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  1. #1

    Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    On Sunday the New York Timesreported that the Obama administration, prompted by the possibility of losing the election, has been developing a “formal rule book” to govern the use of drone strikes, which have killed roughly 2,500 people under President Obama.


    http://www.propublica.org/article/ha...for-our-allies

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/wo...pagewanted=all

    I'm not a fan of drones.

    I see the use of drones as an escalation of war -- before my liberal CEP brothers get their panties in a wad -- I felt the same way during the Bush Administration. Drones make the actions of war impersonal which can lead to loss of respect for human life.

    An drone operator may sit in a nice office with coffee breaks, lunch, a comfortable chair -- coming to work at 7 and leaving at 5 and then leaving to go home to mow the lawn, eat dinner, sleep in a comfortable bed and then back to the art of killing in the morning.

    War should be hell. Not a 9 to 5 job.

    Drones have been introduced that are the size of a moth to the size of a large plane -- there are even drones that swim. The USA is the current leader in drone production and use -- but that will not last long. Soon everyone will have drones -- legal countries, crooks, terrorists, commercial companies, etc. The sky will be crowded -- a collision with a passenger plane is not far off.

    We know that Obama uses something like a deck of cards every week to make his choices of who needs to be "taken out". Something a little too involved for the POTUS.

    Who are the 2,500 people that Obama has had killed? We know at least one person under 18yo was killed.

    If Congress were more responsible they would have worked with the administration to draw up rules and regulations on the use of drones. The administration has come up with a new set of rules -- evidently to ward off use by a Romney Administration.

    What's in the rule book?

    I think Pandora's box has been opened with the use of drones.

    I'm sure stealth drones are already being built. A prime assassination vehicle.

    In the end this weapon of impersonal killing will be worse than the proliferation of nuclear warheads.



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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    I couldn't agree less.

    The goal of war fighting is to make the other guy die for his cause while you prevail retaining your life. This is the ultimate in force protection. I hear what you are saying Jack. But remote control was there for grabbing. the fact that we developed it more just means it did not occur in India or Russia or China. Technology does not cease to progress simply because you are afraid of the result. I would rather be in the front of the technology than in the back getting attacked and trying to catch up.

    Eventually someday we could see country to country battles where a result is determined and no loss of life occurs.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    What are you even talking about? You think the respect for life is different whether you precision bomb the enemy or use a drone? Either way the guy giving the order has absolutely no direct personal connection to it so what are you rambling about?

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    An drone operator may sit in a nice office with coffee breaks, lunch, a comfortable chair -- coming to work at 7 and leaving at 5 and then leaving to go home to mow the lawn, eat dinner, sleep in a comfortable bed and then back to the art of killing in the morning.

    War should be hell. Not a 9 to 5 job.
    I'm sorry but I find that "clap trap" offensive.

    Sure!

    The "pilot" of that drone might be living in Nebraska, or Nevada, but I guaren-damned-tee-you that when he drives home to his family, and kids, he's NOT feeling like he spent all day playing a video game.

    Jack Springer, I'm confused.

    I could say to you, "where was your righteous indignation" while G.W. Bush was running our country into a deficit while giving tax breaks left and right, and keeping TWO WARS off the books, and committing war crimes in Iraqi Prisons, and detaining American Nationals in countries outside of the "war" to "obtain intelligence?"

    I can, as an American, ASK YOU where were you when the previous POTUS made everything that you seem to loath about the current POTUS possible?

    I could be a smart ass and say that Obama is doing thing the "smart way."

    Rather than committing our best and brightest to fight some war for Halliburton and other "Corporate Interests," who will come home in "body bags," or suffering from loss of limbs, or a mental disorder, that the GOP who sent them there in the first place don't want to pay for, you appear to now be screaming like a little girl with her skirt pulled up over her head, showing her panties, and crying because your neighbor's cat shit in the sand box.

    Really?

    REALLY?

    If nothing else I thought that you might be applauding the use of drones.

    They truly ARE less "messy," and much more "cost efficient."
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    ^ You don't get it. Real warrin' mans up the nation. Obama's trying to estrogenize war.

    (Good post btw)

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    The use of drones is one more step in the continuing shift to an imperial foreign policy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Jack's point is simply that drones simplify war and make it EASY

    wars shouldn't be EASY

    they should be hard

    and not often fought

    this makes them more likely

    I think that's his point

    I disagree

    putting less americans in harms way is a good thing

    it allows u to strategically find/kill the worst and hopefully not kill innocents - which is good

    but I get what Jack is saying

    and you others aren't even trying

    it's like you have your hands over your eyes and hears

    not just on this post

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Jack's point is simply that drones simplify war and make it EASY

    wars shouldn't be EASY

    they should be hard

    and not often fought

    this makes them more likely

    I think that's his point

    I disagree

    putting less americans in harms way is a good thing

    it allows u to strategically find/kill the worst and hopefully not kill innocents - which is good

    but I get what Jack is saying

    and you others aren't even trying

    it's like you have your hands over your eyes and hears

    not just on this post
    I responded to what he actually SAID, which is that it makes war less personal.

    I don't see how a drone is any less personal than launching satellite-guided ordinance from a plane or ship or even a tank. You can't occupy a country with drones so troops on the ground are always going to be a part of that kind of a war anyway.

    I'm not interested in war as some kind of penis extension manhood-building character exercise.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Good old Chance

    tells us what we're actually thinking

    we just thought we knew what we were thinking

    really we have to ask him what we're thinking

    and have his permission to think it

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    LOL that is the crux of it isnt it Kuli....?

    To add to the end of Centex's post I would say it is indeed less messy and the burden of proof and the collateral damage is assessed at the highest levels before action is taken.

    To say it is semi-secret is ignorant for the attention it has received. hell he has done everything except leak the hit list.

    To say from the party that is tough on punishment and the most responsible for instituting the idea that you can try some children as adults the cop out on killing someone under eighteen is pure BULLSHIT.

    All made up rage.

    The republicans in the Susan Rice versus Condoleeza Rice make clear the only line they wont cross is the bipartisan line in congress. Other than that they have no morality as a party.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    conveniently not addressed by the obama lovers is his attempt to change/formalize the rules of engagement

    so if romney won (i guess they thought it was possible), he wouldn't get to have as much fun

    it's pretty fucking funny to see the 85 on their knees blowing the president and never looking for reciprocation

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    The study covered the period from the March 20, 2003 invasion through March 19, 2008, in which 91,358 violent deaths were recorded by Iraq Body Count.
    That equates to 35, 629 children killed in the Iraq war started by the Bush administration under lies told by Condoleeza Rice who republicans then later made SoS with no objections to being lied to and causing 36 thousand children to die.

    WHERE WAS THE OUTRAGE THEN JACK?

    It makes me laugh and cry at the same time when those ignorant to the prices paid by all concerned when they mused on what warfare that they will never participate in should be like. Kinda like retarded white men telling women when she can have an abortion....

    Fucking Please?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    conveniently not addressed by the obama lovers is his attempt to change/formalize the rules of engagement

    so if romney won (i guess they thought it was possible), he wouldn't get to have as much fun

    it's pretty fucking funny to see the 85 on their knees blowing the president and never looking for reciprocation
    Well if you look at the difference in people killed during administrations then it is easy to figure out Republicans need many more restrictions.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    I suggest you guys negotiate a truce, before somebody gets zapped.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Once it has been invented you can't take it back simply by not using it.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Geiri85 View Post
    Once it has been invented you can't take it back simply by not using it.
    Like it or not, it is quite likely the future of warfare.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    You know, this really bothers me. The topic starts as a semi-legit thing, because, let's face it - there ARE some shady moral aspects to how much easier it is to send drones rather than soldiers. But then he HAS to sabotage himself and make it about Obama again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    We know that Obama uses something like a deck of cards every week to make his choices of who needs to be "taken out". Something a little too involved for the POTUS.
    Jack, even when you're on the verge of having a point, you still discredit yourself. Are you that inept at online communication, or do you just not care whether other people take you seriously?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    Jack's point is simply that drones simplify war and make it EASY

    wars shouldn't be EASY

    they should be hard

    and not often fought

    this makes them more likely

    I think that's his point

    I disagree

    putting less americans in harms way is a good thing

    it allows u to strategically find/kill the worst and hopefully not kill innocents - which is good

    but I get what Jack is saying

    and you others aren't even trying

    it's like you have your hands over your eyes and hears

    not just on this post
    Thanks Chance -- you got what I was saying. War must never be easy -- it must be hard, dangerous, unfair, confusing, heartbreaking, disgusting .... enough so that no one wants to fight a war.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Because as has been demonstrated infinity the republicans and republican party lack any morality. The only thing they object to is democratic rule. They will stop at nothing to denounce and defame that position of strength. If they have to through AMerica off a cliff financially then so be it. If they have to allow Americans to suffer and refuse to assist in a recovery then so be it. Nothing is more precious than the power.....

    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I suggest you guys negotiate a truce, before somebody gets zapped.
    i imposed a truce - no worries op

    but as u can imagine i think your equivalence is flawed ...... greatly

    please keep an eye on xbuzz's incessant jack springer bashing - all u need to do is do a "latest posts" and i think you'll be startled at the "temerity" of said xbuzz

    but i could be wrong

    and u should've said "you gays" - that would have at least been worth a smile

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You know, this really bothers me. The topic starts as a semi-legit thing, because, let's face it - there ARE some shady moral aspects to how much easier it is to send drones rather than soldiers. But then he HAS to sabotage himself and make it about Obama again:



    Jack, even when you're on the verge of having a point, you still discredit yourself. Are you that inept at online communication, or do you just not care whether other people take you seriously?
    He's that blinded by contempt for the political left, yes. Completely undermines his ability to raise an actually rational discussion between all of us here, because it's not like he brings up issues that aren't discussion worthy. He just presents them in such a one sided way and then spends too much time afterwards accusing us all of being apologists for Obama that no civil discussion is really possible.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thanks Chance -- you got what I was saying. War must never be easy -- it must be hard, dangerous, unfair, confusing, heartbreaking, disgusting .... enough so that no one wants to fight a war.
    SO when your party starts wars through lies you prefer lots of Americans to die.

    Check.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i imposed a truce - no worries op

    but as u can imagine i think your equivalence is flawed ...... greatly

    please keep an eye on xbuzz's incessant jack springer bashing - all u need to do is do a "latest posts" and i think you'll be startled at the "temerity" of said xbuzz

    but i could be wrong
    You are !
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thanks Chance -- you got what I was saying. War must never be easy -- it must be hard, dangerous, unfair, confusing, heartbreaking, disgusting .... enough so that no one wants to fight a war.
    This is a romantically naive notion but the people making a decision to start a war, and the people most waiting to benefit from any war, are never and virtually have never been the ones fighting the war-- or even their kids. Not since feudal times anyway. Republicans should understand this better than anybody--- you guys know how many war deferrments there were collectively amongst the members of the Bush Admin? lol.

    So that's why this angle of looking at the issue is pointless.

  23. #23

    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    SO when your party starts wars through lies you prefer lots of Americans to die.
    Bush went to Congress on both Iraq and Afghanistan and got approval from both side of the isle. It was all out in the open.

    Stop trying to make it something it wasn't.

    Hell, even Obama called the war in Afghanistan "the good war"

    Democrats have started their own fair share of wars -- WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam to name several.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thanks Chance -- you got what I was saying. War must never be easy -- it must be hard, dangerous, unfair, confusing, heartbreaking, disgusting .... enough so that no one wants to fight a war.
    Yeah, I'm sure that's EXACTLY how all the young boys sent in hostile territory feel. I am also sure that's exactly what YOU would want to experience if you were on the front lines.

    You whine about armchair warfare but you're doing exactly the same thing right now.
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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Bush went to Congress on both Iraq and Afghanistan and got approval from both side of the isle. It was all out in the open.

    Stop trying to make it something it wasn't.

    Hell, even Obama called the war in Afghanistan "the good war"

    Democrats have started their own fair share of wars -- WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam to name several.
    With doctored evidence and massive fear tactics about how we were going to get nuked. All lies btw.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure that's EXACTLY how all the young boys sent in hostile territory feel. I am also sure that's exactly what YOU would want to experience if you were on the front lines.

    You whine about armchair warfare but you're doing exactly the same thing right now.
    I'm sure all the lives ruined by these wars and all the deaths, amputations and cases of PTSD will make a future Republican administration think twice before trumping up a need for war right?

    Right?

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Drones are the future of American warfare. They're doing more damage than armies and casualties can. Remember, this isn't just about drones blowing up targets. They are also being used for invaluable intel that we will never see published other than the body bags.

    The real topic of concern would be to have a discussion about drones being used in our own homeland. As the military further develops autonomous warfare, it will eventually trickle down into civilian law enforcement. The legalities of that unto itself are worth discussing over.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Drones are the future of American warfare. They're doing more damage than armies and casualties can. Remember, this isn't just about drones blowing up targets. They are also being used for invaluable intel that we will never see published other than the body bags.

    The real topic of concern would be to have a discussion about drones being used in our own homeland. As the military further develops autonomous warfare, it will eventually trickle down into civilian law enforcement. The legalities of that unto itself are worth discussing over.
    Thank you Just Believe. There is so much about the use of drones that scares the crap out of me.

    If things are not controlled -- we'll have drones flying overhead like black birds.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Drones are the future of American warfare. They're doing more damage than armies and casualties can. Remember, this isn't just about drones blowing up targets. They are also being used for invaluable intel that we will never see published other than the body bags.

    The real topic of concern would be to have a discussion about drones being used in our own homeland. As the military further develops autonomous warfare, it will eventually trickle down into civilian law enforcement. The legalities of that unto itself are worth discussing over.
    yep - agree with part II there

    been lots of futuristic movies like that

    seems like the futuristic stuff in movies is now the present

    its scary

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    ^ However, it is an inevitability. Robotics will continue to define modern warfare. We've only seen the basics of it. Advanced computer systems perform more tasks and functions in the military than ever before. We're only just beginning to see the outsourcing of military labor. I think JayHawk can back me up on this, but computers and technology have already replaced a lot of military jobs that humans have historically filled.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    ^ However, it is an inevitability. Robotics will continue to define modern warfare. We've only seen the basics of it. Advanced computer systems perform more tasks and functions in the military than ever before. We're only just beginning to see the outsourcing of military labor. I think JayHawk can back me up on this, but computers and technology have already replaced a lot of military jobs that humans have historically filled.
    yeah - the rub on "locals", senators, governors protecting against military cuts as it equates to lost jobs in their districts

    everyone gets parochial

    bottom line is less deaths for us is good - not sure how anyone can debate that part

    and where do the soldiers go

    when their jobs are no longer

    job retraining in the absence of that is a tall task - add in military reductions and it's another scary thought

    job retraining

    it's the new threat to our economy - not doing it that is

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    ^ The military should be downsizing. The amount of waste that the federal budget designates towards defense spending dwarfs any criticism of other discretionary spending. The new weapons projects, international bases, and the sheer billions we spend just to maintain our nuclear arsenal is appalling. The modernization of the military forces us to rely on a leaner military force that is just as powerful but uses less men and women. We should have a generation of educated professionals who specialize in science, health, and engineering, not soldiers.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thanks Chance -- you got what I was saying. War must never be easy -- it must be hard, dangerous, unfair, confusing, heartbreaking, disgusting .... enough so that no one wants to fight a war.
    Go back to swords, where you actually have to face the guy you're killing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This is a romantically naive notion but the people making a decision to start a war, and the people most waiting to benefit from any war, are never and virtually have never been the ones fighting the war-- or even their kids. Not since feudal times anyway. Republicans should understand this better than anybody--- you guys know how many war deferrments there were collectively amongst the members of the Bush Admin? lol.

    So that's why this angle of looking at the issue is pointless.
    To really make it work, the law would have to require the major stockholders, executives, and board of any corporation which would profit from a war to go fight.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    We should have a generation of educated professionals who specialize in science, health, and engineering, not soldiers.
    Truer words, and all that. It makes me so angry that not fifty years ago Americans were striving to step on other worlds, and now their grandest achievement is NOT destroying their own democracy...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    ^ However, it is an inevitability. Robotics will continue to define modern warfare. We've only seen the basics of it. Advanced computer systems perform more tasks and functions in the military than ever before. We're only just beginning to see the outsourcing of military labor. I think JayHawk can back me up on this, but computers and technology have already replaced a lot of military jobs that humans have historically filled.
    Yup, it is inevitable. There's already automated cameras that captured red light runners and air-enforced speeding on interstates, of course that kind of implementation is just going to keep getting more advanced and widespread.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    ^ The military should be downsizing. The amount of waste that the federal budget designates towards defense spending dwarfs any criticism of other discretionary spending. The new weapons projects, international bases, and the sheer billions we spend just to maintain our nuclear arsenal is appalling. The modernization of the military forces us to rely on a leaner military force that is just as powerful but uses less men and women. We should have a generation of educated professionals who specialize in science, health, and engineering, not soldiers.
    i absolutely agree

    it's just tough math

    at a time when UE is real bad - and this will make it worse

    which makes it more complicated but no less necessary

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    To really make it work, the law would have to require the major stockholders, executives, and board of any corporation which would profit from a war to go fight.
    Yup. Which is simultaneously the reason why we'd never have a war with that law and therefore the reason that law will never be allowed to exist.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post

    The goal of war fighting is to make the other guy die for his cause while you prevail retaining your life.
    Absolutely agree. Canada was in that fight too, and I wanted our soldiers, American soldiers, and those from all the allied countries to be way safer than any Taliban theocrat jihadi.

    And before anyone says anything, I also wanted drones/aerial bombardment in Afghanistan when Bush was President.

    If anything I'm annoyed at the recent trend toward negotiation with Taliban. It's not an okay alternative to defeating them. And if they cannot be defeated I'd gladly see drones flying over the country for the next 50 years, just doing enough damage to keep them on the edge of the stone age.
    Last edited by bankside; November 28th, 2012 at 09:50 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Drones are the future of American warfare. They're doing more damage than armies and casualties can. Remember, this isn't just about drones blowing up targets. They are also being used for invaluable intel that we will never see published other than the body bags.

    The real topic of concern would be to have a discussion about drones being used in our own homeland. As the military further develops autonomous warfare, it will eventually trickle down into civilian law enforcement. The legalities of that unto itself are worth discussing over.
    And not just drones. If anyone has read Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers (seeing the movie doesn't count, because it actually manages to fuck up the story beyond belief), recall the powered armor the Mobile Infantry wore. The US is on track to achieve it except for the jet lift capacity. They've got a prototype action-assist framework a soldier can wear, which amplifies his every move: instead of running six miles per hour, they'll run twice that; instead of jumping three-foot fences, they'll leap ten-foot ones; instead of kicking in a door, they'll punch it to splinters. The present work is juicing up the servos so the framework can carry heavy body armor that will protect the soldier while allowing cooling air flow.

    It will be something both old and new in warfare: truly armored infantry.


    As for civilian use, the design work is currently under way.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; November 28th, 2012 at 09:51 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Absolutely agree. Canada was in that fight too, and I wanted our soldiers, American soldiers, and those from all the allied countries to be way safer than any Taliban theocrat jihadi.

    And before anyone says anything, I also wanted drones/aerial bombardment when Bush was President.

    If anything I'm annoyed at the recent trend toward negotiation with Taliban. It's not an okay alternative to defeating them. And if they cannot be defeated I'd gladly see drones flying over the country for the next 50 years, just doing enough damage to keep them on the edge of the stone age.
    I don't support those kinds of policies like open-ended long-term no fly zones and embargos and airstrikes because ultimately the people who must suffer from that aren't the people you're trying to hurt. It's everyday people who lose access to medicine or food or have thier power and water systems offline for portions of the year because they can't import spare parts or tools. I think if you actually ever meet & talk to someone who lived in Iraq from 1990-2001 it will change your view a lot on those kinds of policies which sound so humane and so sterile in theory but are a different matter entirely for the everyday people who live through air raid sirens on a weekly basis.

    And I've heard people say things along the lines of "oh well if you do that it makes life hard/miserable and people realize they need to overthrow that government/regime", it just doesn't work that way. The whole time all those things are going on the leaders are pointing and blaming everything on the guy doing it (usually us) and telling their citizens that they are the only thing protecting them from the western powers that want to destroy them. And when you see U.S. planes going overhead all the time that is not difficult at all to believe.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 28th, 2012 at 09:54 PM.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    ^ However, it is an inevitability. Robotics will continue to define modern warfare. We've only seen the basics of it. Advanced computer systems perform more tasks and functions in the military than ever before. We're only just beginning to see the outsourcing of military labor. I think JayHawk can back me up on this, but computers and technology have already replaced a lot of military jobs that humans have historically filled.
    On that thought, one idea for the powered infantry armor is that a computer should be able to take over, so soldiers could do things like make a twenty klick march overnight -- while the soldier is sleeping.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    On that thought, one idea for the powered infantry armor is that a computer should be able to take over, so soldiers could do things like make a twenty klick march overnight -- while the soldier is sleeping.
    I think we're reaching pretty far into the future with that one. I still don't trust programs that help you parallel park your car let alone trust one to not walk me off a cliff in a power suit.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I don't support those kinds of policies like open-ended long-term no fly zones and embargos and airstrikes because ultimately the people who must suffer from that aren't the people you're trying to hurt. It's everyday people who lose access to medicine or food or have thier power and water systems offline for portions of the year because they can't import spare parts or tools. I think if you actually ever meet & talk to someone who lived in Iraq from 1990-2001 it will change your view a lot on those kinds of policies which sound so humane and so sterile in theory but are a different matter entirely for the everyday people who live through air raid sirens on a weekly basis.
    Iraq is a totally different situation. The US and Britain fought what is in my view (and the view of the British ministries that were ignored by Tony Blair) an entirely illegal war.

    But to me war is not about winning hearts and minds. It is about removing a threat remorselessly while staying on this side of the Geneva Convention which is or should be the goal in Afghanistan.

    The US was right to go into Afghanistan, and it was right to ask its allies for support, and we were right to go. It was a just war against a brutal and oppressive regime that also happened to be sponsoring and aiding attacks on free countries. It had to be dealt with. And I believe a country has the right to conduct that kind of war while incurring the least possible casualties for its soldiers. I commend the US for developing and deploying drones to deal with Afghanistan, and I'd sign my country up to use that technology too given the risk that soldiers face. Appears we are starting to do that.

    When entering a war, I think the leadership of a country is first obliged to be clear that it is the only option and a just and legal one. The States and its Allies passed that test in Afghanistan easily. Canada passed that test in Iraq by refusing to go on Bush's Middle East Adventure. But once there, the goal is to gain the surrender of the opposing forces, and to show humanitarian regard for one's own soldiers in the process. Drones are safer to use.

    The short version: After innocent Americans died in the attack on New York carried out by terrorists propped up by the Taliban theocracy, I didn't care if Afghani civilians were startled by air raid sirens or had to put up with the incredible inconvenience of disruptions to power and water. And if Iraq had actually done anything to the States, I would have felt the same way about their situation.
    Last edited by bankside; November 28th, 2012 at 10:05 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Absolutely agree. Canada was in that fight too, and I wanted our soldiers, American soldiers, and those from all the allied countries to be way safer than any Taliban theocrat jihadi.

    And before anyone says anything, I also wanted drones/aerial bombardment in Afghanistan when Bush was President.

    If anything I'm annoyed at the recent trend toward negotiation with Taliban. It's not an okay alternative to defeating them. And if they cannot be defeated I'd gladly see drones flying over the country for the next 50 years, just doing enough damage to keep them on the edge of the stone age.
    I wanted THOR. Build it, and the Taliban would have to accept that we could quite literally splash any target at will.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Absolutely agree. Canada was in that fight too, and I wanted our soldiers, American soldiers, and those from all the allied countries to be way safer than any Taliban theocrat jihadi.

    And before anyone says anything, I also wanted drones/aerial bombardment in Afghanistan when Bush was President.

    If anything I'm annoyed at the recent trend toward negotiation with Taliban. It's not an okay alternative to defeating them. And if they cannot be defeated I'd gladly see drones flying over the country for the next 50 years, just doing enough damage to keep them on the edge of the stone age.
    Not the stone age, the sixth century -- that's where their worldview comes from, so that's where they should be made to live until they grow up.

    Of course, there's the possibility they might like it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I don't support those kinds of policies like open-ended long-term no fly zones and embargos and airstrikes because ultimately the people who must suffer from that aren't the people you're trying to hurt. It's everyday people who lose access to medicine or food or have thier power and water systems offline for portions of the year because they can't import spare parts or tools. I think if you actually ever meet & talk to someone who lived in Iraq from 1990-2001 it will change your view a lot on those kinds of policies which sound so humane and so sterile in theory but are a different matter entirely for the everyday people who live through air raid sirens on a weekly basis.

    And I've heard people say things along the lines of "oh well if you do that it makes life hard/miserable and people realize they need to overthrow that government/regime", it just doesn't work that way. The whole time all those things are going on the leaders are pointing and blaming everything on the guy doing it (usually us) and telling their citizens that they are the only thing protecting them from the western powers that want to destroy them. And when you see U.S. planes going overhead all the time that is not difficult at all to believe.
    It can work if you can completely cut off their ability to get imports, which also means cutting them off from outside income. If the government can be starved of money, the odds are good it can be brought down. But so long as someone is willing to cheat, the chances of success closely approach zero.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Iraq is a totally different situation. The US and Britain fought what is in my view (and the view of the British ministries that were ignored by Tony Blair) an entirely illegal war.

    But to me war is not about winning hearts and minds. It is about removing a threat remorselessly while staying on this side of the Geneva Convention which is or should be the goal in Afghanistan.

    The US was right to go into Afghanistan, and it was right to ask its allies for support, and we were right to go. It was a just war against a brutal and oppressive regime that also happened to be sponsoring and aiding attacks on free countries. It had to be dealt with. And I believe a country has the right to conduct that kind of war while incurring the least possible casualties for its soldiers. I commend the US for developing and deploying drones to deal with Afghanistan, and I'd sign my country up to use that technology too given the risk that soldiers face. Appears we are starting to do that.

    When entering a war, I think the leadership of a country is first obliged to be clear that it is the only option and a just and legal one. The States and its Allies passed that test in Afghanistan easily. Canada passed that test in Iraq by refusing to go on Bush's Middle East Adventure. But once there, the goal is to gain the surrender of the opposing forces, and to show humanitarian regard for one's own soldiers in the process. Drones are safer to use.

    The short version: After innocent Americans died in the attack on New York carried out by terrorists propped up by the Taliban theocracy, I didn't care if Afghani civilians were startled by air raid sirens or had to put up with the incredible inconvenience of disruptions to power and water. And if Iraq had actually done anything to the States, I would have felt the same way about their situation.
    I don't disagree that trying to fight and win a war with as few casualties as possible is good. However I believe that strangling a country to death by any policy or set of policies that hurt everyone inside economically and infrastructurally is COMPLETELY counterproductive to trying to bring down or remove a regime.

    If your goal is to get rid of the Taliban, a 20 or 30 year future of no fly zones, embargos and airstrikes is a horrible way to do it, and don't hold your breath for the Taliban to collapse from it. Expect them to get even more popular support.

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I think we're reaching pretty far into the future with that one. I still don't trust programs that help you parallel park your car let alone trust one to not walk me off a cliff in a power suit.
    The powered framework is already functional. All the computer does is take instructions from your own movements, and... enhances them. The "sleep walk" function would have the suit follow one where an officer is awake and leading.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Drone War: Obama's Semi-Secret War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It can work if you can completely cut off their ability to get imports, which also means cutting them off from outside income. If the government can be starved of money, the odds are good it can be brought down. But so long as someone is willing to cheat, the chances of success closely approach zero.
    This sounds theoretical to me though, I mean do we actually have demonstrable proof this works and doesn't take 30+ years of strangulation that hurts the entire country? North Korea's regime is still in power, and Iran's, Saddam's regime never fell until we actually got troops on the ground.

    In other words I don't see why we're discussing "let's change the strategy in Afghanistan, let's pull out and do to it what we did to Sadadam's regime for 20 years (and failed to topple it with) and get rid of the Taliban that way", I don't see how that's an effective plan.

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