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  1. #101

    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    This is what I don't understand about the outrage.

    America was cheering as hundreds, then thousands then tens of thousands of innocent Iraquis were collateral damage while bunker busters and bombs rained down on them and indiscriminate killings took them out with the 'bad guys'.

    Suddenly, the idea of using a much more surgical approach and limiting deaths of innocent people to the greatest extent possible is seen as tantamount to pure evil.

    And I'll bet that Jack is one of those who don't feel that the US ever should apologize for Hirohima and Nagasaki.

    I'm just not getting the outrage, Jack.
    Thanks for telling me how I think and what I believe.

    The problem is ... you're wrong. I did not celebrate the deaths of human beings. I've told this story before on here -- a friend had access to a tape from the first gulf war. In the video a helicopter took out several men as they were standing around a vehicle. At the time I thought it was cool ... then it hit me, these men were actually living human beings .. this was not a movie -- there were real lives involved. I've not looked at war the same since.

    However, you are right about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think Truman did the right thing -- he looked at the big picture. He saved millions of lives by ending the war. Japan was still arrogant and thought he could win the war.

    Personally, rareboy, I don't think you'll ever understand the need for a strong military in defense to stop wars. You think most people who are in the military want war -- they don't -- they want to stop wars, they understand that a strong military is the most important way to stop new wars.

    Drones on the outset seem like a great idea -- clean surgical strikes to take out the bad guy. However, the explosion in their use and the many new forms they are taking -- even stealth drones now will cause escalation of war and use by terrorists, crooks, and rouge nations.

    Quite frankly I don't understand why liberals who say they hate war say they approve of them ... I even see a joke about them.

    Think where drones will be in 5 years.

  2. #102
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You only have one part wrong there... Saddam WAS a terror to his own people and he was making the calls and he did need to be tried and hung. The mistake was taking down and disarming (temporarily) the Baathist Army and structure of power in Iraq. those folks followed Saddam but would have easily followed another and they hated Iran. Their destruction was the ultimate failure of Iraq.
    Yeah because in the Arrogance of Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and Republican Vice President Richard "the dick" Cheney, who both said that "we'd be greeted as liberators," had no follow through plan beyond the fall of Baghdad.

    But these are the types of "leaders" that nearly half of the American electorate wish were still in power.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Yeah because in the Arrogance of Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and Republican Vice President Richard "the dick" Cheney, who both said that "we'd be greeted as liberators," had no follow through plan beyond the fall of Baghdad.

    But these are the types of "leaders" that nearly half of the American electorate wish were still in power.
    That's also not even mentioning that Rumsfeldt was part of the machine that helped Saddam into power and armed him for decades in the first place, which I suppose is off topic. They were certainly fine with his tactics before they started conflicting with our foreign oil policies.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thanks for telling me how I think and what I believe.

    The problem is ... you're wrong. I did not celebrate the deaths of human beings. I've told this story before on here -- a friend had access to a tape from the first gulf war. In the video a helicopter took out several men as they were standing around a vehicle. At the time I thought it was cool ... then it hit me, these men were actually living human beings .. this was not a movie -- there were real lives involved. I've not looked at war the same since.

    However, you are right about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think Truman did the right thing -- he looked at the big picture. He saved millions of lives by ending the war. Japan was still arrogant and thought he could win the war.

    Personally, rareboy, I don't think you'll ever understand the need for a strong military in defense to stop wars. You think most people who are in the military want war -- they don't -- they want to stop wars, they understand that a strong military is the most important way to stop new wars.

    Drones on the outset seem like a great idea -- clean surgical strikes to take out the bad guy. However, the explosion in their use and the many new forms they are taking -- even stealth drones now will cause escalation of war and use by terrorists, crooks, and rouge nations.

    Quite frankly I don't understand why liberals who say they hate war say they approve of them ... I even see a joke about them.

    Think where drones will be in 5 years.
    Your history is wrong. A country that still stubbornly believed it could win would not have sent attempts to negotiate a surrender twice. Their sole condition was the request that the Emperor be allowed to remain as a symbolic head of state, and the answer given was "nothing short of unconditional surrender"... and after we dropped the bombs to show them off to Russia, we ended up giving them that condition anyway.

    We nuked those people for no reason. The whole "we would have lost 300k men in a ground invasion" was a farce. There's no need to ground invade a country that is already trying to surrender to you.

  5. #105

    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Historical nitpick- the emperor was making no decisions regarding the war. That was both suspected and then it was fully realized during the occupation, which is why he was never tried for war crimes.

    The office of the emperor in Japan has had actual ruling power only in bits and scratches covering probably like 2% or less of Japan's total history... academics knew that, and MacArthur waved his hands in the air and threw a fit and said look guys if you kill or try this guy you're going to make my job a HELL OF A LOT HARDER, let him stay as a symbolic uniter, so they did.

    Opposite mindset of today where we'd have had him blindfolded at a hangman's noose in front of a jeering crowd and then had a bloodier occupation.
    You're giving the impression that the Emperor of Japan was blameless in the atrocities of WWII. The Emperor thought of himself as god and so did the Japanese people. He was in total control of war because he selected the people to run the war for him.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    You're giving the impression that the Emperor of Japan was blameless in the atrocities of WWII. The Emperor thought of himself as god and so did the Japanese people. He was in total control of war because he selected the people to run the war for him.
    Your history is wrong. The Emperor had nothing to do with wartime decisions and if you sincerely believe the crap you're spouting then it makes utterly no sense that we just went "oh sure whatever nah we'll drop the war crimes charges, what's a couple of war crimes between friends?"

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Japan was not trying to surrender.

    I find it amusing that people forget (conveniently) that island by Island the Japanese fought to the death every single man on the island because defeat was not acceptable. They also thought they could assume our power by eating the livers of the POW's they had captured.

    The LIE that Japan was trying to surrender is some Hollywood made up version of life where everyone really wants to be happy and war doesn't exist.
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  8. #108

    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    ^^^

    Thank you.

  9. #109
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Japan was not trying to surrender.

    I find it amusing that people forget (conveniently) that island by Island the Japanese fought to the death every single man on the island because defeat was not acceptable. They also thought they could assume our power by eating the livers of the POW's they had captured.

    The LIE that Japan was trying to surrender is some Hollywood made up version of life where everyone really wants to be happy and war doesn't exist.
    That's simply not true Jay.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...3a06p_0001.htm

    Unless the CIA is lying about it too.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 30th, 2012 at 03:24 PM.

  10. #110
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    You're giving the impression that the Emperor of Japan was blameless in the atrocities of WWII. The Emperor thought of himself as god and so did the Japanese people. He was in total control of war because he selected the people to run the war for him.
    And none of those people were among the innocent who were incinerated at Hiroshima or Nagasaki or Dresden.

    But you are missing the point.

    As long as the death count remains incomprehansibly large...people just look at it as a statistic.

    But to the world's credit, the stomach for 'casualties' seems to be weakening. America and western nations do not have the resolve to send tens or hundreds of thousands of young people to their deaths fighting foreign wars. Television has brought the physical horror of war and the damage visited on the bodies of enemies into our living and dining rooms. And godammit, we don't like it.

    And the drones are designed to do two things.

    -Reduce the loss of life of US soldiers

    -Reduce the collateral damage through loss of life of innocents. Now mark that I didn't say eliminate. Not there yet.

  11. #111
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That's simply not true Jay.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...3a06p_0001.htm

    Unless the CIA is lying about it too.
    From your source :

    These peace feelers were generally the product of local initiative and had at most only a tacit approval from official Tokyo, where government quarreling over the question of capitulation was growing more and more desperate as the year advanced ~ 17 January 1945
    The Japanese Government feels that Japan can continue the Pacific war indefinitely in view of Russia's certain refusal to enter the war. Japan therefore cannot reduce its minimum terms for a peace settlement. ~ 16 February 1945
    He promises as soon as possible to send the Holy See a set of conditions which it may judge acceptable to the Anglo-Americans, and he beseeches the Pope to pray that Japan's rulers may become convinced of the necessity of an honorable peace.~ 31 May 1945
    The timeline goes through MANY different back and forth of Japan asking for different conditions instead of unconditional surrender. They never actually accept that as a result they are bombed and then miraculously and immediately surrender. These discussions had gone on for months now with no motion forward. Meanwhile our men and treasure were continuing to be lost in the western pacific.

    When you navy is defeated and your people are starving you don't continue to have months after months of discussions on to whether or not they Will surrender. Read your own link and you will find the Japanese government during this entire time was making radio broadcasts to their people that kept them fired up for the fight. The men dying in the Pacific were not fighting the couple of back channels talking to intermediaries in Bern. They were fighting the people fired up by lies.

    I just cant get past folks who defend a people that had no compunction tossing Chinese babies into the air and catching them on bayonets or gang raping Chinese girls for entire battalions before killing them. These were utter savages. They talked and talked and talked for nine months and never accepted a surrender until they had no choice.
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  12. #112
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    From your source :







    The timeline goes through MANY different back and forth of Japan asking for different conditions instead of unconditional surrender. They never actually accept that as a result they are bombed and then miraculously and immediately surrender. These discussions had gone on for months now with no motion forward. Meanwhile our men and treasure were continuing to be lost in the western pacific.

    When you navy is defeated and your people are starving you don't continue to have months after months of discussions on to whether or not they Will surrender. Read your own link and you will find the Japanese government during this entire time was making radio broadcasts to their people that kept them fired up for the fight. The men dying in the Pacific were not fighting the couple of back channels talking to intermediaries in Bern. They were fighting the people fired up by lies.

    I just cant get past folks who defend a people that had no compunction tossing Chinese babies into the air and catching them on bayonets or gang raping Chinese girls for entire battalions before killing them. These were utter savages. They talked and talked and talked for nine months and never accepted a surrender until they had no choice.
    Perhaps you're not familiar with how treaties work in history... each side tries to get the best deal it can based on what leverage is available.

    Japan knew it couldn't win the war. It knew only that it could prolong it through a ground invasion IF unacceptable terms of surrender were the only alternative. That's the leverage. Look, we know we lost but invading us would be really really difficult, so rather than unconditional surrender offer us terms we can accept.

    That's ^ completely normal throughout military history. Making a deal based on relative strength at the time. "Unconditional surrender or nothing" is only typical after devastating and costly defeat usually.

    Look at most treaties in the world or most peace agreements that ended wars. Relatively few of them were unconditional surrenders by one side. So I don't know why you present this as if unconditional surrender (which, as I pointed out before, we wound up yielding on anyway and accepted several of the requested conditions, such as not trying the Emperor as a war criminal) was just the only reasonable way to end that war.

    Certainly when you throw in incinerating 300~,000 civilians as the cost of going from "conditional" to "unconditional" I fail to see how you think you're making a reasonable moral argument here for the use of the nukes.

    The primary motivation on their use was to intimidate Russia who we already knew would be our next big threat. The war was already effectually won against Japan.

    By the way the little snippets you threw in about babies and bayonets can be said about almost any war. What did people say about us after Vietnam? These are the same people btw that our government even after the nukes instructed the troops not to mock, not to celebrate in front of, and to give candy and cigarettes. So what point are you even making, that the nukes were a good way to stick it to these evil people?

    P.S. we didn't nuke brigades of baby-bayonetters. We nuked CITIES.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 30th, 2012 at 04:07 PM.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    P.S. in WWII we bombed cities for five years... week after week day after day. So did the other side. The COST of war and the idea of collateral damage was entirely different. If you didn't support your countries war effort then you would not be there in that country.

    You won't convince me however. I was for carpet bombing Iraq to bring peace. Dead men very rarely become terrorist.

    The point is every country tries to get the best deal sure.... however at some point enough is enough. Their rhetoric to their war fighters did not resemble their desire to surrender if that was a real idea and not simply a communication tactic. As an example the Afghanistan government is talking to Taliban and Al Qaida members in their country and yet those same groups are still bombing citizens and killing cops. the negotiations still continue. DO you think if the Afghanis could drop two bombs and bring the entire thing to an immediate end they would do so? Or would they continue to die honorably one after another because it is the right thing to do?
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    P.S. in WWII we bombed cities for five years... week after week day after day. So did the other side. The COST of war and the idea of collateral damage was entirely different. If you didn't support your countries war effort then you would not be there in that country.

    You won't convince me however. I was for carpet bombing Iraq to bring peace. Dead men very rarely become terrorist.

    The point is every country tries to get the best deal sure.... however at some point enough is enough. Their rhetoric to their war fighters did not resemble their desire to surrender if that was a real idea and not simply a communication tactic. As an example the Afghanistan government is talking to Taliban and Al Qaida members in their country and yet those same groups are still bombing citizens and killing cops. the negotiations still continue. DO you think if the Afghanis could drop two bombs and bring the entire thing to an immediate end they would do so? Or would they continue to die honorably one after another because it is the right thing to do?
    Well you've basically disavowed an interest in trying to come to a resolution with a minimum of needless bloodshed. Your openly stated attitude is basically well the more dead the less likely they can come try to get us. So we're operating from two completely different moral foundations on the topic and we're not going to see eye to eye on it, yeah.

    To me if you can get 80% of what you want and 100% of what you need to end a conflict, killing 300,000 more people to get the other 20% of what you want but don't need is immoral and wrong.

  15. #115
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    To me after almost half a million Americans died in a war we didn't want to be in then there is no reaction too small and no demand too great.

    I believe in massive and overwhelming force. the time for back and forth diplomacy is before the final act of diplomacy is provoked. Once you are at bloodshed then you bring everything you have and you win. Period.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    To me after almost half a million Americans died in a war we didn't want to be in then there is no reaction too small and no demand too great.

    I believe in massive and overwhelming force. the time for back and forth diplomacy is before the final act of diplomacy is provoked. Once you are at bloodshed then you bring everything you have and you win. Period.
    So you are never for ending any war, ever, until we've killed absolutley as many of them as we possibly can?

    Which btw if this is your mindset why even pretend like you cared one whit as to 'why' the nuke was used. lol.

    I give you this much, you would have made a fantastic Mongol under Genghis Khan. They were all for utter destruction of cities and their wholesale depopulations in any campaign and saw no real value in preserving human life or property or in 'occupying' cities rather than just gutting them. But that worldview is about 1000 years out of date.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 30th, 2012 at 04:56 PM.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    I didnt say until you have killed as many as possible. That is what you assume. I said until the unconditional surrender you demand is accepted. It was.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I didnt say until you have killed as many as possible. That is what you assume. I said until the unconditional surrender you demand is accepted. It was.
    That's an extremist mindset closed to reasonable or even beneficial compromise.

    Your whole position here is "anything and everything was justified until unconditional surrender."

    When the condition is "let us keep one guy as symbolic head of state" (or anything equally irrelevant to the total military victory) and you justify killing 300k civilians over that your position isn't moral, it's Machiavellian as a kind word for evil.

    Oh and by the way... they wound up keeping the Emperor anyway. So the one condition you're insisting was so important was never demanded anyway.

    You'd actually be better off going with the "it was used to showcase the weapon to Russia" argument because then at least there was an ACTUAL reason to use them and not "no reason whatsoever."
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 30th, 2012 at 05:03 PM.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This I believe is why Jack presented it as a concern about the "impact of war" rather than as a Rep/Dem issue... even though I doubt he considered this a big problem under Bush and I doubt he'd be making these nitpicks about how Romney was using them if he were President today. There'd probably not even be much to comment on since Obama's been fairly transparent with this and Republicans rarely if ever are.
    Agreed. Technology has changed war. First off there is a logical reason for carrier groups that can strike fast with high speed jet fighters, and bombers at far range. Vastly superior to the old days of having to have access and cost of a landing field.
    In the interviews I've seen with the men who flew the nuclear bombs to Japan some would likely not have done it had the realized what the hell was below but from their vantage point the main danger was the weapon and more importantly the distance as well as the quality of the B-29 and B-26. For them it was a mission there was no real resistance from the destroyed Japanese air force or military when those bombs were dropped all were in shreds.
    The same is true with Iraq in 2003. The military was not there, it was never seen other then the one propaganda minster. It was all destroyed in Kuwait in 1991. Iraq had nearly nothing left and we never saw vast columns of well equipped uniformed infantry or any of the Russian era aircraft in 2003, because there was none.
    The war in the air was one way. B-52's and stealth B-1's "Shock and AWE" but now we have outrage over fucking drones?????

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Oh there were many reasons that weapon was used. However you seem unable to grasp why endless surrender talks are conducted. I suppose our American soldiers that died during that last nine months was hunky dory to you? To me it was uncalled for and if they had the bomb working and tested in the spring they should have used it then.

    See for you the idea of a city and civilizations being bombed is unrealistic. 72 million people died in WWII so the idea of 300,000 is astonishing in these days of five thousand wounded in war.... yet in light of 72 million dead... it isn't a stretch at all. Hell it doesn't even move the needle.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Oh there were many reasons that weapon was used. However you seem unable to grasp why endless surrender talks are conducted. I suppose our American soldiers that died during that last nine months was hunky dory to you?
    So the use of them was revenge?

    See for you the idea of a city and civilizations being bombed is unrealistic. 72 million people died in WWII so the idea of 300,000 is astonishing in these days of five thousand wounded in war.... yet in light of 72 million dead... it isn't a stretch at all. Hell it doesn't even move the needle.
    Lynchings are cool because x thousand people die every year?

  22. #122

    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    ^^^

    I think you need to read some accounts of how allied military prisoners were treated by the Japanese during WWII. It might put some things in perspective for you.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    ^^ Personally?

    I'm one of those Americans who think that the U.S. shouldn't apologize for Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.

    The Japanese never apologized, to my knowledge, for the horrors that the Imperial Japanese Armed Forces rained down on millions of Chinese, Southeast Asians, South Pacific Islanders, the whole of the Philippines, Burma, and Pearl Harbor.

    However, imagine if the U.S. had drones then?

    Take out the Emperor in his Imperial Palace, along with Tojo and others, and watch the house of cards crumble.

    There never would have been a need for nukes.
    I tend to agree but the entire event maybe could have not happened with the A-bomb? I do know that when you read on Japan unit 731 and what they did to Chinese is sickening, it makes the Nazi death camps look mild, and the angel of death was a kid compared to the hacking the Japanese unit 731 performed. They were horrible fucking vile beast and merciless. They were merciless to the allied POWS as well, horrific butchers in that day.
    Just as grotesque is how the US in the surrender of the Japanese agreed to not go after the unit 731 in fact part of the treaty was to surrender what was learned in those horrific experiments done on humans as Japan guinea pigged Asia in its quest.
    In this light I would have to go with all technology that allows for the more powerful country to win with the fewest causalities has merit, but it all sucks.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ^^^

    I think you need to read some accounts of how allied military prisoners were treated by the Japanese during WWII. It might put some things in perspective for you.
    It's actually completely irrelevant unless you believe in revenge and you believe in letting an enemy you're happy to denounce as vile or inhumane set the standards by which you yourself will behave as a nation.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Killing other nationalities to bring them to final surrender instead of dancing around the idea for nine fucking months is HARDLY chopping babies up and eating livers. Perhaps you have a lower view of how humanity should behave.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It's actually completely irrelevant unless you believe in revenge and you believe in letting an enemy you're happy to denounce as vile or inhumane set the standards by which you yourself will behave as a nation.
    It was meant as a balance to your comments about WWII.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    It was meant as a balance to your comments about WWII.
    It actually has absolutely nothing to do with the specific decision as to whether live-test the nuclear bomb on real people in a civilian city unless you believe the actions of POW camps or military scientists overseas justifies revenge killing on civilians.

    Which if either of you DO believe in that, you have no business being upset or even so much as criticizing anyone else when Americans get decapitated or whatever else overseas by people who hate our foreign policy.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Killing other nationalities to bring them to final surrender instead of dancing around the idea for nine fucking months is HARDLY chopping babies up and eating livers. Perhaps you have a lower view of how humanity should behave.
    You're dodging my point which is that the 'un' part of 'unconditional' involved demanding something we didn't actually care about enough to end up claiming anyway... bringing Hirohito to trial as a war criminal.

    So in effect we nuked them for absolutely nothing.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    You still dont get the context of time.... lets see what you know of the conflict... how many of the 72 million dead were civilians in cities?
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You still dont get the context of time.... lets see what you know of the conflict... how many of the 72 million dead were civilians in cities?
    Alright so if there's no particularly noteworthy effect of the use of a nuclear weapon on a civilian area in the context of a greater war where civilians have died why not use them in Korea? Vietnam? Iraq?

    I'm HOPING your answer won't be "well I think we should have."

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You're dodging my point which is that the 'un' part of 'unconditional' involved demanding something we didn't actually care about enough to end up claiming anyway... bringing Hirohito to trial as a war criminal.

    So in effect we nuked them for absolutely nothing.
    The other part they balked on if you look at the CIA link was for China signing the surrender... they took it as a insult. "Well excuse the fuck out of me dick head you lost...." would be my basic and unceremonious diplomatic response. Plus their rhetoric to their people which was driving the continued fervor on the islands to die to the last man killing as many Americans as possible. Nine months... care to guess how many Americans died during that nine months?
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The other part they balked on if you look at the CIA link was for China signing the surrender... they took it as a insult. "Well excuse the fuck out of me dick head you lost...." would be my basic and unceremonious diplomatic response. Plus their rhetoric to their people which was driving the continued fervor on the islands to die to the last man killing as many Americans as possible. Nine months... care to guess how many Americans died during that nine months?
    That's utterly irrelevant because at the time the actual decision was made the war was won and all that was left was the main Japanese home islands.

    Talking about how many people died before hasno bearing on anything unless as I've said multiple times now, you believe in revenge against a beaten enemy willing to surrender.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Alright so if there's no particularly noteworthy effect of the use of a nuclear weapon on a civilian area in the context of a greater war where civilians have died why not use them in Korea? Vietnam? Iraq?

    I'm HOPING your answer won't be "well I think we should have."
    The goals were different for one. For two After WWII and before Korea we tested nucs live on our own soldiers and found out how horrifying the continuing effects were. That changes opinions and means our desire NOT to do that makes us entirely unlike the people who ate livers and chopped up babies.

    Interestingly since you seem unschooled in the various arts of warfare.... just an aside:

    Did you know that in WWII one in ten soldiers was shooting to kill regardless of sides? Did you know we revamped our training procedures for the US military after Korea and during Vietnam to increase that to 7 in 10? It is basic human nature not to kill however the Japanese had already decided that the people they faced were not as superior as God's people and therefore they had no impunity in how they treated those people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That's utterly irrelevant because at the time the actual decision was made the war was won and all that was left was the main Japanese home islands.

    Talking about how many people died before hasno bearing on anything unless as I've said multiple times now, you believe in revenge against a beaten enemy willing to surrender.
    You state I believe in revenge because you are ignorant to the times and the effects of nine months of war. That is your idea not mine.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Oh there were many reasons that weapon was used. However you seem unable to grasp why endless surrender talks are conducted. I suppose our American soldiers that died during that last nine months was hunky dory to you? To me it was uncalled for and if they had the bomb working and tested in the spring they should have used it then.

    See for you the idea of a city and civilizations being bombed is unrealistic. 72 million people died in WWII so the idea of 300,000 is astonishing in these days of five thousand wounded in war.... yet in light of 72 million dead... it isn't a stretch at all. Hell it doesn't even move the needle.
    Yes but in the last months our troops are not in the same war as WWII. This is not a industrialized war of the past with a government solidly backing it as such. This is a fluid mobile group of fanatical s. Bombing them to the stone age doesn't work when they are already in a country that isn't much past nomadic tribes and war lords.
    They simply go elsewhere. You can not win a war when the the people waging it have no problem with sewing bombs into their own guts, or pilot a plane to their own demise the idea doesn't die with the destruction of the playing field. It moves on to another venue.
    These terrorist who claimed Afghanistan are not from there but the land is ripe for them. These terrorist are well educated, they are not stupid. They are well financed and they have back up plans in case the host country is bombed. Its like trying to kill a roach, you never can get them only set them back for a time.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Oh I haven't delved into Afghanistan or terrorist or the changed war front of this new century. I agree you cant bomb into submission those with no value placed in the land or the area.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The goals were different for one. For two After WWII and before Korea we tested nucs live on our own soldiers and found out how horrifying the continuing effects were. That changes opinions and means our desire NOT to do that makes us entirely unlike the people who ate livers and chopped up babies.
    I am getting seriously offended that you are broadbrushing the entire Japanese race as "chopped up baby eaters." By that exact same logic are all Americans baby napalmers and Iraqi village rapists?

    I'm seriously asking you to stop with that because it's getting offensive and it's not contributing to you making a point at all. It has already been said that the nuke was dropped on a city, not on a "brigade of baby eating soldiers." So that's another stupid comment you're making in lieu of a point.

    Interestingly since you seem unschooled in the various arts of warfare.... just an aside:
    Yeah the guy who hasn't heard of anything other than unconditional surrender says this.

    Did you know that in WWII one in ten soldiers was shooting to kill regardless of sides? Did you know we revamped our training procedures for the US military after Korea and during Vietnam to increase that to 7 in 10? It is basic human nature not to kill however the Japanese had already decided that the people they faced were not as superior as God's people and therefore they had no impunity in how they treated those people.
    Many of the Japanese who came in to surrender were physically shaking because they'd heard stories about how Americans were enormous tall giant violent ogre-people with no regard for life. This happens both ways in every war and you're spouting the same crap we could have said about ANY enemy in ANY war we've EVER fought, no matter who they were. People say the same thing about terrorists today and we'll say it about every enemy we ever fight and they will say it about us. Get some perspective.

    You state I believe in revenge because you are ignorant to the times and the effects of nine months of war. That is your idea not mine.
    You saying "using the nukes is fine even when a country is beaten and wants to surrender because of the casualties we suffered."

    There's no interpretation of that other than that you believe in immature spite killing.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Being offended - That was a way the entire military of Japan was acting noty some isolated incidents called to task by a newly present media that wasn't apologetic to the cause. Please do some reading on how the Japanese army conducted themselves. This was not ISOLOATED it was policy.

    On propaganda - Why pray tell do you think the Japanese thought we were giant ogres? Was it our media portraying that? Was it us or was it Japanese propaganda? Was it the same propaganda they aired nightly telling their people to fight to the death while at the same time working on a peace initiative for NINE months?

    Revenge - No it isn't because OF the casualties we suffered. it is because we re were continuing to suffer casualties and they would not ACTUALLY surrender. At some point enough is enough and it is time to convince a people they have lost without any more loss of life for American.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Being offended - That was a way the entire military of Japan was acting noty some isolated incidents called to task by a newly present media that wasn't apologetic to the cause. Please do some reading on how the Japanese army conducted themselves. This was not ISOLOATED it was policy.
    I don't need to do any reading. I'm shocked that I need to say to YOU something that I already said to JACK as I put you in entirely a superior league mentally. Don't come to me and tell me to morally justify what WE do to civilian targets by pointing at what THEIR MILITARY does. You want to let KGB, Islamic terrorists or Vietcong set our rules of engagement and how we conduct ourselves? That's a recipe for nothing but being exactly as bad as they are, and if you feel that's an appropriate mindset, then you have utterly no business so much as dropping a single word about the bad things that they did because your position is we should do them too. In fact you should be praising those baby bayonets as bringing OVERWHELMING FORCE against their enemies. You should be saluting it no?

    You lose the moral highground entirely when you justify doing bad things because you say the enemy does them too. At that point just stop even bitching about what's okay or not because morality is out the window.

    On propaganda - Why pray tell do you think the Japanese thought we were giant ogres? Was it our media portraying that? Was it us or was it Japanese propaganda? Was it the same propaganda they aired nightly telling their people to fight to the death while at the same time working on a peace initiative for NINE months?
    It was Japanese propaganda just like propaganda which has you spouting nonsense about cutting up babies and eating them. That's why I said get some perspective. You're not making ANY argument that someone who fights AGAINST us couldn't make equally as validly to justify anything they do to us or to our civilians. You are unwittingly making a defense case for when people decapitate or torture American citizens because they don't like our foreign policy or because our foreign policy or our military interventions have caused them harm or loss or casualties. THat's what you're doing. Think about that.

    Revenge - No it isn't because OF the casualties we suffered. it is because we re were continuing to suffer casualties and they would not ACTUALLY surrender. At some point enough is enough and it is time to convince a people they have lost without any more loss of life for American.
    What are you talking about? We had the home islands cut off, the navy was destroyed, the Yamato had gone down under a hail of torpedoes and it was a last ditch defense the Japanese had been making at breakneck in the home ports, they were cut off from oil and fuel, they didn't have ships and they didn't have planes.

    No, using the nukes because "we were still suffering at that very moment enormous casualties" is a flat falsehood.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 30th, 2012 at 06:10 PM.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Your history is wrong. A country that still stubbornly believed it could win would not have sent attempts to negotiate a surrender twice. Their sole condition was the request that the Emperor be allowed to remain as a symbolic head of state, and the answer given was "nothing short of unconditional surrender"... and after we dropped the bombs to show them off to Russia, we ended up giving them that condition anyway.

    We nuked those people for no reason. The whole "we would have lost 300k men in a ground invasion" was a farce. There's no need to ground invade a country that is already trying to surrender to you.
    This is correct. A neutral party tried to get a Japanese observer allowed at a nuclear test, in hopes that if they saw one going off then they might surrender -- but they were ignored. I will never understand the mind that refused that effort or the surrender offers.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Japan was not trying to surrender.

    I find it amusing that people forget (conveniently) that island by Island the Japanese fought to the death every single man on the island because defeat was not acceptable. They also thought they could assume our power by eating the livers of the POW's they had captured.

    The LIE that Japan was trying to surrender is some Hollywood made up version of life where everyone really wants to be happy and war doesn't exist.
    Odd, because in biographies of Truman, MacArthur, and Eisenhower that my mom has, the three different historians say that Japan did.

    It's interesting that one effort to surrender was put together by businessmen who didn't want the military to turn the islands into a funeral pyre for the emperor -- not sure how that was supposed to work.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The point is every country tries to get the best deal sure.... however at some point enough is enough. Their rhetoric to their war fighters did not resemble their desire to surrender if that was a real idea and not simply a communication tactic. As an example the Afghanistan government is talking to Taliban and Al Qaida members in their country and yet those same groups are still bombing citizens and killing cops. the negotiations still continue. DO you think if the Afghanis could drop two bombs and bring the entire thing to an immediate end they would do so? Or would they continue to die honorably one after another because it is the right thing to do?
    Of course it did: they're not going to try to surrender while it looks like they have to, they're going to keep up fighting with everything they've got in order to show a stronger bargaining position.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Well you've basically disavowed an interest in trying to come to a resolution with a minimum of needless bloodshed. Your openly stated attitude is basically well the more dead the less likely they can come try to get us. So we're operating from two completely different moral foundations on the topic and we're not going to see eye to eye on it, yeah.
    Genghis Khan comes to mind....

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I didnt say until you have killed as many as possible. That is what you assume. I said until the unconditional surrender you demand is accepted. It was.
    So you'd give hearty approval if Israel just lined up bulldozers and shoved all of Gaza into Egypt?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ^^^

    I think you need to read some accounts of how allied military prisoners were treated by the Japanese during WWII. It might put some things in perspective for you.
    That was General Leslie Groves' argument for dropping another half dozen bombs. And he figured that a whole bunch of dead Japs wouldn't be starting any more wars.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You saying "using the nukes is fine even when a country is beaten and wants to surrender because of the casualties we suffered."

    There's no interpretation of that other than that you believe in immature spite killing.
    That does seem to be what he's saying.

    JH, yours sounds like the sort of reasoning that kept blood feuds alive for centuries.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    At some point enough is enough and it is time to convince a people they have lost without any more loss of life for American.
    It doesn't take incineration of women, children, churches, homes, libraries, schools, and more to do that.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Gee golly I wonder why the Japanese rejected the Potsdam Proclamation ?? I wonder why the military leading the war effort attempted a coup to prevent surrender even after the bombs had been dropped and they knew they would die as a nation.

    I suppose you are fully entitled to that view Buzzer and Juli but you would be wrong. I have not and do not advocate the use of the bomb to end conflicts but in that situation it was the correct move. In light of all that had occurred. That isn't revenge either. It is being sensitive to the time in which the decision was made.

    So tell me after five years and 72 million people had died MOST in their own cities from bombs on both sides then how different is 300 thousand?
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It doesn't take incineration of women, children, churches, homes, libraries, schools, and more to do that.
    Then why did we destroy city after city to win WWII? Ever been to Europe? There are areas of Germany that have been completely wiped off the planet and then rebuilt. Why did Hitler bomb the UK day after day?

    It was the mindset of war. You see it effected in Korea and Vietnam where carpet bombing occurred to subdue the enemy. However at that point after knowing the full effect of nuclear weapons we did not use tactical or larger nucs in those campaigns.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Gee golly I wonder why the Japanese rejected the Potsdam Proclamation ?? I wonder why the military leading the war effort attempted a coup to prevent surrender even after the bombs had been dropped and they knew they would die as a nation.

    I suppose you are fully entitled to that view Buzzer and Juli but you would be wrong. I have not and do not advocate the use of the bomb to end conflicts but in that situation it was the correct move. In light of all that had occurred. That isn't revenge either. It is being sensitive to the time in which the decision was made.

    So tell me after five years and 72 million people had died MOST in their own cities from bombs on both sides then how different is 300 thousand?
    It's different because it was not necessary. And you have not shown anywhere persuasively that it was necessary. All you've said is "eh among 72 million dead what's another 300k?" Well if the 300k came after the enemy was trying to surrender then it was excessive and it was unnecessary. We DID have a reason for doing it-- it just isn't the one you are trying to say it is. We had already won this war. We expected the next one to be with Russia. Japan is right on Russia's backdoorstep. We had a new weapon, we wanted them to see we had it.

    That's why it's different.

  50. #150
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Code of Conduct

    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    The unconditional surrender we sought was removing all gains the Japanese had made prior to us entering the war. They had taken large portions of China and southeast Asia as resource supplies. It was NOT just the imperial succession or keeping the line. Please read more on the war.

    Here is an article that agrees with you about using the bomb BUT removes many of your assumptions about the Japanese.

    http://voices.yahoo.com/the-atomic-b...94.html?cat=37

    The enemy was talking conditions. And the Russians were about to get into the war. How wonderful would have been a cold war on two fronts with Tokyo split down the middle? There are larger issues at work. And to be quite honest achieving those goals was worth the price in blood of our enemies.

    To your previous point about us being similar because of the crimes in Vietnam.... ten million Chinese civilians were killed in China by the Japanese. Ten Million.... yup just a few bad apples in the Japanese Army. Vietnam was a TOTAL of all at the highest number estimated of 3 million... that is including legitimate warrior on warrior legal killing. That warrior count was a little over a million including both sides. The civilian side was two million... I just dont get how you apply modern concepts of collateral damage to WWII. it has no place in context.

    Finally my entire point about the 'senseless' bombing is that is a today mindset. It has zero to do with how the world thought in WWII. Otherwise why did we and the axis powers bomb civilian populations for five years?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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