reality, or just because said person opposes what a left-wing president does. As the saying goes, "One should never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me."

I referred to you as a conservative Republican not because you disagreed with my view of society and reality, but because you were parroting conservative Republican talking points. You didn't criticize President Obama from the perspective of a libertarian, marxist, moderate Republican or Democrat or based on any other discernible view point. If it walks like a duck, quacks likes a duck and swims like a duck, one can fairly assume it is a duck.

[palemale]

Let's not overlook the fact that Federal bureaucrats were pushing banks to lend money in certain areas - pushing hard, complete with threats.

There's so much blame to go around, and the roots of the crisis go back at least to Jimmy Carter.

In any case, it was Bush's economy only in the sense that he was POTUS at the time.

You overlook the real cause of the economic crisis. The use of derivatives and credit default swaps skyrocketed during the Bush years, with barely a peep from federal regulators. These exotic instruments resulted in bad loans being split up and sold as securities to investors who were lulled into a false sense of security by corrupt rating agencies who rated them as safe investments. Banks like Goldman Sacs knew they were selling securities that were worthless piles of shit. These instruments gave banks and the mortgage industry had an incentive to give mortgages to people who could never pay them back because they earned fees, but broke up the mortgages and sold them to unsuspecting investors because those making the loans ended up with no exposure when the borrowers defaulted on the mortgages.

Naked greed, aided and abetted by an "anti-regulation" do-nothing administration, wrecked the economy. The myth of Barney Frank and Fannie and Freddie destroying the economy is no more true than creationsim. Republicans continue to live in a fact free zone. That is why they will likely go the way of the Whigs.

[HenryReardon]

. The myth of Barney Frank and Fannie and Freddie destroying the economy is no more true than creationsim. .

Continue to live in lotus-land if you like, but some of us know better than to succumb.

[xbuzzerx]

So you statement was false.

No, I just am not going to spend 40 minutes preparing links for someone who has demonstrated time and again that when presented with hard facts he's either going to ignore them or leave and not respond. It is what I said-- a waste of time.

You overlook the real cause of the economic crisis. The use of derivatives and credit default swaps skyrocketed during the Bush years, with barely a peep from federal regulators. These exotic instruments resulted in bad loans being split up and sold as securities to investors who were lulled into a false sense of security by corrupt rating agencies who rated them as safe investments. Banks like Goldman Sacs knew they were selling securities that were worthless piles of shit. These instruments gave banks and the mortgage industry had an incentive to give mortgages to people who could never pay them back because they earned fees, but broke up the mortgages and sold them to unsuspecting investors because those making the loans ended up with no exposure when the borrowers defaulted on the mortgages.

Naked greed, aided and abetted by an "anti-regulation" do-nothing administration, wrecked the economy. The myth of Barney Frank and Fannie and Freddie destroying the economy is no more true than creationsim. Republicans continue to live in a fact free zone. That is why they will likely go the way of the Whigs.

This. What I said remains valid, saying that policies meant to enable low income first-time homebuyers to get credit in former redline district somehow forced the hand of the entire apparatus of Wall Street and the subprime industry to engage in a massive tsunami of housing speculation and uncollectible loans to people buying 2nd or 3rd investment properties in high housing value areas is the same as saying "matches are legal, it's therefore the government's fault that people burn down their houses to defraud insurance companies."

Only in this case the insurance company was the taxpayer, and Wall Street and the real estate financing industry in general made enormous profit off willful defrauding of the securities sector.

Henry, your position is basically unworthy of credibility to me when on any other issue regulations or government action of any kind would be the "problem", but when the lack of regulation allowed massive fraud by private industries for private profit, it's still the government's fault. Basically at this point I have no reason to believe your position wouldn't be "it's the government's fault" on any issue regardless of the circumstances, you more or less already said so a few posts ago, so like the Israel discussion--- what is the point of discussing these topics with you? Your position is going to pop out like a prewritten fortune cookie message any of us could predict so I fail to see the point.

[Rolyo85]

Continue to live in lotus-land if you like, but some of us know better than to succumb.

Some of you know very little about anything actually. Which is why all your posts are copy-pasted from other people's opinions. Cause you got none of your own.

[HenryReardon]

Some of you know very little about anything actually. Which is why all your posts are copy-pasted from other people's opinions. Cause you got none of your own.

Oh dear. Did I strike a nerve when I tossed a few actual cold hard facts into the equation? quel dommage.

[rareboy]

Some of you know very little about anything actually. Which is why all your posts are copy-pasted from other people's opinions. Cause you got none of your own.

Life is so much easier when FOX, Rush and BreitBarf just keep telling you what to say in a C&P forum.

[xbuzzerx]

Oh dear. Did I strike a nerve when I tossed a few actual cold hard facts into the equation? quel dommage.

More like an in-denial scapegoat argument to maintain the integrity of a capitalism-doesn't-have-bad-points-or-accountability, blame-gub'mint worldview. Facts, not so much.

[Rolyo85]

Oh dear. Did I strike a nerve when I tossed a few actual cold hard facts into the equation? quel dommage.

You tossed what where now? I am sorry, I must have missed them among all the nonsense. Would you care to point me at them specifically? I would be ever so grateful

[cocksucker4use]

From personal experience, my first job out of school was with the University of Illinois Hospitals. I was an RN working on a medical floor. Talk about workin your ass off. We had a nurse's union. Nurses got annual increases based on the contract. Coworkers who were non-union professionals (like occupational therapists) hadn't had a raise in three years. When their annual reviews were coming due, they were notified that the review date was pushed back six months -- six different times! No review, no pay. Anybody who thinks that corporations give a flying fuck about their employees is delusional. Who does the work and produces the widgets to sate a piggy marketplace in order to further engorge the stockholders? As long as management can find cheap labor and treat them anyway they want, they don't have to become innovative, they don't have to devise ways to increase productivity and profitablility. Just hire and fire muppets to compensate for greed and incompetence. So, conserative JUBBERS, champions of freedom, consider this. Industry hires low skilled workers at a big discount, and doesn't have to give them insurance or retirement benefits. Little or no time off. Poor or no healthcare for them and their issue. They spend a lifetime working for peanuts, barely feeding their families who are going on to be a permanant underclass. They get sick, disabled, old....what do have?? A bunch of lazy assholes looking for entitlements!? Well, anyway, that settles the immigrant labor problem. Who needs them, when we have unorganized laborers willing to work for whatever. Only better these are documented slugs who have social security numbers, so we can tax what little we give them....while the ten figure execs pay nothing into the system. Cuz, well, they create the jobs, right? And they pay a disproportinate amount of sales tax. Jeez.

[xbuzzerx]

^ YUP.

The reality of the non-union workplace is get the money you need when you are hired, don't count on raises. If you get them they're rare, way overdue, and if they surpass inflation you got lucky. This is a huge part of why people my age are switching jobs much more often. They're never going to squeeze raises out of their employers generally speaking.

[Jack Springer]

From personal experience, my first job out of school was with the University of Illinois Hospitals. I was an RN working on a medical floor. Talk about workin your ass off. We had a nurse's union. Nurses got annual increases based on the contract. Coworkers who were non-union professionals (like occupational therapists) hadn't had a raise in three years. When their annual reviews were coming due, they were notified that the review date was pushed back six months -- six different times! No review, no pay. Anybody who thinks that corporations give a flying fuck about their employees is delusional. Who does the work and produces the widgets to sate a piggy marketplace in order to further engorge the stockholders? As long as management can find cheap labor and treat them anyway they want, they don't have to become innovative, they don't have to devise ways to increase productivity and profitablility. Just hire and fire muppets to compensate for greed and incompetence. So, conserative JUBBERS, champions of freedom, consider this. Industry hires low skilled workers at a big discount, and doesn't have to give them insurance or retirement benefits. Little or no time off. Poor or no healthcare for them and their issue. They spend a lifetime working for peanuts, barely feeding their families who are going on to be a permanant underclass. They get sick, disabled, old....what do have?? A bunch of lazy assholes looking for entitlements!? Well, anyway, that settles the immigrant labor problem. Who needs them, when we have unorganized laborers willing to work for whatever. Only better these are documented slugs who have social security numbers, so we can tax what little we give them....while the ten figure execs pay nothing into the system. Cuz, well, they create the jobs, right? And they pay a disproportinate amount of sales tax. Jeez.

So what you're saying is that union people are the 1% of the working class.

[Jack Springer]

No, I just am not going to spend 40 minutes preparing links for someone who has demonstrated time and again that when presented with hard facts he's either going to ignore them or leave and not respond. It is what I said-- a waste of time.

If you can't place the links to back up what you say is true documentation about who abused the mortgage system then sorry I and others will look at your post as a comment ... not as fact.

[xbuzzerx]

If you can't place the links to back up what you say is true documentation about who abused the mortgage system then sorry I and others will look at your post as a comment ... not as fact.

Until you offer some proof that government regulations to fix low-income first time homebuying in redlined districts somehow compelled lenders to give 600,000 loans to investment buyers who couldn't afford the mortgage and forced Wall Street to give those loans triple A ratings nad spread them around the world in investments, the position you're defending is more than a comment. It's ideological myth.

I was allowed to buy matches. I had to commit arson insurance fraud. The government made me do it.

P.S. Positive assertion wars go both ways. Validate what you say before you demand everyone else do so.