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    Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    And the world isn't flat, either! What would Jesus think?


    http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...than_thought__

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    Oh noes!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    I believe the earth is flat relative to me.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    That's something like TEN THOUSAND times as old as some Creationists claim.

    OK, I have a question for Creationists. If you say that the earth is 6,700 years old (give or take a couple hundred), how and why is it that scientific methods such as carbon-dating, measuring residual radiation, etc. proves that things are FAR older than what you claim?

    I believe that Creationists will agree that God created PHYSICS (and its laws, gravity, etc.) as well as all the tangible things.

    So, if somebody sticks to this timetable and they say that these scientific methods (which were made possible by what God created) are giving us bad data, THEY ARE SAYING THAT GOD IS **LYING** TO US!!!!!!!
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - 28th Amendment, US Constitution?
    "But, hey, who cares about women and their rights when the religious liberty of a nationwide chain of arts and crafts stores is at stake?" - Daily Kos, 30 June 2014
    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    That's something like TEN THOUSAND times as old as some Creationists claim.

    OK, I have a question for Creationists. If you say that the earth is 6,700 years old (give or take a couple hundred), how and why is it that scientific methods such as carbon-dating, measuring residual radiation, etc. proves that things are FAR older than what you claim?

    I believe that Creationists will agree that God created PHYSICS (and its laws, gravity, etc.) as well as all the tangible things.

    So, if somebody sticks to this timetable and they say that these scientific methods (which were made possible by what God created) are giving us bad data, THEY ARE SAYING THAT GOD IS **LYING** TO US!!!!!!!
    I'm fairly sure the creationists who are fundamentalist enough to claim the earth is ~6000 years old have pretty much already rejected science sufficiently that asking them about carbon dating won't get a persuasive answer. They simply don't believe in it.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    The creationists don't really care about facts...they systematically ignore them.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Since Senator Rubio thinks the earth was created in 6 or 7 "eras", perhaps we should ask him?

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Well that ought to blow some Southern Baptist minds.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    This will put kink in there minds.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Of course, you all realize that the fundie evangelicals out there are hardly likely to even hear of this news. Do you really think that they are listening to ar reading about science stories????

    Really??????????

    These are the same knuckle draggers with their australopithicus brains who are absolutely convinced that dinosaur fossils have been placed on earth by Satan.

    Last edited by rareboy; November 29th, 2012 at 04:03 PM.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    I'm a military brat, and moved to different locations six times before the final move occured when I was 14. I was exposed to a wide variety of sciences and history courses while attending many different schools. I also attended Sunday School and Church; I was a member of the Church youth group.

    I knew enough at the age of 15 to know I needed to get my spirtual guidance elsewhere and left the Church. My parents supported my decision. They wanted it to be my decision, which looking back now at 59, makes me grateful.

    I certainly have my spirtual beliefs. I still have the Bible I received when I was six. It's just the organized zealots that believe based on beliefs that I just don't believe.

    Anyway, sorry for the ramble, but it was this kind of stuff being pushed/taught/preached that I just couldn't square with scientific facts.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    The existence of the canyon (i.e. the erosion by the river) may now be 70 m.y....

    ....but the age of the rocks themselves are a lot older even than that.



    ^ Permian is 250 m.y. and is the youngest, Pennsylvanian and Mississippian refer to the Carboniferous period which is 300 m.y. and so on down to the Precambrian at the bottom which means AT LEAST 550 m.y.

    The rocks of the Canadian Shield go back to more than 2000 m.y.

    We know this by carbon-dating - measuring the different levels of isotopes in the rock with certain ones having radioactive decay and a designated half-life. By comparing the ratio of one to the other we can determine their age.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Carbon dating? Do you mean black magic?

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    ..witches with microscopes....

    GET A TORCH!!!
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought



    That's where we're headed.
    Last edited by CTF; November 29th, 2012 at 05:07 PM.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    ^ The pig doesn't have a cybernetically installed blackberry.

    0/10 don't believe.

  17. #17

    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    What I understand from the article -- scientists even question each other about the age of the earth.

    Nothing is written in stone.

  18. #18
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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    What I understand from the article -- scientists even question each other about the age of the earth.

    Nothing is written in stone.
    They all agree 6000 year creationism is bunk though.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    The existence of the canyon (i.e. the erosion by the river) may now be 70 m.y....

    ....but the age of the rocks themselves are a lot older even than that.



    ^ Permian is 250 m.y. and is the youngest, Pennsylvanian and Mississippian refer to the Carboniferous period which is 300 m.y. and so on down to the Precambrian at the bottom which means AT LEAST 550 m.y.

    The rocks of the Canadian Shield go back to more than 2000 m.y.

    We know this by carbon-dating - measuring the different levels of isotopes in the rock with certain ones having radioactive decay and a designated half-life. By comparing the ratio of one to the other we can determine their age.
    Actually carbon dating isn't good back that far. To date the PreCambrian, potassium-argon dating applies.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    They all agree 6000 year creationism is bunk though.
    Only a fool would believe that figure, since it doesn't come from anywhere at all, not even the Bible.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #21
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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    You can't take these time estimates too seriously.

    They are always again and again correcting previous estimates.

    I'm sure the science behind it is decent but it's still just an educated guess.

    For example I think it's very likely the earth is few billion years old. But to say it's exactly 4.6 is something you shouldn't take as a 100% fact. I think it's very much possible it's not in the 4 to 5 billion range.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Geiri85 View Post
    You can't take these time estimates too seriously.

    They are always again and again correcting previous estimates.

    I'm sure the science behind it is decent but it's still just an educated guess.

    For example I think it's very likely the earth is few billion years old. But to say it's exactly 4.6 is something you shouldn't take as a 100% fact. I think it's very much possible it's not in the 4 to 5 billion range.
    There are surface rocks from several continents that are 3.8 - 3.9 billion years old, dated with multiple methods, which sets a minimum: long enough for the earth to have formed, cooled, and undergone erosion which resulted in sedimentary and metamorphic rock. That alone takes us over the 4bn mark. Certain formations in Australia have been dated by uranium -> lead measurements to 4.4bn, so there's little doubt the age is 4.5+ billion.

    Working from the other direction, which is to say dating materials in the solar system, the oldest solid materials found come in at just under 4.6bn years, so the earth isn't likely to be older than that.

    The result is an age between 4.4 and 4.6 billion years. When other dating methods are factored in, that narrows to about 4.54bn years, with an uncertainty factor of 1%.

    So unless a fair amount of what we know about chemistry and physics is wrong, it's not at all possible "it's not in the 4 to 5 billion range".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Lestatnj View Post
    And the world isn't flat, either! What would Jesus think?


    http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...than_thought__
    Nobody ever said that so-called creationists were smart. Just another name for fundamentalists.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There are surface rocks from several continents that are 3.8 - 3.9 billion years old, dated with multiple methods, which sets a minimum: long enough for the earth to have formed, cooled, and undergone erosion which resulted in sedimentary and metamorphic rock. That alone takes us over the 4bn mark. Certain formations in Australia have been dated by uranium -> lead measurements to 4.4bn, so there's little doubt the age is 4.5+ billion.

    Working from the other direction, which is to say dating materials in the solar system, the oldest solid materials found come in at just under 4.6bn years, so the earth isn't likely to be older than that.

    The result is an age between 4.4 and 4.6 billion years. When other dating methods are factored in, that narrows to about 4.54bn years, with an uncertainty factor of 1%.

    So unless a fair amount of what we know about chemistry and physics is wrong, it's not at all possible "it's not in the 4 to 5 billion range".
    I admit I'm somewhat pleasantly surprised to see you saying this Kuli.

    We are both in complete and harmonius agreement with everything you just typed, yet I seem to remember you disagreeing with me strongly about the evolutionary process of life on earth.

    Do you also agree then, that the resulting fossil record from all these rocks you describe shows the divergence and spread of organisms and species from the simplest forms up to more complex forms as time passed?

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Nobody ever said that so-called creationists were smart. Just another name for fundamentalists.
    Only young-earth creationists -- there are many creationists who have no problem with a 4.6bn year old earth or a 12bn year old universe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    I admit I'm somewhat pleasantly surprised to see you saying this Kuli.

    We are both in complete and harmonius agreement with everything you just typed, yet I seem to remember you disagreeing with me strongly about the evolutionary process of life on earth.

    Do you also agree then, that the resulting fossil record from all these rocks you describe shows the divergence and spread of organisms and species from the simplest forms up to more complex forms as time passed?
    Well, duh!

    God, contrary to the young-earth creationists, is not a liar.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #26
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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    What I understand from the article -- scientists even question each other about the age of the earth.

    Nothing is written in stone.
    Jack I know you think i pick on you but THAT is amusing as hell to me....

    I think it is written in the stone.... precisely what the article argues....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Well, duh!
    Excellent.

    So therefore we are both in complete agreement that this evolutionary process resulted in the emergence of Man, from prehistoric apes in the African continent about 3 to 5 million years ago.

    THANKYOU Kuli, I knew you'd come round one day, so nice we can agree on this, now I must be going....






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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Of course evolution happens. The flu comes back every year.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So unless a fair amount of what we know about chemistry and physics is wrong, it's not at all possible "it's not in the 4 to 5 billion range".
    I understand the guess and it's probably a good one.

    But how can you be so sure one day they won't have another estimate with better knowledge?

    So so many times before in scientific history we have had cases where 99% of scientists agree on something and then later it turned out to be wrong.

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    Re: Bad News for Creationists: Grand Canyon Probably Older than Originally Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Carbon dating? Do you mean black magic?
    Can I join in?
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