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Thread: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

      
   
  1. #201
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    It was for that war. In fact it was the only acceptable outcome.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    They were going through the Swiss and the Vatican... Italy was involved in the war on the convincingly losing side and in no state to negotiate anything.
    This was before the days of red telephone lines between world powers.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This was before the days of red telephone lines between world powers.
    Okay that still makes your previous statement no less accurate... what red lines does the Swiss and Vatican have....lol
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    It was for that war.
    You're just last-wording now. No, it wasn't. America was not at risk of losing 300,000 soldiers or the entire war or anything else by having a conditional surrender where the Emperor was kept as a symbolic head of state and whatever other paltry symbolic gestures in the agreement that would have saved face.

    You can dismiss face-saving all you want but the military leadership at the time understood its importance and respected it--- hence my bringing up earlier about the rules to the troops not to humiliate or mock the Japanese soldiers during the occupation, or celebrate the victory in front of Japanese.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Okay that still makes your previous statement no less accurate... what red lines does the Swiss and Vatican have....lol
    Swiss have a historical position as a world neutrality and many treaties have been brokered there.

    I had thought that was widely known historical fact.

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    IllumiNaughty Overlord. bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    I don't think Japan had discharged itself in any way that merited a surrender including conditions of their choosing. Are you saying the west had a duty or even a reason to accept a conditional surrender? I think the west had a duty to require an unconditional surrender, lest we have ended up fighting WWIII in the 1970s.

    Japan would have been aware that the calculus of conventional warfare doomed them to eventual defeat and that the option of unconditional surrender was there for it to claim. It did not care. That attitude is itself a war crime of self-genocide. Accept humiliation and save lives.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I don't think Japan had discharged itself in any way that merited a surrender including conditions of their choosing. Are you saying the west had a duty or even a reason to accept a conditional surrender? I think the west had a duty to require an unconditional surrender, lest we have ended up fighting WWIII in the 1970s.

    Japan would have been aware that the calculus of conventional warfare doomed them to eventual defeat and that the option of unconditional surrender was there for it to claim. It did not care. That attitude is itself a war crime of self-genocide. Accept humiliation and save lives.
    This doesn't change necessity. This is a mouthful of subjective moral judgments from one side.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You're just last-wording now. No, it wasn't. America was not at risk of losing 300,000 soldiers or the entire war or anything else by having a conditional surrender where the Emperor was kept as a symbolic head of state and whatever other paltry symbolic gestures in the agreement that would have saved face.

    You can dismiss face-saving all you want but the military leadership at the time understood its importance and respected it--- hence my bringing up earlier about the rules to the troops not to humiliate or mock the Japanese soldiers during the occupation, or celebrate the victory in front of Japanese.
    There is a well established western virtue of denying the opportunity for one's own side to wallow in hubris. This is very distinct from respecting or acquiescing in someone else's desire to save face. They aren't complementary; I think you are conflating two incompatible values. For the reason that the notion of "saving face" is itself a conceit.

    The western obligation to conduct oneself with modesty in victory is actually the flipside of, in everyday speech, not acting like a sore loser. And demanding conditions of no substantive significance, but as a way of "saving face" on the pretext of having "won a concession" is the definition of being a sore loser. And really, the definition of not surrendering at all. My review of the culture of the day in Imperial Japan admits of only two options: unconditional surrender, and the pretext of surrender.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This doesn't change necessity. This is a mouthful of subjective moral judgments from one side.
    I don't know what that means.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

  9. #209
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    There is a well established western virtue of denying the opportunity for one's own side to wallow in hubris. This is very distinct from respecting or acquiescing in someone else's desire to save face. They aren't complementary; I think you are conflating two incompatible values. For the reason that the notion of "saving face" is itself a conceit.

    The western obligation to conduct oneself with modesty in victory is actually the flipside of, in everyday speech, not acting like a sore loser. And demanding conditions of no substantive significance, but as a way of "saving face" on the pretext of having "won a concession" is the definition of being a sore loser. And really, the definition of not surrendering at all. My review of the culture of the day in Imperial Japan admits of only two options: unconditional surrender, and the pretext of surrender.
    Read what Colin Powell and others have said about the fact that the pride of the Japanese WAS a major factor in their approach to how to handle the occupation. No, it wasn't just "the usual western modesty", whatever that is. Thankfully at least in the management of the occupation the cooler heads who cared about practical results and not about ego posturing prevailed which is a very large part of why Japan's rebuilding is a major world history success story and not an earlier Iraq War story.

    I don't know what that means.
    Long story short you can make every argument in the world about how the west had a 'moral right' to demand this and that because of x, y and z. That's going to be a subjective interpretation however you slice it.

    It doesn't change the fact that the war was 98% won, Japan's effective military had been destroyed, its presence in the entire theater outside of the home islands lost, the "military necessity" to nuke two cities to change a minimal conditional surrender to an unconditional one was unnecessary for the purposes of winning the war decisively and undeniably. We're not talking about the sorts of ridiculous things people have slapped back at me, such as you saying Japan was graciously willing to accept the U.S.'s surrender. We're talking about the core of it from the Japanese perspective being keeping their emperor as a stabilizing symbol at home and not dragged off to be executed for war decisions he had no actual part of.

    Commence wriggling, accusations of America hating and everything else.

    Note that in this thread we've been through every single myth from "omg Americans were going to lose hundreds of thousands of troops" to "omg Americans were losing appalling casualties at that very moment and HAD TO END IT!" to everything else and they just keep cycling through new ones. Even the "we HAD to do it or Russia would have owned the Pacific" one got instantly abandoned.

    If I've accomplished nothing else I believe the point has been sufficiently made that people mostly believe a bunch of exaggerations, hypes and historical falsehoods as to "why we 'had' to nuke Japan." Given that we've been through so many and people just keep changing their answer.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; December 3rd, 2012 at 09:53 AM.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    For my part, my response has been consistently that Japanese cultural values and preferences were incompatible with surrendering in good faith, and that it was correct to bring those values to their knees. My reference to the internal mental dialogue of high Japanese officials is illustrative.

    Moreover, the lives of hundreds of thousands of US troops may not have been at risk. But the ethical calculus favours the life of just one drafted US soldier over the life of one failed emperor. And the moral responsibility for the lives lost, when unconditional surrender was on the table, lies squarely with the Japanese who ignored the option. To sustain the charge that Americans did it needlessly, you would need to show that Japan had sent an instrument of unconditional surrender to any one of the western allies, and the United States chose knowingly to ignore it for the pleasure of testing their new weapon. History doesn't read that way.

    And repeating the same misguided argument again and again is not indicative of consistency or logic; it's more like a mantra. You're welcome to it, I guess, but don't imagine you are somehow being objective rather than subjective.
    Last edited by bankside; December 3rd, 2012 at 10:09 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

  11. #211
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    For my part, my response has been consistently that Japanese cultural values and preferences were incompatible with surrendering in good faith, and that it was correct to bring those values to their knees. My reference to the internal mental dialogue of high Japanese officials is illustrative.
    I'm not saying it's impossible you're right but I am saying it would require mindreading to validate this as something more than speculation. Since the U.S. refused to negotiate terms above unconditional surrender and batted away the peace feelers it's a moot point.

    Moreover, the lives of hundreds of thousands of US troops may not have been at risk. But the ethical calculus favours the life of just one drafted US soldier over the life of one failed emperor. And the moral responsibility for the lives lost, when unconditional surrender was on the table, lies squarely with the Japanese who ignored the option. To sustain the charge that Americans did it needlessly, you would need to show that Japan had sent an instrument of unconditional surrender to any one of the western allies, and the United States chose knowingly to ignore it for the pleasure of testing their new weapon. History doesn't read that way.

    And repeating the same misguided argument again and again is not indicative of consistency or logic; it's more like a mantra. You're welcome to it, I guess, but don't imagine you are somehow being objective rather than subjective.
    I don't need to do any such thing. You are adopting Jayhawk's position that the only possible close to the war was unconditional surrender based primarily around a condition which we did not collect upon anyway. Therefore I do not need to show "Japan tried to unconditionally surrender beforehand" to sustain my point.

    Your internal mental dialogue of Japanese high officials is time travelling mind reading, as I pointed out earlier. You may repeat that all you like like a mantra but don't imagine it's hard evidence of anything.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Swiss have a historical position as a world neutrality and many treaties have been brokered there.

    I had thought that was widely known historical fact.
    You said Italy.... I realize it is hard to keep up when you keep posting falsehood after falsehood but try and keep up with your own post...
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You said Italy.... I realize it is hard to keep up when you keep posting falsehood after falsehood but try and keep up with your own post...
    [Text: Removed by Moderator] I haven't "lied" about anything. I brought up Italy, you brought up the Swiss, yes, Japan was trying to negotiate with the U.S. through "neutral" third parties because there wasn't a direct diplomatic connection after the commencement of the war. The Pope represents the Catholic Church, not the state of Italy, and neither his nor the Swiss's role in war ending are sudden news flashes in history to anyone but you.

    I linked you to the CIA website showing this exchange, if you're going to now call me a liar bring something to the table other than your "I don't care how many people die" mindset and back it up.
    Last edited by opinterph; December 3rd, 2012 at 04:12 PM. Reason: removed interpersonal commentary/demeaning personal characterizations

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Read what Colin Powell and others have said about the fact that the pride of the Japanese WAS a major factor in their approach to how to handle the occupation. No, it wasn't just "the usual western modesty", whatever that is. Thankfully at least in the management of the occupation the cooler heads who cared about practical results and not about ego posturing prevailed which is a very large part of why Japan's rebuilding is a major world history success story and not an earlier Iraq War story.



    Long story short you can make every argument in the world about how the west had a 'moral right' to demand this and that because of x, y and z. That's going to be a subjective interpretation however you slice it.

    It doesn't change the fact that the war was 98% won, Japan's effective military had been destroyed, its presence in the entire theater outside of the home islands lost, the "military necessity" to nuke two cities to change a minimal conditional surrender to an unconditional one was unnecessary for the purposes of winning the war decisively and undeniably. We're not talking about the sorts of ridiculous things people have slapped back at me, such as you saying Japan was graciously willing to accept the U.S.'s surrender. We're talking about the core of it from the Japanese perspective being keeping their emperor as a stabilizing symbol at home and not dragged off to be executed for war decisions he had no actual part of.

    Commence wriggling, accusations of America hating and everything else.

    Note that in this thread we've been through every single myth from "omg Americans were going to lose hundreds of thousands of troops" to "omg Americans were losing appalling casualties at that very moment and HAD TO END IT!" to everything else and they just keep cycling through new ones. Even the "we HAD to do it or Russia would have owned the Pacific" one got instantly abandoned.

    If I've accomplished nothing else I believe the point has been sufficiently made that people mostly believe a bunch of exaggerations, hypes and historical falsehoods as to "why we 'had' to nuke Japan." Given that we've been through so many and people just keep changing their answer.
    No one said OMG Americans would lose a hundred thousand troops... your being dramatic to try and make your point sound reasoned... it is not. Russian dominance or challenge in what remained of the world after WWII was a very key issue that was immediately the shape of the world after the war. I know you don't believe that but then again you think that the peace offered to the Japanese that was refused in July would somehow come to fruition magically. Now you are simply vacillating to try and cover your errant logic. I think bankside is correct you may have at it if having the last word is what you must do.... cheers


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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I'm not saying it's impossible you're right but I am saying it would require mindreading to validate this as something more than speculation. Since the U.S. refused to negotiate terms above unconditional surrender and batted away the peace feelers it's a moot point.



    I don't need to do any such thing. You are adopting Jayhawk's position that the only possible close to the war was unconditional surrender based primarily around a condition which we did not collect upon anyway. Therefore I do not need to show "Japan tried to unconditionally surrender beforehand" to sustain my point.
    I'd be prepared to take on the challenge of showing unconditional surrender to have been the only realistic option, however first I think you need to acknowledge that unconditional surrender can be a legitimate way to end a war, if not this war. You seem to be arguing that it is, as such, not legitimate. If so, you haven't shown why. And if that's not the case, what circumstances would you suggest would have called for unconditional surrender as the only reasonable thing to demand?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    [Text: Removed by Moderator] I haven't "lied" about anything. I brought up Italy, you brought up the Swiss, yes, Japan was trying to negotiate with the U.S. through "neutral" third parties because there wasn't a direct diplomatic connection after the commencement of the war. The Pope represents the Catholic Church, not the state of Italy, and neither his nor the Swiss's role in war ending are sudden news flashes in history to anyone but you.

    I linked you to the CIA website showing this exchange, if you're going to now call me a liar bring something to the table other than your "I don't care how many people die" mindset and back it up.
    You said Italy. I corrected you. that isn't calling you a liar ... refusing to admit it after doing so is lying. SO I said so.
    Last edited by opinterph; December 3rd, 2012 at 04:15 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    No one said OMG Americans would lose a hundred thousand troops...
    Actually yes, they did, and the continue to do so. In fact that is probably the single most common reason people give as to why we "had" to nuke Japan:

    http://home.roadrunner.com/~casualties/

    And in the vain hope you learn something from this debate I won't call you a "liar" over it.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I'd be prepared to take on the challenge of showing unconditional surrender to have been the only realistic option, however first I think you need to acknowledge that unconditional surrender can be a legitimate way to end a war, if not this war.
    That was never in dispute. Only the notion that it is the ONLY way and if you have to incinerate through an entire population to get it, you "had no other choice."

    You seem to be arguing that it is, as such, not legitimate.
    That would not be a correct assessment. The correct assessment would be that nuking people over insisting upon unconditional if we could have gotten conditional while leaving the Emperor as a symbolic head of state (which we did anyway) is a highly questionably moral decision, and that in any event nuking two cities is a very bad thing and that people's hardcore deadset need for righteous myth about the U.S. in WWII is what underpins their inability to say so.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That would not be a correct assessment. The correct assessment would be that nuking people over insisting upon unconditional if we could have gotten conditional while leaving the Emperor as a symbolic head of state (which we did anyway) is a highly questionably moral decision, and that in any event nuking two cities is a very bad thing and that people's hardcore deadset need for righteous myth about the U.S. in WWII is what underpins their inability to say so.
    Ahh. You've opened up some room for people to disagree, perhaps.

    First, operating from the premise "The Americans are insane! They are actually going to nuke us if we don't hand over the Emperor!" what does it say about the moral standing of people who would rather keep their Emperor and their "face," than save hundreds of thousands from nuclear incineration? I'd argue it is pretty depraved.

    Second, I'd argue that the strategy used in Japan was based on, and an extension of, the strategy used by Bomber Harris in Dresden, to similar effect. The Allies became convinced this was not a war over a strategic objective here or a territory there: it was a war that would be determinative of the values of civilisation going forward. (That they felt this is evidencedby the emphasis, post war, of institutions like the UN, the ICJ, a whole bunch of multilateral efforts to change the way states engaged, the scope of the state, etc.)

    In a civilisation-level battle, there is no room for half measures. I think that position was held in good faith, and justified, on the part of the British with respect to the campaign in Germany and on the part of the Americans with respect to the campaign in Japan. The objective was to sweep everything away, and to demonstrate to the population that everything had been swept away. The old assumptions and conceits could not hold.

    That the Emperor continued to serve at the pleasure of the occupation forces, and by leave of the constitution dictated by the victors, is a substantive difference from the Emperor having maintained his post by some continuing right. It was not only within the purview of the Allies to seek that end to the war; I think it was the only way to end the war. The fact that Germany had to be fought twice in a handful of decades must have reinforced that impression that a branch-and-root approach was the only option and that "minimal pruning" just wouldn't do the job.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Ahh. You've opened up some room for people to disagree, perhaps.

    First, operating from the premise "The Americans are insane! They are actually going to nuke us if we don't hand over the Emperor!" what does it say about the moral standing of people who would rather keep their Emperor and their "face," than save hundreds of thousands from nuclear incineration? I'd argue it is pretty depraved.

    Second, I'd argue that the strategy used in Japan was based on, and an extension of, the strategy used by Bomber Harris in Dresden, to similar effect. The Allies became convinced this was not a war over a strategic objective here or a territory there: it was a war that would be determinative of the values of civilisation going forward. (That they felt this is evidencedby the emphasis, post war, of institutions like the UN, the ICJ, a whole bunch of multilateral efforts to change the way states engaged, the scope of the state, etc.)

    In a civilisation-level battle, there is no room for half measures. I think that position was held in good faith, and justified, on the part of the British with respect to the campaign in Germany and on the part of the Americans with respect to the campaign in Japan. The objective was to sweep everything away, and to demonstrate to the population that everything had been swept away. The old assumptions and conceits could not hold.

    That the Emperor continued to serve at the pleasure of the occupation forces, and by leave of the constitution dictated by the victors, is a substantive difference from the Emperor having maintained his post by some continuing right. It was not only within the purview of the Allies to seek that end to the war; I think it was the only way to end the war. The fact that Germany had to be fought twice in a handful of decades must have reinforced that impression that a branch-and-root approach was the only option and that "minimal pruning" just wouldn't do the job.
    I understand this historical interpretation & respect your opinion on the matter. However, I differ in that I do not variably weigh the moral value of mass killing civilians based on "hmm is this a colonial war or an ideological war or a systemic war over the course of civilization", killing large numbers of them indiscriminately (and there is absolutely no other proper word for a nuclear detonation on a populated city) for anything other than clear and demonstrable self-preservation (that city is sitting on nukes about to fire at you?) is an incredibly horrific thing to do in any context.

    That statement should be able to be taken completely on its own without any need to justify it "within the greater context of this or that", in my view. Simply based on a respect for human life.

    If the nuking of these two cities was, as has been posited here so far in this thread, simply something no one should have raised eyebrows over in the context of 60 million casualties (and in that number I believe we're more than including the other theater of war plus diseases like malaria and yellow fever and indirect casualties like displacement) then we wouldn't even be here talking about the topic at all because it would not have stood out in any way. But the use of these two nukes on populated cities was a world-changing event. On that reasoning alone I reject the notion of "oh well x million died anyway in WWII so there was nothing special about nuking cities."

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You consider them all separate and failed arguments because that suits you... I continue to provide proof after proof that it was necessary and you have yet to describe the island by island fight because you know that is a losing argument. You continue to latch onto this idea that the world is won by diplomatic convincing and that might has no place. I would suggest you live in an alternate reality.
    When a demonstration of might would have sufficed, the application of it becomes mere viciousness. Your position is equivalent to suggesting that we use drones to blow up things like markets in order to scare the Hamas and Al Qaeda leadership -- purely gratuitous violence.

    Japan had some virtually uninhabited small islands of the coast of the main islands. If we merely wanted to show what we could do, bombing one of them first would have made the point -- incinerate some uninhabited real estate, then give them a week to look at it and think it over.

    The conclusion remains that the US incinerated two entire cities of people just because we could.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #222
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Actually what Rareboy said doesn't change the point of debate between you and I at all because even if we say "within the greater context of the war, people weren't going out of their way to minimize casualties" that should basically have no bearing on whether or not we can agree dropping bombs that incinerate 300k civilians is a bad thing.
    I think he's missing the difference between aiming for military targets without worrying about who else gets hit and deliberately incinerating tens of thousands of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    As proof they saw what it could do on August 6 1945 and still chose not to surrender.

    What does that tell you about bench test and their propensity to change minds in that era?
    It tells me that people like Gen. Groves on the US side were so eager for Japanese deaths they didn't even allow the Japanese to get over the shock of that unleashing of incomprehensible forces. From biographies of Japanese officers of the time it's pretty evident the whole place, government and all, were in such shock they were basically paralyzed.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #223
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The unconditional had more to do with conquered lands prior to WWII than it did with the imperial line.

    Nukes were necessary. Period.
    Let's assume for the moment they were.

    What was done with them is something entirely different. There was no "collateral damage" at Hiroshima; it was chosen for the very reason that it would incinerate tens of thousands of civilians. There were actual military bases on the target list, yet they purposefully chose one that had minor military importance because it let them slaughter tends of thousands of the enemy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    No one said OMG Americans would lose a hundred thousand troops... your being dramatic to try and make your point sound reasoned... it is not. Russian dominance or challenge in what remained of the world after WWII was a very key issue that was immediately the shape of the world after the war. I know you don't believe that but then again you think that the peace offered to the Japanese that was refused in July would somehow come to fruition magically. Now you are simply vacillating to try and cover your errant logic. I think bankside is correct you may have at it if having the last word is what you must do.... cheers


    but know in your heart you are wrong.
    July?

    Here is the substance of the offer made by the Japanese six months before that:

    Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
    Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
    Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
    Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
    Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
    Surrender of designated war criminals.
    *


    That was in January; the only thing they wanted to retain was their Emperor -- and advisors to the President pointed out that it would be impossible to occupy Japan without him, because it would devolve into sheer anarchy.

    Now to get to July, the Japanese didn't "refuse" -- they reduced their requested item to keeping the monarchy. The emperor was willing to step down and be replaced by his son. Again, presidential advisors pointed out that this was necessary if we were going to occupy the islands.

    In other words, the Japanese in January offered the very peace deal the US ultimately settled on -- but it was rejected. In July, the Japanese offered agreement to terms even stronger than what was finally agreed on -- and their offer was rejected. And while the diplomats were being arrogant, over sixty thousand more Americans died in fighting that wasn't necessary.

    Offers of surrender came through the Vatican, through Switzerland, through Sweden, through China, and not least through the hands of Gen. MacArthur himself. All were known to the president. And all, beginning in January 1945, were unconditional except for the emperor or at least the monarchy.

    In other words, Truman kept throwing away American lives to achieve what the Japanese had already offered.



    *http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #225
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    It appears I wasn't "spouting falsehoods" after all.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It appears I wasn't "spouting falsehoods" after all.
    Just to sweeten the pot, there were Japanese officials for whom the final blow wasn't either of the bombs, but the change of the Societs from neutrality to hostility. Much of the military staunchly held to fighting on (so as not to lose face), but with the "betrayal" by the Soviet declaration of war, their facade collapsed. It was at that point when the military block in the Emperor's cabinet broke, giving enough votes to get agreement on peace. Another reason behind that was the fact that essentially all their communications in attempt of arranging a near-unconditional surrender had gone through the Russians, who got message to various other parties. With that avenue closed, they saw no hope of even talking any longer.

    They were actually working on the wording of their acceptance of unconditional surrender when the second bomb fell.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  27. #227
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    July?

    Here is the substance of the offer made by the Japanese six months before that:

    *


    That was in January; the only thing they wanted to retain was their Emperor -- and advisors to the President pointed out that it would be impossible to occupy Japan without him, because it would devolve into sheer anarchy.

    Now to get to July, the Japanese didn't "refuse" -- they reduced their requested item to keeping the monarchy. The emperor was willing to step down and be replaced by his son. Again, presidential advisors pointed out that this was necessary if we were going to occupy the islands.

    In other words, the Japanese in January offered the very peace deal the US ultimately settled on -- but it was rejected. In July, the Japanese offered agreement to terms even stronger than what was finally agreed on -- and their offer was rejected. And while the diplomats were being arrogant, over sixty thousand more Americans died in fighting that wasn't necessary.

    Offers of surrender came through the Vatican, through Switzerland, through Sweden, through China, and not least through the hands of Gen. MacArthur himself. All were known to the president. And all, beginning in January 1945, were unconditional except for the emperor or at least the monarchy.

    In other words, Truman kept throwing away American lives to achieve what the Japanese had already offered.



    *http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html
    The offers were unclear and were not what was demanded and the refusal in July whether it be by translation error or by factual denial that they would accept the Potsdam declaration was what caused the drop of bombs. Oh and what was accepted HAD ZERO ZIP NADA to do with what occured. You talk about McArthur allowing the Emporor to stay as if it was in the instrument of surrender... trust me it is hanging on my wall the instrument of surrender offers no such thing.

    And Buzzer you are not spouting falsehoods because you deeply believe them to be true ... so it is more like Jack and his Obama is the fault of everything.... just because it is patently false doesn't mean you understand it as false.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The offers were unclear and were not what was demanded and the refusal in July whether it be by translation error or by factual denial that they would accept the Potsdam declaration was what caused the drop of bombs. Oh and what was accepted HAD ZERO ZIP NADA to do with what occured. You talk about McArthur allowing the Emporor to stay as if it was in the instrument of surrender... trust me it is hanging on my wall the instrument of surrender offers no such thing.



    And Buzzer you are not spouting falsehoods because you deeply believe them to be true ... so it is more like Jack and his Obama is the fault of everything.... just because it is patently false doesn't mean you understand it as false.
    I think we have to leave this at disagreeing Jayhawk. You saying you don't believe it doesn't make it false.

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