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  1. #151
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Henry Ford, who wasn't exactly a lover of employees, understood capitalism: people have to have enough money to buy your product and, when they do, you make more money from more product sales. Walmart has lamented that its sales have slowed and same-store sales are not increasing at the rate it to which it grew accustomed.

    If one studies the emerging market areas of the world -- Mexico, China, and beyond -- you see what the lack of a middle class does. The worker labors for hours yet cannot afford to buy the product produced. As a result, the work is exported but with middle classes squeezed in mature markets, the enthusiasm and ability to purchase is also diminished. I was just in a meeting with Mexican officials who are discouraged because U.S. companies once flocked to that country to set up shop. After giving them practically anything they wanted, they have now abandoned the properties (often with contamination) and moved to China. I will bet as that market grows, they'll again move to even lower standard of living areas. But those at the top continue to pull in the wealth and the separation between haves and have-nots grows. Our capitalistic system is beginning to remind me more of a communist system found in the Soviet Union; those with the capability to influence government benefited while the average person nearly starved until the system collapsed.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Serfs don't have a lot of disposable income.
    LOL you're a riot.

  3. #153
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Amusing.

    The first set of graphs actually proves the point you were trying to refute.

    Maybe reading the article?

    After the Reagan Administration lowered tax rates in the 1980s and the Bush Administration lowered them again in the 2000s, the incentives for the top quintile of income earners to report their income increased; therefore, the "government's" income data more accurately reflected true incomes compared with earlier periods. Lower tax rates also allow top income earners to keep more of their income and make "productive" choices instead of giving "their money" to the government. Although income inequality may look worse because of tax reform, reforming our tax system should continue to be at the forefront of political debates despite the myths about income inequality.
    So when tax rates were 71%, people at the top don't report as much of what they make as income. When we actually lower rates, people have an incentive to report more of what they make as income. The numbers went up in part because of changes to the tax laws, not because rich (and the top 20% bracket starts at about a paltry $80K per year) are getting unconscionable increases in income at the expense of the poor. The myth is busted.

  4. #154

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    What you are overlooking is that all the lagal burdens on employers count as the cost of labor to the company. They have be be considered part of the wages they are getting.. So if a woman and her lawyer collect 5 million because one employee pats a female employee on the butt, that is part of the wages the employees collect. Employees, unions and union bosses constitently work for "benefits" like that, without realizing that it is part of their wages i.e. cost of labor to the company. US employees are by far the highest paid in the world, but much is in the form of all the "benefits", like lawsuits, affirmative action, maternity leave etc etc..

  5. #155
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    So let's get rid of employee protections then. Women are asking for it anyway, right? If I am understanding you correctly, I mean.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Oh and by the way, we haven't discussed how well behaved the union thugs were at the Michigan protests. Let's see how the left peacefully protests.

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=u_F3o...%3Du_F3oev06i0

    Let's see, they assaulted the gentleman in the black leather jacket and purposely collapsed a tent that had people inside.

  7. #157
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Maybe reading the article?
    JockBoy is correct. The data presented (said to be from the U.S. Census Bureau) demonstrate quite the opposite of what the author is claiming. Look at it.

    Apparently, the author assumed most people wouldn't pay any attention to the data, and he could put one over on us.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    The myth is busted.
    Indeed. The myth the author is trying to foment has been busted.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Total nonsense. There was a time, several years ago, when you had a rudimentary grasp of capitalism. What happened?
    Your version of capitalism is predatory, plunderer capitalism which is just a new form of serfdom.

    I know how capitalism works. I also know when it is working as a mechanism of greed that treats the workers as cattle. That variety, which the Republican party drools over, is the reason that unions are more necessary than before.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #159

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    No, Roly, you do not understand. Ask the workers. Would you rather have higher wages for all, or higher windfalls for patted women and their lawyers? They need to realize that all those "benefits" reduce wages.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No, Roly, you do not understand. Ask the workers. Would you rather have higher wages for all, or higher windfalls for patted women and their lawyers? They need to realize that all those "benefits" reduce wages.
    You are right, I don't understand. Do you mean women should NOT be protected from male co-workers' advances, so that everyone gets paid better? Please, help me understand.
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  11. #161

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Your version of capitalism is predatory, plunderer capitalism which is just a new form of serfdom.

    I know how capitalism works. I also know when it is working as a mechanism of greed that treats the workers as cattle. That variety, which the Republican party drools over, is the reason that unions are more necessary than before.
    Look again. Unions--against private employers-- are on the way out, because they are winning, i.e. sucking their employers dry. It is the unions who are the predators, as proven by the demise of their employer/victoms.
    Unions warring against public entities are in a somewhat different situation. They suck the public dry and eventualy the public must revolt, as in WI and MI.
    Unions and their bosses have no ability to restrain their all-consuming greed.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Your version of capitalism is predatory, plunderer capitalism which is just a new form of serfdom.

    I know how capitalism works. I also know when it is working as a mechanism of greed that treats the workers as cattle. That variety, which the Republican party drools over, is the reason that unions are more necessary than before.
    Oh, puh-leeze. Even the most jaded lefty doesn't believe that drivel.
    "Plunder capitalism" indeed. That's so funny my laughter might even make my headache go away.

  13. #163

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You are right, I don't understand. Do you mean women should NOT be protected from male co-workers' advances, so that everyone gets paid better? Please, help me understand.
    Punish the co- worker. Corporations do not pat women on the butt. Or if the employees and their union bosses want huge windfalls for patted women and their lawyers, then they must realize it that is part of their salary.

  14. #164
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    So "patted" women is as far as it ever goes? No case of actual rape?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  15. #165
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Are you kidding me?

    This article doesn't deny the income inequality, it then just goes off on a list of rants about how the income equality "doesn't matter."
    It also hides the reality of things by keeping the discussion to mere quintiles. The real problem is the plundering class of the top half-percent.

    It also makes the claim that since the lower quintiles have seen income growth, it doesn't matter if the top has as well. That's totally bogus; it's like saying that in a race, the fact that the runners in the back are advancing makes it irrelevant that the guys in front are kicking their butts. The real problem is actually revealed in a very inane comparison between "Those who save and those who consume". Most people don't save because they can't: their incomes are so low they spend everything they get just to get by.

    And there's the real problem dragging at the economy: people making barely enough to get by aren't contributing much in terms of spending -- which is what makes the economy go -- because they have no actual discretionary income. So keeping wages low is not just bad for the people paid them, but for the economy as a whole.

    And that's bad for the wealthy: their wealth will grow more by paying people more. If they were really looking out for their own interests, they wouldn't bust unions by using law to limit people's rights, they'd make unions irrelevant by offering better wages, better benefits, and better working conditions than the unions have asked (in fact I worked at a store where a union came along and tried to organize us, but the reality was that the owner provided us with better on every point than what the union did -- he even had an arbitration process using an outside arbitrator! so we pretty much laughed the union reps back to their offices).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #166
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    How exactly do you explain corporate profits going up and worker pay going down?
    Wait, so you think that is NOT true?
    It's true, but the relationship for any give corporation is not necessarily causative. Just as one example, consider if the price of a rare earth element the corporation made use of suddenly plunged, but the corporation took its sweet time about passing on the savings: their profits would go up significantly without any change at all to worker pay.

    Applying supply and demand, which is in a way what the worker wage <-> corporate profit equation is dealing with, is not a simplistic or linear process except in textbooks. If one wants to know why a corporation has decreased the price of something -- in this case, labor -- you have to first look at ALL the things the corporation demands for making its products, and check their supply flow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Insuficient data. The statement is much too general.



    That's not what I said. I said he used to show an understanding. The word smart was neither used nor implied.
    I still show an understanding. I just don't treat capitalists as demigods.
    Last edited by opinterph; December 13th, 2012 at 07:23 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #167
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Maybe reading the article?

    So when tax rates were 71%, people at the top don't report as much of what they make as income. When we actually lower rates, people have an incentive to report more of what they make as income. The numbers went up in part because of changes to the tax laws, not because rich (and the top 20% bracket starts at about a paltry $80K per year) are getting unconscionable increases in income at the expense of the poor. The myth is busted.
    This article is a joke, Jack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Your version of capitalism is predatory, plunderer capitalism which is just a new form of serfdom.

    I know how capitalism works. I also know when it is working as a mechanism of greed that treats the workers as cattle. That variety, which the Republican party drools over, is the reason that unions are more necessary than before.
    It's also crybaby capitalism. It's capitalism that believes in the free market--- until one can use the federal government, no bid contract awarding, regulatory changes or whatever else to procure monopolies. It's capitalism that believes in survival of the fittest in the free market--- as a rule for others, but when YOUR business is in trouble, it's time for bailouts or you're Too Big To Fail. Also corporate welfare and chapter 11.

    When all these absolute pinnacles of capitalist ideology like the banks and the big manufacturers were in trouble what'd they do? Come to the government with their hats in their hand and ask for handouts. People who in any other discussion would say if you don't have health coverage from your job, go get a third job or start a health savings account and stop being so irresponsible. It's pretty sickening.

  18. #168
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by thewiz View Post
    Henry Ford, who wasn't exactly a lover of employees, understood capitalism: people have to have enough money to buy your product and, when they do, you make more money from more product sales. Walmart has lamented that its sales have slowed and same-store sales are not increasing at the rate it to which it grew accustomed.

    If one studies the emerging market areas of the world -- Mexico, China, and beyond -- you see what the lack of a middle class does. The worker labors for hours yet cannot afford to buy the product produced. As a result, the work is exported but with middle classes squeezed in mature markets, the enthusiasm and ability to purchase is also diminished. I was just in a meeting with Mexican officials who are discouraged because U.S. companies once flocked to that country to set up shop. After giving them practically anything they wanted, they have now abandoned the properties (often with contamination) and moved to China. I will bet as that market grows, they'll again move to even lower standard of living areas. But those at the top continue to pull in the wealth and the separation between haves and have-nots grows. Our capitalistic system is beginning to remind me more of a communist system found in the Soviet Union; those with the capability to influence government benefited while the average person nearly starved until the system collapsed.
    That's a good measure of fair pay for most products: if the worker can't afford what they're making, there's a problem. But it isn't universal: I knew some people in Salk Lake City who were making cruise missiles; there's no way they could have been paid enough that they could buy one. Similarly, people who work on custom Rolls autos are in the same situation.

    But Ford knew something else today's tycoons don't care about: it's better for the local community and for the whole country if the executives aren't bleeding off vast amounts of the company revenues for themselves: he settled for earning four times what his workers did -- today's execs can't even settle for fifty times what the workers make.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #169
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    What you are overlooking is that all the lagal burdens on employers count as the cost of labor to the company. They have be be considered part of the wages they are getting.. So if a woman and her lawyer collect 5 million because one employee pats a female employee on the butt, that is part of the wages the employees collect. Employees, unions and union bosses constitently work for "benefits" like that, without realizing that it is part of their wages i.e. cost of labor to the company. US employees are by far the highest paid in the world, but much is in the form of all the "benefits", like lawsuits, affirmative action, maternity leave etc etc..
    Now that's the sourest bullshit I've heard in a long time. Company expenses are not part of employee compensation.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Oh and by the way, we haven't discussed how well behaved the union thugs were at the Michigan protests. Let's see how the left peacefully protests.

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=u_F3o...%3Du_F3oev06i0

    Let's see, they assaulted the gentleman in the black leather jacket and purposely collapsed a tent that had people inside.
    Worthless claim, because that link doesn't go anywhere.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Oh, puh-leeze. Even the most jaded lefty doesn't believe that drivel.
    "Plunder capitalism" indeed. That's so funny my laughter might even make my headache go away.
    Any unearned income is plunder -- the income belongs to those who actually do the work. When that income is significantly due to government rigging the system in favor of that unearned income, it's definitely plunder.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    So "patted" women is as far as it ever goes? No case of actual rape?
    He's overlooking the fact that no emplower is liable for the actions of a mere employee unless that employee is officially acting for the company. If one worker molests another, the issue is either between the two, or if there's a union, an internal union affair.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It's also crybaby capitalism. It's capitalism that believes in the free market--- until one can use the federal government, no bid contract awarding, regulatory changes or whatever else to procure monopolies. It's capitalism that believes in survival of the fittest in the free market--- as a rule for others, but when YOUR business is in trouble, it's time for bailouts or you're Too Big To Fail. Also corporate welfare and chapter 11.

    When all these absolute pinnacles of capitalist ideology like the banks and the big manufacturers were in trouble what'd they do? Come to the government with their hats in their hand and ask for handouts. People who in any other discussion would say if you don't have health coverage from your job, go get a third job or start a health savings account and stop being so irresponsible. It's pretty sickening.
    It's because our corporations no longer practice free-market capitalism, they're into corporatism.

    Remember that corporatism isn't far from fascism.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    He's overlooking the fact that no emplower is liable for the actions of a mere employee unless that employee is officially acting for the company. If one worker molests another, the issue is either between the two, or if there's a union, an internal union affair.
    Employers are liable for the actions of their employees if they have knowledge of prior abuse, if they fail to exercise due diligence in pre-screening their employee recruits, if they fail to take reasonable steps to prevent abuse, or if they fail to take action when abuse is properly reported to them. In some cases the liability can be personal to managers or other persons in positions of responsibility.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Any unearned income is plunder -- the income belongs to those who actually do the work. When that income is significantly due to government rigging the system in favor of that unearned income, it's definitely plunder.
    NO. The income belongs to the investors who put up the money and take the risk. The people who actually do the work have agreed to perform specific tasks for specific pay and that is their reward.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    back to the real issue .....

    as Rich Lowry capably points out - a good read people - open your minds to writers outside of your comfy zone

    this is a particularly galling sitch for the progressives as Michigan is the birth home of unionization - michigan and unionization are connected in a big way

    when unions began there it was just

    today, unions are being undone organically by economic realities

    neighboring Indiana, a right to work state - is booming - adding 43k jobs while michigan has lost 7k

    michigan has a big pool of experienced autoworkers yet no car co. would come

    election day 2008 saw michigan go for pres. obama but did u know that more than the # of voters who went democrat voted "no" to an amendment that would ban right to work

    interesting

    did u know that in wisconsin, after gov. walker ended mandatory dues for public sector unions, the AFSCME lost 1/2 its members

    HALF !!

    isn't choice good ??

    Unionization rates - 1983 20%; 2011 12%

    the times they are a changing

    Happy holidays

    is this thread about gay marriage?

    http://www.nationalreview.com/author/56473/latest#

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    One of the substantial differences in our manufacturing base today is the rise of venture capitalism. In days gone by -- even the Carnegies and Rockafellers knew that you worked, built a company up and profited. I worked with many people who started industries from a garage and became multimillionaires. They involved themselves in the community; they encouraged their employees to be active in the community; they were philanthropic. Look at the VanAndels and DeVos' who own Amway -- they contributed many millions and continue to do so. Take a look at downtown Grand Rapids and what their contributions have created.

    Today, with venture capitalism, you buy a company and extract all the value then either dump the company or close it through bankruptcy. The value is extracted rather than invested; it is frightening.

  28. #178

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Any unearned income is plunder -- the income belongs to those who actually do the work. When that income is significantly due to government rigging the system in favor of that unearned income, it's definitely plunder.
    Pure Marxism. Marx's labor theory of value. If the investors and management are entitled to nothing why would they provide jobs. Why would employees work for someone else who contributes nothing. You communism doesn't work.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Employers are liable for the actions of their employees if they have knowledge of prior abuse, if they fail to exercise due diligence in pre-screening their employee recruits, if they fail to take reasonable steps to prevent abuse, or if they fail to take action when abuse is properly reported to them. In some cases the liability can be personal to managers or other persons in positions of responsibility.
    True!

    And would it not be fair to say that some corporations factor in the legal costs, and justifications as a liability for not paying them more?

    In the company that I work for, part of my "executive benefits," along with Medical, Dental, and Eye Care, is "legal insurance" in case there's ever a lawsuit brought against as an employee of my company.

    I read the fine print.

    Which means that if my Sister and Brother In Law decide to file a suit against me to contest our parent's will, for $7 a month, I already have a legal team to defend me.

    That protection alone is worth more than "dental."

    But on a more serious note, "hourly employees" are also representatives of the Corporations that they work for.

    Which, by the very fact that those corporations hired them, therefore make the Corporations liable for that employee's actions.

    And the Company that I work for insists that those employees acknowledge, and sign a disclaimer should they ever be personally charged with violations of local, state, or Federal Laws, and that they are not only willing to comply, but as their Manager I'm responsible if I didn't take them through those steps on the day that they are HIRED to work for the company.

    Which then makes me personally liable.

    That's what "right to work" laws mean.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  30. #180

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Typically the woman claims that she was so upset she couldn't work, so it becomes " constructive discharge"and employment discrimination in violation of Federal law.
    But that was only one example of all the burdens imposed upon employers which go to make up cost of labor from the point of view of the Employer. When the unions and bosses require the Democrats to impose the burdens, the employees do not realize that these burdens are in lieu of higher wages.

  31. #181

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Now that's the sourest bullshit I've heard in a long time. Company expenses are not part of employee compensation.
    From the point of view of the employer they are. Look at it this way: when the employer decides what price to charge, it must compute his cost, which includes labor, which includes lawsuits by employers, social security, affirmative action hires, token employees, unemployment insurance, workers compensation insurance, health care (now including kids up to age 25) maternity leave, premium for union members, on an on and on. So then when it decides how much it can afford to pay in salaries, all these things reduce the amount it can pay in salaries.
    If the foreign competition can charge less without some of these burdens the company is in trouble.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    So people weren't working three jobs before President Obama was elected? Need I remind you that that corporate executive who used to run your state, and brought his Texas anti-tax, anti-regulation, anti-union, pro-corporation, pro-rich theory of governing to the federal government wrecked the economy and left President Obama with a country headed in the direction of a second "Great Depression." You call that living in reality? The truth is that you conservative Republicans live in an altered state of reality in which facts, science and mathematics cease to exist, a reality based on Rush Limbaugh talking points. Unbelievable.
    A. I'm not a conservative Republican.
    B. Bush didn't "wreck" the economy (your Kool-Aid drinking notwithstanding).
    Wendy Davis: Fraud, User, Idiot

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by NCAA Umpire View Post
    Bush didn't "wreck" the economy (your Kool-Aid drinking notwithstanding).
    Indeed. Depressions are great things, if you happen to be phenomenally wealthy.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    You can be as hard pressed as you wish. The fact remains that I'm not a conservative Republican. Nor am I a liberal Democrat.
    Wendy Davis: Fraud, User, Idiot

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    It always amuses me when hardcore conservatives claim they aren't ones, as if that changes who their viewpoints match with. We have more than one poster of that type here.

    And Bush wrecked the economy.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  36. #186

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by NCAA Umpire View Post
    A. I'm not a conservative Republican.
    B. Bush didn't "wreck" the economy (your Kool-Aid drinking notwithstanding).
    I guess you would be a conservative Republican if they didn't oppose same-sex marriage.

    Bush (and his policies and administration) didn't wreck the economy? Who did? Oh, I know. Barney Frank and Fannie Mae. Sorry, I didn't get the Republican talking points memo and and forgot to watch Sean Hannity.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    .

    And Bush wrecked the economy.
    Bush did many things he shouldn't have, but he can't take responsibility for wrecking the economy. That lies mostly with liberal programs that resulted in mortgages being taken out by people who weren't capable of paying them. Bush tried (somewhat lamely) to reign in Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae but was stopped mostly by slobbering Barney Frank whose power on that particular congressional committee was absolute.

    When banks are clamoring to lend up to 110% (and in cases, more) of the value your home, there's something very wrong. That, at least, has stopped. I hope.

  38. #188
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    ADD is the thingy

    Right to work ...... In Michigan

    Half the states in the country

    Now Michigan

    It's a trend

    Much like gay marriage support

    "Bush wrecked the economy"

    Bush attacked the Benghazi consulate

    Bush killed Kennedy

    Bush drove his car off the Chappaquidick bridge and left a girl to die

    Bush told Rosa parks to get her ass up on THE BUS

    Gonna start a new thread

    "What bush did"

    TGIF

  39. #189

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Bush did many things he shouldn't have, but he can't take responsibility for wrecking the economy. That lies mostly with liberal programs that resulted in mortgages being taken out by people who weren't capable of paying them. Bush tried (somewhat lamely) to reign in Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae but was stopped mostly by slobbering Barney Frank whose power on that particular congressional committee was absolute.

    When banks are clamoring to lend up to 110% (and in cases, more) of the value your home, there's something very wrong. That, at least, has stopped. I hope.
    The world according to Republicans. Did liberals also wreck the economy by failing to teach creationism in public schools? If only public school students had learned that the earth is 6,000 years old, that people rode dinosaurs and to beware of the homosexual agenda, the economy under Bush would have been rock solid.

  40. #190

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    not sure what creationism has to do with the price of tea in china.... but yes, the Clintonian idea that everyone should be a home-owner and laxed lending standards (which Bush ran with and gets no credit for trying to prevent) had a lot to do with the mortgage meltdown.
    You're right Loki. Bush was warned about keeping Clinton's plan of everyone owning a house .... the result .... disaster.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The world according to Republicans. Did liberals also wreck the economy by failing to teach creationism in public schools? If only public school students had learned that the earth is 6,000 years old, that people rode dinosaurs and to beware of the homosexual agenda, the economy under Bush would have been rock solid.
    All of which have nothing to do with anything.
    You're dissembling, and it shows.

  42. #192
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by NCAA Umpire View Post
    A. I'm not a conservative Republican.
    B. Bush didn't "wreck" the economy (your Kool-Aid drinking notwithstanding).
    He personally didn't shove his finger out and knock the economy over per se, correct.

    However the long running policy of deregulation and unenforced oversight in the name of a free market ideology embraced by the Republicans for decades, and which George W Bush was most assuredly a big part of, was.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Bush did many things he shouldn't have, but he can't take responsibility for wrecking the economy. That lies mostly with liberal programs that resulted in mortgages being taken out by people who weren't capable of paying them. Bush tried (somewhat lamely) to reign in Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae but was stopped mostly by slobbering Barney Frank whose power on that particular congressional committee was absolute.

    When banks are clamoring to lend up to 110% (and in cases, more) of the value your home, there's something very wrong. That, at least, has stopped. I hope.
    Right of course, private homeloan subprime lenders who high pressure quick-signatured loans without income verification knowing full well they wouldn't be participating in any aspect of collecting on the loan, and selling it to Wall Street and made huge money off the signing and closing fees before turning the loan over were all ordered to do so by liberal policies. Likewise the Wall Street entities who mixed these knowingly uncollectible loans into Triple-A rated homeloan investments and spread them all over the world in investment packages were also forced to do so by liberal policies.

    I'll buy the pass to the pool on the roof, while we're at it.

  44. #194

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    He personally didn't shove his finger out and knock the economy over per se, correct.

    However the long running policy of deregulation and unenforced oversight in the name of a free market ideology embraced by the Republicans for decades, and which George W Bush was most assuredly a big part of, was.
    How was he part of it?

  45. #195
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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    How was he part of it?
    You're kidding right? He supported a ton of deregulation.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It always amuses me when hardcore conservatives claim they aren't ones, as if that changes who their viewpoints match with. We have more than one poster of that type here.

    And Bush wrecked the economy.
    It always amazes me when liberals call someone a conservative Republican just because said person dares to disagree with their warped view of society and reality, or just because said person opposes what a left-wing president does. As the saying goes, "One should never assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me."
    Wendy Davis: Fraud, User, Idiot

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I guess you would be a conservative Republican if they didn't oppose same-sex marriage.
    Except that I don't oppose it. I don't care either way. I also oppose laws that ban flag burning. I oppose laws that would bar Rev. Phelps and his nutjobs from protesting at military funerals with their "God hates fags" signs. I can't find many conservative Republicans who hold those positions. But that's OK. If some ignoramuses here want to think I'm a conservative Republican, there are worse things I could be called.
    Wendy Davis: Fraud, User, Idiot

  48. #198

    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Bush did many things he shouldn't have, but he can't take responsibility for wrecking the economy. That lies mostly with liberal programs that resulted in mortgages being taken out by people who weren't capable of paying them. Bush tried (somewhat lamely) to reign in Freddie Mae and Fannie Mae but was stopped mostly by slobbering Barney Frank whose power on that particular congressional committee was absolute.

    When banks are clamoring to lend up to 110% (and in cases, more) of the value your home, there's something very wrong. That, at least, has stopped. I hope.

    Erm... the financial crisis was caused by the mispricing of risk in a broken and deregulated market.

    There's a lot of blame to share:

    Alan Greenspan, chairman US Federal Reserve 1987-2006
    A disciple of libertarian icon Ayn Rand, Greenspan became chairman of the Fed just in time to save the global economy from the 1987 stock market crash from becoming a full-blown disaster. He went on preside over the boom years of the 90s and lead the US economy through the aftermath of the September 11 attacks and was widely referred to as an "oracle" and "the maestro".

    But Greenspan's super-low interest rates and consistent opposition to regulation of the multitrillion-dollar derivatives market are now widely blamed for causing the credit crisis. Under Greenspan's tenure the derivatives market went from barely registering to a $500 trillion industry, despite billionaire investor Warren Buffett warning that they were "financial weapons of mass destruction".

    His rock-bottom rates encouraged Americans to load up on debt to buy homes, even when they had no savings, no income and no job prospects.

    These so-called sub-prime borrowers were the cannon fodder for the biggest boom-bust in US history. The housing collapse brought the global economy to its knees.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...heart-meltdown

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Right of course, private homeloan subprime lenders who high pressure quick-signatured loans without income verification knowing full well they wouldn't be participating in any aspect of collecting on the loan, and selling it to Wall Street and made huge money off the signing and closing fees before turning the loan over were all ordered to do so by liberal policies. Likewise the Wall Street entities who mixed these knowingly uncollectible loans into Triple-A rated homeloan investments and spread them all over the world in investment packages were also forced to do so by liberal policies.

    I'll buy the pass to the pool on the roof, while we're at it.
    Let's not overlook the fact that Federal bureaucrats were pushing banks to lend money in certain areas - pushing hard, complete with threats.

    There's so much blame to go around, and the roots of the crisis go back at least to Jimmy Carter.

    In any case, it was Bush's economy only in the sense that he was POTUS at the time.

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    Re: Michigan becomes 24th right-to-work state

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Let's not overlook the fact that Federal bureaucrats were pushing banks to lend money in certain areas - pushing hard, complete with threats.

    There's so much blame to go around, and the roots of the crisis go back at least to Jimmy Carter.

    In any case, it was Bush's economy only in the sense that he was POTUS at the time.
    Well unfortunately I worked in an accounting office throughout the entire debacle and I saw the ENDLESS e-mails and faxes of requests coming in from CountryWide and other agencies asking us to simply verify that we prepared a tax return for x person-- no income verification--- so that they could close their homeloan.

    Over 90% of these people were middle or upper middle class white people buying investment properties with dollar signs in their eyes knowing full well they couldn't afford the mortgage long term and weren't planning to, they were planning on dumping it back off in 6 months when the house had gone up $200,000 in value.

    Don't give me this absolute bullcrap that the housing crisis was poor first-time black homeowners getting unreal loans for $70,000 houses in economically depressed areas.

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