I dont care Justin B is a fuckin Dyke transvesdike

[tombastep]

What's the problem here?

Your constant need to have the last word.

[GiancarloC]

Your constant need to have the last word.

How ironic.

[Essex Boy]

Just a quick update. I haven't been able to find out whether our boy is descended from Heinrich Biber. However, others are asking the same question on the web so maybe we'll get an answer in due course.
A propos de bottes, I did discover by chance that the late Gore Vidal was a direct descendant of the 12th-century Provençal troubadour Peire Vidal. Fancy that.

[G-Lexington]

Then fine. I'm not going to lose sleep over someone not accepting my premise. I'm still not accepting rap as music and I never will. End of story.

See, THAT I have no trouble at all accepting.

Lex

[pat grimshaw]

Is this music? Is just part of it music? Does the music start when Peggy starts singing and does it stop being music when she stops?


...

Peggy Lee uses a closed speaking voice for the verses but modulates and vibrates her vocal chords for the chorus

[JohannBessler]

Rap not being music is not fact, it is indeed an opinion.

You're closed minded because you don't consider it music because you don't like it. None of what you stated has been fact at all.

You don't have to listen to me. Why don't you ask your music professor?

I find it a little bit disconcerting that this debate has begun to upset people. Why would a question over a genre fitting the definition of music upset people?

[pat grimshaw]

…I find it a little bit disconcerting that this debate has begun to upset people. Why would a question over a genre fitting the definition of music upset people?

Well I don't want to make personal remarks but some breeds of dog are bred likely to snap and bite. It's ironic that these two snapping biters were arguing with each other last week praising their favourite breed of snapping biting dogs.

[JP.]

I think differently with this whole Beiber thing...
Rather than extreme swing of fascination/hate- I feel pity..
Pity of his high life with legion of haterz

I mean...how come an individual stand still with all negative energy surrounds him?
His recent attitude start becoming more and more douchy/bratty

not like the first Beiber I've known

Yep, he's grown up but doesn't has to be bad/negative..
I think it has to do with all the haterz and bad press around him, no matter what he do..people just despise him so much..(beside his loyal fanbase)

I think there were a trends on youtube when something crappy/ thumbs down- over fav artists- that must be "Justin Beiber fans!" Wtf?

His baby vid receives the most hate?

Im worry about his future

[HunterM]

Music intermission...

[HunterM]

OK, you guys can go back to bitch slapping each other now.

[tombastep]

You don't have to listen to me. Why don't you ask your music professor?

I find it a little bit disconcerting that this debate has begun to upset people. Why would a question over a genre fitting the definition of music upset people?

I don't have to ask a music professor for proof. Him/her being a professor doesnt mean that he/she is the end all and be all of the subject.

[JohannBessler]

@Lex:

But Lex, nobody here denies that it's a "genre".

Some of us do question its classificaton as "music". I don't think it fits the definition.

Neither does any of the examples GDSX gave us.

[G-Lexington]

I e-mailed a couple of those music-studying friends of mine. I've only heard back from one so far. I've pasted the e-mail below.

To: Lex
From: N.N.
Re: A music related question.

>>>Is rap actually music?

...you're kidding, right?

NN

Lex

[JohannBessler]

^lol

That can be taken either way.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't have to ask a music professor for proof. Him/her being a professor doesnt mean that he/she is the end all and be all of the subject.

Well, then, if you can't go to a music professor--whom WOULD you go to?

[G-Lexington]

I wrote back. "No, I'm not kidding. Is 'rap' music?"

Lex

[tombastep]

^lol

That can be taken either way.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, then, if you can't go to a music professor--whom WOULD you go to?

Nobody. I think it is music and I think the people who usually say a certain genre isnt do so because they dont like it. And i tend to think it comes off a bit condescending. People could probably make arguments for other genres for not being "music."

[JohannBessler]

^I see that point of view, Tomba.

I admit that I don't like the genre. But neither do I like the genres of Indian music or Korean folk music, both of which I find even more unlistenable than rap.

However, I wanted to separate my personal dislike out of the conversation, and wanted to see if we could have a scholarly debate on whether rap fits the definition of music.

One can find parallels. For example: Does Ebonics classify as a language? I don't think it does--I consider it a "dialect", but others might disagree. Consider this: suppose they invented a pill that contained all our daily nutrients. Could we classify it as a "food"? I probably wouldnt.

It all goes back to definitions, who makes them, and who accepts them. Personally, I can't accept the definition of rap as "music". But that's just me. Others look at it differently.

And my esteemed colleagues, I do fear we have beat this dead horse too long. Shall we put this to bed?

With kindest regards.

[Ninja108]

If it wasn't for pre teen girls...he would have no career. I'm hoping his 15 mins of fame will be up soon.

[MisterMajestic]

It's amazing how The Beiber has Teen-girls passing out @ his concerts and he's got Gay guys getting into purse fights....

Create a Bieber thread anywhere in Cyber-space and people flock to it like Bees to Honey....

If it wasn't for pre teen girls...he would have no career. I'm hoping his 15 mins of fame will be up soon.

YouTube gave birth to The Beiber, then they sold him to Ebay..Usher & Justine Timberlake placed Ebay Bids on him and Usher won...

The Teen girls buying into Bieber's Bubble-gum appeal is simply their right of passage as teens...They will hate themselves years later...

[Kulindahr]

I seriously think we could delineate the borders between music, singing, chant, etc. better if we used sets; the problem is I can't draw them here -- so I'll try to describe.

Start with chant: at some point between recitation and multitone with harmony, chant passes from "speaking" to "singing". To say that chant isn't song is incorrect, because some is' in other words, the set of chant overlaps the set of song, but is not covered by it.

Singing, on the other hand, falls entirely within the set called "music". Thus some, but not all, chant counts as music.

Music, or course, includes singing, instrumental, and mixes of the two; i.e. vocal and instrumental intersect. Some chant is supported by instruments, so the set of chant also intersects instrumental.

Also included in the set of "music" is percussion. Percussion is similar to chant, in that very simple percussion is often not counted as music, whereas more complex, whether because of tonal instruments or complexity, is. And of course percussion intersects with song, with chant, and with instrumental.

Now to rap. Rap is a form of chant. We know that some chant counts as singing, and thus as music. Rap, for the most part, doesn't count as singing -- but does that exclude it from being counted as music?

The issue comes down to this: rap breaks some establishes rules about music. It has vocals, but the vocals have no melody. Similarly, it has harmony, but in frequently no melody. The vocals have definite rhythm, some tone, and variations in volume, thus resembling percussion. It's an odd critter, so arguing over whether it's music isn't any surprise.

If we stick with the traditional definition of music, the answer is that it doesn't qualify. OTOH, it has a heap of the characteristics of music, even of song (where it lacks but one qualification). So I think it's best to look at it as a different form of music, one stretching the definition into new territory, territory where vocals not merely intersect with but become percussion, so the focus of a piece is no longer (melody+words) but (beat+ words). So I'll say it qualifies for the most part as music.

[G-Lexington]

He wrote back.

Yes. It's music.

He probably thinks I'm soft in the head now, but that's OK. I AM kinda soft in the head.

Lex

[JohannBessler]

^I have begun to accept Tombastep's premise that it's all subjective. Lex, I can just bet that your correspondent is in his 20s. That only goes to show that some people would choose to define it one way, while others define it a second way.

I think I can give a close analogy. My deceased friend's Mother came from Germany, and spoke a tongue called Schwabbisch (sp?) Do we define that as a language? Or is it a dialect? The Germans themselves define it as a dialect, despite the fact that--apparently--it's not mutually intelligible with High German.

Similarly, I have heard Scouse and Geordie spoken from England; one can't understand a single word of it. The English define them as dialects, but I just bet that most Americans would call them a language.

Who decides? Who defines? Your 20- or 30-something friend? Or his aged Professor? What about the Maestros at the Vienna Conservatory of Music? What about Bach himself, or Beethoven? If one could get a response out of them at all, they'd probably give a dismissive snort.

At the end of the day, I see the debate as purely academic, and as Tombastep has pointed out, subjective.

[G-Lexington]

He's 45, as it ends up, but that's neither here nor there.

Lex

[zoltanspawn]

Who decides? Who defines? Your 20- or 30-something friend? Or his aged Professor? What about the Maestros at the Vienna Conservatory of Music? What about Bach himself, or Beethoven? If one could get a response out of them at all, they'd probably give a dismissive snort.

I'll take twenty people grooving in a room over a dismissive snort for my definition of music anyday.

[refujiunderground]

this is for anybody those that doesn't think rap can be positive.

http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.co...ce/?hpt=us_bn5

the god mc gza does it once again.

[G-Lexington]

Anti-homophobia rap circa 1990. He even sings a few lines, in case you need melody. Oddly, he's mainly known for his singing these days...



Lex

[GiancarloC]

And my esteemed colleagues, I do fear we have beat this dead horse too long. Shall we put this to bed?

With kindest regards.

I think it was mostly my fault ... should have kept this topic to Bieber. Who needs to fade from the scene as soon as possible.

That video Kario, Galante & Yaret did with Bieber dolls was hilarious though...

[tombastep]

It's amazing how The Beiber has Teen-girls passing out @ his concerts and he's got Gay guys getting into purse fights....

Create a Bieber thread anywhere in Cyber-space and people flock to it like Bees to Honey....

Funny how most of this thread has nothing to do with Beiber.

[mbamike]

Funny how most of this thread has nothing to do with Beiber.

That explains it!

I couldn't understand why a Bierber thread would have over two hundred posting. I don't find him that interesting. Now I know.

[tombastep]

Me neither, to be honest I never even heard one of his songs. I mainly came to the thread because of who the OP was and wanted to see what ridiculous things he was saying.

[Keeland]

I think a photo retrospective, starting with Sinatra and ending with Bieber, might prove very interesting.

Vo-doe-dee-o-doe! You'd have to start with Rudy Vallée.



Wish I could find the Warner Bros. cartoon of Frank Sinatra as a crooning farmyard rooster making all the hens melt into puddles.

[G-Lexington]

Wish I could find the Warner Bros. cartoon of Frank Sinatra as a crooning farmyard rooster making all the hens melt into puddles.

"FRANKIE!!!"



Lex

[Keeland]

^^^ Thanks for posting that! It's been too many years to count since I've seen it, and on TV. Don't know how I missed it on YouTube.

[pat grimshaw]

These nose-pickers seem to have a trace of melody (even though I cant hear half of the lyrics)