JustUsBoys.com gay porn forum

logo

remove these banner ads by becoming a JUB Supporter.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 70
  1. #1
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,317
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Genesis 2:15-17 (King James Version)
    One of the benefits Christianity derives from the Genesis creation story is the straightforward explanation it provides for the origin of sin. In that story, the first humans that God created disobeyed his command to refrain from eating fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That act of disobedience constitutes the original sin and it follows that all their human descendents on Earth are therefore born into a condition of sin, by virtue of the consequence associated with the failure of their predecessors.

    It is predominant in Christian theology that all people are understood to be defective and in need of a transformation toward the perfection illustrated by that religion’s namesake.

    If the Biblical creation story is accepted as some form of mystical symbolism, rather than a literal account; to what extent, if any, does the embrace of the theory of evolution challenge the Christian principle that mankind is born into a condition of sin?

    If the process of evolution is embraced, but understood to have taken place under God’s guidance, does this in any way advocate the likelihood that early mankind may not have been afforded a fair distinction when making his choice between obedience to God or an arguably less perfect alternative?



    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Romans 5:12-21 (King James Version)

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 (King James Version)

  2. #2

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Evolution does not preclude the historical existence of an Adam and an Eve. DNA testing suggests that all humans are descended from a single female who lived 400,000 years ago or so. Obviously she had a mate.
    Personally i am not religious and do not accept original sin.

  3. #3
    JUB Addict FirmaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    1,062

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    I see no reason to contemplate the implications and ramifications of scientific fact with regards to the genesis account, original sin, or any other story in a book written 2000 years ago by a primitive culture that had neither the knowledge, resources, or understanding of the nature of reality we have now. You might as well ask how people feel about the consideration that lightning is caused by the interaction of charged particles and what that means for the belief of Zeus throwing spears of light onto the earth. Both questions are equally futile. The only difference is, most people can recognize that the Zeus story is a mere myth.

  4. #4
    JUB Addict
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    2,506

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Evolution does not preclude the historical existence of an Adam and an Eve. DNA testing suggests that all humans are descended from a single female who lived 400,000 years ago or so. Obviously she had a mate.
    Personally i am not religious and do not accept original sin.
    Could you please provide more information (such as a book title or a link) that talks more about this? I had always heard that it was a single MALE who lived 400,000 years ago; and that we have this knowledge because of the mutations of the Y chromosome.

    As to the thread topic, I think it's silly to try to attempt to find scientific truths in religious myths, accepting or not accepting any specific details.

  5. #5
    JUB Addict FirmaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    1,062

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacquemar View Post
    Could you please provide more information (such as a book title or a link) that talks more about this? I had always heard that it was a single MALE who lived 400,000 years ago; and that we have this knowledge because of the mutations of the Y chromosome.

    As to the thread topic, I think it's silly to try to attempt to find scientific truths in religious myths, accepting or not accepting any specific details.
    He is most likely referencing what has been dubbed "mitochondrial Eve" (the name is an allusion to a biblical figure, not implying such a being IS that biblical figure).

    Here is a quick summary from talkorigins.org (one of the best quick-reference websites to put aside all doubt in the scientific knowledge about the origins of both the universe and the diversity of life on Earth):

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mitoeve.html

    I specifically like this point from the article:

    ME [mitochondrial Eve] lived with many other humans (men and women); she was certainly not alone. When she was alive, she was most certainly NOT the Mitochondrial Eve. The title at that time was held by a distant ancestor of hers (and of the many humans who were her contemporaries).
    Last edited by FirmaFan; November 25th, 2012 at 05:30 PM.

  6. #6
    JUB Addict
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    2,506

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Oh wow! Thanks for this article; it is most fascinating!

  7. #7
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    If the Biblical creation story is accepted as some form of mystical symbolism, rather than a literal account; to what extent, if any, does the embrace of the theory of evolution challenge the Christian principle that mankind is born into a condition of sin?
    I suspect you may be uncomfortable symbolically reflecting on the creation story. ?

    If the creation story is accepted as symbolic rather than a literal account, what reason should there be for the theory of evolution to challenge the Christian notion of our sinful nature? Does the theory of evolution challenge our symbolic notions?

  8. #8
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,317
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Evolution does not preclude the historical existence of an Adam and an Eve. DNA testing suggests that all humans are descended from a single female who lived 400,000 years ago or so. Obviously she had a mate.
    I’m guessing she probably would have had several mates that may or may not have sponsored any personal interest or association with her outside the actual mating process. It is generally regarded that Homo sapiens sapiens didn’t appear that early, so perhaps this female was Homo sapiens neandertalensis or maybe she would be better classified as some other variation of the hominids from the same general era. In any event, the idea that contemporary humans all descended from a single female from that time period is probably unreasonable.

    … it is safe to say that no single family could possibly have been responsible for all the present day nuclear gene variety in only 200,000 years, or even 2,000,000 years.

    The Eve Controversy (evolution of human females’ mitochondria)


    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    I see no reason to contemplate the implications and ramifications of scientific fact with regards to the genesis account, original sin, or any other story in a book written 2000 years ago by a primitive culture that had neither the knowledge, resources, or understanding of the nature of reality we have now.
    You are missing the point of the thread. Without “original sin,” the need for a savior is at least conceivably called into question.


    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    I suspect you may be uncomfortable symbolically reflecting on the creation story. ?
    I am just an ordinary mortal man. My personal comfort, or lack thereof, is not germane to the question. From my perspective, this discussion is merely an academic exercise.


    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    If the creation story is accepted as symbolic rather than a literal account, what reason should there be for the theory of evolution to challenge the Christian notion of our sinful nature? Does the theory of evolution challenge our symbolic notions?
    I must say that you are getting closer to the challenge than any of the other responses, thus far.

    If mankind evolved from a much less sophisticated organism, then at what point during that process of development would you expect the individual specimens to become responsible for their own behavior?

  9. #9
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    If mankind evolved from a much less sophisticated organism, then at what point during that process of development would you expect the individual specimens to become responsible for their own behavior?
    I see sponges as being responsible for sponge behavior, and dogs as being responsible for dog behavior.

    Humans are responsible for human behavior, and have a symbol-making capacity to aid them in that endeavor.

  10. #10
    JUB Addict FirmaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    1,062

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    You are missing the point of the thread. Without “original sin,” the need for a savior is at least conceivably called into question.
    Absolutely. When a major plot point for a book that is thought by some to be absolutely true is shown to be incorrect, the related plot points become just as suspect. In the case of a savior, there is no contemporary extra-biblical evidence that shows Jesus even existed at all.

    If mankind evolved from a much less sophisticated organism, then at what point during that process of development would you expect the individual specimens to become responsible for their own behavior?
    "Responsibility" is kind of ambiguous. Are you talking about an organism's awareness of the consequences of their actions? Social species have a much greater association between actions and consequences than those species that do not construct any sort of social structure. If you were the only individual left on earth, the actions you would associate with being held "responsible" for would only be those actions which puts yourself at risk. But, living in a social construct, a far greater number actions carry with them an accountability, and a responsibility to be aware of those actions which have consequences. We see such behaviors arise in many many different species, from humans that punish murderers to wolves that banish males who try to mate with the alpha female without first challenging the alpha male, to insects such as bees or ants that show ordered hierarchy and even what could be construed as a primitive chain-of-command. Living in a social society, I definitely understand that my actions have consequences. However, there is one action for which I refuse to accept any sort of consequence for, one action that the christian religion says I must atone for, lest I be sent straight to hell, for which the only cure is christianity, and that is the action of simply being a human being. I am not a carrier of original sin, I am not responsible to atone for having been born, I am not a descendent of a single man and woman whose crimes are carried by all of humanity, I refuse to even accept a "symbolic notion of my sinful nature" (as zoltanspawn has suggested we can still do in light of evolution), and I know this because science, reason, and evidence show such teachings to be completely false, and I see no point beyond simple mental boredom to attempt to discern how the science and evidence affects the plot devices of a tale of obvious fiction.

  11. #11
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Middle of Snowwhere.
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married (to a man)
    Posts
    16,302
    Blog Entries
    2

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    One of the benefits Christianity derives from the Genesis creation story is the straightforward explanation it provides for the origin of sin. In that story, the first humans that God created disobeyed his command to refrain from eating fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That act of disobedience constitutes the original sin and it follows that all their human descendents on Earth are therefore born into a condition of sin, by virtue of the consequence associated with the failure of their predecessors.
    I actually find the Christian theory of sin to be the most incoherent unjust and unconvincing. It's one of the dead giveaways of the fakeness of the whole thing. First, there is no justice in expecting people to obey a command when they have been deliberately deprived of the knowledge of what constitutes right or wrong.

    Second, it does not follow that descendants are thus born sinful. It would at the very least be unethical to not offer them the same choice.

    Thirdly it is a poor choice to ask someone to accept blissful ignorance as though knowledge itself were somehow sinful.

    Fourth, if we discard this as a literal account of events, can it in any way be said to be an allegorical fable with some noble intent? No; there isn't even really a message of justice, never mind divinity.

    Fifth, does it seem more likely to be a story concocted to keep ignorant people in awe of authority and to prolong their ignorance for the sake of the author's commonplace worldly interests? Yup.

    That's before we even hit evolution.
    Last edited by bankside; November 26th, 2012 at 09:46 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  12. #12
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Original Sin isn't my symbol of choice, but I can think of it as a characterization of our limited, frustrating, painful, imperfect state: death, aging and sickness are the shadows of our lives, and we are prone to a variety of vices and harmful behaviors.

    I would be interested to know more about how Opinterph conceives of sin. Then I might see if evolution, or scientific fact, challenges that notion.

  13. #13
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Like some others who frequent RS&P, I tend to champion the metaphorical. I see value in religion.

    I think science and reason will (mostly) provide us with a decent account of the facts and I despise religious literalism.

    However, I also think there's a real truth that religious metaphors are most powerful and transformative when encountered as though they are factually true.

    This creates a conundrum obviously, as many religious expressions are in conflict with our reasonable scientific knowledge.

    Would it be helpful to introduce the notion of ritual space/ritual time? That is, a place or period in which religious metaphors are contemplated as though they were facts, and upon exit, may be understood as powerful symbols? (Or of course for the strident materialist, as trite fictions.)

    Can religious people accept that the strength and power of their religious practice often isn't literally true?

    Can non-religious people accept that there ought to be a place and time for rigorous contemplation of sacred symbols?

  14. #14
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Middle of Snowwhere.
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married (to a man)
    Posts
    16,302
    Blog Entries
    2

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    A lot of the conflict goes away if we distinguish between the true and the insightful, reserving the former for the factual and the literal, and the latter for the valuable products of contemplation in metaphor and symbol.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  15. #15
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    A lot of the conflict goes away if we distinguish between the true and the insightful, reserving the former for the factual and the literal, and the latter for the valuable products of contemplation in metaphor and symbol.
    Yes. Absolutely.

  16. #16
    Sex God Mariatenebre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Gender
    Transexual Female
    Orientation
    Straight
    Posts
    941

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Evolution does not preclude the historical existence of an Adam and an Eve. DNA testing suggests that all humans are descended from a single female who lived 400,000 years ago or so. Obviously she had a mate.
    Personally i am not religious and do not accept original sin.
    First of all the Mitochondrial Eve was not the Biblical Eve. She was not the only woman of the era or even the most fertile. It is just her genes that were the ones that survived in all humans. In fact there was a Y Chromosomal Adam but he came long after the Mitochondrial Eve.

    As for the Original Sin I totally reject this concept. It is the idea that all men are guilty and cursed for the actions of two people. In essence it is inherited guilt. Man is not by his nature driven towards evil.

    Further more I have always said that in reality it would be immoral for Yahweh to punish Adam and Eve because before eating the fruit they did not know the difference between good or evil and only creatures that can know this difference can be punished for doing evil. Otherwise they are merely some infantile creature or insane.

  17. #17
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,317
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    I see sponges as being responsible for sponge behavior, and dogs as being responsible for dog behavior.

    Humans are responsible for human behavior, and have a symbol-making capacity to aid them in that endeavor.
    Homo sapiens neandertalensis means “wise man from Neander Valley.” (The location indicates the place where evidence of his remains was first discovered.) Though some paleontologists prefer to consider neandertal a separate species, there is genetic evidence to suggest that limited interbreeding occurred between neandertal and what eventually became the sole survivor of the Homos; Homo sapiens sapiens – the “double-wise man” – or what we more commonly refer to as “you and me,” so to speak.

    And though we can talk about sponges or dogs, mankind’s secret to survival (and eventual domination of the planet) is primarily a result of his intellect. He was able to use his ingenuity to overcome relative deficiencies in his physical stature to survive, compete, and sometimes flourish.

    Along the way man-creatures learned to use sounds, gestures, and drawings [symbol-making capacity] to communicate concepts with other man-creatures and that, in turn, led to the accumulation and sharing of knowledge. It is perhaps reasonable to speculate that at some point in time this man-creature communication became sophisticated enough to characterize different things as “good” or “bad.” For example, it might be communicated to others in the tribe that it is bad to walk through an open field when a saber-toothed cat is present. Or it might be communicated that collecting and eating a certain fruit is good. Fast-forward and we would expect the ability to communicate to improve, along with the collection of previously learned things. Some groups were probably more successful than others and many groups probably perished as a result of things they couldn’t anticipate or control.

    I think it’s fair to say that conditions millennia ago were menacing and uncertain. It might be reasonable to identify a successful creature as one that lived long enough to produce offspring. Perhaps even the best life of that era was brief and filled with danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    If mankind evolved from a much less sophisticated organism, then at what point during that process of development would you expect the individual specimens to become responsible for their own behavior?
    "Responsibility" is kind of ambiguous.
    You are correct. Responsibility is not the correct word. It is vague and fails to properly convey my intention. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    However, there is one action for which I refuse to accept any sort of consequence for, one action that the christian religion says I must atone for, lest I be sent straight to hell, for which the only cure is christianity, and that is the action of simply being a human being.
    You make an important point. A sponge does what a sponge does because it is a sponge. Similarly a human does what it does because of its innate capacity to do things, which is reasonably perceived to be a result of the way it has developed. I think it will prove helpful to dismiss the “problem” of guilt (sin) for a moment and see if we can agree that there is a relevance associated with man’s capacity to distinguish between things (including actions) that are good or bad. In other words, is the identification of “bad” the same for everyone? And if not, should it be?

    So if we insist upon accepting evolution as the explanation for the emergence of mankind from some earlier form AND (for purposes of this discussion) we also stipulate that God directed and controlled the process of evolution, I think it is incumbent to ponder the point at which man was expected to distinguish between good and bad evil. In other words, at what point in his development did man eat from the proverbial tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Is that the moment he became a man, or was he already a man long before he ever took notice of the tree?

  18. #18
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    I can't accept the premise that humans are uniquely gifted/burdened with the capacity to distinguish good and bad. Other species practice their own kinds of ethics. When humans first appeared, at that very instant, they already had within them some notion of right and wrong. We inherited a sense of morality as other species do, from the biological tree of life.

    In the course of history, it has mutated, devolved and even been refined.

  19. #19
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,317
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    I can't accept the premise that humans are uniquely gifted/burdened with the capacity to distinguish good and bad.
    Do you think humankind is characterized by a unique instinct?

  20. #20
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Do you think humankind is characterized by a unique instinct?
    No. I think our instincts are similar to those of other species. We are burdened by selfish competition, and we are graced by self-sacrifice for the good of others.

    Do you think humankind is characterized by a unique instinct?

  21. #21
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,317
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    Do you think humankind is characterized by a unique instinct?
    I think we are far enough removed from the primordial soup to rise above instincts.

    Perhaps I am unduly optimistic?

  22. #22
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Middle of Snowwhere.
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married (to a man)
    Posts
    16,302
    Blog Entries
    2

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    I think the meaning of the word "instinct" is shifting from one end of this conversation to the other and that makes it rather difficult to address.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  23. #23
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,317
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I think the meaning of the word "instinct" is shifting from one end of this conversation to the other and that makes it rather difficult to address.
    The term has been used thus far without specific definition. Provide us one.

  24. #24
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Middle of Snowwhere.
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married (to a man)
    Posts
    16,302
    Blog Entries
    2

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    In post 19, I understand you to mean "human instinct" as in "human attribute" or "animus particular to humans" or even "esprit humain."

    The meaning seems to have shifted in post 21 to mean "unthinking or autonomic response."
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  25. #25
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,317
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Do you think humankind is characterized by a unique instinct?
    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    In post 19, I understand you to mean "human instinct" as in "human attribute" or "animus particular to humans" or even "esprit humain."

    The meaning seems to have shifted in post 21 to mean "unthinking or autonomic response."
    Your reprimand is appropriate.

    Perhaps the operative word is “unique.”

    I think there are certain fundamental instincts that humans share with other non-human creatures. For example, almost all creatures have an innate tendency to take steps to ensure their own survival – particularly in situations involving immediate and obvious threats. And yet such a tendency to survive immediate threat is not unique.

    The question was intended to elicit evidence of natural instincts, or tendencies, attributed to humans that are not shared with other organisms.

  26. #26
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    An article like this one lends heft to your proposition.

    But really, the uniqueness of the human animal (our removal from the p. soup) has mostly been disputed.

    And there's even good evidence that other animals on the evolutionary tree also have notions of good and bad.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_wa...ve_morals.html

    Is there really a good argument somewhere that we are notably distinct from our animal siblings?

    I suspect that's not optimism, but wishful thinking.

    Nonetheless, in a ritual space most of these questions would be moot
    Last edited by zoltanspawn; November 27th, 2012 at 10:27 PM.

  27. #27
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,317
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    An article like this one lends heft to your proposition.

    Nonetheless, in a ritual space most of these questions would be moot
    Speaking of “heft,” that’s a lot to read. (I’ve thus far only visited the first link of your post.)

    I’m not entirely convinced that non-human call systems are innate. Sounds, yes. Confirmation that those sounds constitute “communication,” not so much. Interaction is a necessary component of communication – or at least the individual’s confirmation/validation of that process.

    Please define “ritual space.”

  28. #28
    JUB Addict FirmaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    1,062

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    The question was intended to elicit evidence of natural instincts, or tendencies, attributed to humans that are not shared with other organisms.
    Of all the things humans are capable of, the only behavior that I can think of that is entirely a human behavior that is not shared with any other organism is the practice of religious beliefs.

  29. #29
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    21,317
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    Of all the things humans are capable of, the only behavior that I can think of that is entirely a human behavior that is not shared with any other organism is the practice of religious beliefs.
    And what aspect(s) of being human accounts for that?

  30. #30
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Middle of Snowwhere.
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married (to a man)
    Posts
    16,302
    Blog Entries
    2

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    And what aspect(s) of being human accounts for that?
    I think it is an artefact of our pattern recognition skills. We impute meaning to ambiguity. If that helps us pick a predator out of the forested area at the edge of the savannah based on just a glimpse, then congratulations! your ancestor gets to live. If that helps us identify a crying infant in a noisy village, then congratulations…

    But it provides mental machinery for seeing things that aren't there, and seeing significance of some things as an inherent property when actually we're grafting it on.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  31. #31
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    Of all the things humans are capable of, the only behavior that I can think of that is entirely a human behavior that is not shared with any other organism is the practice of religious beliefs.
    As you are staunchly anti-religion, then this must make you staunchly anti-human, too?

    In any case, you are wrong. Animals also display "religious" attitudes, an element of which was most famously documented by one of my heroes, Skinner.


  32. #32
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Piraeus, Greece
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    11,140

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    My former partner - now living in Singapore, and a dedicated lurker on this forum - has begged me to contribute to this thread, only which I will do whilst also thanking Zoltanspawn, bankside and opinterph for their well considered opinions. I am back in Piraeus for a few days then return to my adopted island to resume my work thus, will restrict my contributions to this very fine thread.

    I believe that one should begin, at the beginning by defining what is sin as I understand sin.

    The Hebrew word for sin is hatt't which means "to miss the mark" - i.e. to fail to achieve a benchmark or hit a target set in terms of ones relationships with either God or other people. Linguistic studies reveal that the word has its roots in ancient political language where the same word is used to describe a rebellion of a vassal against an overlord. Given that The Decalogue appear to be structured according to the template of an ancient suzerainty treaty (a set of conditions imposed by an imperial nation upon its vassal states) this basic notion of sin is the closest the scriptures come to our notion of sin.

    The best example of this kind of sin is that of the Man and Women in The Garden who fail to live according to the request made by God regarding the tree that bore the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

    Another word, awon, suggests a further sinful condition where one is twisted or distorted by an unwillingness to live according to acceptable standards within ones relationships. The word is often translated as "guilt", but the concept is far richer than this. The condition is seen in terms of permanent damage done to ones psyche by regularly acting inappropriately towards others thus self destructive behaviour ensues.

    The constant failure to seek open and loving relationships perpetuates and increases one's self-centredness and selfishness. Evil begets evil; selfish choices ultimately lead to loneliness and self-hatred. Here the most obvious example is that of Cain whose hatred of his brother seethed within him leading to murder and exile.

    Still another term, peša', means outright rebellion against God and against others. It is primarily seen in terms of interpersonal relationships where it designates the violation of the rights of others. It is a sin that can be committed by both individuals (as in the traditional prophetic condemnation of the ill treatment of widows, orphans and strangers) or communally - as in Israel's failure to live according to the demands of the Covenant.

    The scriptures also speak of ma' al, which is understood as infidelity or the breaching of an obligation that was freely given. In that sense it is most closely related to the covenant contract, of which the Ten Commandments are the "fine print". But this form of sin is also seen more fundamentally as a folly; as living a lie or being a hypocrite; as acting falsely and abandoning living an honest life.

    Once upon a time we thought of alcoholics as sinful. Now we understand that the alcoholic may have both a genetic predisposition to addiction, and personal experiences may have forced certain actions upon him/her. Moreover, once "hooked" the alcoholic is no longer completely in control. Few of us would still consider the alcoholic to be engaged in committing a mortal sin. But what of other "sins"?

    Pertinent to us as gay men can we say that homosexual acts are sinful when we also recognise that being our self is natural and engages us in intimate loving relationships.? I know that we distinguish between homosexual acts and the person who is so inclined to those acts. But are the acts in themselves inherently sinful?

    The story of the Man and Woman in the Garden is a very ancient story that is meant to "explain" human suffering and limitation. It is not meant to be read literally - that God punished our first parents for their sin. Rather, this story "explains" that when relationships break down (i.e. relationships between The Creator and human life, men and women, humans and nature) things go awry. Humans try to be "like gods", men dominate women, humans misuse and destroy the earth; and, as a result, we have societies that are beset by crime, immorality, and man made disasters (like global warming).

    In this view, the doctrine of original sin retains a strong mythic quality that continues to speak to human inadequacy and limitation - inadequacies and limitations that can, if unchecked by recourse to God, lead to sin, depravity and tragedy. The concept of original sin evolved out of our shared experience of being limited humans as well as our shared experience of being totally dependent upon God for redemption and salvation from those limitations.

    The Ten Commandments are interesting in that only three of the laws pertain to how we relate to God, but seven teach us how to treat other people. Not by accident did Jesus say that Love of Neighbour is related to Love of God - that we cannot love God if we do not love our neighbour. This is a central tenet of the Judeo-Christian tradition that goes all the way back to those wonderful myths of the primal human in the Garden.

    That human nature is not perfect and consequently in need of a saviour it can be argued that when we acknowledge our very human flaws it permits us room to listen too, and embrace the advice of that voice speaking to us in our head to consider its invitation to follow its direction....which leads us to another topic....that of The Logos...and its influence upon our choices.

  33. #33
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Piraeus, Greece
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    11,140

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I think it is an artefact of our pattern recognition skills. We impute meaning to ambiguity. If that helps us pick a predator out of the forested area at the edge of the savannah based on just a glimpse, then congratulations! your ancestor gets to live. If that helps us identify a crying infant in a noisy village, then congratulations…

    But it provides mental machinery for seeing things that aren't there, and seeing significance of some things as an inherent property when actually we're grafting it on.
    The unknown factor may well be understood through our attempts to impute meaning that is drawn from our own life's experiences whilst also recognising that our interpretations are often founded upon the total human experience that has accumulated sufficient wisdom to enable such meanings to be treated with respect rather than discarded as fairy stories mined from those dark recesses hidden within our psyche masquerading as fear of that which we fail to fathom for want of not appearing to be schizophrenic.

  34. #34
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    I have this idea that we are fatally flawed. All of us. And I think this is exactly what we need to be perfect.

  35. #35
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Piraeus, Greece
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    11,140

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    So if we insist upon accepting evolution as the explanation for the emergence of mankind from some earlier form AND (for purposes of this discussion) we also stipulate that God directed and controlled the process of evolution, I think it is incumbent to ponder the point at which man was expected to distinguish between good and bad evil. In other words, at what point in his development did man eat from the proverbial tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Is that the moment he became a man, or was he already a man long before he ever took notice of the tree?
    Is the time factor relevant to the fact that homo sapiens can distinguish between destructive, self destructive actions and constructive behaviour - altruistic actions - that serve the common good and that human kind benefits when even one person, sacrifices something of their self serving ways for the benefit of the common good?

    So many believers still think of God analogically as the Judge who tallies up our good and bad deeds in a balance sheet that will commend or condemn us in the end. Consequently, we continue to view morality and ethics in juridical perspectives, speaking in very "black and white" expressions of "just punishments".

    We have lost the sense of what we mean by sin and, even more importantly, we have lost the notion of redemption. God is not seen as the forgiving lover, but rather many assume that the Church still teaches a God who is the formidable judge — and as a result that vision of God is roundly rejected by most people "outside" the Church (even by many of us "inside" as well).

    Our theology has changed, but we haven't been very successful in spreading the word about that change. The Church does have a wealth of wisdom in terms of the nature of the human condition, but it is still, in the popular imagination, tied to old worn-out literalistic readings of the scriptures.

    The story of the Man and Woman in the Garden is a remarkably rich story that tells of the primal, genderless "everyman" (ha adam) who is born of the earth (ha adama) and the breath or wind (ruarch) of God - an anthroplogy that says so much about our basic makeup torn between the earthy matter of day-to-day existence and the intangible spiritual quest for life's meaning.

    The earth creature is split into two sides (sela), which are then covered over to make man (ish) and woman (ishshah) (Gen 2:21-24). The man and woman are tempted to disobey God's commands and as a result all of their most important relationships are shattered.

    Their relationship with each other is skewed when the man gains dominion over the woman (naming her Eve) and establishes the patriarchal society (Gen 3:16).

    The relationship with the environment is changed as humans must now labour hard to make the earth bring forth its crops (Gen 3:17-19), while snakes, which represent all the wild beasts of creation, become a thing of fear (Gen 3:16).

    This is a profound story that speaks of the notion of sin as a breakdown in relationships. It stresses what is the quintessential hallmark of the Christian-Jewish tradition — morality, ethics and sin are all to do with relationships teaching us that our interpersonal relationships are the means by which each of us is able to grow into a happy, fulfilled person capable of developing the best that every human person has to offer all who enter our life.

  36. #36
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Piraeus, Greece
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    11,140

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I have this idea that we are fatally flawed. All of us. And I think this is exactly what we need to be perfect.

    All human beings are flawed, but not fatally so for human life has the means to save itself from its self destructive, and destructive behaviour by choosing to follow the path of The Saviour in whom we are bound until death of our natural self.

    You are correct to remind us that only by acknowledging our very evident imperfections can we ever hope to embrace the call of The Saviour to let Him lead us through our life.

  37. #37
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    All human beings are flawed, but not fatally so for human life has the means to save itself from its self destructive, and destructive behaviour by choosing to follow the path of The Saviour in whom we are bound until death of our natural self.

    You are correct to remind us that only by acknowledging our very evident imperfections can we ever hope to embrace the call of The Saviour to let Him lead us through our life.
    I personally believe that only love and learning can save us. Development of our personality, becoming a better and updated ourselves with every passing day. We will never reach perfection, but we can get infinitely close to it, and thus we will always have something to strive for.
    I believe this is a marvelous thing.

  38. #38
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Middle of Snowwhere.
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married (to a man)
    Posts
    16,302
    Blog Entries
    2

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    The unknown factor may well be understood through our attempts to impute meaning that is drawn from our own life's experiences whilst also recognising that our interpretations are often founded upon the total human experience that has accumulated sufficient wisdom to enable such meanings to be treated with respect rather than discarded as fairy stories mined from those dark recesses hidden within our psyche masquerading as fear of that which we fail to fathom for want of not appearing to be schizophrenic.
    Oh. I think the far corners of the mind can be illuminated by a love of fiction as well as truth. But to refer to fiction as truth - an example of metafiction I suppose - does both concepts a disservice in its convolutions.

    Hello by the way; and hello to The Lurking Singaporean. I trust winter at the equator is treating you kindly.
    Last edited by bankside; November 29th, 2012 at 07:28 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  39. #39
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Piraeus, Greece
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    11,140

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I personally believe that only love and learning can save us. Development of our personality, becoming a better and updated ourselves with every passing day. We will never reach perfection, but we can get infinitely close to it, and thus we will always have something to strive for.
    I believe this is a marvelous thing.
    I agree that the process of redeeming ourself is ongoing, and never finishes despite which our perfection is daily being honed through our efforts to better the person we were yesterday.

  40. #40
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Piraeus, Greece
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    11,140

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Oh. I think the far corners of the mind can be illuminated by a love of fiction as well as truth. But to refer to fiction as truth - an example of metafiction I suppose - does both concepts a disservice in its convolutions.

    Hello by the way; and hello to The Lurking Singaporean. I trust winter at the equator is treating you kindly.
    Fiction has a habit of illuminating even those who are definitely opposed to learning those truths that often masquerade in mythic tales calculated to inform, and illustrate the experiences of early man attempting to fathom life's lessons through bitter experience leading me to believe that myths are often born of human experience.

  41. #41
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Middle of Snowwhere.
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Married (to a man)
    Posts
    16,302
    Blog Entries
    2

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by kallipolis View Post
    Fiction has a habit of illuminating even those who are definitely opposed to learning those truths that often masquerade in mythic tales calculated to inform, and illustrate the experiences of early man attempting to fathom life's lessons through bitter experience leading me to believe that myths are often born of human experience.
    I agree that myths are born of human experience; to my mind it almost goes without saying. Myths as the product of hard-won human experience represent a legacy of human achievement be savoured. I think some people are reluctant to properly attribute that achievement to humans, instead inventing a divine spark to divert our attention from the true authors, perhaps because they think more conventional authorship elevates us to a place of arrogance. But I find it to be a humbling legacy to behold and humbling to live up to through some infinitesimally tiny contribution.
    Last edited by bankside; November 29th, 2012 at 08:29 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  42. #42
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Piraeus, Greece
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    11,140

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Myths as the product of hard-won human experience represent a legacy of human achievement be savoured. I think some people are reluctant to properly attribute that achievement to humans, instead inventing a divine spark to divert our attention from the true authors, perhaps because they think more conventional authorship elevates us to a place of arrogance. But I find it to be a humbling legacy to behold and humbling to live up to through some infinitesimally tiny contribution.
    The authorship of our life is always oneself despite which inspiration that influences our decisions for our betterment often springs to life from a spark that appears to seed itself into our thoughts, as if by accident teaching me that Homer's Odyssey illustrates this fact of life by appealing to Athena (divine guidance) as that spark which enables us/Odysseus to transcend yet another overwhelming trial calculated to destroy our capacity to succeed when facing up to our daily challenges.

    Of all creatures that breathe and move upon the earth, nothing is bred that is weaker than man.” ― Homer, The Odyssey

  43. #43
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Oh. I think the far corners of the mind can be illuminated by a love of fiction as well as truth. But to refer to fiction as truth - an example of metafiction I suppose - does both concepts a disservice in its convolutions.

    Hello by the way; and hello to The Lurking Singaporean. I trust winter at the equator is treating you kindly.
    Any metaphor refers to fiction as truth. It can be convoluted, but I don't think it's a disservice.

    It's too inhuman to insist that truth is always one thing, and fiction another. I think there ought to be a time to conflate these things.

    I do also think there ought to be a time to distinguish them.

    *

    Anyway, I'm delighted to enjoy some Kalli posts. I miss your participation here.

    And like Bankside, my felicitations to Kalli's ex. Come say hello some time if you can.

  44. #44
    JUB Addict FirmaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    1,062

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    As you are staunchly anti-religion, then this must make you staunchly anti-human, too?
    Nope.

    In any case, you are wrong. Animals also display "religious" attitudes, an element of which was most famously documented by one of my heroes, Skinner.
    What is being shown is the idea that false associations between cause and effect can be learned. This is dubbed as "superstition". I would agree that some of the same psychological mechanisms are at play with religion and superstition, but human beings have gone way beyond simple errors in pattern recognition. What false associations can be found that have inspired the kinds of religious beliefs we see today? I think the bigger problem is one of indoctrination rather than simple false associations as shown in the video you posted. Do the pigeons ever teach other pigeons their "superstitious beliefs"?

  45. #45
    bathes in gluten
    zoltanspawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    4,644
    Blog Entries
    8

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    Nope.
    Are you then only staunchly opposed to what you describe as your distinguishing characteristic of humans? That is, only staunchly opposed to the thing (religious belief, per your argument) which defines our humanity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    What is being shown is the idea that false associations between cause and effect can be learned. This is dubbed as "superstition". I would agree that some of the same psychological mechanisms are at play with religion and superstition, but human beings have gone way beyond simple errors in pattern recognition. What false associations can be found that have inspired the kinds of religious beliefs we see today? I think the bigger problem is one of indoctrination rather than simple false associations as shown in the video you posted. Do the pigeons ever teach other pigeons their "superstitious beliefs"?
    I hope it was plain that I wasn't trying to suggest that superstitious behavior provides a complete account of religion. But merely that superstition, a major element of religion is present in animals; and so, religion isn't clearly a distinguishing feature of humanity.

  46. #46
    MikeyLove
    Guest

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Has it ever accurred to ya'll that TRUTH can be found embedded in FICTION, and the likes? Think of the Lord of the Rings, and Narnia Stories....they convey TRUTH embedded in FICTION. Same can be said of the Genesis stories, as there are two versions of the creation stories in Genesis....correct me if I am wrong about the two versions.

  47. #47
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Has it ever accurred to ya'll that TRUTH can be found embedded in FICTION, and the likes? Think of the Lord of the Rings, and Narnia Stories....they convey TRUTH embedded in FICTION. Same can be said of the Genesis stories, as there are two versions of the creation stories in Genesis....correct me if I am wrong about the two versions.
    The poets lie to reveal the truth.

  48. #48
    JUB Addict FirmaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    1,062

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    Are you then only staunchly opposed to what you describe as your distinguishing characteristic of humans? That is, only staunchly opposed to the thing (religious belief, per your argument) which defines our humanity?
    I never said religion is a distinguishing characteristic of humanity, nor did I say that it defines humanity. I merely said that the behavior of religious belief seems to be limited to humans.



    I hope it was plain that I wasn't trying to suggest that superstitious behavior provides a complete account of religion. But merely that superstition, a major element of religion is present in animals; and so, religion isn't clearly a distinguishing feature of humanity.
    Again, never said it was a distinguishing feature, simply a unique one. Yes, some animals may exhibit the evolutionary roots that lead humans to acquire such a unique behavior, but there is a big distinction between what those birds were showing vs the behavior of religious belief. I would say it is even a stretch to say that the pigeons were displaying superstition - I would say it is a simple matter of false association.

  49. #49
    JUB Addict FirmaFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    1,062

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Has it ever accurred to ya'll that TRUTH can be found embedded in FICTION, and the likes? Think of the Lord of the Rings, and Narnia Stories....they convey TRUTH embedded in FICTION. Same can be said of the Genesis stories, as there are two versions of the creation stories in Genesis....correct me if I am wrong about the two versions.
    In the examples you gave, especially the narnia one, truth is projected on the fiction by the observer. Narnia stories are near carbon-copies of the new testament, and only one that already has a presupposition of the truth of the new testament would find any truth in the narnia stories.

  50. #50
    Know thyself kallipolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Piraeus, Greece
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    11,140

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Evolution and the Christian Principle of Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    The poets lie to reveal the truth.
    Myth is not a collection of fictional stories, or events that attempt to convey certain truths rather, is an understanding that an audience learns from their participation in the adventure story being told...........earlier in this thread, I quoted Homer's, Odyssey and the struggles of Odysseus' twenty years journey returning to his home island, Ithaca following the end of the Trojan War to illustrate that each, and everyone of us faces our own daily trials, and tribulations without exception knowing that we also struggle with despair, and lack of faith in our ability to surmount the next Herculean sized struggle about to be unleashed upon us.

    History is not simply the brute retelling of facts and figures for the historian never seeks to simply give the "whole story" objectively, but to provide an interpretation of the events that shaped the story. All-to-often many historians seek to provide novel variations on the older interpretations of past events that have fashioned the present.The process of recording and passing on history relies heavily on the art of myth. Historians seek to bring the past to life in such a way that we can see the roots of our present life in our collective past as Homer has done in writing his version of Odysseus' adventures returning to his home kingdom.

    Even when our world was new it was driven by human envy, exploitation, rivalry, oppression, competition, violence, exclusion, and murder. Historians are very good at identifying concrete problems and revealing specific connections between past and present events, people and places whereas, story authors are adept at capturing the inherent mystery of the human adventure. For that we need the myth.

    Most of us who are students of history, and that includes all of us who are observers of the modern world with its focus on the concrete and the scientifically and historically verifiable have lost the sense of mystery. Even those among us who want to be spiritual find ourselves co-opted by the universal pragmatism of the ecclesiastical or, diverted by the cultural mores of tribal religion. We find it hard to resist the message of every jingle, every ad that say Christmas is about, going to gifts under fir trees, red nosed reindeer, and a jolly fat grandfather who bears only a passing resemblance to his ancient episcopal forefather (and even in that owes more to the advertising budget of Coco-Cola than to history).

    When as a boy I read the stories of Achilles, Robin Hood, Sinbad the Sailor, Hercules and other similar adventures filled with heroes I was also learning that in due time I would be obliged to face up to my own trials, learning from the wisdom of Odysseus fighting his way back home, that as I solved my current struggle so another would be waiting for me to conquer its attempts to overwhelm my capacity, to learn all that I needed to learn by mastering all the trials that life continues to provide for me to grow me into a wiser, fitter person enthusiastic to become the hero of my life's story.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | About JustUsBoys.com | Site Map | RSS | Webmasters | Advertise | Link to JUB | Report A Bug on this Page

Visit our sister sites: Broke Straight Boys | CollegeDudes.com | CollegeBoyPhysicals.com | RocketTube
All models appearing on JustUsBoys.com were over 18 at the time of photography. The records for sexually explicit images required by U.S. 2257 are kept by the
individual producers of the images. The location of the records is available by clicking the Custodian of Records link at the bottom of each gallery page.
© 2012 JustUsBoys.com. The JustUsBoys.com name and logo are registered trademarks. Labeled with ICRA and RTA. Member of ASACP and The Free Speech Coalition.