What is the worst book you were forced to read in high school?

[belamo]

I reckon you have to watch AND read Shakespeare. You need to watch it to appreciate the drama and understand the plot. But you also need to read it at leisure to appreciate his lengthy poetical discursions.

(Shakespeare's Hamlet runs over four hours but Harold Pinter's version of the same play would be ninety minutes. )

The drama and the plot derive from the piece itself: it is such a dim-witted distinction... it is not duncian, it is not fallacious, it simply does not make sense. The problem is that people are used to think of reading precisely as something silent and to be done with, as you say, "leisure", a concept of reading which, as a mainstream practice, hardly has two centuries, and very much is limited to the Western world.
A complete performance of ONE single play of Kalidasa would be longer than anything we have ever had in the Western world... so what.

[Kulindahr]

Yes I read it: after posting what you quoted ... and it still DOES apply ... wholly

I doubt you read the thread -- the real reason he wrote that way has already been given. I presume he wrote to the best of his ability, and tried to appeal to the subscribers, but the real reason for his style is that he was getting paid by the word.

[Kulindahr]

So a deaf person with a good sight "gets" Shakespeare as good or even better than anyone? As I always say, barbarity gains power from the inside.
Under those guiding principles, no wonder even (in factly, mostly) the 'experts" are at a loss in deciding what is Shakespeare and what is not, like those who can not tell W.A. Mozart from Leopold Mozart unless there is an old piece of writing stating "it was Wolfgang, idiots!".

This response just shows you as the arrogant ass people tell me you are. This is like saying that money is no good for spending because someone could burn it. You can use that cheap, juvenile escape on anything.

[Kulindahr]

I reckon you have to watch AND read Shakespeare. You need to watch it to appreciate the drama and understand the plot. But you also need to read it at leisure to appreciate his lengthy poetical discursions.

(Shakespeare's Hamlet runs over four hours but Harold Pinter's version of the same play would be ninety minutes. )

His "lengthy poetical discursions" are best appreciated when spoken by someone who knows how to do it. The beauty of those lies in the way they roll from the tongue.

[JohannBessler]

Shakespeare lived long before the Victoria Era how any one could think that listening to a play by him sounded Victorian is absurd. The Victorian Era is names after Queen Victoria who ruled for 64 years and died in the early 1900's. That's why during the U.S. Revolution England was in The Georgian Era George the 3rd see how it works

I'm chuckling at some of these choices, because I am reading The Spy, by James Fenimore Cooper, right now, for pleasure.

Trivia: did you know you can tell how popular a phrase was, and when, by ngram.com? By this measure, the term "to the morrow" peaked in the 1870s.

To answer the OP: I hated the Histories of Herodutus. Oh. My. God. That's all I have to say about it.

[JohannBessler]

^ You're right.

People in the nineteenth century had much slower lives and so they were happier to devote more time to a book.

I've noticed recently that I'm much less inclined to read stuff that I was enjoying in my teenage years.

You are absolutely correct.

With the speed my life is right now, I don't even have time to read my favorite zombie novels that I bought. And these novels were written in minimalist style.

Also, novels were meant to be read aloud, in groups of people. (Remember that scene in Gone With The Wind?)

[belamo]

I doubt you read the thread -- the real reason he wrote that way has already been given. I presume he wrote to the best of his ability, and tried to appeal to the subscribers, but the real reason for his style is that he was getting paid by the word.

And in what way all that tells something new or is in anything different from what I have said

[belamo]

This response just shows you as the arrogant ass people tell me you are. This is like saying that money is no good for spending because someone could burn it. You can use that cheap, juvenile escape on anything.

My post only pointed at the fundamental problem with the appreciation of the arts: they are considered only by the way they are perceived and the effect they produce, like in your case, Shakespeare's rhythm depends on how the actors move on the stage, not on the flow of the speech directing them to speak and move, when they must, in a particular rhythm.

What you perceive as arrogance is my weariness of authorities like Bloom using the name of Shakespeare and his works to talk about themselves and their impressions under the appearance of a technical and specialized ability to discern more than the average citizen, and all the rest following in that direction like a herd, from which only a "juvenile" would dare to try to be set himself apart pointing at a naked emperor.

As for money, money is not just a material piece of paper susceptible of being burnt, but a consensual value derived from definite social and economical relationships in a particular equilibrium. So you can burn what paper money you please, or throw away as many coins as you want for future geeks to collect and exhibit, as long as you have something mirroring the power that the value associated to those items allows you to have in the society that gives that value to them.

[belamo]

To answer the OP: I hated the Histories of Herodutus. Oh. My. God. That's all I have to say about it.

Again, you either did not actually read Herodotus' work in his simple and easily flowing style, but something like Macaulay's translation, or you have a problem preventing you to appreciate his archaic Ionic discourse. Can you imagine how a Shakesperian sonnet sounds translated into Chinese?

[belamo]

His "lengthy poetical discursions" are best appreciated when spoken by someone who knows how to do it. The beauty of those lies in the way they roll from the tongue.

So you admit appreciating Shakespeare is not fundamentally about watching how actors move their limbs

[Kulindahr]

To answer the OP: I hated the Histories of Herodutus. Oh. My. God. That's all I have to say about it.

They're no better in the original.

Xenephon, OTOH, is better in the original -- he knows how to tell a good story.


But I can't believe you went to a high school that offered up Herodotus!

[Kulindahr]

Can you imagine how a Shakesperian sonnet sounds translated into Chinese?

No, but I've heard it done with a thick Mexican accent.

Thank God we'd stopped doing the English to Greek exercises before we got to the point where we would have had to turn English classics into Attic Greek....

[Kulindahr]

Note of interest: The way that fundamentalists read the Bible is as though it was written in narrative history -- something not used before Herodotus.

Implicit in the stupidity is the fact that no piece of literature can be grasped unless read as what it is.

[MikeyLove]

The absolute worst book was Charles Dickens "Great Expectations"! BORING!

[belamo]

Note of interest: The way that fundamentalists read the Bible is as though it was written in narrative history -- something not used before Herodotus.

Implicit in the stupidity is the fact that no piece of literature can be grasped unless read as what it is.

The stupid fact is taking for granted that the problem is precisely to agree on that "what it IS".

[belamo]

They're no better in the original.

Xenephon, OTOH, is better in the original -- he knows how to tell a good story.

That is just one opinion, yours. An arbitrary one

No, but I've heard it done with a thick Mexican accent.

Thank God we'd stopped doing the English to Greek exercises before we got to the point where we would have had to turn English classics into Attic Greek....

A mere accent in a language poses different problems than a translation to a different language. But that question was adressed to Bess Ler: my question to you was in #160
Following your logic, a Shakespearean sonnet, in its original English form or translated into Chinese is nothing until it is somehow ("lyrically" rather than "dramatically") staged.

[pat grimshaw]

The stupid fact is taking for granted that the problem is precisely to agree on that "what it IS".

Yes! Literature is NOT geometry.

There aren't correct answers and incorrect reactions as to the writer's intention. The Dickens which bores or confuses me now may be my perfect companion in my dotage. I will have an understanding of life's foibles and the "spare time" to appreciate it.

[JohannBessler]

But I can't believe you went to a high school that offered up Herodotus!

haha Some of the area high schools offered 2nd Year Calculus.

We lived near nuclear facilities.

That being said, I had to read the Histories of Herodotus in a Pre-college situation, not as part of the regular curriculum.

[Kulindahr]

There aren't correct answers and incorrect reactions as to the writer's intention. The Dickens which bores or confuses me now may be my perfect companion in my dotage. I will have an understanding of life's foibles and the "spare time" to appreciate it.

Sure there are. Shakespeare, for example, wrote for the stage. That means his intent was that his works be done on the stage, where people could see them.

And for those with English difficulties, that's the common usage as in "go to see a play" -- if someone said he was going to see "JUB On the Boards" on Broadway, one would not assume he was going to put in earplugs for the duration of the event.

[Kulindahr]

haha Some of the area high schools offered 2nd Year Calculus.

We lived near nuclear facilities.

That being said, I had to read the Histories of Herodotus in a Pre-college situation, not as part of the regular curriculum.

Ah -- so they checked to see if you could handle college by inflicting that on you.

Actually, Herodotus isn't so bad if you know ahead of time that he treated everything in history as basically of equal value, and that he delighted in digression -- it's only if you expect him to tell history the way we do that he's a dud; think of him as a story-teller exploring some unknown country, and it's a different story.

[belamo]

Ah -- so they checked to see if you could handle college by inflicting that on you.

Actually, Herodotus isn't so bad if you know ahead of time that he treated everything in history as basically of equal value, and that he delighted in digression -- it's only if you expect him to tell history the way we do that he's a dud; think of him as a story-teller exploring some unknown country, and it's a different story.

I wonder what has his scientific value as a historian got to do with his style of writing deplored above by Bess.

[ixthrock]

actually, I struggled with the whitman; i still haven't digested much of it, and I'm a queer hippy myself.

I was surprised by how light and easy a read Crime and Punishment was.

I like Shakespeare. I find it best in large print and a column beside the text containing footnotes. I just can't stand Kenneth Branaugh.

I begrudgingly admire the zinger of Catcher in the Rye - how it captured the angst and disappointment of a younger generation, and captured it in convincing monologue. And Salinger - kind of an asshole - brags that he's going to write a bestseller, and, when he does, seems to resent the world for being so fucking fascinated with it and him. I like the Glass kids a lot more than holden caufield.

[JohannBessler]

Ah -- so they checked to see if you could handle college by inflicting that on you.

Actually, Herodotus isn't so bad if you know ahead of time that he treated everything in history as basically of equal value, and that he delighted in digression -- it's only if you expect him to tell history the way we do that he's a dud; think of him as a story-teller exploring some unknown country, and it's a different story.

I found it odd that the other four books they gave us to read were quite entertaining.

That being said, I cannot say I agree with you about HoH. All I can say is "opaque", "turgid", "borne patiently only by the deceased".

[pat grimshaw]

This response just shows you as the arrogant ass …

I say that Belamo has a right to be arrogant. He is massively erudite.

He and his fellow European JUBbers are part of a culture which makes ours on our side of the world look very puny and pathetic in comparison.

[JohannBessler]

Nobody has the right to be arrogant.^ You're excusing bad behavior.

While I appreciate Belamo's erudition, most of the time I keep him on ignore because he's mean and nasty 24/7. Who wants to be around a rattlesnake?

[pat grimshaw]

^ yes, he does snap occasionally but he still gives a lot of good guidance (I don't have the time to explore all that deep culture). And didn't your mother ever say that it's occasionally necessary to "be cruel to be kind"?

[JohannBessler]

^Absolutely not.

We were always taught to "Do unto others as ye should have them do unto you." A big part of this is not hurting others' feelings, Pat.

They also taught us not to discuss politics in public--sage advice that I should heed more often, but nooo.... I never learn, not Johann...and I hate myself for it.

[belamo]

Nobody has the right to be arrogant.^ You're excusing bad behavior.

While I appreciate belamo's erudition, most of the time I keep him on ignore because he's mean and nasty 24/7. Who wants to be around a rattlesnake?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KyOiRhwe27...Serpientes.jpg

http://www.jaunted.com/files/admin/crochunterrip.png

[belamo]

We were always taught to "Do unto others as ye should have them do unto you."

How does that apply to sadomasochists?

[belamo]

They also taught us not to discuss politics in public-.

Not to do it while at table: if we do not discuss in public, be it politics or anything else, we are ending up discussing it with ourselves in silence, and in fear of being punished by social and political authorities.

[belamo]

We were always taught to "Do unto others as ye should have them do unto you." A big part of this is not hurting others' feelings, Pat.

Do pride and stupidity also qualify as tender feelings not to be hurt?

[belamo]

I say that belamo has a right to be arrogant. He is massively erudite.

So YOU too, after all, consider me a humongous chunk of idiocy.
If I had anything like real erudition, I would not have the need, let alone the time, to post on this MB.
At most I might qualify as some diffuse sort of geek. You are free to determine my topic of geekiness.

He and his fellow European JUBbers are part of a culture which makes ours on our side of the world look very puny and pathetic in comparison.

"Your" side of the world is just a division of and from "our" puny and pathetic, senescent side of the world.

[Kulindahr]

I say that Belamo has a right to be arrogant. He is massively erudite.

He and his fellow European JUBbers are part of a culture which makes ours on our side of the world look very puny and pathetic in comparison.

He doesn't belong in the company of our other European JUBbers -- he's arrogant, nasty, rude, snide, and over-impressed with himself.

They aren't.

[belamo]

He doesn't belong in the company of our other European JUBbers -- he's arrogant, nasty, rude, snide, and over-impressed with himself.

They aren't.

They may be truly European. As I have said several times before, not only I may be too European to be a true American, but then I am likewise too American to be a real European.

That "over-impressed" reproach reflects only your own impression: if I were so satisfied with myself, I would not stoop to quote other people's posts and throw mine to them, would I? But you seem so pissed to poke about my stuff that your only comfort after suffering the itch it generates in people entities like you, seems to be the belief that I am a conceited jerk. Some sort of reverse psychology, maybe...

[chrisrobin]

I like Shakespeare. I find it best in large print and a column beside the text containing footnotes. I just can't stand Kenneth Branaugh.

I like Shakespeare too. You may want to consider some of the older flicks: Henry V, Richard III, Hamlet starring Sir Lawrence Olivier. "The play's the thing." - Hamlet

[belamo]

Oh, how could I have forgotten to mention it!! The Spanish translation of Durrell's Picnic and Suchlike Pandemonium is responsible for first pushing me (during my first year of high school, I think) into physically destroying books that I did not consider worthy of Posterity. Only the last tale, The Entrance, did I find somewhat amusing.

[oakpope]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KyOiRhwe27...Serpientes.jpg

http://www.jaunted.com/files/admin/crochunterrip.png

Especially to Belamo : 'Pour qui sont ces serpents qui sifflent sur ma tête ?'

Oh snap, I'll give the rest, just because

'Quoi ? Pyrrhus, je te rencontre encore ?
Trouverai-je partout un rival que j’abhorre ?
Percé de tant de coups, comment t’es-tu sauvé ?
Tiens, tiens, voilà le coup que je t’ai réservé.
Mais que vois-je ? À mes yeux Hermione l’embrasse ?
Elle vient l’arracher au coup qui le menace ?
Dieux ! quels affreux regards elle jette sur moi !
Quels démons, quels serpents traîne-t-elle après soi ?
Hé bien ! filles d’enfer, vos mains sont-elles prêtes ?
Pour qui sont ces serpents qui sifflent sur vos têtes ?
À qui destinez-vous l’appareil qui vous suit ?
Venez-vous m’enlever dans l’éternelle nuit ?
Venez, à vos fureurs Oreste s’abandonne.
Mais non, retirez-vous, laissez faire Hermione :
L’ingrate mieux que vous saura me déchirer ;
Et je lui porte enfin mon cœur à dévorer.'

Best to hear from a French thespian

[belamo]

Especially to belamo : 'Pour qui sont ces serpents qui sifflent sur ma tête ?'

Oh snap, I'll give the rest, just because

'Quoi ? Pyrrhus, je te rencontre encore ?
Trouverai-je partout un rival que j’abhorre ?
Percé de tant de coups, comment t’es-tu sauvé ?
Tiens, tiens, voilà le coup que je t’ai réservé.
Mais que vois-je ? À mes yeux Hermione l’embrasse ?
Elle vient l’arracher au coup qui le menace ?
Dieux ! quels affreux regards elle jette sur moi !
Quels démons, quels serpents traîne-t-elle après soi ?
Hé bien ! filles d’enfer, vos mains sont-elles prêtes ?
Pour qui sont ces serpents qui sifflent sur vos têtes ?
À qui destinez-vous l’appareil qui vous suit ?
Venez-vous m’enlever dans l’éternelle nuit ?
Venez, à vos fureurs Oreste s’abandonne.
Mais non, retirez-vous, laissez faire Hermione :
L’ingrate mieux que vous saura me déchirer ;
Et je lui porte enfin mon cœur à dévorer.'

Best to hear from a French thespian

Où est donc mon Pylade?

[oakpope]

Où est donc mon Pylade?

Busy marrying you sister

[belamo]

Busy marrying you sister

Marrying me, or the sister/s I do not have? Was I supposed to be an Orestes-like belamo, or directly Orestes himself?

So you are a member of the coterie of Racine-haters?

[oakpope]

Marrying me, or the sister/s I do not have? Was I supposed to be an Orestes-like belamo, or directly Orestes himself?

So you are a member of the coterie of Racine-haters?

Oreste gave his sister to Pylade.

I like Racine, especially Andromaque, for she was the one wanting to die and the one not dying eventually

[belamo]

Oreste gave his sister to Pylade.

You are not answering my question by sharing something we all know