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  1. #1
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    Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    A city that once thrived, filled with booming factories, now with buildings going empty and public services in trouble.

    Which city are you guessing? I'll give a hint: it's not in the US or in Europe.


    Give up? Read on:

    But these days, itís Dongguan thatís losing jobs and eyeing the United States with some envy.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...314_story.html

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    The sharpest decline in "manufacturing" in China is in textiles: from clothing to rugs. While China has gotten more "hi-tech", losing any sort of manufacturing is not good for them.

  3. #3
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    LOL! So now EVEN the Chinese manufacturing industry is being sent overseas - to Laos and Vietnam!

    I mean, at this stage why don't we just reintroduce slavery? We're lowering and lowering the bar on human rights and income to the point where people in a Nazi concentration camp or a Siberian gulag would be treated fairer than this for work. Is THIS the bright future for humanity in the 21st century? Masters and slaves?

    Call me hopelessly naive, but Western countries should be employing (gasp) THEIR OWN workers with jobs and keeping THEIR OWN industries alive, and (double-gasp) paying a FAIR wage under FAIR hours.

    It makes me want to start buying only 'fairtrade' clothing that is manufactured in U.S. or Europe.

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    LOL! So now EVEN the Chinese manufacturing industry is being sent overseas - to Laos and Vietnam!

    I mean, at this stage why don't we just reintroduce slavery? We're lowering and lowering the bar on human rights and income to the point where people in a Nazi concentration camp or a Siberian gulag would be treated fairer than this for work. Is THIS the bright future for humanity in the 21st century? Masters and slaves?

    Call me hopelessly naive, but Western countries should be employing (gasp) THEIR OWN workers with jobs and keeping THEIR OWN industries alive, and (double-gasp) paying a FAIR wage under FAIR hours.

    It makes me want to start buying only 'fairtrade' clothing that is manufactured in U.S. or Europe.
    Actually I think I would have to call you naive because the two countries China is now competing with for higher-tech manufacturing jobs is the United States and Germany... not to mention that while this is a story of decline there is a reason the Chinese manufacturing jobs are going elsewhere... cost has risen along with quality of life. However if you are purely talking clothing then sure it is going elsewhere ... but don't forget the reason. It is not in search of ever lower prices, it is in search of maintaining the low prices. I actually like buying clothing from Vietnam, Cambodia, Pakistan and Afghanistan. I would much rather give them money via purchased product instead of simply paying their governments foreign aid.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Actually I think I would have to call you naive because the two countries China is now competing with for higher-tech manufacturing jobs is the United States and Germany... not to mention that while this is a story of decline there is a reason the Chinese manufacturing jobs are going elsewhere... cost has risen along with quality of life. However if you are purely talking clothing then sure it is going elsewhere ... but don't forget the reason. It is not in search of ever lower prices, it is in search of maintaining the low prices. I actually like buying clothing from Vietnam, Cambodia, Pakistan and Afghanistan. I would much rather give them money via purchased product instead of simply paying their governments foreign aid.
    I thought everything higher tech over there was done by Japan and South Korea far more than China?

    As you say, cost has risen along with quality of life - so by reverse we can say that lowest quality of life is always being sought out for lowest cost, which to mind also equates with lowest human rights standards, lowest wage, longest hours, poorest treatment.

    Also, whether by foreign aid or purchased product, I doubt that the ordinary worker on the street sees much benefit.

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    The bubble bursting has a way of leaving poo on the faces of everyone.

    Start buying more cheap plastic shit made in China folks.

  7. #7
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Chinas economy is a bubble which will burst in the near future.

    Its ridiculous how many empty malls and apartment buildings they have over there now.

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    I thought everything higher tech over there was done by Japan and South Korea far more than China?

    As you say, cost has risen along with quality of life - so by reverse we can say that lowest quality of life is always being sought out for lowest cost, which to mind also equates with lowest human rights standards, lowest wage, longest hours, poorest treatment.

    Also, whether by foreign aid or purchased product, I doubt that the ordinary worker on the street sees much benefit.
    Well according to the article part of the issue with that city is it never morphed into higher tech and other Chinese cities were built that have the higher tech capabilities...

    Human rights are to be considered naturally and look at how many stories and attention has been given to the plight of the Chinese worker because of this major manufacturer or that is taken to task on who they have building their products...

    Certainly higher wages and a higher quality of life are preferable however if you can live, pay your rent and feed your family for 35 bucks a month then you are living the average lifestyle of a country. So is it then better to have a job and be productive whether it is for 35 a week or 3500 a week? I would wager a country with low wages that has a company employing five hundred workers has a more satisfied population than a country where the government acts primarily to distribute food and aid supplies from other countries..

    Unfortunately the world is as big as it is and there are limits to everything. Every human cannot live at the same style unless we in the western world are to abandon certain things that have become second nature. There simply are not enough power resources on planet earth for that to occur.

    In any event this is the story of a town which will eventually retool and have something else going on that pays better than textiles. So then that wage and money will go to places in Vietnam and Laos who desperately need money coming into the country. So while capitalism is horrible inefficient there aren't any alternatives I have seen to date that provide the same level of wealth promotion.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Geiri85 View Post
    Chinas economy is a bubble which will burst in the near future.

    Its ridiculous how many empty malls and apartment buildings they have over there now.
    You do have to wonder at Hu Jinto <sic> walking away from power saying everything is uncontrolled, unbalanced and unsustainable.... oh and here ya go new leadership team... have fun.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  10. #10
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    China also has a serious demographic crisis on the horizon where 40% of the country may soon be over the age of 40 by 2040... declining productivity may be a problem for them in the future. They need to initiate serious reforms and intervene in the economy. Some like to say China does intervene in the economy, but they have been turning more of a blind eye than the US did prior to the 2008 recession.

  11. #11

    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    LOL! So now EVEN the Chinese manufacturing industry is being sent overseas - to Laos and Vietnam!

    I mean, at this stage why don't we just reintroduce slavery? We're lowering and lowering the bar on human rights and income to the point where people in a Nazi concentration camp or a Siberian gulag would be treated fairer than this for work. Is THIS the bright future for humanity in the 21st century? Masters and slaves?

    Call me hopelessly naive, but Western countries should be employing (gasp) THEIR OWN workers with jobs and keeping THEIR OWN industries alive, and (double-gasp) paying a FAIR wage under FAIR hours.

    It makes me want to start buying only 'fairtrade' clothing that is manufactured in U.S. or Europe.
    Massive immigration is much more important than wages for Americans. Sure immigration pulls down wages for Americans and we have 14 million unemployed, but who cares? Immigrants and their ethnic groups vote Democrat and are giving the Democrats the one party marxist system they have worked to create. This time communism will work.

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You do have to wonder at Hu Jinto <sic> walking away from power saying everything is uncontrolled, unbalanced and unsustainable.... oh and here ya go new leadership team... have fun.
    You mean like Bush 2008?

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    So while capitalism is horrible inefficient there aren't any alternatives I have seen to date that provide the same level of wealth promotion.
    Huh? Capitalism is very efficient, for the simple reason that what people want is communicated very well to those who supply things. With production on demand and automatic inventory systems it's even more efficient.

    Our problem today is corporatism, with the corporations trying to tell people what they want, and distorting the supply and demand balance in several ways.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    BTW, China started losing manufacturing jobs several years back; I've commented on that before in this forum. The problem has now become more critical because of the changes after the banker-generated economic crisis.

    And as far as wages, they're catching up fast as far as minimum wage; they're expected to catch up somewhere around 2025.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    BTW, China started losing manufacturing jobs several years back; I've commented on that before in this forum. The problem has now become more critical because of the changes after the banker-generated economic crisis.

    And as far as wages, they're catching up fast as far as minimum wage; they're expected to catch up somewhere around 2025.
    As I, NBER and several other renown economists have said, if the US minimum wage had kept up with inflation, it would be $10 today. It is currently $7.25. I am not advocating either side but that is a fact left open for interpretation.

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    As I, NBER and several other renown economists have said, if the US minimum wage had kept up with inflation, it would be $10 today. It is currently $7.25. I am not advocating either side but that is a fact left open for interpretation.
    Depends where you start -- if you calculate from JFK's time, the minimum wage today should be almost $20.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #17

    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    If you add the additional taxes, benefits, burdens and liabilites upon employees which have been added, the cost to employers is much higher than in JFKs time.

  18. #18
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Huh? Capitalism is very efficient, for the simple reason that what people want is communicated very well to those who supply things. With production on demand and automatic inventory systems it's even more efficient.

    Our problem today is corporatism, with the corporations trying to tell people what they want, and distorting the supply and demand balance in several ways.
    Capitalism is horribly inefficient at ensuring a stable and fair outcome for all people to live at the same standard. I said the previous statement incorrectly... Capitalism's efficiency at removing excess to get to the lowest cost is a base reason for poverty.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    OK -- FIRST of all -- JAYHAWK is WAY TOO SMART about this stuff and should be BANNED from the thread...

    I'm with YOU Chickenguy...

    My HEART tells me to BUY AMERICAN -- even if it IS a little more expensive...

    I'm even willing to buy European -- when possible -- because their standards have ALWAYS been HIGH!!!

    And -- of course I'll buy Australian when it comes to beer or tanning lotion...

    And then when it comes to Chinese Checkers -- well -- MAYBE China???

    I guess the list goes on and ON...

    The world is CERTAINLY getting SMALLER!!!

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    You mean like Bush 2008?
    Yes very much like that.... yet the Chinese get a ten year term from the word go and none of that pesky voting to worry about... just power plays. China has been forecast to be falling apart on a grand scale based on the demographic problems GC mentioned to the changing nature of the markets. The US economy where ALL of our citizens have access to cheap credit with very little repercussions for failing to repay that debt is gone and is not coming back. The fact that our banks are still trying foolishly to get that credit scam going again tells me the banking sector has not learned and moved on from our previous bubbles. Regardless without that spending the Chinese and European economies will have to find a different route to recovery. Same goes for America... continued growth forever is unsustainable.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  21. #21
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Massive immigration is much more important than wages for Americans.
    Wake up, Dude. If massive immigration ever happens in the US, I reckon weíll be sure to visit its potential effects. Until then itís just an imaginary perturbation, much like the fears promoted by soon-to-be-former-Congressman Allen West.

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Capitalism is horribly inefficient at ensuring a stable and fair outcome for all people to live at the same standard. I said the previous statement incorrectly... Capitalism's efficiency at removing excess to get to the lowest cost is a base reason for poverty.
    The foundation of any effective economic system is the efficient identification of needs and/or wants and the supply of those needs. That's the only thing that can be called efficiency on economic terms.

    What you're talking about OTOH is effectiveness, the ability of an economy to provide the basics for everyone and the measure of accomplishing that.

    BTW, having "all people to live at the same standard" as a goal is the best prescription known for making an econom neither efficient nor effective.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #23
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Wake up, Dude. If massive immigration ever happens in the US, I reckon we’ll be sure to visit its potential effects. Until then it’s just an imaginary perturbation, much like the fears promoted by soon-to-be-former-Congressman Allen West.
    Yep. Even counting illegals, the immigration rate barely replaces the indigenous birth rate which we no longer have because people are having fewer children.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The foundation of any effective economic system is the efficient identification of needs and/or wants and the supply of those needs. That's the only thing that can be called efficiency on economic terms.

    What you're talking about OTOH is effectiveness, the ability of an economy to provide the basics for everyone and the measure of accomplishing that.

    BTW, having "all people to live at the same standard" as a goal is the best prescription known for making an econom neither efficient nor effective.
    Okay... we'll use your words if it makes you feel better about it.... Capitalism is inefficient at being effective for equality.

    Ahhh but is that not the expressed desire of those who lament that the quality of life in country x,y or z? Or even better isnt that the goal of many different groups in America to ensure employees have all the same benefits and supports systems?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Depends where you start -- if you calculate from JFK's time, the minimum wage today should be almost $20.
    Nope. Federal minimum wage in 1961 was $1.15 in today's dollars would be a mere $8.90.

    I took 1970's fed minimum wag which was $1.60 and it would be $9.54 in today's dollars.

    If you actually chart the minimum wage(x) for today's dollars (y), the peak would be in 1968 at $10.54.

    I spent undergrad doing this shit.

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Okay... we'll use your words if it makes you feel better about it.... Capitalism is inefficient at being effective for equality.

    Ahhh but is that not the expressed desire of those who lament that the quality of life in country x,y or z? Or even better isnt that the goal of many different groups in America to ensure employees have all the same benefits and supports systems?
    All most people want is enough to be comfortable; that everyone should have the basics and a bit more. I believe that soon we'll have the capability of arranging the first, thanks to robotics (though we need a better energy source).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    That is the key... energy. All things great and small come down to that one key ingredient.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  28. #28
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Nope. Federal minimum wage in 1961 was $1.15 in today's dollars would be a mere $8.90.

    I took 1970's fed minimum wag which was $1.60 and it would be $9.54 in today's dollars.

    If you actually chart the minimum wage(x) for today's dollars (y), the peak would be in 1968 at $10.54.

    I spent undergrad doing this shit.
    I got my figure from an economics blog. They operated on estimates of actual inflation, not government figures. I know government figures come out to $9 or $10 per hour, but government figures have consistently run on the order of 1%+ low. That adjustment gives a minimum wage of about $14.50. In my judgment, from much I've read in financial magazines, that's a conservative adjustment in the inflation rate; for example,many believe that the government's figure right now is 2% or more low (for last year).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #29
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Well, I'm glad to see my e-mails actually do garner some active discourse, even if it's not on the back channel!

    This is even better. I don't have the time/energy to post all the stuff I share back channel on here, so I'm glad somebody is doing it.

    It's obvious from reading some of the posts on here that some people haven't kept abreast of the World Economic Situation, and are preferring to play pedantic politics, instead.

    China and the EU are our two largest trading partners, not to discount Canada or Japan. The EU is in the toilet, economically, and China is having a deuce of a time keeping their engine running, too. THAT is why, at this point, the US economy is so sluggish to recover. (Well, Congress behaving like a bunch of spoiled 2 year olds hasn't helped, but . . .).

    Free Trade was designed to help bolster two-way trade with other countries, economies - India saw a boon of outsourcing, including all of the "tech support" (read from the chart and don't deviate) centers. "American" companies got a lot of backlash about it, due to the cultural issues that made EFFECTIVE communication possible.

    OTOH, as they grew their economies, their people started to demand higher wages - where 25% of US pay scales was once a dream, they have pushed beyond that.

    The same thing is happening in China. The state mandated fixed exchange rate of the Ruan to the US$ has come under pressure - the US has filed (over 100?) trade suits against China for unfair trade practices.

    All of this is good, long term. China also has to come to terms with pollution control as their own people start to complain, vociferously, about the poisoned air and water.

    Viet Nam is an interesting case study - textiles have moved towards them, but so has labor intensive high quality wood craftsmanship.
    Stickley Furniture, the Icon of the Arts & Crafts furniture movement, which is headquartered near Syracuse, NY, opened a factory in Viet Nam - http://www.stickley.com/news-popup.c...splay&pr_id=61

    Vietnam Expansion
    — MANLIUS, NY, May, 18, 2005


    Stickley is expanding its manufacturing capabilities by adding a manufacturing plant in Vietnam. "The new 187,000 square foot factory will provide an opportunity for Stickley to offer a more diversified product line and to open new markets globally," said Edward Audi, a partner in Stickley. The new plant in the Binh Duong Province began production on March 4, 2005.

    On March 30, 2005, Stickley Limited International produced its first piece of furniture. The full collection of Antiquities by Stickley will be manufactured in Vietnam. Madison Square by Stickley, a collection of 50 occasional pieces, will also be manufactured in Binh Duong.

    Stickley's former plant manager in Manlius is currently overseeing operation of the new factory. In addition Stickley currently employs nearly 200 Vietnamese immigrants in its Manlius plant. Many will take turns returning to Vietnam for short intervals to train the new Vietnamese workers and to reconnect with their families in Vietnam.

    Commenting on this expansion, Alfred Audi, president of L. & J.G. Stickley said, "We are very excited and optimistic about the future growth of our company and our ability to compete globally. Throughout our 30 years of owning Stickley, our focus has been to offer great value at the high end. The next couple of years will be both challenging and exciting. Our management team is in place and positioned for this growth."

    Other information I have read over time - the Vietnamese workers in Manlius have shifted back and forth between the US and Vietnam, where they can be "home, with family".

    The pay rate in Vietnam allows Stickley to produce finely detailed wood furniture, doing the more intricate cut work in Vietnam, then doing the major crafting, assembly, finishing in the Manlius plant.

    This is not cheap furniture - it includes their Bungalow collection.

    So, not everything made overseas is cheap quality.

    And, to ChickenGuy - haven't you seen all the broohaha in the "press" about Apple's Chinese partner in manufacturing, and the employees' dissatisfaction with conditions? That is just the tip of the iceberg - ASUS and Lenovo (formerly IBM ThinkPad) are both made in China, if I am not mistaken - I may be, but I don't think I am.


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    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Actually I think I would have to call you naive because the two countries China is now competing with for higher-tech manufacturing jobs is the United States and Germany... not to mention that while this is a story of decline there is a reason the Chinese manufacturing jobs are going elsewhere... cost has risen along with quality of life. However if you are purely talking clothing then sure it is going elsewhere ... but don't forget the reason. It is not in search of ever lower prices, it is in search of maintaining the low prices. I actually like buying clothing from Vietnam, Cambodia, Pakistan and Afghanistan. I would much rather give them money via purchased product instead of simply paying their governments foreign aid.
    So it is all about industrial competition like the Olympic games but in a massive industrial scale.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    I don't know about that Telstra... just that all three countries are vying to have companies build whatever techno fangled hunk of consumer crap we are buying these days... It is what my President was saying during the reelection campaign about training and incentive's for high tech jobs in the US...

    Did you know thousands of jobs are currently unfilled in our high unemployment and slow growing economy because of lack of skills? Almost entirely in high tech manufacturing... Essentially China is experiencing the same situation where they have an entire town that used to boom but doesn't have business anymore and the workers dont have the skills to compete.

    We could take a large scale ghost town like Detroit and turn it back into a manufacturing mecca with the right incentives. However cheap things like clothing will not be made here. At least not for consumption by the mainstream. I purchase a good majority of my clothes from either US manufacturers or renewable companies like Nau... That is how I chose to make a point is with my feet and my dollar. Not everyone can afford such a choice and it would be cruel to require it somehow.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Capitalism is better at making more from less. Prosperity means making more things, better things, consumable things, durable things that raise the standard of living. Capitalism makes more stuff than other systems of economic organisation, like central planning, or oligarchic warrant, or subsistence peasantry, or autarchic socialism, or anarchic barter, or warlording piracy. All crap.

    If workers agree that they are not getting a fair share of the stuff capitalism is so good at producing, they need to say so. Nothing un-capitalist about that; they are entitled to a return on their human capital.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  33. #33
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Did you know thousands of jobs are currently unfilled in our high unemployment and slow growing economy because of lack of skills? Almost entirely in high tech manufacturing... Essentially China is experiencing the same situation where they have an entire town that used to boom but doesn't have business anymore and the workers dont have the skills to compete.
    How many here are aware that this shortage is due to two men, Bush I and W. Clinton? Their policies pushed students away from trade and technical schools and into college.

    So far Obama has talked about fixing that, but I don't see anything he's done about it.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    If workers agree that they are not getting a fair share of the stuff capitalism is so good at producing, they need to say so. Nothing un-capitalist about that; they are entitled to a return on their human capital.
    Bingo. I was muttering at the tube yesterday when it showed how Walmart is trying legal action to keep their workers from organizing. They were opposing the presence of any union members supporting their striking workers. But their workers have the right not only to organize, but to invite anyone they wish to join them in making their public statement.

    Corporations have no right to insisting on workers being isolated atoms. Workers have every right to stand together.

    And for the usual suspects, that's not Marxism, it's good sound libertarianism: those workers own themselves, and if they want to exercise their freedom of association and of the very same thing that makes a corporation, freedom of cooperation, no one can say them nay.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  35. #35
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    If you add the additional taxes, benefits, burdens and liabilites upon employees which have been added, the cost to employers is much higher than in JFKs time.
    No it's not. Tax rates back in the 1960s and 1970s were far higher than they are now percentage wise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Wake up, Dude. If massive immigration ever happens in the US, I reckon weíll be sure to visit its potential effects. Until then itís just an imaginary perturbation, much like the fears promoted by soon-to-be-former-Congressman Allen West.
    It's just more delusional xenophobia in my opinion. And immigration has actually declined in the US, in fact people are actually leaving the country. Ben just wants to blame someone for the screw ups of the republican party of course. We as a people had to endure eight years of Bush fuck ups.

  36. #36
    JUB Addict cgymike's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Nothing is "Made in USA" anymore and that's a fact pretty much. Even if it says it is - it's assembled in Mexico or some other cheapie labour country.

    Ok - now the wolves are going to tear me apart saying I'm wrong. LOL
    Your post comments are forwarded to the CIA.

  37. #37
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    Nothing is "Made in USA" anymore and that's a fact pretty much. Even if it says it is - it's assembled in Mexico or some other cheapie labour country.

    Ok - now the wolves are going to tear me apart saying I'm wrong. LOL
    Well what is manufactured in the US is usually costing more because of labor costs... or if it is assembled in the US all the parts are made in Mexico, Taiwan and China.

  38. #38
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    Nothing is "Made in USA" anymore and that's a fact pretty much. Even if it says it is - it's assembled in Mexico or some other cheapie labour country.

    Ok - now the wolves are going to tear me apart saying I'm wrong. LOL
    I wont tear ya apart but I do buy American often or if not American then from another country to support a cause. That stuff does cost more but i choose to do it. Such as with the Nau clothing retailer I mentioned above. The area we excel at on a global scale is tech. Take a look at the world bank figures for high tech exports. The US is third in the world behind China and Germany. Pretty difficult to export something not made in the country it is leaving from....

    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TX.VAL.TECH.CD

    So no not to tear you apart but when you are wrong you are wrong.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  39. #39
    JUB Addict cgymike's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Well what is manufactured in the US is usually costing more because of labor costs... or if it is assembled in the US all the parts are made in Mexico, Taiwan and China.
    Good point - assembled in usa could mean Made in Mexico etc. But the nub of this issue IS labour costs and why are they so uncompetitive in the USA. Unions must be to blame. The ultimate failure of US collective bargaining GM being the poster child for all that....
    Your post comments are forwarded to the CIA.

  40. #40
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    Good point - assembled in usa could mean Made in Mexico etc. But the nub of this issue IS labour costs and why are they so uncompetitive in the USA. Unions must be to blame. The ultimate failure of US collective bargaining GM being the poster child for all that....
    That's what I think many companies that pride themselves about having products "made in the USA" do... really only assembled with all the parts from other countries.

    As far as unions... well, Germany has a significant manufacturing sector that is enduring quite well and they too have unions. The problem with "made in America" companies is a lack of innovation.

    JH, lets keep in mind that even products made here in the US are often made with imported parts. Perhaps companies are starting to see "Made in the USA" may conjure some feelings of patriotism... and could help improve sales (but that's speculation on my part).

  41. #41
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    Good point - assembled in usa could mean Made in Mexico etc. But the nub of this issue IS labour costs and why are they so uncompetitive in the USA. Unions must be to blame. The ultimate failure of US collective bargaining GM being the poster child for all that....
    Unions have some but little of the overall blame. they simply want a fair set of benefits and wages. look at two very recent examples. hostess run off a cliff into debt by mismanagement. Somehow the initial message is union refuses to budge on 8% pay drop to keep doors open... right? Then come to find out the executives took 6 and 8 hundred percent raises before declaring bankruptcy and they are actually asking for a cut in 40% of their overall benefits. Now currently owing already agreed to benefits of 160 million to the workers.

    Then look at Walmart... earning 850 million as CEO and 85 Billion as a company but they can't pay their employees a living wage...

    I used to be one of those folks who stood up and said... you know what I sacrificed to get what i have. those folks working minimum wage didnt so fuck them. But it is becoming the situation across America in almost every job.

    Long story short I am much less likely to immediately simply assume the unions are the fault. Not off the table that they assume some blame but I need facts first.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    That's what I think many companies that pride themselves about having products "made in the USA" do... really only assembled with all the parts from other countries.

    As far as unions... well, Germany has a significant manufacturing sector that is enduring quite well and they too have unions. The problem with "made in America" companies is a lack of innovation.

    JH, lets keep in mind that even products made here in the US are often made with imported parts. Perhaps companies are starting to see "Made in the USA" may conjure some feelings of patriotism... and could help improve sales (but that's speculation on my part).
    Actually the key ingredient that keeps things made in America is ingenuity.

    Assembled in America is STILL paying an american wage to assemble parts where the high tech part is made here and the lower tech chassis and such are made elsewhere to keep cost lower.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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  42. #42
    JUB Addict cgymike's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Unions have some but little of the overall blame. they simply want a fair set of benefits and wages. look at two very recent examples. hostess run off a cliff into debt by mismanagement. Somehow the initial message is union refuses to budge on 8% pay drop to keep doors open... right? Then come to find out the executives took 6 and 8 hundred percent raises before declaring bankruptcy and they are actually asking for a cut in 40% of their overall benefits. Now currently owing already agreed to benefits of 160 million to the workers.

    Then look at Walmart... earning 850 million as CEO and 85 Billion as a company but they can't pay their employees a living wage...

    I used to be one of those folks who stood up and said... you know what I sacrificed to get what i have. those folks working minimum wage didnt so fuck them. But it is becoming the situation across America in almost every job.

    Long story short I am much less likely to immediately simply assume the unions are the fault. Not off the table that they assume some blame but I need facts first.



    Actually the key ingredient that keeps things made in America is ingenuity.

    Assembled in America is STILL paying an american wage to assemble parts where the high tech part is made here and the lower tech chassis and such are made elsewhere to keep cost lower.
    Sounds like you have your head immersed in the "99%" bullshit of the phony OWS movement.. Well come out of that and realise that executives who built those companies or helped build them or grow them often have a perfect right to their millions. The ones who damaged companies, did nothing or committed fraud of course do not like Enron etc. But I bet you are one of those "tax the rich to the max" to solve fiscal problems type of persons. Well you know THAT argument simply doesn't hold water.

    Unions aren't totally to blame that's correct but the inefficiency of American Unions is legend and you can't compare them to those in Germany. Different politics and yes unions are POLITICAL entities.
    Only the waste in federal government can compare to that produced by unions.

    No wonder the same product costs 5% to produce in Viet Nam compared to the USA.

    You are just far off base in your assumptions.
    Your post comments are forwarded to the CIA.

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Yes, everyone has their rights. But that's not the point. Who has how much is really a question about how much something is worth. And that is a question of negotiation.

    Coming up with the idea for a company is worth money. But so is working there.

    It is clear that owners and top executives of companies are getting a better deal than at most points in history, and there is no reason for the rest of us to let that go on without some renegotiation.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  44. #44
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    Sounds like you have your head immersed in the "99%" bullshit of the phony OWS movement.. Well come out of that and realise that executives who built those companies or helped build them or grow them often have a perfect right to their millions. The ones who damaged companies, did nothing or committed fraud of course do not like Enron etc. But I bet you are one of those "tax the rich to the max" to solve fiscal problems type of persons. Well you know THAT argument simply doesn't hold water.

    Unions aren't totally to blame that's correct but the inefficiency of American Unions is legend and you can't compare them to those in Germany. Different politics and yes unions are POLITICAL entities.
    Only the waste in federal government can compare to that produced by unions.

    No wonder the same product costs 5% to produce in Viet Nam compared to the USA.

    You are just far off base in your assumptions.
    Actually you would be the one way off base in your assumptions. I thought OWS was a ignorant waste of time. It highlighted a huge set of issues but lacked leadership, clear goals and organization. I have been quite clear on that matter. so for you to ASSUME such things... well we all know what assumption does for you.

    The thing I refer to is a company that could modernize or change and yet when the opportunity arrives they choose instead to soak the creditors for as much as they can while lining their pockets. There is a reason the judge ordered one dollar a year paychecks for the executives for instance after hostess declared bankruptcy. And it was meant to be punitive because they used the company's credit like a dirty tampon and then held out the mess for the rest of us to clean up.

    I wont assume anything about you but you lack of any research before coming to your awe inspiring conclusions is quite telling.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  45. #45
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Weird that the ignorant masses desire to blame unions for the decline of America when it is corporate decision making that holds a large portion of the blame...

    In 2010, the percentage of workers belonging to a union in the United States (or total labor union "density") was 11.4%, compared to 18.6% in Germany, 27.5% in Canada, and 70% in Finland.[1] Union membership in the private sector has fallen under 7%[2] — levels not seen since 1932.
    Anyone that thinks 11.4% of America and 7% of private sector America determines how the country goes is retarded in the derogatory sense .....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  46. #46
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Manufacturing, especially that which demands only semi- or unskilled labor, is no longer the engine that drives developed economies. So why mourn?

  47. #47
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    I have wondered that myself Jockboy but currently the onus appears a misguided attempt at blaming unions.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  48. #48

    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    The low percentage of union workers represents a huge victory for American labor. They have waged war against employers and THEY HAVE WON. Those evil employers have been defeated and driven from the field, i.e. to India etc.

  49. #49
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    Represents a huge victory? Rather a major defeat. Why? Because the workers are not in a position to demand better conditions from employers. Can we get anythign else other than the usual Faux News line?

  50. #50
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    Re: Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

    We may have turned to a "service" economy, but the companies that manufacture things are still the real engines of prosperity.

    As far as "Made in America" - it all depends on the industry, too. A LARGE & of the products I buy and sell at work are Home Grown MADE in the USA, AND environmentally friendly - welcome to the building trades.

    Gypsum Drywall - a large % of what's made today is close to, if not, 100% recycled material - you read that right - from the paper facing to the fiberglass in the fire-rated synthetic Gypsum core. Oh, know what Synthetic Gypsum (aka CaSO4.2H2O) is? The smoke stack scrubbings from Coal powered power plants, run through a limestone wash filter to lock it into a pure form.

    Cold Rolled Steel studs - made from all those cars that went to cash for clunkers (what scrap didn't wind up sold to China, Japan, etc.)

    Fiberglass Insulation - now even more eco friendly w/ Sugar Cane Stalk based binders instead of Formaldehyde Urea based.

    Ceiling Tile is made from Iron Ore Slag that is exploded/expanded.

    Fasteners, now, that's another issue - Taiwan, Korea, and China for lesser quality fasteners is still primary.


    And I know, if I'll only be true, to this glorious quest . . .

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