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  1. #1
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    UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Good for the Palestinians. This is a step in the right direction.

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...11-29-18-23-24
    Nov 29, 6:23 PM EST

    UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    By EDITH M. LEDERER
    Associated Press

    UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- The United Nations voted overwhelmingly Thursday to recognize a Palestinian state, a long-sought victory for the Palestinians and an embarrassing diplomatic defeat for the United States.

    [Quote truncated by moderator] 2012 The Associated Press.
All rights reserved.
    Last edited by opinterph; November 29th, 2012 at 11:00 PM. Reason: truncated excessive quote from copyrighted source; Refer to CE&P Posting Guidelines

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    So when the next rocket comes flying out of Gaza, Israel can now declare war in response on an attacking sovereign state?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  3. #3
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    So when the next rocket comes flying out of Gaza, Israel can now declare war in response on an attacking sovereign state?
    Why would that be any different from before?

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Great news.

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Why would that be any different from before?
    It would give Israel a little more legitimacy in their actions, but aside from that the results would not be much different. It could pretty much be used as a basis to throw the whole 67 border lines argument out the window since a whole new war would have occurred, the Palestinian territories are defeated and occupied again and the whole stupid mess starts over again from scratch.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    The only real trouble will begin when Palestine becomes a member state and therefore, access to the international court system. This voting is tantamount to a cease and desist letter to Israel saying: "play nice".

  7. #7
    GiancarloC
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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    This is not much of a step in any direction. Israel will continue its actions, and I doubt that Palestine will be given full statehood status in the UN any time soon. In fact this could backfire on the Palestinians.

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Why would that be any different from before?
    With an act of war, a country essentially authorizes the aggressed nation to take whatever action they deem necessary to their security. In that situation, Israel could decide to push everyone out of Gaza and into Egypt, on the basis that the strip is being used as a staging ground for attacks -- which is quite true.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    With an act of war, a country essentially authorizes the aggressed nation to take whatever action they deem necessary to their security. In that situation, Israel could decide to push everyone out of Gaza and into Egypt, on the basis that the strip is being used as a staging ground for attacks -- which is quite true.
    It would also mean when Palestine fights back Israel can't play the terrorist victim card anymore.

    Besides this all sounds like armchair political analysis to me. I see extremely little reason to believe Israel hasn't always done pretty much whatever it wanted to provided it wouldn't result in EXTREME reactions from the west. If what we've seen is them as the good guys I can't imagine who but the most devout Zionist would defend the "no holds barred" things they'd do in this scenario you're describing.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 29th, 2012 at 08:19 PM.

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    I'm confused about this vote...I'm sure that I remembered some votes in the past failed because - USUALLY THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL AND NOBODY ELSE - voted against something. So I thought that consensus was needed at the U. N.?

    What is their voting procedure?
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - 28th Amendment, US Constitution?
    "But, hey, who cares about women and their rights when the religious liberty of a nationwide chain of arts and crafts stores is at stake?" - Daily Kos, 30 June 2014
    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I'm confused about this vote...I'm sure that I remembered some votes in the past failed because - USUALLY THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL AND NOBODY ELSE - voted against something. So I thought that consensus was needed at the U. N.?

    What is their voting procedure?
    If it was for full member status then yes, all "permanent members of the UN" [China, France, Russia, UK, US] would have to agree on top of a 2/3rd majority. The top 5 have veto power on "substantive" resolutions so if any of them vote 'no', the resolution is stopped. What constitutes substantive resolutions I don't remember. It's been a while since I took IR back in high school.

  12. #12
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    I thought those 5 weren't just permanent members but permanent members of the Security Council?

    Canada with a no vote disappoints me. Stephen Harper can go to hell.

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    I thought those 5 weren't just permanent members but permanent members of the Security Council?

    Canada with a no vote disappoints me. Stephen Harper can go to hell.
    They were the founding five aka the main victors of WWII which is why Germany and Japan are not there. Norway likes to make a big stink about not being a founding member either but frankly, they can shove their peace prize up their ass.

  14. #14
    JockBoy87
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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Statehood is a step forward for the Palestinian nation, but at the same time, reduces Israel's obligation to provide current levels of humanitarian assistance.

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    I don't think Israel can ever be forthright in negotiations supporting Palestinian statehood for domestic political reasons. The theocrats are too strong in Israel and I think the UN has done Israel a favour by putting this question beyond their reach. It will allow Israel to focus on its legitimate security interests instead of having theocratic existential questions about Greater Israel intruding on every foreign policy decision taken by the government. Israel is a real country with real borders, legitimate security interests, and it's not going away. Establishing Palestine on the same basis will make that clearer for both sides.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It would also mean when Palestine fights back Israel can't play the terrorist victim card anymore.

    Besides this all sounds like armchair political analysis to me. I see extremely little reason to believe Israel hasn't always done pretty much whatever it wanted to provided it wouldn't result in EXTREME reactions from the west. If what we've seen is them as the good guys I can't imagine who but the most devout Zionist would defend the "no holds barred" things they'd do in this scenario you're describing.
    I can't, either, but given some of the talk in some Israeli circles I can't fathom how the Palestinians would even risk it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I'm confused about this vote...I'm sure that I remembered some votes in the past failed because - USUALLY THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL AND NOBODY ELSE - voted against something. So I thought that consensus was needed at the U. N.?

    What is their voting procedure?
    This was voted on by the UN's "General Assembly" in which there are no vetoes. The UN's "Security Council" is more powerful, and that's where vetoes take place. In this case, the only thing that was needed to approve Palestine as a "nonmember observer state" was a majority vote by the General Assembly.

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    Re: UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    They were the founding five aka the main victors of WWII which is why Germany and Japan are not there. Norway likes to make a big stink about not being a founding member either but frankly, they can shove their peace prize up their ass.
    And the reasoning was that since they were the "great powers", having the UN go ahead on something one of them opposed could risk war. We call it a "veto", but it's actually a requirement for unanimity in order to avoid another world war. We have to keep in mind that the UN wasn't founded to get anything done so much as to avoid war between the great powers.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; November 30th, 2012 at 11:01 AM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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