Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

[tombastep]

This is your entire problem with the discussion?

Really you're just making it look more like what I already suspect which is that you'll grasp any possible nitpick as an excuse to absolve this guy of what the picture makes look most obvious.

You're almost right, but he doesn't actually care about the topic and he'll grasp at anything just to disrupt the flow of the thread. Or just to make it worse.

[xbuzzerx]

I believe in discussions using factual evidence but your comments back in #78 make me think you want free-wheeling, fast and loose, 'who shot John', assumptions, presumptions and prejudging.

I'm sorry what details are exactly in dispute here?

There is nothing "free and loose" with the events of what happened here that would change the picture from "this guy flew off a handle and shot unarmed black kids who never even stepped out of their vehicle" to "oh maybe he was just defending himself."

[Hard-up1]

It is the same topic: race and killings, and how they are related.

I've worked for black candidates to be elected. I have opposed racist individuals in my community. The imputation that anyone who doesn't merrily march along with every race thread on JUB is secretly a Klansman is lame.

The thread was and is an alarm about a black young man being slain as a racist white-on-black act. At every point I've agreed that the murder is reprehensible and not defensible. That said, it doesn't remove the pattern of these threads on JUB, which is the ongoing implication that race violence is somehow rampant in the U.S. and all the more in some states.

My point was and is that MANY MORE black men are killed by their own social and racial peers to NO ONE'S outrage on JUB, especially the watchdogs who are endlessly posting about white on black killings which occur in A MINUTE FRACTION of the rate of incidence of black on black.

If race is a valid aspect to discuss in murder, then it is a valid aspect. It is not tantamount to defending white on black murder simply because one places in perspective the numbers involved in proportion to the black on black killings.

Far from being a diversion, it is highly relevant when discussing race's role in the murder of black men in America.

The numbers are not subjective. The glass is not half-full of white men killing black teens. It is about 80% full of dead black American males killed by other black American males. Then there are a few white on black racist killing, which are in far, far fewer occurrences than these thread posters would have anyone believe.

While presumably arguing against racism, they are in fact promulgating it by implying that white men are killing black teens in any sizable numbers.

The stand your ground law may well be wrong and used inappropriately, but the imputation that race killings are rampant is just plain exaggeration, and far from the real story about what is killing young black males.

[xbuzzerx]

It is the same topic: race and killings, and how they are related.

I've worked for black candidates to be elected. I have opposed racist individuals in my community. The imputation that anyone who doesn't merrily march along with every race thread on JUB is secretly a Klansman is lame.

Thankfully, that isn't what's happened nor since being active on the forums have I seen this happen. I actually see the direct opposite-- you seemingly gummy worming into various shapes to insist that we can't possibly conclude race played a role here or even looked like it did-- even though clearly it's one of the first things that enters people's minds when they hear about this case.

I mean next up did race play no role in the Trayvon case? I don't hear about a lot of white teenagers being stalked by neighborhood watchmen cowboys on their way home from 7-11 and then being shot to death because they were "threatening" with their skittles, but hey if those stories are out there, please bring them up.

The thread was and is an alarm about a black young man being slain as a racist white-on-black act. At every point I've agreed that the murder is reprehensible and not defensible. That said, it doesn't remove the pattern of these threads on JUB, which is the ongoing implication that race violence is somehow rampant in the U.S. and all the more in some states.

Me saying that the law in Florida is terrible would be the same whether the shooter had been purple and the kids had been fuschia. You would not catch me any less likely to say this is a stupid law that encourages cowboy vigilantism. In fact that's exactly how I've described the problem with this law multiple times, I haven't said it's a "race law telling whites to kill people", though clearly it is encouraging a few white people to take their perceptions of minorities being disruptive and dangerous and go out and handle that problem with a gun.

My point was and is that MANY MORE black men are killed by their own social and racial peers

Yes, you've made that point multiple times. So Hard-up let me ask you. If an American is decapitated overseas by a terrorist, how come people have any reaction to it at all? I mean look how many Americans die in car crashes everyday. Where's the outrage over that? We shouldn't have a war on terrorism. We should have a war on automobiles!

^That's your logic.

[pat grimshaw]

…^That's your logic.

Reductio ad absurdum (from the Latin: "reduction to absurdity") is a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is true by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its denial… or in turn to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance.

[xbuzzerx]

Reductio ad absurdum (from the Latin: "reduction to absurdity") is a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is true by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its denial… or in turn to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance.

His argument is equatum apple orangio.

Wingardium whitewashiosa!

[GiancarloC]

I'm sorry what details are exactly in dispute here?

Don't mind him. He's another case of a troll trying to derail a thread because he doesn't bring up a factual argument.

[MoePhoenix7]

When people try to talk about racism and the serious issues in America, respond with a deflection about a different topic. Apples and oranges. And yes I agree with MoePhoenix, the point you tried to make is absolute horseshit.

You're almost right, but he doesn't actually care about the topic and he'll grasp at anything just to disrupt the flow of the thread. Or just to make it worse.

He doesn’t care. Race is clearly an uncomfortable topic in general for him. As it should be, but instead of trying to discuss it like an grown adult, he wants to deflect and deny every notion of racial disharmony. I knew for a fact that he doesn’t have a real counter argument and he’s just grasping at straws when he tried to attack my character as a poster. He wants to make off-topic, infuriating comments for one of us to blow up so he can sit back and say “You see, this is why we can’t discuss race b/c it ALWAYS turns into an episode of The Jerry Springer show with everyone fighting and insulting one another.” I’m just pleased that me and the rest of the posters who have contributed to this topic have not taken his bait and have presented their arguments in a mature, respectful manner.

And I totally agree with a comment I received, he really is the epitome why we need to always have a safe place here to discuss race. It’s frightening how he and so many others can be so willingly blind.

[GiancarloC]

The stand your ground law may well be wrong and used inappropriately, but the imputation that race killings are rampant is just plain exaggeration, and far from the real story about what is killing young black males.

Total bullshit point not backed up by any real facts and just mere speculation. Are any of your points ADDRESSING the reality in this country? Or is it just more of a pathetic deflection because of the inability to discuss racism?

We don't need powdery sugarcoated bullshit... we need to really tackle issues. Stop telling people on here what they can or cannot discuss. The refusal to discuss the rampant racism in this country shows how willing some are to address the issues.

[pat grimshaw]

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

[GiancarloC]

And? What is that supposed to prove? It's easy to post a link... even easier not giving an argument regarding the topic.

[tombastep]

He doesn’t care. Race is clearly an uncomfortable topic in general for him. As it should be, but instead of trying to discuss it like an grown adult, he wants to deflect and deny every notion of racial disharmony. I knew for a fact that he doesn’t have a real counter argument and he’s just grasping at straws when he tried to attack my character as a poster. He wants to make off-topic, infuriating comments for one of us to blow up so he can sit back and say “You see, this is why we can’t discuss race b/c it ALWAYS turns into an episode of The Jerry Springer show with everyone fighting and insulting one another.” I’m just pleased that me and the rest of the posters who have contributed to this topic have not taken his bait and have presented their arguments in a mature, respectful manner.

The irony of this is that it is usually these comments that tend to derail the threads, the purposely inflammatory comments. People coming in right away going "oh god another race thread." I understand that there are threads about race that specific people make to try and get a rise out of people but this thread was definitely not one of them.

And for anyone that has a problem with race threads or doesn't want to engage in them there is simply an option, don't click to open the thread. No thread on here is forcing your hand and subjecting you to post. It's no wonder why some members don't post as much when you have people either complaining about the topic you made or criticizing your posting style..

Topics like Race, Religion, Politics don't need to be as "taboo" or touchy as people try to make them out to be. There are people who can't go into these discussions without thinking they're right, being too emotional about the topic, being able to handle someones different opinion or being open to the fact that someone might bring something to the table that will bring a newer view about said topic*. In general they can't handle these discussions. I definitely felt like since first starting here my opinions on things changed and expanded because of discussions on here and in the "real world."

And I totally agree with a comment I received, he really is the epitome why we need to always have a safe place here to discuss race. It’s frightening how he and so many others can be so willingly blind.

And it is sad that it really needs to come to this in order for people to able to have a civil conversation about it.

*I just want to point out that I can also be guilty of these things from time to time. I don't want to make it sound like I am above this kind of thing, because I'm not. Sometimes emotions do get the best of someone.

[xbuzzerx]

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

And? What is that supposed to prove? It's easy to post a link... even easier not giving an argument regarding the topic.

Yeah I'm just going to ignore these little spout-offs with a link and no actual reasoning from now on because it's clear he is unwilling or incapable of actually articulating his viewpoint. It's clear what the viewpoint is but if he can't bother to post more than one line about it I guess that tells us all we need to know about its veracity.

And good post Tombastep. I agree totally that the "omg u ppl just make everything race all the time" blows up the topic more than any other factor. If those people really can't stand the discussion just don't enter it.

[pat grimshaw]

And? What is that supposed to prove? It's easy to post a link... even easier not giving an argument regarding the topic.

Oh Giancarlo, I see you have been muzzled for a week.

I'm not a Pit-bull who enjoys the testosterone rush of having aggressive, loud, vicious arguments for the sake of having aggressive, loud, vicious arguments. And I'm not a pitbull who bites without thinking... but I'm assuming that your brain didn't even register those graphs in the link in the three minutes between posts on the first of December before your brain told you to bite again.

I think those statistics are more eloquent than all your frenzied, angry biting and frothing at the mouth.

[xbuzzerx]

Oh Giancarlo, I see you have been muzzled for a week.

I'm not a Pit-bull who enjoys the testosterone rush of having aggressive, loud, vicious arguments for the sake of having aggressive, loud, vicious arguments. And I'm not a pitbull who bites without thinking... but I'm assuming that your brain didn't even register those graphs in the link in the three minutes between posts on the first of December before your brain told you to bite again.

I think those statistics are more eloquent than all your frenzied, angry biting and frothing at the mouth.

Of course they're completely off topic.

Who cares about honor killings, look at this chart of traffic deaths.

[pat grimshaw]

^ Hmm. . . a two minute delay.

You didn't even see the statistics. I'm now convinced YOU with your biting avatar and location are The New Giancarlo.

[xbuzzerx]

^ Hmm. . . a two minute delay.

You didn't even see the statistics. I'm now convinced YOU with your biting avatar and location are The New Giancarlo.

K. Think whatever you like, it's not like your reasoning has taken you very far in this topic.

[tombastep]

Pat Grimshaw going after and insulting a banned member. Keep it classy. Funny how he has a lot more to say when the person is incapable of saying something back.

[MoePhoenix7]

Funny how he has a lot more to say when the person is incapable of saying something back.

Yup, the epitome of a coward troll. Like I would expect anything else from that particular one.

[pat grimshaw]

^ he'll back soon, biting and snapping and frothing at the mouth.

[pat grimshaw]

I hope Dunn is prosecuted and the "Stand-your-ground Defence" is repealed. And I wish there was more evidence and less hysteria. I reckon if tasers can be fitted with cameras then guns should be too!

BTW: It seems ‘Stand Your Ground’ Defense Rejected in this case
http://www.afro.com/sections/news/af...?storyid=76967