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  1. #51
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    I've been way out of my league tonight. But isn't my disagreement against Hamas and not about the other.
    Hey, I haven't seen any answer about who else is there. Sorry, I confuse tonight.
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  2. #52
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Educate me. Is there another entity other than Hamas in the Palestinian arena?

    Yes; absolutely. Fatah - the organisation formerly headed by Yasser Arafat, and currently headed by Mahmoud Abbas, the President of Palestine. Hamas merely won parliamentary elections and then basically conducted a civil war to control Gaza without consulting the legal President. Fatah continues to control the West Bank and the bulk of Palestinian territory (except for Israeli colonial incursions of course).


    Partly what we have seen in the last week is Hamas trying to convince Palestinians to shoot its way to statehood (an approach which deserves to fail), and Fatah trying to convince Palestinians to negotiate and use the tools of diplomacy (an approach encouraged by the UN, obviously, and which deserves to succeed.) This doesn't suit the madman Israeli prime minister Netanyahu, who "retaliated" by ordering more colonisation of Palestine by Israeli extremist theocrats.

    I was delighted to see France and the UK recall their ambassadors to Israel to object . Something the US and Canada should have done as well.

    The best chance for peace comes from the electoral failure of Hamas and Netanyahu, with a successful showing by Abbas, and probably Tzipi Livni on the Israeli side. So hopefully they'll all have elections soon.
    Last edited by bankside; December 3rd, 2012 at 05:55 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  3. #53
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Chick-fil-a is tasty for fast food and the owner is free in the country I live in to donate to whom he wishes... just as I am free to not eat his chicken...
    Amen and more, cuz I think I need to come up to 10 characters, which I guess I passed that, huh?
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  4. #54
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Are we hating on Buddhists this week? No one sent me the memo.

    The Palestinian problem isn't about religion, or at least no JUST about religion - religion is used as a proximate cause but there are a whole lot of things both sides hate each other for that aren't about that.

    I suppose if we wanted to be fair, the actual genesis of the present situation was the original partition of Palestine, and the wholesale importation of European Jews whose only claim to Palestine was like a thousand years old. That certainly had nothing to do with Islam, and I can see how the Palestinians might get a little miffed with all these self entitled Europeans walking in like they owned the place because other Europeans turned out to be Jew hating monsters.
    OK!

    Well JUB wants me to say more!
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  5. #55
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I can't imagine a whole lot of people who would like it if after 200 years on their land in the U.S., England came over and gave it back to the Native American tribe that used to live there. Can you? lol.

    It's not really a religious conflict and the teachings of the various holy books aren't really pertinent. Take any two religious countries or cultures and put them into geopolitical conflict and they will make it religious on the flags and banners and propaganda, but that's almost never what wars are actually about.
    I can't imagine a whole lot of people who would like it if after 200 years on their land in the U.S., England came over and gave it back to the Native American tribe that used to live there.
    I got over it!
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  6. #56
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I got over it!
    The conflict between the colonial powers/colonies and Natives spanned about 3~ centuries.

    Israel's been around for well under 1.

  7. #57
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Maxpwr you kinda nail my opinion... religion in general is the base reason so many die and so many more will die. It is sad really when the basic tenant of all religions is peace....
    That's "tenet", a seriously-held belief. A "tenant" is someone residing on some premises.

    If peace really were a "tenant" of all religions, we wouldn't have any problems. Unfortunately, although it is a tenet, it is also frequently a shunned cousin.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #58
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    You're right, at it's core, it's the same purse fight that's been going on in the Middle East way back into biblical times, complete if I'm not mistaken with terrorism and acts of genocide - if you believe the bible, and one that definitely annoyed the Romans - bands of religious and ethnic cousins, squabbling over the same miserable patch of desert - enough already.

    What's going to happen - the Israelis will eventually kill or displace all the Palestinians, there will be a war, someone will nuke the crazy ayatollahs in Iran.

    Not an endorsement, just what I think is going to eventually happen.
    One thing that baffled the Romans was how some particular piece of land could be considered "holy". Too bad they didn't stamp the concept out.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #59
    Sex God Mariatenebre's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyAnger View Post
    Really so you support prison states because you have some weird view they are anti-gay. Hamas is not the only party within Palestine nor does it represent that many of the peoples political views. What is does offer is organization against an oppressive imperialist state stealing their land.
    It is not a weird view that they are anti gay. They are anti gay, they cut gay people's faces off and brutally torture them.

    Hamas does represent much of the radical Islam of the area. Further more the Israelis are not stealing their land. The land rightfully belongs to Israel. It always had a strong Jewish presence even when the Arabs and the Romans displaced much of the Jews. Further more there never was a nation called Palestine. They were always under foreign rule by such peoples as the Ottomans and Jordanians. It was only when they Jews were given back their land and the Pallys could be potentially under Jewish rule did these hateful Muslims reject. Point in fact the Pallys could have their land if they would make peace with Israel. However they do not want peace they want the destruction of all Jews and Israel. Palestine is a prison state chiefly because of Hamas and their terrorist practices and in reality they are the reason why they have no land because the Israelis must occupy it to protect themselves.

    Hamas is a sexist, homophobic, racist and violent organization which only wants genocide and blood. If you support Hamas then by nature you are a homophobe and an anti semite. This video in fact debunks much of your anti Israeli nonsense.



    If you were in Israel this is what they would do to you in the following link. I bet the Pallys thank their useful Liberals everytime they blow themselves up or cut off a gay person's face. Remember Johnny Anger this is what you support.
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Israel,_Palestine,_and_Gays
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    And I don't blame the Christian faith as a general set of teachings and beliefs for those groups though yes, they do identify as Christian and say what they're doing is for white Christians or whatever else. But by the same token I recognize that most scholarly imams who don't come from a severe backwoods or weren't handpicked by crazies because they were crazy say that Islam is not a religion that smiles upon killing people whether they drink alcohol or pray to Jesus. Despite the fact that the net is rife with people quoting obscure lines or things out of context from the Qu'ran to say Islam wholeheartedly endorses killing and violence. One of the biggest sites that used to do that finally got called out by a military translator who pointed out that the quotes they had up about cutting off heads and killing the filthy were actually (intentionally) misappropriated from the section on halal and were basically instructions on the Muslim version of the kosher preparation of meat.

    So I have a mountain of salt when it comes to people trying to say this religion > that religion because (insert instance of extremists.)
    Islam does endorse killing and violence. It advocates Jihad against all disbelievers as these verses show.
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...3-violence.htm

    I can also show many verses which are racist, sexist and homophobic.
    Last edited by Mariatenebre; December 3rd, 2012 at 08:09 PM.

  10. #60
    Booyah! Callum's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    I dunno, the problem with Israel to me (as I've voiced before on this forum) is you can't have twelve children and give candy to one and expect the other eleven to play nice. No matter how many brilliant diplomats you toss at the situation, nothing positive will become of it. I do not fault Israelis or Palestinians or their offshoots for the issue, mostly the United Nations for even creating the Jewish state to begin with without acknowledging other cultures and ethnicities in the area. Ya'll know, WW2 aftermath and all that jazz.

    The passive-aggressiveness and borderline psychopathic personalities required to be in international relations/politics allowed me to shrug off any prospective career in that arena with relative ease after my freshman year...
    blacksyringe

  11. #61
    Sex God Mariatenebre's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Cracker Barrel fires gay peple on the spot. Chik-Fil-A donates money to 2nd class citizenship efforts (or at least, did, until the hard PR spank.) The Scouts as an organization may not be a "Christian organization" but bucktons of its membership is, and boots gay people.

    I don't really see any religion except the ones that sorta stay out of the temporal stuff for the most part like the broader mainstream Buddhist sects as having much claim to a "well WE don't persecute anyone, we're better than those other evil religions that do." Because it's all coming from the same place, fundamentalist interpretations of really friggin old holy books.
    Well as an update Cracker Barrel does not fire gay people anymore although it did. Chick Fil A is still anti gay though.
    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Chick-fil-a is tasty for fast food and the owner is free in the country I live in to donate to whom he wishes... just as I am free to not eat his chicken...
    Yeah when he donates to groups that wants gays dead and finances such things as the Kill the Gays Bill in Uganda there is a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I can't imagine a whole lot of people who would like it if after 200 years on their land in the U.S., England came over and gave it back to the Native American tribe that used to live there. Can you? lol.

    It's not really a religious conflict and the teachings of the various holy books aren't really pertinent. Take any two religious countries or cultures and put them into geopolitical conflict and they will make it religious on the flags and banners and propaganda, but that's almost never what wars are actually about.
    Well first of all the Jews needed a homeland free of persecution so that is why Israel was created. Israel was also created to give discriminated Jews a seperate place from the Arab Pallys who wouldn't give them basic human dignity. In America Native peoples own land and have equal rights. Jews could never be treated equal in Palestine or in any other Muslim country.
    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Religion has become one of the banner causes, just like here in the US "Creationism," is a banner cause that isn't actually about religion - it's about solidarity and separating "us," from "them." Which is why it's pointless to argue science with a Creationist, because that is NOT the point.

    History has amply shown that Jews and Arabs can live together, so what's different now?
    Jews and Arabs can live together. However Muslims can not live with anyone without treating them like shit. Plus when they conquered the Jews they treated them like second class citizens as Dhimmis. The Muslim treatment of Dhimmis rivals even that of Apartheid and segregation.
    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    Ya know? I will have to agree with you. Palestine should be able to be a country. Israel is being, what do I want to say here?, irresponsible. They, well no, there will never be a solution to this. This has been going on for how many centuries? I do believe Palestine needs to be a country, but Israel needs to get with it and just let them! There! That made sense, didn't it?
    Sorry, a lot of Canadian Mist and water tonite.
    Israel can not let them be a country when they wish to destroy them. Palestine had made it clear that they will not be satisfied with their own country but want all of Israel destroyed.
    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    This surprises me. I haven't had a problem with you before this. I thought you came here and made your positions quite well.
    Forget my opening to this post, bourbon don't ya know. But I have to point out to you this is quite vicious. Please go back to when you came here.
    Of course my post is viscious. It describes the butchering Pallys and their Liberal apologists.
    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Yes; absolutely. Fatah - the organisation formerly headed by Yasser Arafat, and currently headed by Mahmoud Abbas, the President of Palestine. Hamas merely won parliamentary elections and then basically conducted a civil war to control Gaza without consulting the legal President. Fatah continues to control the West Bank and the bulk of Palestinian territory (except for Israeli colonial incursions of course).


    Partly what we have seen in the last week is Hamas trying to convince Palestinians to shoot its way to statehood (an approach which deserves to fail), and Fatah trying to convince Palestinians to negotiate and use the tools of diplomacy (an approach encouraged by the UN, obviously, and which deserves to succeed.) This doesn't suit the madman Israeli prime minister Netanyahu, who "retaliated" by ordering more colonisation of Palestine by Israeli extremist theocrats.

    I was delighted to see France and the UK recall their ambassadors to Israel to object . Something the US and Canada should have done as well.

    The best chance for peace comes from the electoral failure of Hamas and Netanyahu, with a successful showing by Abbas, and probably Tzipi Livni on the Israeli side. So hopefully they'll all have elections soon.
    The Israelis have full right to take the land form the so called Palestinians when they are fighting to destroy them. This is simple logic. It is France and UK with their clear Liberal stupidity and anti semitism who need to stop siding with savages.
    Quote Originally Posted by -Callum- View Post
    I dunno, the problem with Israel to me (as I've voiced before on this forum) is you can't have twelve children and give candy to one and expect the other eleven to play nice. No matter how many brilliant diplomats you toss at the situation, nothing positive will become of it. I do not fault Israelis or Palestinians or their offshoots for the issue, mostly the United Nations for even creating the Jewish state to begin with without acknowledging other cultures and ethnicities in the area. Ya'll know, WW2 aftermath and all that jazz.

    The passive-aggressiveness and borderline psychopathic personalities required to be in international relations/politics allowed me to shrug off any prospective career in that arena with relative ease after my freshman year...
    You only give candy to children that play nice. Kids that act like brats and thugs don't get any candy.

  12. #62
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's "tenet", a seriously-held belief. A "tenant" is someone residing on some premises.

    If peace really were a "tenant" of all religions, we wouldn't have any problems. Unfortunately, although it is a tenet, it is also frequently a shunned cousin.
    Sadly so true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    One thing that baffled the Romans was how some particular piece of land could be considered "holy". Too bad they didn't stamp the concept out.
    The Romans themselves considered Rome sacred in a way and had special laws surrounding even entering it so I'm not sure why the concept mystified them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    Islam does endorse killing and violence. It advocates Jihad against all disbelievers as these verses show.
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...3-violence.htm

    I can also show many verses which are racist, sexist and homophobic.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

    Jihad is about as misunderstood in the English language as the word "geisha" is.

    It could be interpreted as anything from "maintain your faith in the face of people trying to restrict it" to "defense against an invader of another religion" to 20,000 things in between.

    One thing is certain however is that if you try to claim jihad exclusively or primarily means "go out and aggressively war on anyone not Muslim" you're going to have a majority of Muslim scholars/theologians disagreeing with your definition of it.

    Additionally I'm certain you don't mean to imply that things in other religions cannot be interpreted in ways that seem harsh, cruel or negative to modern sensibilities. Like exiling women who are in their "unclean time" or cutting off your hand if it causes you to sin or hitting your children with rods.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; December 4th, 2012 at 12:06 AM.

  13. #63
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    The Romans themselves considered Rome sacred in a way and had special laws surrounding even entering it so I'm not sure why the concept mystified them.
    For one's home city, they understood it, which played a small part in granting Jerusalem more privileges. But regarding open areas where sheep covered the ground with shit to be holy made about as much sense to them as a God who couldn't be represented in stone.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #64
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    I guess I need to apologize for last nite. It dawned on me this AM that today would have been our 32nd anniversary.
    The cats caused it.
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  15. #65
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: if not for Israel's Iron Dome system, the fight would be much worst ??

    Just as an aside on the subject title, Iron Dome has performed far better than expected. I understand the local mayors in cities all though southern Israel are fighting to get new units placed to cover their communities. The Short Range ballistic missiles and artillery range that Iron Dome operates in was thought to be impossible to effectively protect against but the system works. After a lot of ridicule from skeptics over the years Missile Defense seems to be proving out in all the ranges.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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