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  1. #51
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Bush went to Congress on both Iraq and Afghanistan and got approval from both side of the isle. It was all out in the open.

    Stop trying to make it something it wasn't.

    Hell, even Obama called the war in Afghanistan "the good war"

    Democrats have started their own fair share of wars -- WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam to name several.
    You cite bipartisan support as cover to deflect the point made by JayHawk, but you didn't actually address the point made by JayHawk.

    He was not addressing the legitimacy of the war itself (which has bipartisan approval).
    He was addressing the method of conducting the war using drones (which you acknowledge began under Bush, but primarily criticise on a partisan basis as being an Obama failing).

    If you consider the continuing use of drones as a partisan failing of President Obama, then it is fair to examine your recommended approach to war in partisan terms. Which is to make war more deadly for US soldiers. JayHawk has sustained his point, and you have tried to distract by changing the subject to the legitimacy of the war itself rather than your original critique about the techniques employed.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  2. #52
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    So the US started using drones in 2004 in Pakistan.

    Why are they now suddenly illegal?

  3. #53
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Bush went to Congress on both Iraq and Afghanistan and got approval from both side of the isle. It was all out in the open.

    Stop trying to make it something it wasn't.

    Hell, even Obama called the war in Afghanistan "the good war"

    Democrats have started their own fair share of wars -- WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam to name several.
    Not talking about Afghanistan. We are currently under the WAR of Terror with expansive powers granted by congress which gives Obama all the leeway he needs to execute the war on terror globally. That was courtesy of the republican party. What are you saying you don't like your policy?

    Staying on topic, Bush used Condoleeza Rice to LIE to congress about the nature of the intelligence that purported WMD and that is how so many congress critters were convinced to send thousands of our American servicemen and women to their deaths. Not to mention Tens of thousands of children in Iraq. ALL based on lies that were told by the Rice John McCain defended in having the SoS position after she lied and Americans died.

    Being against a drone war because you hate war is one thing. Being against a drone war because you prefer Americans dying to safer versions of warfare is fucking ignorant ___deleted because you know what i think about cowards who wouldn't stand up to actually put their life on the line for the conflicts they support.... no need to personally say so..........
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  4. #54

    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You cite bipartisan support as cover to deflect the point made by JayHawk, but you didn't actually address the point made by JayHawk.

    He was not addressing the legitimacy of the war itself (which has bipartisan approval).
    He was addressing the method of conducting the war using drones (which you acknowledge began under Bush, but primarily criticise on a partisan basis as being an Obama failing).

    If you consider the continuing use of drones as a partisan failing of President Obama, then it is fair to examine your recommended approach to war in partisan terms. Which is to make war more deadly for US soldiers. JayHawk has sustained his point, and you have tried to distract by changing the subject to the legitimacy of the war itself rather than your original critique about the techniques employed.
    Obama has expanded the use of drones and is using them in a different way than Bush did - he personally picks the targets -- the President should not get that involved -- he's setting himself up for trouble.

    Again -- I wasn't a fan of drones during the Bush Admin. either.

    Maybe I shouldn't have involved Obama in the discussion so people wouldn't have taken the usual sides.

    Drones are bad for civilians and the military.

  5. #55
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Obama has expanded the use of drones and is using them in a different way than Bush did - he personally picks the targets -- the President should not get that involved -- he's setting himself up for trouble.

    Again -- I wasn't a fan of drones during the Bush Admin. either.

    Maybe I shouldn't have involved Obama in the discussion so people wouldn't have taken the usual sides.

    Drones are bad for civilians and the military.
    You are aware that President Obama is not throwing darts at a map to pick the targets, right? He is commander in chief. And he is expecting his generals to make a case for his approval of every target rather than delegating it. That makes the president directly accountable. Given your misgivings about the technology, I would have thought you'd see that at as an improvement. The buck stops with him. He has confidence in the appropriate use of the technology and is willing to own it if something goes wrong or is done improperly. He will never be able to have his own Oliver North to blame. And that introduces the most powerful kind of accountability. You can be sure the generals feel the pressure to play by the rules and get it right like they never did under Bush Jr. It is to Obama's credit that he takes this approach and actually demonstrates direct responsibility.
    Last edited by bankside; November 29th, 2012 at 08:05 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  6. #56
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Obama has expanded the use of drones and is using them in a different way than Bush did - he personally picks the targets --
    Maybe if Bush had cared enough to be that involved we wouldn't have had quite so many mass civilian casualties as we did during his administration's handling of the war.

    From everything I saw he was far more concerned with banning official body counts in the hospitals we administered and banning pictures of casualties than of actually running the war well and getting the objectives accomplished with as few casualties as possible.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This sounds theoretical to me though, I mean do we actually have demonstrable proof this works and doesn't take 30+ years of strangulation that hurts the entire country? North Korea's regime is still in power, and Iran's, Saddam's regime never fell until we actually got troops on the ground.

    In other words I don't see why we're discussing "let's change the strategy in Afghanistan, let's pull out and do to it what we did to Sadadam's regime for 20 years (and failed to topple it with) and get rid of the Taliban that way", I don't see how that's an effective plan.
    North Korea's situation is different, because we've never actually deprived them of things they had -- so no one got upset that things were taken away. Ever since the Korean War they've been at subsistence levels, and if that's all they've ever know, they're not going to get upset about it -- especially since they have no way to learn what the outside world is actually like.

    Neither Iraq nor Iran have every actually been cut off; France, Russia and others kept dealing with them despite other embargoes.

    The critical point is that they have to be brought to a situation where they can't support their own military, and where their standard of living is noticeably dropping. Once both army and populace and unhappy, things will change.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    North Korea's situation is different, because we've never actually deprived them of things they had -- so no one got upset that things were taken away. Ever since the Korean War they've been at subsistence levels, and if that's all they've ever know, they're not going to get upset about it -- especially since they have no way to learn what the outside world is actually like.

    Neither Iraq nor Iran have every actually been cut off; France, Russia and others kept dealing with them despite other embargoes.

    The critical point is that they have to be brought to a situation where they can't support their own military, and where their standard of living is noticeably dropping. Once both army and populace and unhappy, things will change.
    This sounds like group punishment to me.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

    Anyhow long story short is, if the answer is "yes it can work but we have to harm the quality of life of the people in Afghanistan worse than Iraq or North Korea first" I'm out as far as supporting it.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 29th, 2012 at 12:27 PM.

  9. #59
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Sanctions and isolation usually impact the public the most while the leaders keep living in their palaces.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    I'm just worried they'll invent one that's intelligent and order it to kill nasty people who start wars and it will turn around and start killing Americans...

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    I'm just worried they'll invent one that's intelligent and order it to kill nasty people who start wars and it will turn around and start killing Americans...
    Yyyyeaaaah, that only happens in comic books really...
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  12. #62

    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You are aware that President Obama is not throwing darts at a map to pick the targets, right? He is commander in chief. And he is expecting his generals to make a case for his approval of every target rather than delegating it. That makes the president directly accountable. Given your misgivings about the technology, I would have thought you'd see that at as an improvement. The buck stops with him. He has confidence in the appropriate use of the technology and is willing to own it if something goes wrong or is done improperly. He will never be able to have his own Oliver North to blame. And that introduces the most powerful kind of accountability. You can be sure the generals feel the pressure to play by the rules and get it right like they never did under Bush Jr. It is to Obama's credit that he takes this approach and actually demonstrates direct responsibility.
    He's laying out cards on a table every week and picking who to kill. I'm saying that is a little too involved for a President of the United States. The is work for the CIA.

  13. #63
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    He's laying out cards on a table every week and picking who to kill. I'm saying that is a little too involved for a President of the United States. The is work for the CIA.
    You're referring to Bush's running of the Iraq War where things like Abu Graib happen and then there's a whole slippery explosion of who what no um those decisions were made blah blah what I wasn't responsible plausible deniability thanks.

  14. #64
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Bush went to Congress on both Iraq and Afghanistan and got approval from both side of the isle. It was all out in the open.

    Stop trying to make it something it wasn't.

    Hell, even Obama called the war in Afghanistan "the good war"


    Democrats have started their own fair share of wars -- WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam to name several.
    As a Moderator I'm still reviewing this whole thread, but I had to stop with this post right here.

    If my public school education, and the money that I spend every month just on a "basic cable package" and my ability to watch the History Channel, I've been told that the Germans started the WWI, the Japanese started WWII, I'm still not clear what was going on with Korea (even though I have ancestors who fought in that "forgotten war"), and Vietnam was clearly a 'we can do better than the French,' and the Military Industrial Complex had something to benefit from it.

    BUT because Woodrow Wilson D-New Jersey, FDR D-New York, Harry S. Truman D-Missouri, and LBJ D-Texas were President at the time:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer
    Democrats have started their own fair share of wars
    That absolves you as a 'merican.

    That or it more clearly defines you as a Republican.

    This thread is nothing more than a "circle jerk."

    If a Republican was in the White House, the mythological "15%" around here would be defending the Drone War for "Protecting our Freedom," and "Keeping Our Troops Out of Harms Way."

    Except that a Democrat is still in the White House, and he's using Drones more deliberately, strategically, and with more accuracy.

    And which President let that horse out of the barn?

    Hint: G.W. Bush R-Texas.

    It wasn't a Democrat, and I didn't hear anyone getting their panties in a wad then.

    Now I'm going to go back to cleaning up this thread.

    If some of y'all see some of your posts missing, get over it.
    Last edited by CTF; November 29th, 2012 at 01:26 PM.
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  15. #65
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    It is amazing that the estimated 60,000 innocent Iraqi casualties don't seem to trouble the reactionary Obama haters in the least.

    But a targeted drone attack that may produce collateral deaths in the 10's of victims....that is cause for declaring Obama is a war criminal.

    Y'all have some pretty fucked up math there Jack.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    It is amazing that the estimated 60,000 innocent Iraqi casualties don't seem to trouble the reactionary Obama haters in the least.

    But a targeted drone attack that may produce collateral deaths in the 10's of victims....that is cause for declaring Obama is a war criminal.

    Y'all have some pretty fucked up math there Jack.
    Yeah well, it was Obama who signed TARP into legislation thus driving up the largest "deficit in American" history.

    The Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) is a program of the United States government to purchase assets and equity from financial institutions to strengthen its financial sector that was signed into law by U.S. President George W. Bush on October 3, 2008. It was a component of the government's measures in 2008 to address the subprime mortgage crisis.
    But in reality Obama/Biden was elected over John McCain/Sarah Palin just over a month later, so it's Obama who's been fucking us since then.

    At least according to Conservatives, Fox News, and the Tea Party.

    But why quibble?
    Last edited by CTF; November 29th, 2012 at 02:21 PM.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post

    BUT because Woodrow Wilson D-New Jersey, FDR D-New York, Harry S. Truman D-Missouri, and LBJ D-Texas were President at the time:
    Let's not blame Wilson on NJ. Although he was governor, prior to becoming president, he was born in Virginia, not New Jersey. Grover Cleveland was a Jersey boy. He was born in Caldwell, where The Sopranos was filmed.
    Last edited by jackoroe; November 29th, 2012 at 04:05 PM.

  18. #68
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Yeah well, it was Obama who signed TARP into legislation thus driving up the largest "deficit in American" history.



    But in reality Obama/Biden was elected over John McCain/Sarah Palin just over a month later, so it's Obama who's been fucking us since then.

    At least according to Conservatives, Fox News, and the Tea Party.

    But why quibble?
    Why quibble indeed.

    Much more fun to enjoy watching the liars and haters bathe in a mixture of their own tears and flop sweat.

  19. #69
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Why quibble indeed.

    Much more fun to enjoy watching the liars and haters bathe in a mixture of their own tears and flop sweat.
    I think our inability to see that Democrats doing minimal amounts of something Republicans do massive amounts of = Democrats are worse and completely incompetent is a side effect of the fact that we take drugs and worship Obama. And we're part of some 85% cult thing that I don't fully understand but seems to get referenced a lot.

    At least, that's the story I seem to get around here.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoroe View Post
    Let's not blame Wilson on NJ. Although he was governor, prior to becoming president, he was born in Virginia, not New Jersey. Grover Cleveland was a Jersey boy. He was born in Caldwell, where The Sopranos was filmed.
    I know full well where Woodrow Wilson is from, and that he was the last "History Professor" to ever serve as President.

    Later President of Princeton University, then Governor of New Jersey.

    I won't hold a Southern Boy serving as your Governor, if you don't hold a Connecticut Born Yankee Texas Governor turned President against me.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I think our inability to see that Democrats doing minimal amounts of something Republicans do massive amounts of = Democrats are worse and completely incompetent is a side effect of the fact that we take drugs and worship Obama. And we're part of some 85% cult thing that I don't fully understand but seems to get referenced a lot.

    At least, that's the story I seem to get around here.
    Well fuck me for going around "poisoning the well" with the facts.

    I don't want friends who agree with me all the time, and I don't much care for people IRL who can't at least agree to disagree.
    Last edited by CTF; November 29th, 2012 at 04:33 PM.
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  21. #71

    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    As a Moderator I'm still reviewing this whole thread, but I had to stop with this post right here.

    If my public school education, and the money that I spend every month just on a "basic cable package" and my ability to watch the History Channel, I've been told that the Germans started the WWI, the Japanese started WWII, I'm still not clear what was going on with Korea (even though I have ancestors who fought in that "forgotten war"), and Vietnam was clearly a 'we can do better than the French,' and the Military Industrial Complex had something to benefit from it.

    BUT because Woodrow Wilson D-New Jersey, FDR D-New York, Harry S. Truman D-Missouri, and LBJ D-Texas were President at the time:



    That absolves you as a 'merican.

    That or it more clearly defines you as a Republican.

    This thread is nothing more than a "circle jerk."

    If a Republican was in the White House, the mythological "15%" around here would be defending the Drone War for "Protecting our Freedom," and "Keeping Our Troops Out of Harms Way."

    Except that a Democrat is still in the White House, and he's using Drones more deliberately, strategically, and with more accuracy.

    And which President let that horse out of the barn?

    Hint: G.W. Bush R-Texas.

    It wasn't a Democrat, and I didn't hear anyone getting their panties in a wad then.

    Now I'm going to go back to cleaning up this thread.

    If some of y'all see some of your posts missing, get over it.
    Of course, you're correct. Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, and Kennedy were all angels. They did nothing to promote those wars and were only forced to enter them because of the evil republicans. As always republicans are the mean ones - the ones who cause all the trouble. If only they would go away -- all the problems would be solved.

    Sorry Centex -- I'm not buying it. The details in history are very complex.

    Don't forget Bush went to Congress and got approval from democrats for both wars.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Of course, you're correct. Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, and Kennedy were all angels. They did nothing to promote those wars and were only forced to enter them because of the evil republicans. As always republicans are the mean ones - the ones who cause all the trouble. If only they would go away -- all the problems would be solved.

    Sorry Centex -- I'm not buying it. The details in history are very complex.

    Don't forget Bush went to Congress and got approval from democrats for both wars.
    Wait-- you dispute the historical record on how WWI and WWII started? Perhaps you also think JFK secretly worked with the Russians to have them put nuclear weapons in Cuba?

    Seriously this is getting beyond the point of insane.

    Also I love how the excuse for horrible wars started by Republicans is "well you guys didn't STOP US!"

    Do you have any sense of proportion or responsibility at all towards your own party, whatsoever?

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Of course, you're correct. Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, and Kennedy were all angels. They did nothing to promote those wars and were only forced to enter them because of the evil republicans. As always republicans are the mean ones - the ones who cause all the trouble. If only they would go away -- all the problems would be solved.

    Sorry Centex -- I'm not buying it. The details in history are very complex.

    Don't forget Bush went to Congress and got approval from democrats for both wars.
    Really?

    This is your response?

    BOO FUCKING HOO!

    I hate to be the one to break this to you, but Americans are more than just two parties.

    When it's crunch time, Americans UNITE together and THAT is our Strength as a Country.

    When the World Trade Center came crashing to the ground on September 11, 2001, as the whole world watched, Americans came together.

    We didn't give a shit who was Gay, Straight, Muslim, Christian, or Jew America, legal, or illegal Americans, WE were attacked.

    It didn't take long for the Republicans to take 9/11 and turn it into a "divisive issue."

    While they squandered our Nations Treasury based upon Lies of WMDs in Iraq, declared "Mission Accomplished" on the aircraft carrier Lincoln docked off of the coast of San Diego but "photographed" so that no one could see the California coastline, months and years before thousands of America's best and brightest died in combat so that Republicans could make their wars a political issue against the next Democratic President.

    Then spend those years, as they try desperately to cling on to power, telling people like you and others what they should be afraid of, and who to blame for it.

    Hint: It isn't THEM; Republicans.

    So Please.

    I'm begging you.

    Stop the god damned "pearl clutching" and get a grip!

    I don't see you as a cardboard two-dimensional person, so please stop treating those who don't agree with you as such.
    Last edited by CTF; November 29th, 2012 at 05:25 PM.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This sounds like group punishment to me.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

    Anyhow long story short is, if the answer is "yes it can work but we have to harm the quality of life of the people in Afghanistan worse than Iraq or North Korea first" I'm out as far as supporting it.
    In a book of military fiction I once read, it was called "war without bullets". It's probably easier on the people than an invasion would be.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Geiri85 View Post
    Sanctions and isolation usually impact the public the most while the leaders keep living in their palaces.
    The idea is to impact the public, and the military, enough that those two entities kick out the ones making the policies that hurt the nation.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The idea is to impact the public, and the military, enough that those two entities kick out the ones making the policies that hurt the nation.
    That's the idea but I don't see it working.

    Talk to many people from Iran? Most everyday Iranians will tell you, Iran is not a backwards hyper-fundamentalist-Muslim nation by and large. It has that element to it but the only reason it holds onto power is because of the constant saber-rattling from the west which lets Akmed and the ruling regime get up in front of the cameras and talk about how they are the only thing standing in between Iran and an all-out destruction of the country by the U.S. and its allies. And we give them just enough saber rattling to lend credence to that claim in just enough people that they support the regime.

    Your everyday Iranian wants to wear jeans, buy American music, put on lipstick and get a med school degree. Not throttle Israelis to death with their bare hands... regardless of the propaganda.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    I get the idea... I'm just not buying that it works.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yyyyeaaaah, that only happens in comic books really...
    So far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    He's laying out cards on a table every week and picking who to kill. I'm saying that is a little too involved for a President of the United States. The is work for the CIA.
    I figured you out: you live in a comic book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Of course, you're correct. Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, and Kennedy were all angels. They did nothing to promote those wars and were only forced to enter them because of the evil republicans. As always republicans are the mean ones - the ones who cause all the trouble. If only they would go away -- all the problems would be solved.

    Sorry Centex -- I'm not buying it. The details in history are very complex.

    Don't forget Bush went to Congress and got approval from democrats for both wars.
    So your strategy would have been to let the Germans or whoever just shoot at us and not strike back. And you think liberals are wusses!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That's the idea but I don't see it working.

    Talk to many people from Iran? Most everyday Iranians will tell you, Iran is not a backwards hyper-fundamentalist-Muslim nation by and large. It has that element to it but the only reason it holds onto power is because of the constant saber-rattling from the west which lets Akmed and the ruling regime get up in front of the cameras and talk about how they are the only thing standing in between Iran and an all-out destruction of the country by the U.S. and its allies. And we give them just enough saber rattling to lend credence to that claim in just enough people that they support the regime.

    Your everyday Iranian wants to wear jeans, buy American music, put on lipstick and get a med school degree. Not throttle Israelis to death with their bare hands... regardless of the propaganda.
    Okay, there's another element: no saber-rattling, just a quiet insistence that things have to change.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    So far.
    I meant it's naive and can't happen. It's a campy old-school scifi cliche
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So far.



    I figured you out: you live in a comic book.



    So your strategy would have been to let the Germans or whoever just shoot at us and not strike back. And you think liberals are wusses!
    Imperial Japan is the whoever you're looking for. Presumably they would not have come within a thousand leagues of Japan if the US had had a Republican President.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So far.



    I figured you out: you live in a comic book.



    So your strategy would have been to let the Germans or whoever just shoot at us and not strike back. And you think liberals are wusses!
    Imperial Japan is the whoever you're looking for. Presumably they would not have come within a thousand leagues of Japan if the US had had a Republican President.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I meant it's naive and can't happen. It's a campy old-school scifi cliche
    I managed to get two computer professors at OSU who were AI people into an argument over this. It was delightful.

    I regularly change my mind about whether there could ever be sentient machines. It really comes down to metaphysics: if humans are sentient because we have a soul, and souls are propagated from other souls, then machines are out of luck -- except in a scenario where humans can transfer their personalities to computers....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I managed to get two computer professors at OSU who were AI people into an argument over this. It was delightful.

    I regularly change my mind about whether there could ever be sentient machines. It really comes down to metaphysics: if humans are sentient because we have a soul, and souls are propagated from other souls, then machines are out of luck -- except in a scenario where humans can transfer their personalities to computers....
    I could care less about souls, but consciousness and self-awareness - although potentially possible - would never express themselves in the dumb way 60s SF described. An artificial intelligence would be omniscient the moment it gets plugged in a network.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I could care less about souls, but consciousness and self-awareness - although potentially possible - would never express themselves in the dumb way 60s SF described. An artificial intelligence would be omniscient the moment it gets plugged in a network.
    Except if it was built by Microsoft, it would be schizophrenic and manic-depressive.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Except if it was built by Microsoft, it would be schizophrenic and manic-depressive.
    Not to mention it would render itself unconscious at the most inconvenient moments possible to install updates.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    If we will ever have a computer equivalent to the human brain then it is theatrically possible to transfer our memories and personality to it.

    But technically it's a clone of you... so it's difficult to say if it's you living on or just a clone. The clone will experience it as you living on since it has the same personality and memories.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    conveniently not addressed by the obama lovers is his attempt to change/formalize the rules of engagement

    so if romney won (i guess they thought it was possible), he wouldn't get to have as much fun

    it's pretty fucking funny to see the 85 on their knees blowing the president and never looking for reciprocation
    Romney would be behind drones 100%, thinking as a businessman. First it brings in a lot of money for his cronies with fat contracts to build them.
    Second it cost a lot less to operate them over a huge military that breaks a lot of equipment, the humans broken and killed are a lessor factor then the logistical cost in moving personal and equipment, less infrastructure that does the same job means more bottom line profit.

    Jack seems concerned about the impersonal deaths on the ground. Interesting I think back to "Shock & Awe" which was displayed as a fireworks show on TV, like a sporting event. but on the ground in Baghdad thousands upon thousands of civilians were being torn to bits and everything they owned and knew was gone.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Except if it was built by Microsoft, it would be schizophrenic and manic-depressive.
    If it had ANY mental capacity, it would already be schizophrenic and manic-depressive, regardless of builder
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post
    Romney would be behind drones 100%, thinking as a businessman. First it brings in a lot of money for his cronies with fat contracts to build them.
    Second it cost a lot less to operate them over a huge military that breaks a lot of equipment, the humans broken and killed are a lessor factor then the logistical cost in moving personal and equipment, less infrastructure that does the same job means more bottom line profit.

    Jack seems concerned about the impersonal deaths on the ground. Interesting I think back to "Shock & Awe" which was displayed as a fireworks show on TV, like a sporting event. but on the ground in Baghdad thousands upon thousands of civilians were being torn to bits and everything they owned and knew was gone.
    This I believe is why Jack presented it as a concern about the "impact of war" rather than as a Rep/Dem issue... even though I doubt he considered this a big problem under Bush and I doubt he'd be making these nitpicks about how Romney was using them if he were President today. There'd probably not even be much to comment on since Obama's been fairly transparent with this and Republicans rarely if ever are.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post
    Romney would be behind drones 100%, thinking as a businessman. First it brings in a lot of money for his cronies with fat contracts to build them.
    Second it cost a lot less to operate them over a huge military that breaks a lot of equipment, the humans broken and killed are a lessor factor then the logistical cost in moving personal and equipment, less infrastructure that does the same job means more bottom line profit.

    Jack seems concerned about the impersonal deaths on the ground. Interesting I think back to "Shock & Awe" which was displayed as a fireworks show on TV, like a sporting event. but on the ground in Baghdad thousands upon thousands of civilians were being torn to bits and everything they owned and knew was gone.
    This is what I don't understand about the outrage.

    America was cheering as hundreds, then thousands then tens of thousands of innocent Iraquis were collateral damage while bunker busters and bombs rained down on them and indiscriminate killings took them out with the 'bad guys'.

    Suddenly, the idea of using a much more surgical approach and limiting deaths of innocent people to the greatest extent possible is seen as tantamount to pure evil.

    And I'll bet that Jack is one of those who don't feel that the US ever should apologize for Hirohima and Nagasaki.

    I'm just not getting the outrage, Jack.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Maybe the drones should announce, in the appropriate language, "So sorry, but we're going to kill you now. Have a nice--" BOOM!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    ^^ Personally?

    I'm one of those Americans who think that the U.S. shouldn't apologize for Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.

    The Japanese never apologized, to my knowledge, for the horrors that the Imperial Japanese Armed Forces rained down on millions of Chinese, Southeast Asians, South Pacific Islanders, the whole of the Philippines, Burma, and Pearl Harbor.

    However, imagine if the U.S. had drones then?

    Take out the Emperor in his Imperial Palace, along with Tojo and others, and watch the house of cards crumble.

    There never would have been a need for nukes.
    Last edited by CTF; November 30th, 2012 at 02:03 PM.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Maybe the drones should announce, in the appropriate language, "So sorry, but we're going to kill you now. Have a nice--" BOOM!
    How about just flying in low and slow with this playing, and the closer it gets crank it to ear splitting levels:



    Last edited by CTF; November 30th, 2012 at 01:59 PM.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    ^^ Personally?

    I'm one of those Americans who think that the U.S. shouldn't apologize for Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.

    The Japanese never apologized, to my knowledge, for the horrors that the Imperial Japanese Armed Forces rained down on millions of Chinese, Southeast Asians, South Pacific Islanders, the whole of the Philippines, Burma, and Pearl Harbor.

    However, imagine if the U.S. had drones then?

    Take out the Emperor in his Imperial Palace, along with Tojo and others, and watch the house of cards crumble.

    There never would have been a need for nukes.
    No, leave the Emperor, just take out his council and the military high staff. That would show respect for their nation, and also it's a lot easier to negotiate with just one guy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    ^^ Personally?

    I'm one of those Americans who think that the U.S. shouldn't apologize for Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.

    The Japanese never apologized, to my knowledge, for the horrors that the Imperial Japanese Armed Forces rained down on millions of Chinese, Southeast Asians, South Pacific Islanders, the whole of the Philippines, Burma, and Pearl Harbor.

    However, imagine if the U.S. had drones then?

    Take out the Emperor in his Imperial Palace, along with Tojo and others, and watch the house of cards crumble.

    There never would have been a need for nukes.
    Historical nitpick- the emperor was making no decisions regarding the war. That was both suspected and then it was fully realized during the occupation, which is why he was never tried for war crimes.

    The office of the emperor in Japan has had actual ruling power only in bits and scratches covering probably like 2% or less of Japan's total history... academics knew that, and MacArthur waved his hands in the air and threw a fit and said look guys if you kill or try this guy you're going to make my job a HELL OF A LOT HARDER, let him stay as a symbolic uniter, so they did.

    Opposite mindset of today where we'd have had him blindfolded at a hangman's noose in front of a jeering crowd and then had a bloodier occupation.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 30th, 2012 at 02:28 PM.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    I don't know about apologies, but to me there is no single act of terror in the history of mankind, comparable with the dropping of those bombs. Was it necessary? Maybe. Does that make it less monstrous? No. The atom bomb is a thing on a scale that humanity can't deal with yet. Which is why it is a deterrent, and not a weapon, and it makes me sad that it had to ever be used for any reason.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Historical nitpick- the emperor was making no decisions regarding the war. That was both suspected and then it was fully realized during the occupation, which is why he was never tried for war crimes.

    The office of the emperor in Japan has had actual ruling power only in bits and scratches covering probably like 2% or less of Japan's total history... academics knew that, and MacArthur waved his hands in the air and threw a fit and said look guys if you kill or try this guy you're going to make my job a HELL OF A LOT HARDER, let him stay as a symbolic uniter, so they did.

    Opposite mindset of today where we'd have had him blindfolded at a hangman's noose in front of a jeering crowd and then had a bloodier occupation.
    You only have one part wrong there... Saddam WAS a terror to his own people and he was making the calls and he did need to be tried and hung. The mistake was taking down and disarming (temporarily) the Baathist Army and structure of power in Iraq. those folks followed Saddam but would have easily followed another and they hated Iran. Their destruction was the ultimate failure of Iraq.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, leave the Emperor, just take out his council and the military high staff. That would show respect for their nation, and also it's a lot easier to negotiate with just one guy.
    True.

    The Japanese people, including many of his Military Staff; Admiral Yamamoto comes to mind admired and revered The Emperor.

    It would almost be like someone taking out the entire current U.S. Congress today. Sure we'd all mourn their passing, and might even be indignant about it, but the U.S. Constitution would still survive.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You only have one part wrong there... Saddam WAS a terror to his own people and he was making the calls and he did need to be tried and hung. The mistake was taking down and disarming (temporarily) the Baathist Army and structure of power in Iraq. those folks followed Saddam but would have easily followed another and they hated Iran. Their destruction was the ultimate failure of Iraq.
    The comparison was not to equate Hirohito and Saddam. The comparison was about our take-no-prisoners mindset today where we went into the Iraq War already labelling everyone and anyone who opposed our entry as terrorists and evil, and so working with people was almost out of the question, no matter who they were. If that mindset had prevailed in 1945 the world would look very different today in my opinion, and Japan would not be anywhere near as successful.

    Compare our mindset towards the people of Iraq as we entered the war with our soldiers entering Japan being instructed to give candy bars and cigarettes to the soldiers as they came in to surrender and register their names, and the absolute instruction that the victory was not to be celebrated or cheered in front of the Japanese (who are very pride minded).
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 30th, 2012 at 02:54 PM.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    True.

    The Japanese people, including many of his Military Staff; Admiral Yamamoto comes to mind admired and revered The Emperor.

    It would almost be like someone taking out the entire current U.S. Congress today. Sure we'd all mourn their passing, and might even be indignant about it, but the U.S. Constitution would still survive.
    I know I'd cry if they forced Oprah to get on the radio and admit she's mortal.... and a white woman.

    Sorry I couldn't help it.

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