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  1. #1
    JUB Addict CoolBlue71's Avatar
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    The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    This is one more article concerning, in some form, a realigning presidential period. That we are in one now which favors the Democratic Party. Past ones, since the formation of the Republican Party in the 1850s, came in 1860 (Republican, with Abraham Lincoln); 1896 (Republican, with William McKinley); 1932 (Democratic, with Franklin Roosevelt); and 1968 (Republican, with Richard Nixon). Those believing that 2008 (Democratic, with Barack Obama) was the start of a new period can harken back to those previous realigning ones. Ones in which there was at least a catalyst, an event, which caused the electorate to turn out the party which was in power (1860: Democratic, with James Buchanan; 1896: Democratic, with Grover Cleveland; 1932: Republican, with Herbert Hoover; 1968: Democratic, with Lyndon Johnson; and, with the most recent case, 2008: Republican, with George W. Bush) and turn to the opposition party [and nominated candidate] for dealing with such crises and getting the country back to some form of health. After all those realigning election years, the following cycle resulted in the newly advantageous party prevailing for a second straight victory (as is the case with the Democrats in 2012). Bob Shrum's article highlights numerous characteristics so dumb and destructive of this current Republican Party.




    The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    By Bob Shrum
    Nov. 26, 2012 | http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...on-losses.html

    So here is the Republican Party reinventing itself. The GOP majority in the Ohio legislature rushes to defund Planned Parenthood in its post-election session. The orange-tinted speaker of the House proposes to undo Obamacare through “oversight” in the name of “solving our debt and restoring prosperity.” Never mind that health-care reform doesn’t raise the deficit but reduces it. Or that “a new low,” 33 percent of Americans, the anti-Obama bitter-enders, still favor repealing the law (PDF). And a rising star in the GOP future, Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, offers a dim view out of the pre-Darwinian past that maybe the Earth was created in seven days—and that since “theologians” disagree, we should teach “multiple theories.”

  2. #2
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Until they change their party philosophy, it's most likely they will remain there. There is every indication that they will continue on their current path, though, to be sure, after reading the base performance here.

    Clearly they are not a fact driven party.
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    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Yeah a lot of the election-night analysis focused on the fact that Romney actually won virtually the precise margins of the white (male) vote demographically as George Bush Sr. did--- but that the electorate has changed, and that this is no longer enough to carry an election. (Much to the chagrin of nativists and reactionaries, I'm sure.) The GOP has to come to grips with the fact that telling self-satisfied white men everything they want to hear and like to believe about gays, Mexicans and blacks is something they've made virtually their entire platform at least in the social arena, and that this is now a non-viable political strategy. As I remember one commentator putting it-- "strangely enough, when you campaign promising that you're going to make the lives of millions of people in this country so miserable that they'll leave this country, those millions of people aren't going to vote for you."

    GOP either has to do a much better job of hiding and dodging all the topics that lose them votes from non white males than Romney and previous Republicans did, or they have to change their platforms. Though the latter will enrage a huge portion of their voting base.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Well it is like building your home on a foundation of horse shit and asbestos... using lunatics for labor.... eventually you realize the horseshit stinks, the asbestos is gonna kill you and the lunatics are doing all the talking points. Yet with out each of those very undesirable groups you have no group large enough to be a political force.....

    So you spray febreeze on the shit, tell the lunatics to shut the fuck up and hold your nose while walking past the asbestos and try to sell it.....
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Yeah a lot of the election-night analysis focused on the fact that Romney actually won virtually the precise margins of the white (male) vote demographically as George Bush Sr. did--- but that the electorate has changed, and that this is no longer enough to carry an election. (Much to the chagrin of nativists and reactionaries, I'm sure.) The GOP has to come to grips with the fact that telling self-satisfied white men everything they want to hear and like to believe about gays, Mexicans and blacks is something they've made virtually their entire platform at least in the social arena, and that this is now a non-viable political strategy.

    GOP either has to do a much better job of hiding and dodging all the topics that lose them votes from non white males than Romney and previous Republicans did, or they have to change their platforms. Though the latter will enrage a huge portion of their voting base.
    I tend to agree with Frumm. Until the GOP separates itself from the conservative entertainment complex, it will remain in the wilderness. We have leadership of the party, in effect, taken over by an industry that is more interested in selling advertisements and ratings, than with winning an election.

    Look at the Rove meltdown on air. It all fell apart, and now the GOP has to either support the Industry that can devastate them as individuals, or break free, and get some common sense back in, regardless of the ratings.
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    JUB Addict CoolBlue71's Avatar
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Yeah a lot of the election-night analysis focused on the fact that Romney actually won virtually the precise margins of the white (male) vote demographically as George Bush Sr. did--- but that the electorate has changed, and that this is no longer enough to carry an election. (Much to the chagrin of nativists and reactionaries, I'm sure.)
    Steve Schmidt mentioned this on MSNBC's election-night coverage. About 60 or 61 percent of the white vote was nationally won by both 1988 George Bush and 2012 Mitt Romney. In the case of Bush, that was good for carriage of 40 states, a national margin of R+7.73, and 426 electoral votes. In the case of Romney, that was good for 24 states, a national margin loss [all numbers not official yet but with a latest estimated high-2s/low-3s], and 206 electoral votes.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    As I noted over the past couple of weeks, a lot of Republicans still think that they lost because they weren't socially or fiscally conservative enough.

    Some of the realists see the writing on the wall and know that the jig is up. They are moving away from Norquist and the fringe fundamentalists.

    So which faction wins control over the GOP narrative for the next 4 years?

    Obviously, if the GOP lose the next Presidential election, they are definitely out in the wilderness for the next decade after that as the pragmatists work to get what they want out of the Democratic representatives and Presidency.

  8. #8
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    This whole year is turning into a blessing. I was expecting a close election like 280 electoral votes for Obama or so... I didn't expect for them to get the ass kicking they did. And it certainly was an ass kicking no matter how they glossed over it. They couldn't even win a seat in the Senate... they lost seats in both the Senate and the House. And the fact that the democrats have over 200 seats in the House leaves them in striking distance in recapturing the House despite redistricting done in 2010.

    The republicans are so screwed... and they don't even have a clue about how messed up their situation is. They complain that Mitt Romney wasn't fiscally or socially conservative enough... and some claim that conservatives didn't get out to vote. A bunch of horse manure. Conservatives are a shrinking part of the American voting public...

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    The party lives in the past with same agenda since the 1920's to cut taxes on the rich and economy with flurish. Plus they still worship Reagan, the religious right, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and list goes on.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    As I noted over the past couple of weeks, a lot of Republicans still think that they lost because they weren't socially or fiscally conservative enough.

    Some of the realists see the writing on the wall and know that the jig is up. They are moving away from Norquist and the fringe fundamentalists.

    So which faction wins control over the GOP narrative for the next 4 years?

    Obviously, if the GOP lose the next Presidential election, they are definitely out in the wilderness for the next decade after that as the pragmatists work to get what they want out of the Democratic representatives and Presidency.
    If they lose the White House in 2016, that is when the real soul searching will start. Losing 3x in a row is a rebuke. The Democrats have gone through this situation before and recovered so I won't make any calls until at least 2015.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    This whole year is turning into a blessing. I was expecting a close election like 280 electoral votes for Obama or so... I didn't expect for them to get the ass kicking they did. And it certainly was an ass kicking no matter how they glossed over it. They couldn't even win a seat in the Senate... they lost seats in both the Senate and the House. And the fact that the democrats have over 200 seats in the House leaves them in striking distance in recapturing the House despite redistricting done in 2010.

    The republicans are so screwed... and they don't even have a clue about how messed up their situation is. They complain that Mitt Romney wasn't fiscally or socially conservative enough... and some claim that conservatives didn't get out to vote. A bunch of horse manure. Conservatives are a shrinking part of the American voting public...
    Even if the GOP WANTS to change its platform now... my question would be how much success are they going to actually have doing that when the typical GOP voter is tuning in to Fox News.... not to newspapers, publications, ... facts... voting records...

  12. #12
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Even if the GOP WANTS to change its platform now... my question would be how much success are they going to actually have doing that when the typical GOP voter is tuning in to Fox News.... not to newspapers, publications, ... facts... voting records...
    The problem with the GOP is they are stuck in a "catch 22" situation. Their most vocal base are social conservatives and many have a lot of money... so they keep bankrolling these fringe candidates. Their is just too much money and too much sway for the party to radically change.

  13. #13

    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    If only it were true , but with Fox "News" leading the charge (note: they actually went to court to defend their right to lie , using their Entertainment license for the network as cover) and Americans having a very short memory span these days , their brains will again very soon be filled with faux Obama and Democratic party outrages on a regular basis .

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    when was the last election Bob Shrum won for his candidate?

    and he makes mitt romney seem hip

    The GOP will survive and perhaps thrive if:

    they modify their anti latino anti young person policies - the former vis a vis immigration; the latter vis a vis social narrowness
    the current president's economic policy leads to a worse vs. a better economy

    if neither happens, hillary in 2016

    and the repubs will be left with local/state power - governorships, etc.

    i personally thing the repubs have all the proof they need that come the republican primary next election, moderation is the starting point not the thing u find out about their candidate in the debates

    but bob schrum is a partisan idiot and having he as the source here devalues it to nothing

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    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    the current president's economic policy leads to a worse vs. a better economy
    Right 8 years of Bush definitely proved that the GOP's economic platform is great for our economy.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    If the Republicans want to keep from losing even worse in 2016, losing control of the House, losing more seats in the Senate, and getting less than 180 electoral for president, I only see one effective avenue for appealing to the public: support an amendment to limit all political rights to living, breathing citizens and legal residents. Unfortunately for them, to actually pass such a thing would leave them up a creek, no paddles, and the bottom of the canoe ripped out.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #17
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Right 8 years of Bush definitely proved that the GOP's economic platform is great for our economy.
    This President has helped this country on the path of a steady recovery and the American public agreed (the 64.5 million of the people who voted for Obama).

  18. #18
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Right 8 years of Bush definitely proved that the GOP's economic platform is great for our economy.
    It's a hypothetical IF

    Not a statement

    Who knows maybe class warfare will work as economic policy not just a divisive campaign strategy

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    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Why are conversations with you like



    this?

  20. #20
    GiancarloC
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Class warfare? What class warfare?

    That statement is pile of BS.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-...154837437.html

    Even the wealthy supported Obama.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If the Republicans want to keep from losing even worse in 2016, losing control of the House, losing more seats in the Senate, and getting less than 180 electoral for president, I only see one effective avenue for appealing to the public: support an amendment to limit all political rights to living, breathing citizens and legal residents. Unfortunately for them, to actually pass such a thing would leave them up a creek, no paddles, and the bottom of the canoe ripped out.
    How's this?


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    It's a hypothetical IF

    Not a statement

    Who knows maybe class warfare will work as economic policy not just a divisive campaign strategy
    We'll never know. The class warfare candidate got defeated.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Class warfare? What class warfare?
    Chance means the class warfare the GOP has been waging against the middle class and the poor since 1981.

    The people that their presidential candidate said he would not represent.


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails bs121126.gif  

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Oh didn't you guys get the post-it? Class warfare is the new code for race warfare. It just sounds better than saying minorities vs. whites.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Mayeb but in the meatime,they will due their best at the local and state level to pass as many anti-abortion and anti-gay bills as possible.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    with all the hype about how it was Obama vs Romney it just turned out to be much simpler than that.


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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses



    AMNESTY:



    TAXING THE WEALTHY:



    SOCIAL SECURITY:



    1980: Elected
    1984: Re-elected by a landslide
    2012: Unelectable

    The current GOP (not Republican) is already in the wilderness. To the true-believers of 2012: find another hero.

    ...with history the final judge of our deeds. - JFK

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    The Republicans were due for the figurative 40 years in the desert that both parties have to take from time to time to reinvent themselves and evaluate where they have drifted out of touch with the people. For the Democrats the last time was Reagan and Bush I and the result was Bill Clinton. The Republicans should have taken that walk in 2008 when the war weary public handed them defeat to an inexperienced populist candidate. But they didn't, instead they hitched their hopes on a bad economy, public dissatisfaction with Obama driving health care against popular opinion and yes the racist backlash of the first black president. The simple fact is and they Republicans should be realizing it now is no matter how beatable the incumbent is, they are not going to come back into real power till they take that figurative wandering to deal with their own house. But it won't take as long as some people think, all the gleeful predictions of the doom of the Republican party is just echoing the same talk about the Democrats in the Reagan/Bush years, once a party starts to address its own issues they can spring back pretty quickly, they just need to find the right voice to lead the change. So any predictions on who the Republican equivalent of Bill Clinton will be?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The Republicans were due for the figurative 40 years in the desert that both parties have to take from time to time to reinvent themselves and evaluate where they have drifted out of touch with the people. For the Democrats the last time was Reagan and Bush I and the result was Bill Clinton. The Republicans should have taken that walk in 2008 when the war weary public handed them defeat to an inexperienced populist candidate. But they didn't, instead they hitched their hopes on a bad economy, public dissatisfaction with Obama driving health care against popular opinion and yes the racist backlash of the first black president. The simple fact is and they Republicans should be realizing it now is no matter how beatable the incumbent is, they are not going to come back into real power till they take that figurative wandering to deal with their own house. But it won't take as long as some people think, all the gleeful predictions of the doom of the Republican party is just echoing the same talk about the Democrats in the Reagan/Bush years, once a party starts to address its own issues they can spring back pretty quickly, they just need to find the right voice to lead the change. So any predictions on who the Republican equivalent of Bill Clinton will be?
    I'm not certain there can be one. The GOP elephangelical base isn't going to move, which means there can't be any restructuring except on aesthetic matters. The Democrats responded to their situation by looking at what the people of the country needed; the GOP core responds by digging in and becoming more firmly extreme. Anyone who wants to remake the Republican party is going to have to have one foot firmly planted in that elephangelical foxhole -- which means he can't plant the other very far away.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  30. #30
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'm not certain there can be one. The GOP elephangelical base isn't going to move, which means there can't be any restructuring except on aesthetic matters. The Democrats responded to their situation by looking at what the people of the country needed; the GOP core responds by digging in and becoming more firmly extreme. Anyone who wants to remake the Republican party is going to have to have one foot firmly planted in that elephangelical foxhole -- which means he can't plant the other very far away.
    You know what? I see your pessimism, and raise you the last election cycle. How many people said "the RR and the social conservatives will never vote for a mormon"? Yet when the chips were down, they went and grudgingly did.

    The truth is, as much as the GOP needs the crazy right, the crazy right HAS NO OTHER CHOICES. Same as gays with the Democrats. The GOP can actually move WAY center without significantly harming its positions with its base.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'm not certain there can be one. The GOP elephangelical base isn't going to move, which means there can't be any restructuring except on aesthetic matters. The Democrats responded to their situation by looking at what the people of the country needed; the GOP core responds by digging in and becoming more firmly extreme. Anyone who wants to remake the Republican party is going to have to have one foot firmly planted in that elephangelical foxhole -- which means he can't plant the other very far away.

    Unless they just say fuck off to the fundies and move on. Which is the only hope for them, and you can see the smart ones all know it, they're going to have to part ways with the fat man on the radio as well.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You know what? I see your pessimism, and raise you the last election cycle. How many people said "the RR and the social conservatives will never vote for a mormon"? Yet when the chips were down, they went and grudgingly did.

    The truth is, as much as the GOP needs the crazy right, the crazy right HAS NO OTHER CHOICES. Same as gays with the Democrats. The GOP can actually move WAY center without significantly harming its positions with its base.
    I don't know, my talibangelical (credit to Kuli) relatives were disinclined to vote for a heretic and about half of them say they didn't vote, or voted libertarian (Texans have a huge Libertarian streak.) My batshit crazy, bible thumpin' Great Aunt Irene (the stereotype in your head right now can't possible capture her God fueled magnificence,) went so far as to say that God made Romney lose because he wasn't a Christian - which I'm sure she got from the preacher.
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    forgot, yes the crazy right has another choice, they can opt out of trying to be the Taliban. Thing is, they've gotten used to having the power to bully the Pubs and the country with their crazy, and THAT is the problem. They didn't used to BE all that political.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'm not certain there can be one. The GOP elephangelical base isn't going to move, which means there can't be any restructuring except on aesthetic matters. The Democrats responded to their situation by looking at what the people of the country needed; the GOP core responds by digging in and becoming more firmly extreme. Anyone who wants to remake the Republican party is going to have to have one foot firmly planted in that elephangelical foxhole -- which means he can't plant the other very far away.
    The Republicans are kind of fucked. This isn't to say that they cannot make a comeback. I, however, wonder if they are more likely to go the way of the Whigs. Irreconcilable differences over slavery broke the party up, which led to the founding of the Republican Party.

    The Republicans' problem is the divide over social issues, including immigration. If they move to the left on abortion, contraception, marriage equality, they will upset the religious base. If the Republican Party and Democratic Party end up in the same place on those issues, why would poor and working class whites stick with a party of elites that will cut programs that benefit them. This is especially true of Catholic voters. Catholic doctrine favors big government action to address economic problems and is very much in favor of welfare state and pro-labor union policies. I know practicing Catholics who would vote Democratic all the time but for their stand on abortion.

    Adopting a less harsh anti-immigrant stance won't help because it would alienate whites, and help very little with minorities. The Republicans do not seem to realize that Latinos and Asians vote Democratic more because they believe in "big government" than because of GOP anti-immigrant rhetoric.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Imma co-sign ya Bankside... couldnt have said it better. No really I couldnt....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The Republicans are kind of fucked. This isn't to say that they cannot make a comeback. I, however, wonder if they are more likely to go the way of the Whigs. Irreconcilable differences over slavery broke the party up, which led to the founding of the Republican Party.

    The Republicans' problem is the divide over social issues, including immigration. If they move to the left on abortion, contraception, marriage equality, they will upset the religious base. If the Republican Party and Democratic Party end up in the same place on those issues, why would poor and working class whites stick with a party of elites that will cut programs that benefit them. This is especially true of Catholic voters. Catholic doctrine favors big government action to address economic problems and is very much in favor of welfare state and pro-labor union policies. I know practicing Catholics who would vote Democratic all the time but for their stand on abortion.

    Adopting a less harsh anti-immigrant stance won't help because it would alienate whites, and help very little with minorities. The Republicans do not seem to realize that Latinos and Asians vote Democratic more because they believe in "big government" than because of GOP anti-immigrant rhetoric.
    love the "kinda fucked" and the idea of you with the little old lady (with glasses) "saying" it

    you're right

    social issue math is against em but if they vacate, they prob lose more than they win vote wise anyway - cause the crazies that require that pledge are crazy and will stay away or separate

    and i think your "big govt." play for latinos and asians is dead on - add african americans to that list

    it's the math stupid

    so the best the repubs can do is to hang/win statewide - o/w it's katy bar the door

    and we're greece w/o the fun

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    The Greece stuff is funny scare tactics by those who don't understand economics.

    Like I said before I sincerely hope they stick to their republican guns for the next two years so they can be vanquished from the house too...

    Plus two years will give democrats enough time to make some more wooden stakes and silver bullets.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    I don't know, my talibangelical (credit to Kuli) relatives were disinclined to vote for a heretic and about half of them say they didn't vote, or voted libertarian (Texans have a huge Libertarian streak.) My batshit crazy, bible thumpin' Great Aunt Irene (the stereotype in your head right now can't possible capture her God fueled magnificence,) went so far as to say that God made Romney lose because he wasn't a Christian - which I'm sure she got from the preacher.
    Yeah, that's gonna last an election or two, until they realize other parties don't really properly exist here, and then it will be the Family Guy Tea Party episode:

    "But who would wanna take a fat guy with lots of opinions, who doesn't like to listen?"
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Well, the talibangelicals are the loudest on the crazy front, but there are a bunch of white people who don't like gays and blacks and the Mex'cans who of course all swam the Rio Grande, who don't really care about god either but are happy to go right along with the crazy if it means catering to all their favorite, fashionable prejudices, no one likes to talk about them, and some of them are Gay Pubs who want to be gay and hate wetbacks too - but I suspect there are more like that than there are actual serious talibangelicals.

    One would hope that the Libertarians could ORGANIZE an attempt to take them out, but alas, asking Libertarians to organize is like asking cats to march in lockstep.
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'm not certain there can be one. The GOP elephangelical base isn't going to move, which means there can't be any restructuring except on aesthetic matters. The Democrats responded to their situation by looking at what the people of the country needed; the GOP core responds by digging in and becoming more firmly extreme. Anyone who wants to remake the Republican party is going to have to have one foot firmly planted in that elephangelical foxhole -- which means he can't plant the other very far away.
    I have to agree. I'm sure it sounds like wishful thinking to Republicans but as long as I'm still hearing the same thing Republicans said as to why they did badly in the 2nd term of Bush and then with McCain... "we weren't conservative enough", I hold dim hope that they've recognized the real problem as to why they're losing touch. I'm sure all the smart, savvy, analytical people doing numberswork for the party in think tanks or behind the scenes knows it in the GOP, but translating that into changing what GOP voters demand to hear and what GOP candidates have to go out and say to get their votes is another matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The Greece stuff is funny scare tactics by those who don't understand economics.

    Like I said before I sincerely hope they stick to their republican guns for the next two years so they can be vanquished from the house too...

    Plus two years will give democrats enough time to make some more wooden stakes and silver bullets.
    But will it give us enough time to resurrect Abraham Lincoln so he can use those stakes and bullets to kill the vampires?

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Well, the talibangelicals are the loudest on the crazy front, but there are a bunch of white people who don't like gays and blacks and the Mex'cans who of course all swam the Rio Grande, who don't really care about god either but are happy to go right along with the crazy if it means catering to all their favorite, fashionable prejudices, no one likes to talk about them, and some of them are Gay Pubs who want to be gay and hate wetbacks too - but I suspect there are more like that than there are actual serious talibangelicals.

    One would hope that the Libertarians could ORGANIZE an attempt to take them out, but alas, asking Libertarians to organize is like asking cats to march in lockstep.
    You're right that that group is bigger than probably most gay people would be comfortable to admit. I'd almost say there's a big contingent of gay people who are like the opposite of pale's depiction of Catholics-- they're people who'd vote Republican if not for the sole issue of their stance on gay rights. And many don't even care about that. The number of gay people who are Democratic voters solely on the gay marriage issue and seem on the surface to be incorrigible progressives but couldn't really be distinguished from any other white male voter on virtually any other issue is higher than people believe.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'm not certain there can be one. The GOP elephangelical base isn't going to move, which means there can't be any restructuring except on aesthetic matters. The Democrats responded to their situation by looking at what the people of the country needed; the GOP core responds by digging in and becoming more firmly extreme. Anyone who wants to remake the Republican party is going to have to have one foot firmly planted in that elephangelical foxhole -- which means he can't plant the other very far away.
    I don't think that is as big a trap as you think, the Evangelical wing of the party was already losing influence and losing this election will only accelerate that process. We are already hearing noises in the evangelical ranks that perhaps they have become too involved in the politics of this world instead of focusing on the what is important, the next. You are also hearing noises out side that wing of the party that they need to expand the tent or die. I can see an effective leader in the party gaining evangelical support (grudgingly) by paying homage to the abortion issue where they still have a chance of selling the party line to the people and gaining back lost moderate votes by simply pointing to the demographics and admitting that same sex marriage is a lost cause and continuing to pursue it is a suicide pact.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Stardreamer the republicans have been talking about making the tent bigger for years ... even back when i was drinking their koolaid...

    The problem is their policy and no one is talking about that aspect... except immigration.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Stardreamer the republicans have been talking about making the tent bigger for years ... even back when i was drinking their koolaid...

    The problem is their policy and no one is talking about that aspect... except immigration.
    Yup. I actually have to say I was surprised at the blunt lack of forethought with which Romney blurted on a lot of social issues in a time where people were already pretty convinced he was a white oligarch member of a funky religion. McCain actually did a far better job in terms of not blurting out "wtf are you trying to lose votes?" comments on most social issues than Romney did.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Stardreamer the republicans have been talking about making the tent bigger for years ... even back when i was drinking their koolaid...

    The problem is their policy and no one is talking about that aspect... except immigration.
    Of course not because the RINO hunters have taken over the party and wanting to apply purity tests that even Reagan wouldn't have passed to all the candidates. You can't even remain a major party that way much less grow it. That is one of the things that leadership is going to have to address in that desert wandering.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Yet as is evident by the current budget talks where they trotted out one of the most conservative members of the party to offer up saving the tax rate on 98% of America and the party cut him off at the knees. The unfortunate thing is that the psychos are still in power until the new congress... the same though goes for the party... look across the nation and you see plenty of places that became republican super majorities in the various states.... those folks have a ton of sway in who gets the nod and who gets shredded in the Primarys...
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I don't think that is as big a trap as you think, the Evangelical wing of the party was already losing influence and losing this election will only accelerate that process. We are already hearing noises in the evangelical ranks that perhaps they have become too involved in the politics of this world instead of focusing on the what is important, the next. You are also hearing noises out side that wing of the party that they need to expand the tent or die. I can see an effective leader in the party gaining evangelical support (grudgingly) by paying homage to the abortion issue where they still have a chance of selling the party line to the people and gaining back lost moderate votes by simply pointing to the demographics and admitting that same sex marriage is a lost cause and continuing to pursue it is a suicide pact.
    I can only see that if some moderately known 'evangelical' leader decides to agree with Pat Robertson about drugs and to embrace the not uncommon scholarly view that Jesus declared separation of church and state before any form of government entertained it. He'd lost a bunch of stubborn evangelicals, but could hold enough to achieve some change.


    edit: I also think the Democrats could pull the rug out from any growth the GOP might get from that by making "no new gun laws" a platform plank and supporting a national concealed carry reciprocity bill. Then if they changed the law so that only the nastiest of illegal drugs were under federal authority and the rest were passed to the states, they'd pull some states' rights people from the middle. Do that, keep the economy from collapsing again, and I'd give odds the next three presidents would all be Democrats.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; December 1st, 2012 at 08:18 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    When it comes to agenda ... what good is a Democratic president in 2016 unless you have both a Democratic Senate AND a Democratic HOUSE to go along with him/her?

    People don't seem to quite get it, even after all this time. The president, in actuality, has very little power unless the stars align in the Legislative Branch. And thanks to the gerrymandering on the part of GOP state Governors in redrawing the districts to a GOP advantage in the House, this has made re-gaining control of it much more difficult for the Dems.

    The Democrats absolutely have to find a way to get out of the tunnel vision of solely focusing on the presidency, and motivating the base to get out and vote in HUGE numbers in the 2014 congressional election to overcome the gerrymandering of the GOP. Otherwise we can keep cheering on the president, but keep wondering why the needle isn't budging.

    Threatening and bullying the GOP doesn't do a damn thing. They need to be removed from office by voting them out. That is the only way for progress to occur.
    Telling it like it is.

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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I can only see that if some moderately known 'evangelical' leader decides to agree with Pat Robertson about drugs and to embrace the not uncommon scholarly view that Jesus declared separation of church and state before any form of government entertained it. He'd lost a bunch of stubborn evangelicals, but could hold enough to achieve some change.


    edit: I also think the Democrats could pull the rug out from any growth the GOP might get from that by making "no new gun laws" a platform plank and supporting a national concealed carry reciprocity bill. Then if they changed the law so that only the nastiest of illegal drugs were under federal authority and the rest were passed to the states, they'd pull some states' rights people from the middle. Do that, keep the economy from collapsing again, and I'd give odds the next three presidents would all be Democrats.
    I still think there is an overestimation of how strong the hold the evangelical wing of the party has on the party as a whole. The Moral Majority was embraced in the 80s because they were a winning voting block to embrace, that has changed and their influence is waning. Even if they don't change their stance, real politic will eventually cause the party to drop them. Oh they may still pay them lip service but the Party is going to do what it needs to do to gain votes and if the current demographics continue social conservative issues other than abortion are no longer game winners. I think the party has swung about as far right as it can really, I am expecting the pendulum to start swinging back before too much longer, it already happened in part with the fiscal conservative wing of the party surging to the forefront though it needs some moderation too. If things start swinging back towards the libertarian side the party should right itself politically. I know folks around here would love to see the party ride the social conservative plan down in flames but that not how things tend to work in life.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    The moral majority isn't the block pushing the pubs, the teabaggers are - and their influence doesn't seem to be waning, in fact it looks like they are hell bent on taking the Pubs down with them.

    "Realpolitik," whatever you mean by that is pretty pointless when the people who vote for you ARE the problem.

    There isn't this huge helpless majority of sane "fiscal conservative," republicans who are golly gee just wringing their helpless little hands, the Pub base AGREES with the crazy, or it wouldn't be there in the first place. Pretending otherwise is just foolish.
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    Re: The GOP Faces Years in the Wilderness After 2012 Election Losses

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The moral majority isn't the block pushing the pubs, the teabaggers are - and their influence doesn't seem to be waning, in fact it looks like they are hell bent on taking the Pubs down with them.

    "Realpolitik," whatever you mean by that is pretty pointless when the people who vote for you ARE the problem.

    There isn't this huge helpless majority of sane "fiscal conservative," republicans who are golly gee just wringing their helpless little hands, the Pub base AGREES with the crazy, or it wouldn't be there in the first place. Pretending otherwise is just foolish.
    I agree.

    The same people who disavow the crazy social agenda stuff and claim they vote Republican on fiscal issues alone are remarkably quick to downplay racist "oops" statements, heavy religious trappings and recklessly nationalistic statements from the people they vote for. Enough so on a wide and consistent enough basis that I don't buy into the whole notion that the GOP is 85% old-school conservatives who are just held hostage by the crazies.

    The lockstep mindset of "defend our own/united front" among Republicans IS part of the problem because no one will be the one to stand up and throw out the religious crazies or the social crazies. They go along with it, downplay it, and make excuses for it. Maybe they even secretly agree with it--- they might as well, it makes no difference how they feel about it when they do go and vote for those candidates just because of the R after their name. The effect is the same.

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