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  1. #1

    Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    We will still be in Afghanistan after 2014. 10,000 troops will be staying.

    Obama lied about the 2014 complete withdrawal. No word on when, if ever we will ever withdrawal.

    The WSJ report explains that according to the new plan, Americans who remain in Afghanistan after 2014 would conduct
    training and counterterrorism
    programs with Afghan soldiers. Any presence by Americans in Afghanistan past 2014 would require the approval of Afghan President Hamid Karzai, though Karzai likely wants U.S. troops to fall under the jurisdiction of Afghan court. Similar demands led to the complete withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq.
    If the plan goes through look for a mass exodus of people from the military. People will not voluntarily serve if they don't have the protection of the USA.

    http://www.france24.com/en/20121126-...ato-withdrawal


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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    The biggest disappointments on Obama has been his foreign policy.

    And weren't they suppose to close Guantanamo Bay like ages ago?

  3. #3

    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    He just kills people with drones after he plays his weekly "Pick-a-Card Kill Game." Saves on room and board.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-revealed.html

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    To be fair I think its impossible to become the president of the US without supporting the war machine which is very powerful in the country. War is big business in America.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    GTMO was blocked from being closed by the republicans in the House and Senate so that the uninformed could claim that was a promise Obama did not keep. Of course there is criticism on GTMO. The same military tribunals that were not acceptable under Bush to democratic fundies was then offered as the solution by the same democratic fundies. So it is quite understandable that republicans should fight back. Regardless to either side that untried imprisoned terrorist were suffering due to their indecision. Of course, not many people give two flying fucks about terrorist so there ya go.

    As far as the concept of not having a SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) with Afghanistan for our folks on the ground to be under the judicial authority of the United States only. And to think they would fall under Afghanistan justice system and we would stay is utter non-sense. We lost 4000 lives and countless treasure and yet walked away from Iraq with no SOFA. The only country we have an agreement with them on what cases are to be tried (Rape, murder) when they occur is with Japan. That is a negotiation with an established rule of law country who investigative techniques and burden of proof rival our own justice system. It will be given to no other country. So please take your hysterics elsewhere.

    Finally, was there any human being on planet earth that was under the misconstrued idea that we would spend trillions fighting a war in a strategic country in the Middle east to walk away? No presence? ANyone human who thought that must be the most ignorant moron that has EVER walked planet earth.
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    We will still be in Afghanistan after 2014. 10,000 troops will be staying.
    The New York Times reporting presents a less-definitive number.

    Under the emerging plan, the American counterterrorism force might number less than 1,000, one military official said But one option calls for about 10,000 American and several thousand non-American NATO troops. [NYT]

  7. #7

    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    I love the way Americans don't think and just want to do.... Afghan is one of the largest producers of heroin in the world, mostly run by terrorists.... If you leave afghan, and they can increase production, make more money, buy and train more terrorist. Which country do you think will be on top of their wish list to attack?


    So throw your tantrums, but you will be the ones complaining when you are attacked. Sad thing is, this war will go on for decades because it is a religious war to them. Most devout religious people will die for their religions. Situations change, one moment it looks like the afghan forces can control the country, and then they are the ones with taliban insurgents.
    Last edited by r0ckst4r; November 26th, 2012 at 10:54 AM.

  8. #8
    loki81
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    wouldn't really be a surprise... for all the proclamations of "omg, Obama got us out of Iraq," the President actually wanted to leave thousands of troops in the country.

    the only reason why we still don't have boots on the ground isn't because of some commitment to ending the war, it's because the Iraqi government kicked us out.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by r0ckst4r View Post
    I love the way Americans don't think and just want to do.... Afghan is one of the largest producers of heroin in the world, mostly run by terrorists.... If you leave afghan, and they can increase production, make more money, buy and train more terrorist. Which country do you think will be on top of their wish list to attack?


    So throw your tantrums, but you will be the ones complaining when you are attacked. Sad thing is, this war will go on for decades because it is a religious war to them. Most devout religious people will die for their religions. Situations change, one moment it looks like the afghan forces can control the country, and then they are the ones with taliban insurgents.
    It was really strange how surprised most Americans were when 9/11 happened. It was very predictable in my opinion.

    The sad part is that most Americans still don't realize why it happened and believe it happened because they hate freedom, even though it was made clear that it was done because of American interference in the middle east.

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    That's because many Americans live under the delusion that America is somehow magically "freer" than the rest of the world...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Geiri85 View Post
    It was really strange how surprised most Americans were when 9/11 happened. It was very predictable in my opinion.

    The sad part is that most Americans still don't realize why it happened and believe it happened because they hate freedom, even though it was made clear that it was done because of American interference in the middle east.
    Most Americans didn't even know that the twin towers had been targetted before by terrorism. Not even getting into why in the world anyone would ever have the slightest, most remote possible reason to ever want to use terrorism against us, which most people were equally clueless about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    That's because many Americans live under the delusion that America is somehow magically "freer" than the rest of the world...
    I would tag onto that that most Americans live under the delusion that everything America has came from America and its own hard work, and none of the things that enable the nice way Americans live comes from arming military regimes or propping up dictators to keep natural resources flowing. The big time denial about that continues to be the reason that many people just write off everyone who has foreign policy problems with us as "evil" and "hating freedom."
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; November 26th, 2012 at 11:33 AM.

  12. #12
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by r0ckst4r View Post
    I love the way Americans don't think and just want to do.... Afghan is one of the largest producers of heroin in the world, mostly run by terrorists.... If you leave afghan, and they can increase production, make more money, buy and train more terrorist. Which country do you think will be on top of their wish list to attack?


    So throw your tantrums, but you will be the ones complaining when you are attacked. Sad thing is, this war will go on for decades because it is a religious war to them. Most devout religious people will die for their religions. Situations change, one moment it looks like the afghan forces can control the country, and then they are the ones with taliban insurgents.
    This is absoloutely spot on. The US needs to remain in Afghanistan until Afghanistan can get those oil pipelines online that would certainly replace opiate production. Republicans are complaining? They started this whole war, and as far as GITMO that's something the republicans blockd from being closed.

    And as far as Iraq, the US wanted out of that failed republican venture as fast as possible. It explains all the arms sales to the Iraqi government right now.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    The odd thing about all of that 'meddling' is most of these terror countries cause the majority of the poverty and utter disgust with life felt by their own people. It is at the hands of their own despotic regimes who thrive off of our oil money but share little to nothing with the people that most of the inequity occurs. Then as has been the course throughout history ignorance and blind faith allow people who are then quite easy to convince that for their God they should kill Americans or other westerners to go out and die for their leaders beliefs. It really is quite comical if not for the tragic death and crippling poverty... that is when you step back and look at it.
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    This is absoloutely spot on. The US needs to remain in Afghanistan until Afghanistan can get those oil pipelines online that would certainly replace opiate production. Republicans are complaining? They started this whole war, and as far as GITMO that's something the republicans blockd from being closed.

    And as far as Iraq, the US wanted out of that failed republican venture as fast as possible. It explains all the arms sales to the Iraqi government right now.
    Actually no one wanted out of Iraq for the long term. Just Combat operations... we wanted a strategic squeeze on either side of Iran.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  15. #15
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The odd thing about all of that 'meddling' is most of these terror countries cause the majority of the poverty and utter disgust with life felt by their own people. It is at the hands of their own despotic regimes who thrive off of our oil money but share little to nothing with the people that most of the inequity occurs. Then as has been the course throughout history ignorance and blind faith allow people who are then quite easy to convince that for their God they should kill Americans or other westerners to go out and die for their leaders beliefs. It really is quite comical if not for the tragic death and crippling poverty... that is when you step back and look at it.
    Kinda like Pakistan (though they don't have oil)... but their leadership is more utterly incompetent rather than outright despotic. We were giving billions to those guys. And Bush was a close friend of Musharraf for years. I really don't know why republicans are complaining right now.

  16. #16

    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    GTMO was blocked from being closed by the republicans in the House and Senate so that the uninformed could claim that was a promise Obama did not keep. Of course there is criticism on GTMO. The same military tribunals that were not acceptable under Bush to democratic fundies was then offered as the solution by the same democratic fundies. So it is quite understandable that republicans should fight back. Regardless to either side that untried imprisoned terrorist were suffering due to their indecision. Of course, not many people give two flying fucks about terrorist so there ya go.

    As far as the concept of not having a SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) with Afghanistan for our folks on the ground to be under the judicial authority of the United States only. And to think they would fall under Afghanistan justice system and we would stay is utter non-sense. We lost 4000 lives and countless treasure and yet walked away from Iraq with no SOFA. The only country we have an agreement with them on what cases are to be tried (Rape, murder) when they occur is with Japan. That is a negotiation with an established rule of law country who investigative techniques and burden of proof rival our own justice system. It will be given to no other country. So please take your hysterics elsewhere.

    Finally, was there any human being on planet earth that was under the misconstrued idea that we would spend trillions fighting a war in a strategic country in the Middle east to walk away? No presence? ANyone human who thought that must be the most ignorant moron that has EVER walked planet earth.
    We walked away from Iraq ... you're calling Obama "the most irgnorant moron that has EVER walked planet earth". Interesting turn on your part.

  17. #17

    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    wouldn't really be a surprise... for all the proclamations of "omg, Obama got us out of Iraq," the President actually wanted to leave thousands of troops in the country.

    the only reason why we still don't have boots on the ground isn't because of some commitment to ending the war, it's because the Iraqi government kicked us out.
    Loki -- Obama didn't talk with the PM of Iraqi for months -- causing bad feelings between the two. The Administration gave up on keeping a presence - they had the opportunity but blew it.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Allow me to spell it out for you Jack since apparently I did not spell it out at the right level of comprehension...

    IF we wasted four thousand lives and countless treasure in IRAQ and walked because of NO SOFA then have no fucking doubt we will do so in Afghanistan. Anyone who would suggest otherwise is a complete fucking idiot and has no sense of how we operate in other countries.

    There is that clear enough so you can get it?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  19. #19
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Loki -- Obama didn't talk with the PM of Iraqi for months -- causing bad feelings between the two. The Administration gave up on keeping a presence - they had the opportunity but blew it.
    I didn't realize Obama had to have every leader on speed dial. Bad feelings? Is that so? Care to prove evidence for that? And what was this about Maliki saying that US arms are vital for his country's security and that he recently cancelled (or perhaps rethought according to other reports) a Russian arms deal?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20278774

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Personally, I actually like the idea of drone wars. Hands off. The ultimate method in making the other guy die for his cause while you stay safe and sound.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Loki -- Obama didn't talk with the PM of Iraqi for months -- causing bad feelings between the two. The Administration gave up on keeping a presence - they had the opportunity but blew it.
    Would you like to provide some sort of proof besides Jack's secret southern missouri super computer? Iraq was balking a SOFA when Bush made it a condition... hence why a SOFA and agreement on forces wasnt reached while Bush was in office when the withdrawal was reached.
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    First the Ambassador and then the troops... what is it with Republicans always trying ot make points politically off the blood of actual patriotic Americans?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    The number of troops that stay won't be known until the day they leave in 2014. We all know how this works.
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic345672_2.gif

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  24. #24

    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Would you like to provide some sort of proof besides Jack's secret southern missouri super computer? Iraq was balking a SOFA when Bush made it a condition... hence why a SOFA and agreement on forces wasnt reached while Bush was in office when the withdrawal was reached.
    So now it was Bush how ended the war in Iraq? Seems you and Obama himself gave that credit to Obama.

  25. #25

    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    First the Ambassador and then the troops... what is it with Republicans always trying ot make points politically off the blood of actual patriotic Americans?
    Truth is if anyone other other President than Obama had made this commitment to keep troops in Afghanistan - you'll have your panties in a wad right now.

    Future proof that in your mind and others -- Obama can do nothing but good.

    ... since no comment, I assume you'll all for putting troops under the supervision of the prime minister.

  26. #26
    loki81
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Would you like to provide some sort of proof besides Jack's secret southern missouri super computer? Iraq was balking a SOFA when Bush made it a condition... hence why a SOFA and agreement on forces wasnt reached while Bush was in office when the withdrawal was reached.
    the Obama admin was talking about leaving thousands of soldiers in Iraq... the only reason those troops aren't there now is because the Iraqi government wouldn't agree to our requests for immunity.

    at the end of the day, I'm glad we pulled out, but I think it's a mistake to credit that pullout to President Obama when it happened in spite of his desires, not because of them... which is why it wouldn't surprise me if that same President does intend to leave a sizable combat force in Afghanistan.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    So now it was Bush how ended the war in Iraq? Seems you and Obama himself gave that credit to Obama.
    I think you're having trouble making up your mind as to which result you should support based off confusion of which party supports which result. As there's little here to imply any consistency in what your viewpoint is.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    the Obama admin was talking about leaving thousands of soldiers in Iraq... the only reason those troops aren't there now is because the Iraqi government wouldn't agree to our requests for immunity.

    at the end of the day, I'm glad we pulled out, but I think it's a mistake to credit that pullout to President Obama when it happened in spite of his desires, not because of them... which is why it wouldn't surprise me if that same President does intend to leave a sizable combat force in Afghanistan.
    Request for immunity is called a SOFA. I understand and what your saying is exactly what i have been saying. Although after trillions and thousands of lives i would have preferred we stay and be an enduring influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    So now it was Bush how ended the war in Iraq? Seems you and Obama himself gave that credit to Obama.
    @jack you probably forget although you were here cheering me on at that point - I supported Bush in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. Weird how your partisan look for any bullshit angle to attack crap doesn't play at my table.

    Afghanistan we should stay in as well .. in fact during the McCain campaign I was one of the only people defending his statement that we should be there in fifty years. He was right and so am I. If one of those two countries evolves into the type of strong democratic nations that Japan and Germany did after our fifty year occupation of their countries then it will be a success.

    The folks in the two most recent countries have far greater history behind them but unfortunately far less civilization and honor so I doubt it will occur.

    All of that aside if the Afghanistan people want to try Americans in tribal regions with the judicial system akin to the Salem witch trials then we should walk away. Actually as I said earlier I am very much to the point where we can monitor these folks from afar and use drones to remove threats. I could care less whatever their feelings are about it and my desire to help them become a civilized nation is even lower. Oh and you all can go ahead and credit the drone technology to the two wars and treasure invested in them.....
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    ^ Remember though that Germany and Japan were national governments that signed peace agreements with us. It's a lot harder to blacksmith out a modern first world secular democracy when you're fighting diverse militant tribes and religious sects who were only united in the first place because European colonial powers arbitrarily drew a map around them.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Oh believe me I get the million different dynamics... it is just amazing to me that the republican party is so devoid of thought and bereft of ideas for the future that they can only attack using empty and easily seen through arguments that typically rest upon the blood of those who were brave enough to give it... whereas your average republican isnt brave enough to show up at the polls. Perhaps it is just my viewpoint here in jub land but the conservative voices seem increasingly empty and cowardly.
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  31. #31
    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Personally, I actually like the idea of drone wars. Hands off. The ultimate method in making the other guy die for his cause while you stay safe and sound.
    The problem with drone wars is that they are a quick fix short term solution which makes things worse down the road.

    The US is making more terrorists than it's killing or capturing. Hatred against the US has increased a lot since 2001.

    9/11 was a good opportunity to change the foreign policy and spend all that money on internal security rather than going to war. The actual attack wasn't the main thing. It was a part of a plan by Bin Laden to trick the US into multiple wars and make it bankrupt. So far it's working pretty well.

    For long term solution the US needs to back out of the middle east and become neutral on the Israel-Palestine conflict. It will have mild positive effects right away and long term effects will be much greater when you have a generation growing up without US bombs dropping on them.
    Last edited by Laufey; November 26th, 2012 at 12:45 PM.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    I'm definitely the choir about the Reps not having any good ideas. Throughout most of Bush's two terms as far as I could tell, your rank and file Republican was fine with the idea of glassing the Middle East and being done with it. That's some visionary thinking.

  33. #33
    loki81
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I'm definitely the choir about the Reps not having any good ideas. Throughout most of Bush's two terms as far as I could tell, your rank and file Republican was fine with the idea of glassing the Middle East and being done with it. That's some visionary thinking.
    if Republicans just wanted to "glass" the Middle East, we wouldn't have a lot of the problems we're bogged down with now.

    blowing things up is easy and our army is pretty great at it... it's the insistence on nation-building that got us into trouble.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Geiri85 View Post
    The problem with drone wars is that they are a quick fix short term solution which makes things worse down the road.

    The US is making more terrorists than it's killing or capturing. Hatred against the US has increased a lot since 2001.

    9/11 was a good opportunity to change the foreign policy and spend all that money on internal security rather than going to war. The actual attack wasn't the main thing. It was a part of a plan by Bin Laden to trick the US into multiple wars and make it bankrupt. So far it's working pretty well.

    For long term solution the US needs to back out of the middle east and become neutral on the Israel-Palestine conflict. It will have mild positive effects right away and long term effects will be much greater when you have a generation growing up without US bombs dropping on them.
    That will never happen. Our Navy's almost singular missive is a free and open sea lanes. That means having a navy that can project and imposing your desires worldwide... when the US stops intervening around the world then look for the next super power to fill the vacuum. It has been that way since the Phoenicians and it will be so until the world changes ... possibly after a collapse due to global catastrophes... who knows... but it isn't about to change in you or my lifetime. Looking inward doesn't work.
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    if Republicans just wanted to "glass" the Middle East, we wouldn't have a lot of the problems we're bogged down with now.

    blowing things up is easy and our army is pretty great at it... it's the insistence on nation-building that got us into trouble.
    I agree with Jayhawk that nationbuilding PER SE is not the problem. It's the fact that the Bush Admin actually sold the idea (whether or not they actually believed it themselves is anyone's guess, though they were so uninformed on SO many things I tend to think they really believed their own rhetoric) that we were going to be greeted as liberators. Bush didn't even know that there were two sects of Islam that were hostile to each other on the eve of invading Iraq and had to be brought up to speed.

    As Jayhawk pointed out Germany and Japan are great examples of successful nationbuilding. Going in blind and ignorant with absolutely no regard whatsoever for the details of the situation or the history of the nation in question is just asking for what we got, though. A wreck. Of course we also made it difficult to sell the idea of going in and actually working with the factions and being pragmatic about working out a viable structure after we broadbrushed virtually everyone in these countries as terrorists who wanted to destroy us-- the occupation of Japan was a pretty good example (at least for the most part) in going in with an open ear towards doing what worked and not not necessarily railroading over what worked in favor of sticking to the ideological game plan. The decision to keep the emperor as a symbolic figurehead and not pursue war crimes charges against him because of the stability it brought to the occupation, as one example. Could you see anyone involved with the Bush Admin even CONSIDERING this kind of a move for a pragmatic Taliban leader willing to come to the table, or an important imam of a militant sect? Hell no. We put all their faces on trading cards and encouraged troops to go shoot them.

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    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    That will never happen. Our Navy's almost singular missive is a free and open sea lanes. That means having a navy that can project and imposing your desires worldwide... when the US stops intervening around the world then look for the next super power to fill the vacuum. It has been that way since the Phoenicians and it will be so until the world changes ... possibly after a collapse due to global catastrophes... who knows... but it isn't about to change in you or my lifetime. Looking inward doesn't work.
    Well I never thought it ever would... I'm just saying I personally think it would have been a better move.

    I won't live to see this behavior change but I will probably live to see the US fall and not be the worlds superpower anymore.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    The US isn't falling anytime soon.
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic345672_2.gif

    We're gonna sit down and have ourselves a drink! And after we're done - after *I'm* done, you can run upstairs and take whichever one of them little pills makes you feel the best~Dolores Claiborne

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    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Maybe not soon but in the coming decades I think it's likely.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    I guess that all depends on your definition of super power. If the US is a superpower because of it's military and wealth, then it will take longer than that. Is it possible?

    Sure. Anything is possible, but probable leads us in a different direction. I tend to think that it will change, and hopefully the world will grow out of needing a super power. Until then, I tend to think that things will change the same until someone becomes more wealthy and more militarily powerful.
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic345672_2.gif

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    It will probably develop into there being 3-5 big towers rather than just one.

    The US might be the last empire to have that status alone.

    I should have phrased it differently thought. The US will continue being a superpower. What I wanted to say is that it won't stay in the #1 spot all of this century.
    Last edited by Laufey; November 26th, 2012 at 02:05 PM.

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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    I doubt that as well... let me ask you this geiri... you have six point seven gagillion dollars.... besides some diversity when you look at China, the EU and the US ...then were do you pout your money if you want it to grow...

    I honestly think people allow reason to become deluded when they think of the idea of the US falling...
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    I think someone needs to define "fail." If the US went into economic and social free fall, we'd take Europe right along with us. A decline in influence is another matter entirely.

    I wouldn't mind seeing the US in some kind of equal partnership with Western Europe/Canada/Australia all doing (and paying) for a common hopefully more begin foreign policy.

    But an unholy detente with say china would be very very bad.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  43. #43
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    If the US went into economic and social free fall... most of the world would fall with it. It would be another depression. It would be all over the world. China's economy would collapse too. A decline in influence? Fine by me. Maybe it's about time power is kept in check. I don't think the US will weaken and will remain a very strong nation for decades to come... but I also think it will shift and share responsibility with other growing partners... but why dismiss entire countries? The US needs to learn how to share power and work with other countries to make this world a better place... call me idealistic but the US has to stop thinking they can do everything alone.

    Improving economic situations in other parts of the world will be beneficial. Growing regional powers like India and Brazil (whose economy is rebounding after a slight lull in growth) ought to be partners and not adversaries.

    http://www.sacbee.com/2012/11/26/501...rtunities.html - Brazil has the potential to be a major power... at least regionally, and globally at an economic level.

    It shouldn't be the "us versus them" attitude. That's a cold war attitude that needs to be ended.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    If the US went into economic and social free fall... most of the world would fall with it. It would be another depression. It would be all over the world. China's economy would collapse too. A decline in influence? Fine by me. Maybe it's about time power is kept in check. I don't think the US will weaken and will remain a very strong nation for decades to come... but I also think it will shift and share responsibility with other growing partners... but why dismiss entire countries? The US needs to learn how to share power and work with other countries to make this world a better place... call me idealistic but the US has to stop thinking they can do everything alone.

    Improving economic situations in other parts of the world will be beneficial. Growing regional powers like India and Brazil (whose economy is rebounding after a slight lull in growth) ought to be partners and not adversaries.

    http://www.sacbee.com/2012/11/26/501...rtunities.html - Brazil has the potential to be a major power... at least regionally, and globally at an economic level.

    It shouldn't be the "us versus them" attitude. That's a cold war attitude that needs to be ended.
    Very astute. Our current focus for Sea Power 21 is to involve as many of these countries as possible in a collaborative force with the same goals... that aligns a lot more than simply naval powers... in 2010 I traveled around South America and we stopped at each valuable Allie and played war games and allowed their senior defense officials a few insider looks to stimulate military sales.

    We have of course been close Allies with India for decades.

    Our NATO allies have played war games with us for years... so they are already in the same movement and scheme.... think of Turkey asking for missile defenses that the US provides Israel. Poland asked for the same thing and Russia pissed itself....


    The point being is our military might is excellent but we cannot be the worlds cops... influence and mutual security provide a blanket with much more than simple military might.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  45. #45
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Very astute. Our current focus for Sea Power 21 is to involve as many of these countries as possible in a collaborative force with the same goals... that aligns a lot more than simply naval powers... in 2010 I traveled around South America and we stopped at each valuable Allie and played war games and allowed their senior defense officials a few insider looks to stimulate military sales.
    Oh absolutely. And here is a key example of a step in a defensive cooperation with South america's biggest military and economic power...

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/04/140059.htm

    This was an agreement done about two years ago to solidify ties. Brazil while having a leftist government was seen as more pragmatic and as a balancing to the unstable neighbor to the North.

    We have of course been close Allies with India for decades.
    Yeah especially after relations with Pakistan got chilly. The USSR used to be more aligned with India prior to the 1990s... hence why most of India's massive military is Russian equipped, but now economic and some military ties are being estabilshed.

    The point being is our military might is excellent but we cannot be the worlds cops... influence and mutual security provide a blanket with much more than simple military might.
    Exactly. And trying to be a world cop could bankrupt and stretch thin resources. America shouldn't be isolationist, but rather moving to have multilateral exercises in the world. Best to be a partner rather than a bully.

  46. #46

    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Geiri85 View Post
    The problem with drone wars is that they are a quick fix short term solution which makes things worse down the road.

    The US is making more terrorists than it's killing or capturing. Hatred against the US has increased a lot since 2001.

    9/11 was a good opportunity to change the foreign policy and spend all that money on internal security rather than going to war. The actual attack wasn't the main thing. It was a part of a plan by Bin Laden to trick the US into multiple wars and make it bankrupt. So far it's working pretty well.

    For long term solution the US needs to back out of the middle east and become neutral on the Israel-Palestine conflict. It will have mild positive effects right away and long term effects will be much greater when you have a generation growing up without US bombs dropping on them.
    Drone wars are an awful way to fight wars -- it makes it so impersonal. Driving home from the office at 5p to mow the lawn after dropping bombs from drones will extend wars longer than ever.

  47. #47
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Drone wars are an awful way to fight wars -- it makes it so impersonal. Driving home from the office at 5p to mow the lawn after dropping bombs from drones will extend wars longer than ever.
    Yea sending troops to inhospitable locations is the republican way to do it. Paul Ryan said itself in the debate against Biden... he would have advocated sending troops to different countries where ever.

  48. #48
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    Can't feel as manly about drone kills is the subtext I get here.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post

    Drone wars are an awful way to fight wars -- it makes it so impersonal. Driving home from the office at 5p to mow the lawn after dropping bombs from drones will extend wars longer than ever.
    Yeah, we should totally NOT use the thing that allows us to not lose the lives of our soldiers. To keep it personal, yunno.

    News flash, Jack - the people ordering the attacks aren't any more involved when they send real troops.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Banned chance1's Avatar
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    Re: Obama Backs Out on Promise: Troops to Stay in Afghanistan After 2014

    another thread where GWB is getting whacked ....... got a 4 year extension i guess on the blame bush mantra

    for one i'd hate to be one of those 10,000
    training afghans? they don't want to be trained and we can't trust them
    karzai will set rules? another guy you can't trust who happens to be in charge of the country

    anyone left has a target on their back

    in this case i think drones is the only way - it's not ideal but the lack of support from afghanistan makes it necessary

    take them all out

    as for "americans are deluded and think this that or the other thing" ........ by the impish one and his new anti american sidekick

    it has no place in this thread - no one wrote anything to put it in context


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