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  1. #51
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    This shooting happened because he got pisted off and nothing more. No way Stand Your Ground applies here in any way shape or form.

  2. #52
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    So far, nobody knows what was said between the two of them. What, if any, threats were made by whom, towards whom.
    So all we know at this point is, an asshole with a gun, met an asshole with a loud stereo...........GUN WON!!!
    This isn't about racism, it's just another senceless killing. Funny how when a black person kills a white person you don't hear a peep about racism, hmmm, I wonder why.

  3. #53
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    So far, nobody knows what was said between the two of them. What, if any, threats were made by whom, towards whom.
    So all we know at this point is, an asshole with a gun, met an asshole with a loud stereo...........GUN WON!!!
    This isn't about racism, it's just another senceless killing. Funny how when a black person kills a white person you don't hear a peep about racism, hmmm, I wonder why.
    Yes, you're right. They just chaulk it up to yet more black criminals what can you expect really.

    Racism is certainly never, ever involved.

  4. #54
    tombastep
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    This isn't about racism, it's just another senceless killing. Funny how when a black person kills a white person you don't hear a peep about racism, hmmm, I wonder why.
    Man, I am white and I always roll my eyes when people say things like this.

  5. #55
    JUB Addict DigitalFudge's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by BFizzle View Post
    The fact of the matter is he was a defenseless teenager. The article even says he was shot and killed in the backseat of the vehicle, which would suggest that he didn't get physical with Dunn first. Even if he did threaten him verbally that in no way warrants a shooting.

    I just hope it doesn't take as long to prosecute Dunn as it did with Zimmerman, and hopefully we can get these gun laws under control.
    Yas show them to their seat



    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Funny how when a black person kills a white person you don't hear a peep about racism, hmmm, I wonder why.


  6. #56
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    This isn't about racism, it's just another senceless killing. Funny how when a black person kills a white person you don't hear a peep about racism, hmmm, I wonder why.
    This comment is bullshit on so many levels... sorry but no.

  7. #57
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Lotta opinions, but no one is addressing the statistics by the Department of Justice.

    The case is not made that this one-off is in any way typical of the average killing of a black male in Florida, or even in the US.

    Although it is outrageous, the outrage here is still about race, which is not the rampant crime against teen blacks that is the implied problem.

    Disparage, ridicule, use schoolyard epithets, but address the stats. This case is not typical.

    You could just as easily pick some hit-and-run crime and then try to portray it as systemically a problem, when it is not.

  8. #58
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    Lotta opinions, but no one is addressing the statistics by the Department of Justice.

    The case is not made that this one-off is in any way typical of the average killing of a black male in Florida, or even in the US.

    Although it is outrageous, the outrage here is still about race, which is not the rampant crime against teen blacks that is the implied problem.

    Disparage, ridicule, use schoolyard epithets, but address the stats. This case is not typical.

    You could just as easily pick some hit-and-run crime and then try to portray it as systemically a problem, when it is not.
    Because if you take the lionshare of typical black-on-black crime it's going to involve robbery, people who are involved in drugs or the drug trade, or similar.

    When a white guy goes up to black kids playing music and ends up shooting them of course it's going to stand out more than if we hear a shooting occurred during a drug deal gone bad or a drug addict who was robbering a 7-11. Because it's utterly senseless and there's no comprehensible reason why it happened other than for us to question if this guy was a racist or was looking to create a violent confrontation. Why in the world in an argument about music with some teenagers would you feel the need to pull out your gun and shoot them? When they were SITTING IN A CAR, no less? It's not like these kids were shoving him around and making him feel physically threatened.

  9. #59

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    I read that Dunn is claiming that he saw a gun barrel displayed or pointed at him through a window ????

    Haven’t heard any more about that, though, nor have I heard of any other arrests in this case.

  10. #60
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Again, there is no defense of this killing, even if the teens in some way verbally provoked the altercation that then escalated. But, your assumption that the senseless factor makes for outrage doesn't make good sense to me.

    Whereas it IS senseless to kill for a petty argument, if we knew the motivations of the referenced black-on-black teen murders, they would likewise be senseless to most people too.

    Racial murder is senseless. Drug deal murders are senseless. Ego and testosterone motivated murders are senseless. Fights over girlfriends ending in murder are senseless. Murders committed during theft are senseless.

    My point remains that the great number of other senseless killings are appalling and a stain on our culture even more than the much more rare racist killing, if indeed this was about race or culture clash. And yeah, it is sad that someone would attempt a stand-your-ground defense, but lawyers often do outrageous strategies. Even if the killer was somehow able to get off with this unreasonable defense, it wouldn't make it typical, and it wouldn't outshadow all the tragedy of black-on-black murders.

    Somehow, it is fashionable on JUB to pick a state like Florida, make generalizations about the entire populace based on a crime like this, and then portray it as some kind of hotbed of racial conflict. There must be a more compelling argument than one case. And, it seems ironic that taking offense at racism in a case like this then becomes the basis to stereotype Floridians. Think about it.

  11. #61
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    Again, there is no defense of this killing, even if the teens in some way verbally provoked the altercation that then escalated. But, your assumption that the senseless factor makes for outrage doesn't make good sense to me.

    Whereas it IS senseless to kill for a petty argument, if we knew the motivations of the referenced black-on-black teen murders, they would likewise be senseless to most people too.

    Racial murder is senseless. Drug deal murders are senseless. Ego and testosterone motivated murders are senseless. Fights over girlfriends ending in murder are senseless. Murders committed during theft are senseless.

    My point remains that the great number of other senseless killings are appalling and a stain on our culture even more than the much more rare racist killing, if indeed this was about race or culture clash. And yeah, it is sad that someone would attempt a stand-your-ground defense, but lawyers often do outrageous strategies. Even if the killer was somehow able to get off with this unreasonable defense, it wouldn't make it typical, and it wouldn't outshadow all the tragedy of black-on-black murders.

    Somehow, it is fashionable on JUB to pick a state like Florida, make generalizations about the entire populace based on a crime like this, and then portray it as some kind of hotbed of racial conflict. There must be a more compelling argument than one case. And, it seems ironic that taking offense at racism in a case like this then becomes the basis to stereotype Floridians. Think about it.
    I'm sorry, but this post is nonsense. Yes, to a normal, law-abiding citizen, dying in a drug trade is senseless. But that murder didn't happen randomly as one guy walking up to another one with seemingly no reason and shooting him.

    You are trying to apples and apples two situations that are clearly apples and oranges.

    Oh and P.S.? Florida does have a horrible track record. If I casually think back on almost every random no motivation killing of a foreign tourist or black kid I've heard in the last decade or so, at least half of them were in Florida. No, no one has said everyone in Florida is an insane racist who shoots minorities on sight. But this kind of case comes slightly on the heels of the Trayvon case and you seriously want us to put an injunction order on talking about what might be going on with Florida and its laws specifically that might be setting the stage for these kinds of situations to happen? Too bad.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 28th, 2012 at 10:35 PM.

  12. #62
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    This thread is about addressing the racial divide in this country. Hard-up refuses to address these issues and simply says "well who cares... look at all these other issues". It's important to examine these issues. Florida allows crimes to happen under the disguise of self defense. And yes hard-up... definitely apples and oranges... two different situations.

    Rare? He thinks these situations are rare? LMAO... what ignorance.

  13. #63
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Cite numbers.

    I could post all day and call you epithets, but I posted statistics. You have posted none.

    Far from "who cares", my posts are arguing that promoting propaganda that portrays the state of inter-racial violence, while ignoring the much higher rate of black on black killing, is simply a dishonest portrayal of the big problem that faces a black male today in terms of greater exposure to violent death.

    Many, many, many more black males are killed every year by their own race. Why is that not an even greater problem? Why?

    Howl at the moon, jibe as a kid, but you simply haven't attempted to explain why the greater number of black deaths at the hands of other blacks gets NO discussion or outrage on JUB, but the white-on-black killing becomes center stage as if it were typical.

    Address the statistics.
    Last edited by Hard-up1; November 28th, 2012 at 11:05 PM.

  14. #64
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    Cite numbers.

    I could post all day and call you epithets, but I posted statistics. You have posted none.
    Snarky. Post all day and call us epithets... well that's ironic as you have done so.

    Oh but several of us have provided statistics and facts.

    Far from "who cares", my posts are arguing that promoting propaganda that portrays the state of inter-racial violence, while ignoring the much higher rate of black on black killing, is simply a dishonest portrayal of the big problem that faces a black male today in terms of greater exposure to violent death.
    It's awesome that one is willing to turn a blind eye to a serious problem in this fucking society. This thread is about Florida's terrible justice system and this crime here. Don't try to change the subject because it doesn't suit some selfish desire.

  15. #65
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    Cite numbers.

    I could post all day and call you epithets, but I posted statistics. You have posted none.

    Far from "who cares", my posts are arguing that promoting propaganda that portrays the state of inter-racial violence, while ignoring the much higher rate of black on black killing, is simply a dishonest portrayal of the big problem that faces a black male today in terms of greater exposure to violent death.

    Many, many, many more black males are killed every year by their own race. Why is that not an even greater problem? Why?

    Howl at the moon, jibe as a kid, but you simply haven't attempted to explain why the greater number of black deaths at the hands of other blacks gets NO discussion or outrage on JUB, but the white-on-black killing becomes center stage as if it were typical.

    Address the statistics.
    I have to agree with GC here... you're turning this into "oh but you can't care about this issue because we have to talk about the whole volume of total causes of black deaths." That's just whitewashing, seriously. This topic is about on-black violence in Florida which appears to be empowered, or at the very least potentially legally defensible by, Florida's standing self-defense laws. Regardless of the intent of these laws they are engendering a vigilante mindset where trigger happy people are initiating confrontations with "threatening" (black) people and then shooting them and saying they felt threatened/shot them in self-defense. Yes, Florida's laws are playing a role here. Yes, race is playing a role here. This is not a thread about heart disease or sickle cell anemia or traffic accidents and how many black people are killed by those things. You are just trying to obfuscate the issue at hand with that line of reasoning.

  16. #66
    Match in the gas tank..
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    I find it funny.

    A few months back, when that asshole shot all those people, (who were all races) in the batman theatre, no anti white, or racial remarks were made of the event. Just to add, he's labeled as a mental case and psychopath.

    However, in what many are calling Trayvon Martin part 2, it's racist white man this and thug hoodlum black boy that.

    That's all I have to point out for now. This story is still sort of new and nobody knows the full story.

    Killing is killing. I don't care if the victim was purple and the shooter was yellow. If it was race related or not, killing is wrong.
    Glass Half Empty, Glass Half Full
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  17. #67
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    exactly what I said after the story too incidentally... before people made posters for it.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #68
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You are just trying to obfuscate the issue at hand with that line of reasoning.
    No, I'm trying to say that the outrage is very selective, and with the intent of portraying black teen as hapless victims of white brutality via vigilante actions.

    I've completely agreed that these cases are exactly that, most likely, but that choosing to focus on that as the problem needing great attention and outrage is disingenuous when the same killing is taking the lives of many, many more young black men, and at the hands of their own race and for reasons just as senseless.

    It is an inconvenient truth, and denied effectively by extinction by the same posters on this forum who repeatedly raise the white-on-black racism issue. If white vigilante killings are the big problem in the US, then what exactly are the black killings, acceptable?

    And the poster cited about the Colorado shooting is another fine piece of racist propaganda. There is no history of any ethnicity committing any kind of random killing spree without the individual's sanity being called into question. If an Arab or a Black had shot up the same theater in the same way, he would have most certainly been suspected to be psychologically deranged. Making such a poster is racist in and off itself. Cite a single randomized mass killing like this and show where a black man was represented simply as a thug rather than a psycho.
    Last edited by Hard-up1; November 28th, 2012 at 11:52 PM.

  19. #69
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    No, I'm trying to say that the outrage is very selective, and with the intent of portraying black teen as hapless victims of white brutality via vigilante actions.
    And I don't see how you can view the Trayvon case OR this case as anything but exactly that. These were not guys out on the streets with weapons and running drugs or breaking people's windows. They were, as far as we can tell, just being utterly normal teenagers and they're dead because people who inherently think of most/all black males as threatening in any situation started confrontations with them while carrying a gun and apparently in the belief that Florida law justified what they were doing--- even in this case, the man is claiming that shooting someone unarmed in the back seat of a car was "self defense."

    What do you conclude from that?

    I've completely agreed that these cases are exactly that, most likely, but that choosing to focus on that as the problem needing great attention and outrage is disingenuous when the same killing is taking the lives of many, many more young black men, and at the hands of their own race and for reasons just as senseless.
    It's not disingenuous at all. Those other deaths you are referring to are not happening because a really, really bad law is giving people a cowboy mindset to go out into the street with their gun and fix problems which wind up with an unarmed teenager dead for absolutely no reason.

    It is an inconvenient truth, and denied effectively by extinction by the same posters on this forum who repeatedly raise the white-on-black racism issue. If white vigilante killings are the big problem in the US, then what exactly are the black killings, acceptable?
    Who said they are acceptable? We said it's apples and oranges, you are the only one discussing it here because this thread IS ABOUT THE VIGILANTE KILLINGS. However if a law was specifically creating the legal gray-area which ENCOURAGED perpetrators of black-on-black violent crime to go out and do it, yes, I would be taking exception to that law too.

  20. #70
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    I appologise to anyone I offended, it was an attempt at sarcasm that obviously failed. But that dosen't change the fact that people are sreaming racism before anyone knows the full details of what happened. A white person shot a black person, so far that's all we know. That racial dynamic dosen't automaticaly eqaute to racism.
    Had Dunn been a black guy he may have shot that kid. Had the kid been white Dunn may have still shot him. Was there racism? Possibly/probably, but there are other variables to considder. Dunn was comming from a wedding (probably drinking) stopped at a convience store (buying beer?) notices/hears a SUV blarring load music, Dunn pumps up his beer muscles to go and put these kids in line. Dunn asks/tells the kids to turn the music down, a verbal exchange occurs, Dunn fires 8-9 times killing the kid in the back seat then runs, turning himself in the next day (after consulting an attourney no doubt)
    You can speculate till the cows come home but there is no overt act or statement pointing to a racial bias or motivation that we know of yet.




    Quote Originally Posted by tombastep View Post
    Man, I am white and I always roll my eyes when people say things like this.
    .
    .
    .
    I don't know why you feel you should share your racial indentity with me, but ....congrats on your whiteness......I'm not.

  21. #71
    tombastep
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    You can speculate till the cows come home but there is no overt act or statement pointing to a racial bias or motivation that we know of yet.
    And there are ALWAYS people who try to make these cases not seem racist at all no matter how much they actually are or appear to be. And someone not screaming racial slurs does not = not racist.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I don't know why you feel you should share your racial indentity with me, but ....congrats on your whiteness......I'm not.
    Probably because it is a typical thing I hear from white people and it is embarrassing comment to make.

  22. #72
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by tombastep View Post
    And there are ALWAYS people who try to make these cases not seem racist at all no matter how much they actually are or appear to be. And someone not screaming racial slurs does not = not racist.


    I never said there was "NO" racism, I have no idea what's in the shooters heart, nor do you. Just because there's a conflict between 2 people of different races dosen't automaticaly mean it's a racialy driven event. It seems that there are a few folks around who are hyper-vigilant to anything that could be construed as racialy motivated.
    If it is proven that Dunn's motivation was racism, not loud music, then he would deserve to have the hate crime charging/sentencing enhansment leveled against him. But the constant drumbeat of racism is bullshit. The race of the shooter and victim in this case is errelevant unless you can show that that difference was "THE" motivating factor.
    At the end of the day, it really dosen't matter how it "appears". When you look at life through the distorted prism of racism/victim hood, you just become convinced that "those" people are out to get you.
    As far as "people who try to make theses cases seem not racist at all", thier vision is no better/worse than yours. One group has thier collective heads in the sand and the others (you) are running around like chicken little. Stop, catch a breath, an examine the known facts in the case and proceed from there.

  23. #73
    tombastep
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I never said there was "NO" racism, I have no idea what's in the shooters heart, nor do you. Just because there's a conflict between 2 people of different races dosen't automaticaly mean it's a racialy driven event. It seems that there are a few folks around who are hyper-vigilant to anything that could be construed as racialy motivated.
    I didn't say I knew what was in the shooters heart and didn't say anywhere that this was most definitely based on race but the situation is highly questionable. And no two people of different race having a conflict doesn't equal a racist conflict, what I was saying that just because someone wasn't spouting racial slurs doesn't mean it wasn't a racial based crime.

    As far as "people who try to make theses cases seem not racist at all", thier vision is no better/worse than yours. One group has thier collective heads in the sand and the others (you) are running around like chicken little. Stop, catch a breath, an examine the known facts in the case and proceed from there.
    How am I running around like a little chicken? But if I am I guess it's better than you back pedaling by calling your initial response "sarcasm". I never claimed that this was most definitely a racist crime or that I knew all the facts, but as quickly as people are willing to call this a racist crime there are the same people who will quickly claim it is not, facts or not.

  24. #74

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by tombastep View Post
    ...it is a typical thing I hear from white people and it is embarrassing comment to make.
    You are too easily embarrassed.

  25. #75
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I never said there was "NO" racism, I have no idea what's in the shooters heart, nor do you. Just because there's a conflict between 2 people of different races dosen't automaticaly mean it's a racialy driven event. It seems that there are a few folks around who are hyper-vigilant to anything that could be construed as racialy motivated.
    If it is proven that Dunn's motivation was racism, not loud music, then he would deserve to have the hate crime charging/sentencing enhansment leveled against him. But the constant drumbeat of racism is bullshit. The race of the shooter and victim in this case is errelevant unless you can show that that difference was "THE" motivating factor.
    At the end of the day, it really dosen't matter how it "appears". When you look at life through the distorted prism of racism/victim hood, you just become convinced that "those" people are out to get you.
    As far as "people who try to make theses cases seem not racist at all", thier vision is no better/worse than yours. One group has thier collective heads in the sand and the others (you) are running around like chicken little. Stop, catch a breath, an examine the known facts in the case and proceed from there.
    So do I understand your post correctly that it bothers you a lot more that someone might think a white guy going up to black kids in a car and shooting them with absolutely no physical threat might have been racially motivated than that a guy went up to some teenagers and shot them?

    Given the other recent case in Florida and given its horrible law giving people the belief that this kind of behavior is "self-defense" and you have white guys initiating confrontations with black teenagers which end in "self-defense shootings", it's perfectly reasonable to believe race is involved.

  26. #76
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by tombastep View Post
    I didn't say I knew what was in the shooters heart and didn't say anywhere that this was most definitely based on race but the situation is highly questionable. And no two people of different race having a conflict doesn't equal a racist conflict, what I was saying that just because someone wasn't spouting racial slurs doesn't mean it wasn't a racial based crime.



    How am I running around like a little chicken? But if I am I guess it's better than you back pedaling by calling your initial response "sarcasm". I never claimed that this was most definitely a racist crime or that I knew all the facts, but as quickly as people are willing to call this a racist crime there are the same people who will quickly claim it is not, facts or not.

    I didn't call you a "little Chicken", I referenced a characer from a kids book, Chicken Little, who has a acorn fall on his head and jumps to the conclusion that the sky is falling and runs around proclaiming such. (I assumed Chicken Little was a more widely known character, sorry).
    Also, the reference to "you" was not meant as you an individual, but rather you as a part of the collective that continues to promote the narrative as a cut and dried case of racialy inspired violence.
    I love this part "I never claimed that this was most definitely a racist crime or that I new all the facts..." Would that be backpeddaling or an attempt at revisionist history.
    You asserted a conclusion based on incomplete reporting and what appears to be a personaly held bias. I have no idea if this was racialy motivated and I am not claiming it was or wasn't. I, like you, am without all the facts, the difference is, I asume the best while you assume the worst.

  27. #77
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    ^ So you presume this guy was just insane and would shoot any unarmed teenager near his house, and that's the "best"?

    If anything I feel like my interpretation of what happened is a lot kinder than yours. I think this is a prejudiced guy who, like a LOT of white people, is kind of intimidated by black people in general, particularly males, and has the social conditioning that most of us of every race in the United States do that black people are "more dangerous." And when he went up and confronted these kids and they (my assumption) mouthed back (it's legal to play music before 11pm) he felt threatened and reacted. Do I think it COULDN'T have happened with white teenagers? No. Do I think it's equally likely he would have felt equally threatened by white teenagers sitting inside a vehicle to the point where he would shoot them? No.

    And he is claiming self-defense... so his perception of 'threat' is relevant.

    The alternate is to assume he's just a psychopathic nutbar and would have shot anyone who played music, in which case it begs the question of why he hasn't shot random people before. I hardly think of that as the "more positive" interpretation.

  28. #78

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    ...I understand your post correctly ....
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    ...you presume this guy ...(my assumption)...to assume ... interpretation.
    There's LOTS and LOTS of assumptions and presumptions happening here and very little fact.

    And lots of this stuff as well—

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

  29. #79
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So do I understand your post correctly that it bothers you a lot more that someone might think a white guy going up to black kids in a car and shooting them with absolutely no physical threat might have been racially motivated than that a guy went up to some teenagers and shot them?

    Given the other recent case in Florida and given its horrible law giving people the belief that this kind of behavior is "self-defense" and you have white guys initiating confrontations with black teenagers which end in "self-defense shootings", it's perfectly reasonable to believe race is involved.

    Well let's see if I can decipher this. The fact that the guy shot a kid over a loud stereo is rediculous and should be dealt with. But the fact that people are saying it's racialy motivated based on nothing more than skin color is crap. To this point I've heard nothing suggesting the shooters motivation. Was it racial, was it that the guy dislikes loud music, was something said between the two that set this nut off, I don't know, but I doubt you do either, that's why I say we need the full story.
    As to the view of "no phyical threat", we don't know that either. There are now reports that say Dunn claims to have seen a shotgun in the car, weather it's true or not, or weather that would constitue a "physical threat" or not will eventualy be brought to light.

  30. #80
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Well let's see if I can decipher this. The fact that the guy shot a kid over a loud stereo is rediculous and should be dealt with. But the fact that people are saying it's racialy motivated based on nothing more than skin color is crap. To this point I've heard nothing suggesting the shooters motivation. Was it racial, was it that the guy dislikes loud music, was something said between the two that set this nut off, I don't know, but I doubt you do either, that's why I say we need the full story.
    As to the view of "no phyical threat", we don't know that either. There are now reports that say Dunn claims to have seen a shotgun in the car, weather it's true or not, or weather that would constitue a "physical threat" or not will eventualy be brought to light.
    Unless you can explain to me how a guy with a gun standing near a vehicle felt physically threatened by unarmed teenagers, particularly an unarmed teenager in the BACK SEAT of that vehicle, for some other reason, then yes, I believe it's good old fashioned prejudice.

    The guy is claiming it was self-defense so.... you have a better explanation as to why this guy felt "threatened" by an unarmed teen sitting inside a car?

  31. #81
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    There's LOTS and LOTS of assumptions and presumptions happening here and very little fact.

    And lots of this stuff as well—

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
    Please no pure rhetoric responses at lunchtime. At least bother to type out a thought.

  32. #82

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    ^
    I have no thoughts on hearsay. Hearsay and Assumptions isn't evidence.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay

  33. #83
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    ^
    I have no thoughts on hearsay. Hearsay and Assumptions isn't evidence.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay
    Yes and this isn't a court of law so what is your point?

  34. #84

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Yes and this isn't a court of law ...
    this is a court of fools

  35. #85
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    ^ So you presume this guy was just insane and would shoot any unarmed teenager near his house, and that's the "best"?

    If anything I feel like my interpretation of what happened is a lot kinder than yours. I think this is a prejudiced guy who, like a LOT of white people, is kind of intimidated by black people in general, particularly males, and has the social conditioning that most of us of every race in the United States do that black people are "more dangerous." And when he went up and confronted these kids and they (my assumption) mouthed back (it's legal to play music before 11pm) he felt threatened and reacted. Do I think it COULDN'T have happened with white teenagers? No. Do I think it's equally likely he would have felt equally threatened by white teenagers sitting inside a vehicle to the point where he would shoot them? No.

    And he is claiming self-defense... so his perception of 'threat' is relevant.

    The alternate is to assume he's just a psychopathic nutbar and would have shot anyone who played music, in which case it begs the question of why he hasn't shot random people before. I hardly think of that as the "more positive" interpretation.

    I don't presume the guy was/is nuts (clinicaly insane), nor do I assume he would shoot any teenager, something set him off. And it's that "something" that has to be known before anyone can assign a motivation to his actions.
    As to your beleif that he felt threatened, where do you get that from? If he felt threatened why would he approach the car?
    Your take on this situation seems to be primarily based on "feelings", What you "feel" what you believe Dunn "felt", how white people "feel". When you start labeling people you need more than "feelings", FACTS are the meat of the matter, without them you're just pissin' in the wind.

  36. #86
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I don't presume the guy was/is nuts (clinicaly insane), nor do I assume he would shoot any teenager, something set him off. And it's that "something" that has to be known before anyone can assign a motivation to his actions.
    As to your beleif that he felt threatened, where do you get that from? If he felt threatened why would he approach the car?
    Your take on this situation seems to be primarily based on "feelings", What you "feel" what you believe Dunn "felt", how white people "feel". When you start labeling people you need more than "feelings", FACTS are the meat of the matter, without them you're just pissin' in the wind.
    Perhaps you do not understand what "self defense" means. That is his position in his legal defense so far.

    If you are supposing that we can't "assume" he felt threatened then his entire defense is invalid.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 29th, 2012 at 01:19 PM.

  37. #87
    tombastep
    Guest

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    You asserted a conclusion based on incomplete reporting and what appears to be a personaly held bias. I have no idea if this was racialy motivated and I am not claiming it was or wasn't. I, like you, am without all the facts, the difference is, I asume the best while you assume the worst.
    Please quote me where I concluded that this crime was committed based on racist intentions.

  38. #88
    GiancarloC
    Guest

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    this is a court of fools
    Insult people when your own argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

  39. #89
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    gon read it

    thankyou

  40. #90
    MoePhoenix7
    Guest

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by refujiunderground View Post
    that doesn't have anything to do with the thread.
    Yeah, I just gave up at trying to make sense of his posts. He’s just determined to talk in circles and ignore the issue at hand which is racial animosity and how laws like Stand Your Ground greatly perpetuate it. I mean it’s quite simple but whatever. I’m just going to let him stay in his own little bubble of denial, entitlement and privilege.

    So, moving right on along ...



    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I appologise to anyone I offended, it was an attempt at sarcasm that obviously failed.
    Yes, it did ... epically.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Had the kid been white Dunn may have still shot him.
    Ha, I highly doubt it. I bet he wouldn’t have used such extreme violent measures under the very same circumstances against a white teen. I bet he wouldn’t have even asked them to turn down their music if it was a SUV occupied mainly with white teenagers.

    Imo, it just seems like a case of a Clint Eastwood wannabe trying to take back his neighborhood b/c too many thugs and gang bangers have moved in next door with their loud jungle rap music. And that’s just not right. This isn’t what this country is supposed to be about. No one is forced to deal with anyone and their annoying habits. If Dunn didn’t like their loud music, he was more than abled enough to leave and go to another store. I don’t care what words were exchanged, nothing gave that man the right to take someone’s life over loud music being played. Hell, nothing gave him the right to go over to their vehicle in the first place and DEMAND that they turn down their music. Just the fucking nerve of it all. That for some white people it really does seem like they do believe they have liable cause to rule all over any non-white person they wish and designate them to their rightful, lowly places.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    ^ So you presume this guy was just insane and would shoot any unarmed teenager near his house, and that's the "best"?

    If anything I feel like my interpretation of what happened is a lot kinder than yours. I think this is a prejudiced guy who, like a LOT of white people, is kind of intimidated by black people in general, particularly males, and has the social conditioning that most of us of every race in the United States do that black people are "more dangerous." And when he went up and confronted these kids and they (my assumption) mouthed back (it's legal to play music before 11pm) he felt threatened and reacted. Do I think it COULDN'T have happened with white teenagers? No. Do I think it's equally likely he would have felt equally threatened by white teenagers sitting inside a vehicle to the point where he would shoot them? No.

    And he is claiming self-defense... so his perception of 'threat' is relevant.

    The alternate is to assume he's just a psychopathic nutbar and would have shot anyone who played music, in which case it begs the question of why he hasn't shot random people before. I hardly think of that as the "more positive" interpretation.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails darren criss this.gif  

  41. #91
    Hard-up1
    Guest

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    My point remains that the focus of many of your threads and posts is to perpetuate racial animus by exaggerating the implied incidence of it.

  42. #92
    MoePhoenix7
    Guest

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    My point remains that the focus of many of your threads and posts is to perpetuate racial animus by exaggerating the implied incidence of it.
    That's absolute horseshit. I haven't even made that many threads or for that matter posts on this site in the last year or so. And the few I have made were in no way race baiting.

    You're just trying to start something with me personally and I am so not in the mood to stoop that low with you so this will be my last post directed to you.

  43. #93
    Hard-up1
    Guest

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    No, the problem I have is not with you the individual, but the tenor of these continuing race threads in Hot Topics.

    The implication is that whites are oppressing blacks in an ongoing systemic and widespread manner, and that states like Florida are some sort of holdouts of Jim Crow, barely progressed into civil rights or trying hard to go backward.

    Whereas there IS racism in all countries, including the U.S., it is a more complex story than just majorities oppressing minorities. Racial animosity goes both directions across cultural lines, and is problematic in all instances.

    My point was and is that blacks are causing vastly more fatalities to blacks than whites in criminal acts and if the suffering of black Americans is an area of elevated concern, then addressing the larger source of killing is a valid point of focus, even more so than the few instances of racial killings like the subjects of these threads.

    And again, what is the goal? Is it racial harmony through civil rights and legal reform, or is it fostered animosity and role reversal?

    That killings will always erupt in society is a given. That the basis of conflict will always include a range of reasons -- economic, social, racial, religious, romantic, etc. -- is also a given. In that light, a low incidence of racial killing is reprehensible, but hardly surprising, as it is just another dimension of dysfunctional individuals in a world peopled with misanthropes as well as functional people.
    Last edited by Hard-up1; November 30th, 2012 at 06:05 AM.

  44. #94
    GiancarloC
    Guest

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    When people try to talk about racism and the serious issues in America, respond with a deflection about a different topic. Apples and oranges. And yes I agree with MoePhoenix, the point you tried to make is absolute horseshit.

  45. #95
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    No, the problem I have is not with you the individual, but the tenor of these continuing race threads in Hot Topics.

    The implication is that whites are oppressing blacks in an ongoing systemic and widespread manner, and that states like Florida are some sort of holdouts of Jim Crow, barely progressed into civil rights or trying hard to go backward.

    Whereas there IS racism in all countries, including the U.S., it is a more complex story than just majorities oppressing minorities. Racial animosity goes both directions across cultural lines, and is problematic in all instances.

    My point was and is that blacks are causing vastly more fatalities to blacks than whites in criminal acts and if the suffering of black Americans is an area of elevated concern, then addressing the larger source of killing is a valid point of focus, even more so than the few instances of racial killings like the subjects of these threads.

    And again, what is the goal? Is it racial harmony through civil rights and legal reform, or is it fostered animosity and role reversal?

    That killings will always erupt in society is a given. That the basis of conflict will always include a range of reasons -- economic, social, racial, religious, romantic, etc. -- is also a given. In that light, a low incidence of racial killing is reprehensible, but hardly surprising, as it is just another dimension of dysfunctional individuals in a world peopled with misanthropes as well as functional people.
    If this is what you legitimately believe then why has your main driving point been "black on black crime" as a way to drown out these instances? Why aren't you talking about all these purportedly equal and opposite black on white crimes that appear to be encouraged or empowered by bad laws that seem to endorse confrontational vigilantism?

    Stand your Ground is a bad law. Why is this difficult to admit? And why do you keep going on and on about people going "nuts about Florida" when at least according to your info you don't even live there?

    If anything rather than all of us engaging in some "concerted effort to exaggerate the race animus" I have seen actually you doing the complete opposite-- trying to be a crusader insisting that cases that actually DO look racially motivated are just our overactive imaginations and you can't assume bad laws or cowboy-minded white people who go up to minorities with a gun and do ILLEGAL THINGS (like demanding that they turn off their music, or stalking them on their way home holding iced tea and skittles) and wind up shooting them to death were remotely influenced by racial animosity?

    When the stories start coming in with people claiming it was "self defense" after they shot white unarmed teenagers doing nothing wrong to death you'll have a leg to stand on here.

  46. #96

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    ...Stand your Ground is a bad law. Why is this difficult to admit? And why do you keep going on and on about ...
    Yes it is a ridiculous law.
    But belabouring and inventing facts about this particular incident helps no one.

  47. #97
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Yes it is a ridiculous law.
    But belabouring and inventing facts about this particular incident helps no one.
    No one invented anything other than from the perspective of people who believe it's completely ordinary to go up to unarmed teenagers and shoot them for no reason we can possibly fathom.

    i.e. you and Hard-up.

  48. #98

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    ^
    Beachguy invented the 'fact' that people playing their music loud for two minutes was cause for shooting them in post #39

  49. #99
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    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    ^
    Beachguy invented the 'fact' that people playing their music loud for two minutes was cause for shooting them in post #39
    This is your entire problem with the discussion?

    Really you're just making it look more like what I already suspect which is that you'll grasp any possible nitpick as an excuse to absolve this guy of what the picture makes look most obvious.

  50. #100

    Re: Argument over loud music leads to the fatal shooting of a Florida teen

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This is your entire problem with the discussion?...
    I believe in discussions using factual evidence but your comments back in #78 make me think you want free-wheeling, fast and loose, 'who shot John', assumptions, presumptions and prejudging.

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