Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

[Jack Springer]

Frankly, I'm sick of the Israeli vs. the rest of the middle east thing but Israel does have a a right to defend themselves.

As a country Israel has gone much further, done more good, produced more than any other country in that region.

The other countries have had the same opportunities -- however they choose not to use those opportunities.

Will this be settled in our lifetimes? I hope it will .. but I doubt it. The Bible shows the conflict for thousands of years.

[rareboy]

The worst thing that ever happened was that Israel and Palestine also became a proxy battleground in the Cold War. Without the new imperial powers, USSR and the USA fighting one another in this region....perhaps there might have been a chance for peace earlier than later.

It was really only when Sadat shifted Egypt away from the Soviet sphere of influence that the dynamic really shifted to the conflict being between the middle eastern theocracies, monarchies, despots and Israel.

But honest to Pete. Israel, with a consistent policy of settlements on the West Bank has made it really, really hard to stand behind them. Frankly, they are no different than China's occupation of Tibet or the European occupation of Africa. What they are doing is no different than what Hitler did with the occupation of Poland and the Sudetenland. Conquering territory and then forcing out the inhabitants. In this case, with the tacit approval and blessing of the west.

I often pose the question to my North American friends. In what way is this acceptable?

Why does everyone think that there would not be violent consequences?

Given the pattern of encroachment and settlement, how is it that the nation of Israel can be held up as a beacon of democracy and a model state?

The seeds have been so widely and deeply sown for conflict, that I don't think even a thousand years will bring about a resolution.

[Jack Springer]

Recently there was another thread on CEP denouncing any gay person who did not vote for Obama -- the main reason was Obama's support of gay rights and the lack of support on the republican side.

I now ask how could any gay guy not support a country who is very liberal concerning gay rights and support a group of people who do not believe in your rights to exist to the point that they would kill you?

That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

[Telstra]

I support Israel but it seems Israel did more wrongs than the Palestinians.
It is very hard to negotiate if they are too arrogant and too aggressive.


Is it true that there are 50% of Arabs live in Israel ?

[TX-Beau]

..... and around and around we go.....

[JayHawk]

Israel will invade because the rockets wont stop... it isn't about Palestinians either... it is about the Iran backed terrorist group Hamas and their desire to fight a proxy war with the west vis-a-vis Israel.

So Israel will invade and effectively clear out the caches of rockets.
The Palestinians will show pictures of collateral damage as the cowardly terrorist hide behind women and children.
Then hostilities will end as the world condemns what they are all saying Israel is within it's rights to do now so Israel will pull back but place very difficult to contravene checkpoints to stop missiles from being shipped into the country.
Civil rights groups will wait six months so the worlds view isn't on Israelis dying from rocket strikes and they will then claim the Israeli checkpoints are humanitarian disasters.
The world pressure will force the Israelis back.
The Palestinians will start to rebuild.
The less effective checkpoints will then allow the smuggling of rockets and terrorist asshats will launch missiles into Israel again....

Rinse ....

Repeat....

been the story of my entire life and most of yours as well... no solution until Iran is prevented from sponsoring terror through inclusion or destruction.

[JustMe5]

I now ask how could any gay guy not support a country who is very liberal concerning gay rights and support a group of people who do not believe in your rights to exist to the point that they would kill you?

Some secular Jews in Israel support gay causes. But religious Jews? Forget about it. Israel is no different than many other countries where religion plays a strong role, in that homosexuality is considered an abomination.

[rareboy]

Recently there was another thread on CEP denouncing any gay person who did not vote for Obama -- the main reason was Obama's support of gay rights and the lack of support on the republican side.

I now ask how could any gay guy not support a country who is very liberal concerning gay rights and support a group of people who do not believe in your rights to exist to the point that they would kill you?

That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Such an interesting question.

One notes that in the first instance, the support for homo rights does not result in an existential threat for anyone else....voting for Obama because he supports gay rights was likely one of a number of reasons that he was the overwhelming favourite of homos.

The unwavering support of Isaeli occupation of all the territory that was once Palestine because they tolerate homosexuality does potentially come with the cost of complicity in creation of an existential threat of individuals and communities.

That creates more of a moral dilemma. Just because someone threatens my rights as a homo, does not necessarily mean that I want to see them and their families suffer or that I want them wiped from the face of the earth. You are not alone though, in wishing that very thing.

What to do. What to do.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the crisis will continue long after I am dead and like all other conquests, diasporas and winner take all occupations....the future will tell the tale as to how successful this 65 year old experiment will be.

[BostonPirate]

Because you have none to offer.

If you level an accusation, you better have evidence to back it up, sorry. You got nothing.

I'm not an idiot buddy. Take a look at that map. There are only three options available... Either the occupants of that land were forcibly evacuated a la pogroms, or they were killed a la Holocaust, or they are rounded up and crunched into that little bit of land into camps, with meager existences, like the holocaust.

What's else? Self Deportation? IS that a policcy you agree with?



Don;t tell me what proof is needed, pal. There's the map. Tell me where the people went. To disneyland?

I am not saying that the Palestinians have clean hands, what I am saying is I respect the Israelis enough to expect them to TRY to have cleaner hands.

They haven't in decades and as soon as we get past the childish antics of Nah ah and he hit me first, the sooner a solution will be found.

YOU tell me what that maps means for the people that USED to live there? What are the options, Mr Logic? Are you so wed to the concept of being an apologist that you can't see the forest through the trees.

According to the ministry, 850 people have been wounded in Gaza since the hostilities began on Wednesday. They included 260 children and 140 women.

Israel puts its death toll since Wednesday at three civilians - two men and a woman killed by a rocket fired from Gaza. Police said more than 60 people have been wounded.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2159085.html

Explain to me why these numbers make sense. explain to me how this is a measured response that WONT start a war in which thousands of Israelis are killed?

You have to have your head examined if you think supporting this war is good for Israel.

[JayHawk]

SO ok... someone show me the sovereign country of Palestine that delineates their country and it's accepted boundaries. That map posted above is a fucking fairly tale.

If that is going to be the argument.

[Telstra]

Israel will invade because the rockets wont stop... it isn't about Palestinians either... it is about the Iran backed terrorist group Hamas and their desire to fight a proxy war with the west vis-a-vis Israel.

So Israel will invade and effectively clear out the caches of rockets.
The Palestinians will show pictures of collateral damage as the cowardly terrorist hide behind women and children.
Then hostilities will end as the world condemns what they are all saying Israel is within it's rights to do now so Israel will pull back but place very difficult to contravene checkpoints to stop missiles from being shipped into the country.
Civil rights groups will wait six months so the worlds view isn't on Israelis dying from rocket strikes and they will then claim the Israeli checkpoints are humanitarian disasters.
The world pressure will force the Israelis back.
The Palestinians will start to rebuild.
The less effective checkpoints will then allow the smuggling of rockets and terrorist asshats will launch missiles into Israel again....

Rinse ....

Repeat....

been the story of my entire life and most of yours as well... no solution until Iran is prevented from sponsoring terror through inclusion or destruction.

Do you agree with Miko Peled ?

[JayHawk]

Is that the guy who says eradicate the Palestinian people from Israel? Honestly?

I don't want that to be the solution BUT that people representing Palestinians have rejected every single overture made to them for the chance to be their own self defined people. I cannot support eradication but forcing them into refugee status into the countries that are fomenting the violence anyways... yes that could work... then the rockets would have to be launched over national borders and other avenues to punish nations who chose to attack Israel would then exist like sanctions and economic isolation..... pretty much every side is using Palestinians to beat out their anger with the other party...

[rareboy]

I found this map which provides more detail of the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza



And this....which tells more about the overlay of activity in the West Bank territory.

[JayHawk]

RB I still fail to see the country called Palestine that was ripped away from its rightful owners by the evil jews.... it never existed.... and the Arabs and Muslim countries in the area have used the one foothold they have in the region to foment antisemitism from the word go...

[rareboy]

The UN intended a two state solution.

Which, of course...has never happened. Because the Palestinians have never accepted that their country was summarily turned over to create a separate, ascendant Jewish State as reparation for the second world war and about 1000 years of European mistreatment of the diaspora Jews.

But the Palestinians were granted autonomous territory on the West Bank and in Gaza. Which is being consumed by Jewish settlements that every western nation, including the US has said must not continue.

And this is why there is no solution.

sigh

[JayHawk]

Oh I get the background... the problem is two fold... while the Palestinians struggles to ever find themselves as a country able to care for itself it is bombarded by outside influence that seek to keep it unstable... meanwhile the Jewish state came to the conclusion that there would never be peace a LONG time ago so they started settling the Palestinian areas... so the Jewsih are wrong for settling but the Palestinians are equally wrong for not rejecting outside influence and grasping onto statehood when it was offered... this was the greatest all time failure of Yassir Arafat. After fighting for years to gain a state he rejected it when it was handed to him by Clinton.... but since he was teetering towards accepting the peace he was killed.

The solution is the world needs to let one side win and control the tiny stretches of land concerned... if the entire area was in Israeli control the Palestinians would not be ruthlessly exterminated... yet the opposite is not true....

[TX-Beau]

Problem with that is that "letting one side win," drags in the whole region, which drags in their allies - including us.

I'm sick of that region of the world as well, the fucking Romans were having these same problems in the Middle East.

[BostonPirate]

And the Israelis can't allow palestinians in their territory for fear of them gaining too much power in the Knesset.

[Jack Springer]

Such an interesting question.

One notes that in the first instance, the support for homo rights does not result in an existential threat for anyone else....voting for Obama because he supports gay rights was likely one of a number of reasons that he was the overwhelming favourite of homos.

The unwavering support of Isaeli occupation of all the territory that was once Palestine because they tolerate homosexuality does potentially come with the cost of complicity in creation of an existential threat of individuals and communities.

That creates more of a moral dilemma. Just because someone threatens my rights as a homo, does not necessarily mean that I want to see them and their families suffer or that I want them wiped from the face of the earth. You are not alone though, in wishing that very thing.

What to do. What to do.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the crisis will continue long after I am dead and like all other conquests, diasporas and winner take all occupations....the future will tell the tale as to how successful this 65 year old experiment will be.

The answer is not to be a one-issue individual. Our belief system and morals are built upon a lifetime of experiences and education.

[Telstra]

Is that the guy who says eradicate the Palestinian people from Israel? Honestly?

I don't want that to be the solution BUT that people representing Palestinians have rejected every single overture made to them for the chance to be their own self defined people. I cannot support eradication but forcing them into refugee status into the countries that are fomenting the violence anyways... yes that could work... then the rockets would have to be launched over national borders and other avenues to punish nations who chose to attack Israel would then exist like sanctions and economic isolation..... pretty much every side is using Palestinians to beat out their anger with the other party...

NO, he is the Jewish guy living in Israel who wants peace with the Palestinian.
And your post earlier isn't a solution for peace.

[JayHawk]

Telstra there will never in your life or a thousand of your lives be a peace where Israelis and Palestinians are living in the same country... never.

So the solution I offered is the only one that will work... as pointed out there have been issues dealing with that region and the folks living on that land since the dawn of time.... not about to change anytime soon.

[Telstra]

The UN intended a two state solution.

Which, of course...has never happened. Because the Palestinians have never accepted that their country was summarily turned over to create a separate, ascendant Jewish State as reparation for the second world war and about 1000 years of European mistreatment of the diaspora Jews.

But the Palestinians were granted autonomous territory on the West Bank and in Gaza. Which is being consumed by Jewish settlements that every western nation, including the US has said must not continue.

And this is why there is no solution.

sigh

When i was young, knew nothing about the Middle east, and saw the conflicts on TV,
I thought why don't Australia give Tasmania to the Jews and let ALL the Jews move to Tasmania, problems solved LOL. That was how young ignorant mind works.

Tasmania land mass is very impressive

[JockBoy87]

Don;t tell me what proof is needed, pal. There's the map. Tell me where the people went. To disneyland?

I am not saying that the Palestinians have clean hands, what I am saying is I respect the Israelis enough to expect them to TRY to have cleaner hands.

They haven't in decades and as soon as we get past the childish antics of Nah ah and he hit me first, the sooner a solution will be found.

YOU tell me what that maps means for the people that USED to live there? What are the options, Mr Logic? Are you so wed to the concept of being an apologist that you can't see the forest through the trees.

Explain to me why these numbers make sense. explain to me how this is a measured response that WONT start a war in which thousands of Israelis are killed?

You have to have your head examined if you think supporting this war is good for Israel.

I think what you have built here is a caricature of my thoughts and opinions based on that conviction you want to believe every Israeli holds, or worse, that which is fed to you by the media. Remember that "apologists" are there to bring out factual and contrasting perspectives that tend to dampen hysterical interpretations of any state of affairs.

What is interesting to me is the disparity of living standards in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and how they correlate to their respective levels of violent activity. The same is true when reflecting in history, when the main enemies of Israel were neighboring states.

While we are having that discussion, it is profoundly frustrating how little attention is paid to the Arab states and their part in the history of the Palestinian territories. Why has nobody questioned Egypt's or Jordan's role in seizing the land partitioned for an Arab state for themselves. Moreover, why have those Arab states initiated war against Israel between 1948 and 1973 which resulted in the loss of territory to Israel to the detriment of the local Arab population? Unfortunately for the Palestinian people, the Palestinian nationalist movement came rather late, and their Modus Operandi, i.e. violence perpetrated against Israeli civilians directly caused the predicament they now find themselves in.

Now back to that caricature we were talking about earlier, here is my succinct opinion: A two state solution with an expanded Palestinian territory is the only one that is just and humane. In addition, nothing good ever came out of wars, only the diplomacy that accompanied them. So don't be so quick to paint "apologists." Conspiracy theories about genocide don't do any side any good either.

Let's treat that for a moment because I think a healthy injection of definitions is due here. Genocide has pretty clear criteria. Paraphrasing the UN General Assembly Resolution 260, they include (1) a clear, intentional, and willful conspiracy to exterminate an ethnic group, (2) a demonstrable effort to purposefully and indiscriminately destroy mass human life constituting said ethnic group.

What you have provided does not prove genocide because it lacks as its goal a purposeful destruction of the Palestinian ethnicity, or a targeted destruction of its civilian population. In fact, the numbers of civilian casualties perpetrated by Israel are not even a sizable fraction of a percentage of the Palestinian population of 11 million. We had in our history as Jews various ghettos across Europe and "Pales of Settlement" in Russia, including pogroms that killed many innocent people, but who would call that Genocide?

Finally, Israel does not target civilians. I believe you have Hamas and Israel mixed up in that regard. The Jews are not savages. We hold a quarter of the Nobel Prizes in physics for heaven's sake.

[frankfrank]

You can't lock people up in a cage and then expect them to be peaceful.

The security walls have done things like separating occupants from their fields and gardens, and the occupied lands have been run as though they are huge prisons.

I've long wondered, wouldn't there be a possibility for peace if Israel would agree to STOP with those damned settlements, where they simply go in and *STEAL* Palestinian homes and tell the lifelong occupants to leave immediately?

I seem to recall there was nearly a peace agreement, but Israel adamantly refused to stop this imperialist settlement shit.

[rareboy]

The answer is not to be a one-issue individual. Our belief system and morals are built upon a lifetime of experiences and education.

I think you missed the point I was making.

[nafhoosier]

The security walls have done things like separating occupants from their fields and gardens, and the occupied lands have been run as though they are huge prisons.

I've long wondered, wouldn't there be a possibility for peace if Israel would agree to STOP with those damned settlements, where they simply go in and *STEAL* Palestinian homes and tell the lifelong occupants to leave immediately?

I seem to recall there was nearly a peace agreement, but Israel adamantly refused to stop this imperialist settlement shit.

You have a point on the settlements, but you forgot the biggest thing about the wall: It nearly stopped ALL suicide bombings that plagued Israel. That's a big freaking deal!

[BostonPirate]

I think what you have built here is a caricature of my thoughts and opinions based on that conviction you want to believe every Israeli holds, or worse, that which is fed to you by the media. Remember that "apologists" are there to bring out factual and contrasting perspectives that tend to dampen hysterical interpretations of any state of affairs.

What is interesting to me is the disparity of living standards in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and how they correlate to their respective levels of violent activity. The same is true when reflecting in history, when the main enemies of Israel were neighboring states.

While we are having that discussion, it is profoundly frustrating how little attention is paid to the Arab states and their part in the history of the Palestinian territories. Why has nobody questioned Egypt's or Jordan's role in seizing the land partitioned for an Arab state for themselves. Moreover, why have those Arab states initiated war against Israel between 1948 and 1973 which resulted in the loss of territory to Israel to the detriment of the local Arab population? Unfortunately for the Palestinian people, the Palestinian nationalist movement came rather late, and their Modus Operandi, i.e. violence perpetrated against Israeli civilians directly caused the predicament they now find themselves in.

Now back to that caricature we were talking about earlier, here is my succinct opinion: A two state solution with an expanded Palestinian territory is the only one that is just and humane. In addition, nothing good ever came out of wars, only the diplomacy that accompanied them. So don't be so quick to paint "apologists." Conspiracy theories about genocide don't do any side any good either.

Let's treat that for a moment because I think a healthy injection of definitions is due here. Genocide has pretty clear criteria. Paraphrasing the UN General Assembly Resolution 260, they include (1) a clear, intentional, and willful conspiracy to exterminate an ethnic group, (2) a demonstrable effort to purposefully and indiscriminately destroy mass human life constituting said ethnic group.

What you have provided does not prove genocide because it lacks as its goal a purposeful destruction of the Palestinian ethnicity, or a targeted destruction of its civilian population. In fact, the numbers of civilian casualties perpetrated by Israel are not even a sizable fraction of a percentage of the Palestinian population of 11 million. We had in our history as Jews various ghettos across Europe and "Pales of Settlement" in Russia, including pogroms that killed many innocent people, but who would call that Genocide?

Finally, Israel does not target civilians. I believe you have Hamas and Israel mixed up in that regard. The Jews are not savages. We hold a quarter of the Nobel Prizes in physics for heaven's sake.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I find issues with both sides, I am weary of anyone that makes excuses for either side, and I expect that until all parties, Israel included wants peace, and displays that by stopping the killing of children, then both sides are going to just kill each other I guess.

Perhaps we need to just take all the weapons away from both sides, wall them in for a century and then open the box up to see if they changed. This war is a contagion for international peace.

Sadly I doubt it will change even in a hundred years.

Fight this fight, but understand... there is no honor in killing children with bombs from drones. It's not ok when ANYONE does that, the USA included.

Global patience is running low for Israel and Palestine.

[Adrock-JD]

You have a point on the settlements, but you forgot the biggest thing about the wall: It nearly stopped ALL suicide bombings that plagued Israel. That's a big freaking deal!

I also heard that suicide bombings were replaced by rockets because Hamas can now get them through Egypt from Iran and they are much more effective than homocide bombings.

[rareboy]

Well the good news is that both sides appear to be backing away from what would have been a ground invasion.

Fingers crossed that a ceasefire has been brokered today.

Although who knows for how long.

[BostonPirate]

I also heard that suicide bombings were replaced by rockets because Hamas can now get them through Egypt from Iran and they are much more effective than homocide bombings.

Egypt is supplying them. They have tunnels large enough to drive vehicles into the area, I heard on NPR. Astounding that we are putting up with that.

Why the hell does the Israeli army target children instead of bombing these tunnels? that's one degree of stank below the shittiness of the people that dug them in the first place.

Both sides want war.

[nafhoosier]

Egypt is supplying them. They have tunnels large enough to drive vehicles into the area, I heard on NPR. Astounding that we are putting up with that.

Why the hell does the Israeli army target children instead of bombing these tunnels? that's one degree of stank below the shittiness of the people that dug them in the first place.

Both sides want war.

The Israeli army does NOT target children. [Text: Removed by Moderator]

Hamas uses human shields, shooting rockets and missiles from heavily populated civilian areas and hiding in heavily populated apartment complexes, neighborhoods, and even Mosques.

They intentionally choose these areas so that if Israel attempts to defend themselves they will kill innocent people and make Israel look bad.

If Hamas really was shooting rockets to defend its people and cared about them, they'd at least do it away from civilians and keep them out of the war.

But no, they hate Israel more than they love their people. Their hatred consumes them.

And that map before is biased BS. Israel was attacked FIRST in 1967 by other Arab countries.

[JustMe5]

[JayHawk]

an interesting article about the situation...

http://pulse.me/s/fwGaS
In country after country, democratic elections have elevated Islamist governments that have strived to more accurately reflect the will of the Arab street, and no grievance more inflames Arab public opinion than the Palestinian cause. The fact that those new governments are not only Islamist but weak (or, in the case of the Syrian government-in-waiting, fighting a violent civil war) has also created far more fertile soil and room to maneuver for violent Islamist extremist groups.

- - - Updated - - -

an interesting article about the situation...

http://www.nationaljournal.com/natio...phecy-20121120
In country after country, democratic elections have elevated Islamist governments that have strived to more accurately reflect the will of the Arab street, and no grievance more inflames Arab public opinion than the Palestinian cause. The fact that those new governments are not only Islamist but weak (or, in the case of the Syrian government-in-waiting, fighting a violent civil war) has also created far more fertile soil and room to maneuver for violent Islamist extremist groups.

[Telstra]

ahh so complicated ...

[nafhoosier]

Arab students protesting for Hamas in Jerusalem run for cover when a Hamas rocket heads there way.

Ironic, no?

[Mariatenebre]

You can't lock people up in a cage and then expect them to be peaceful.

No one is being locked up in a cage. The Pallys want war because they will never accept a Jewish nation.

Attacking is justifiable when your land is occupied by others.

The reason that Hamas is occupied is because Hamas will not accept Israel's right to exist. Further more the Pallys have no right to this land. It was originally Jewish controlled and still have a strong Jewish presence even after the Arabs ousted them from the Middle East. You should support Israel the only free and secular country in the Middle East instead of people who cut gay people's faces off.

[Mariatenebre]

Just curious what people think about this map which shows the transformation of Israel over the years ...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...tellstory.html



Who really is in the right and who is in the wrong?

There has been so much illegal activity over the decades between these groups ... that it really isn't as clear cut as simply saying "Well, Hamas fired rockets into Israel first."

Israel, under international law, appears to have illegally invaded territory that was not awarded to them, and has been condemned by the international community for not returning the land.

At the end of the day, this ugly conflict is nothing more than a land dispute. I understand that Jews feel they are entitled to the land as they originally occupied it in Biblical times.

However, since the Ottoman Empire occupied it for centuries later, and the Jewish people invaded a territory that they did not occupy for centuries because they felt that "Moses told them they had right to this land", they have to understand that there will be very serious and dire consequences ... that I don't feel the United States has any business being a part of.

What is clear is that Israel has greatly (and illegally) expanded its territory since what was originally decreed by the British Mandate. Then, they cry foul when attacked.

The reason Israel was founded has nothing to do with the Bible. It has to do with Jews being given a homeland that they desperately needed. Further more there never was a historical nation called Palestine. They were always under foreign rule by people such as the Ottomans and Jordanians. Plus there was always a strong Jewish presence in this land. Plus the Jews originally owned this land before they were ousted by the Arabs even though many remained. The only reason Palestine will not accept Israeli rule is because they are Jews.

The reason that they have expanded their territory is because they justly won it it war because the Palestinians will not accept their right to exist so they rightfully are occupying these people who wish them to be gone.

This video goes in to detail about this.


Again the US should be siding with the only free and secular country in the Middle East that respects gay rights. Not with people who cut gay people's faces off.

Yes, Israel is guilty of being the country with the most violations of United Nations human rights resolutions than any other country in the world. In recent years, Israeli Jews have taken it upon themselves to built illegal settlements outside the boundaries of Israel on Palestinian land. But of course, you won't hear about that in the mainstream media.


Yep, most Modern Jews descend from Jews who were kicked out of the "holy land" by Romans sometime around 70 AD. Many of these people eventually found their way into Europe and settled there. And yet, many centuries later, European Jews felt they had an entitlement claim to the lands of Palestine. Mind you, Jews weren't the only ethnic groups who resided in those lands in ancient times. But modern Jews feel that only they should have the privilege of living there. Preposterous.

The reason that Israel is so racked with supposed human rights violations is because the UN Human rights counsel has been high jacked by Muslims. They have Iran and Sudan on their supposed human rights counsel. They have Islamic nations there with apalling records of human rights and yet they focus on Israel.

Further more in actuality Jews have always had a presence in the Israel even when many of them were ousted by Romans and Arabs. However Arabs and Muslims live in peace in Israel and have more rights there then they do in the majority of Islamic nations. There are even Arab political parties. The reason that Palestine exists is simply because they will not accept Jewish rule. They accepted foreign Islamic rule but when it came to Jewish rule they refused.

[Telstra]

Bombs from the plane is dangerous.
Rockets from the ground is also dangerous.

[Mariatenebre]

So we are now saying that a country has full permission to invade other countries' territory, and we should look away as long as they are Gay Friendly?

Got it.

Zeno, this situation is so convoluted, however I will research what you say. Obviously, there is plenty of propaganda both sides spew and little details that both sides twist that it takes an enormous amount of focus to completely understand all of the facts in how things got to be how they are today.

However, I am having a difficult time taking up for Israel's original invasion and migration to the land we'll call "Palestine" when the Ottoman Empire controlled that land from 1453 to 1917. That would be similar to if Americans were outnumbered by Indians, and the entire Indian population declared war on the United States, insisting they had every right to this land.

Do you agree with the Zionist movement and the outcome of Arab-Israeli War? Keep in mind, I have no agenda here other than advocating the truth and what's right.

They have no right to this land. They are a miserable terrorist nation that is justly being whopped in war by the same people they wish to annihlate.

Next the comparison to the Native Americans is doubly foolish. There was a genocide on the Native Americans and Native Americans usually many times did not try to target innocent civilians. Many would have even have no problem living amongst the White Settlers. There are many Palestinians living in Israel so their numbers are not decreasing. Again as I mentioned Israel was given this land because they have a right to it and because they needed a homeland. There was no historical nation called Palestine, it was always ruled by foreigners such as the Ottomans and the Jordanians and it was only when they were under Jewish rule did they have a problem. However Palestinians live free in Israel and live better lives then they would in Muslim nations. Your map is bunk and was made by Pally Propagandists.

[Mariatenebre]

Some secular Jews in Israel support gay causes. But religious Jews? Forget about it. Israel is no different than many other countries where religion plays a strong role, in that homosexuality is considered an abomination.

Actually Jews in Israel are far more tolerant then Muslims. Hell there is even a gay pride parade in Israel annually

Such an interesting question.

One notes that in the first instance, the support for homo rights does not result in an existential threat for anyone else....voting for Obama because he supports gay rights was likely one of a number of reasons that he was the overwhelming favourite of homos.

The unwavering support of Isaeli occupation of all the territory that was once Palestine because they tolerate homosexuality does potentially come with the cost of complicity in creation of an existential threat of individuals and communities.

That creates more of a moral dilemma. Just because someone threatens my rights as a homo, does not necessarily mean that I want to see them and their families suffer or that I want them wiped from the face of the earth. You are not alone though, in wishing that very thing.

What to do. What to do.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the crisis will continue long after I am dead and like all other conquests, diasporas and winner take all occupations....the future will tell the tale as to how successful this 65 year old experiment will be.

In actuality Israel does not occupy all of Palestine. Plus Israel has only taken lands that they won in war with the Palestinians who want them dead. It is suicidal to let your enemy have land. Palestine could have peace from the beginning and a state of their own but instead they want the eradication of Israel and all Jews.

As for people who wish me dead. Those who wish me dead I wish the same on them. To do anything is is suicide. We should never support the people who wish us dead. If you were a gay person in Palestine then you would have to go to Israel. The Palestinians who support terror deserve to suffer.

I'm not an idiot buddy. Take a look at that map. There are only three options available... Either the occupants of that land were forcibly evacuated a la pogroms, or they were killed a la Holocaust, or they are rounded up and crunched into that little bit of land into camps, with meager existences, like the holocaust.

What's else? Self Deportation? IS that a policcy you agree with?



Don;t tell me what proof is needed, pal. There's the map. Tell me where the people went. To disneyland?

I am not saying that the Palestinians have clean hands, what I am saying is I respect the Israelis enough to expect them to TRY to have cleaner hands.

They haven't in decades and as soon as we get past the childish antics of Nah ah and he hit me first, the sooner a solution will be found.

YOU tell me what that maps means for the people that USED to live there? What are the options, Mr Logic? Are you so wed to the concept of being an apologist that you can't see the forest through the trees.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2159085.html

Explain to me why these numbers make sense. explain to me how this is a measured response that WONT start a war in which thousands of Israelis are killed?

You have to have your head examined if you think supporting this war is good for Israel.

First of all they have not done a genocide on these people. Israel is full of Palestinians living in the country who are treated far better then in Palestine. Plus as another person has said this map is bunk.

[Kulindahr]

Explain to me why these numbers make sense. explain to me how this is a measured response that WONT start a war in which thousands of Israelis are killed?

You have to have your head examined if you think supporting this war is good for Israel.

The numbers don't tell the whole story. Hamas' rockets aren't exactly targeted, and there's no telling where they'll hit -- but the Israelis have gotten good at paying attention to warnings so they can get out of the way. OTOH, even though Israel's responses are well targeted, Hamas insists on using its population as hostages, putting their supply and command and other legitimate targets where there are lots of people.

So it's to be expected the numbers will be lopsided. I have no way of doing an analysis to decide if they should be this lopsided, but then there's the question of what the Israelis should do -- just sit tight and thus encourage Hamas' barbarism? To put it another way, how does a modern society respond to seventh-century tactics?

[Kulindahr]

Egypt is supplying them. They have tunnels large enough to drive vehicles into the area, I heard on NPR. Astounding that we are putting up with that.

I've wondered about that. My dad's solution was creative: send in UN troops to occupy the area, then use underground nukes to turn the border zone into gravel, then excavate it all and leave a border defined by a trench half a kilometer wide, a quarter kilometer deep, running clear to Israeli territory. The idea: let them try to tunnel underwater.

My concept was to keep track, and every time a new tunnel was found, fill it with concrete.

Why the hell does the Israeli army target children instead of bombing these tunnels? that's one degree of stank below the shittiness of the people that dug them in the first place.

Probably something about explosion debris flying into Egypt.

[Kulindahr]

And that map before is biased BS. Israel was attacked FIRST in 1967 by other Arab countries.

There is serious evidence to the contrary. The best guesstimate is that they invoked the Bush Doctrine before Bush.

[nafhoosier]

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...sis-rages?lite

I'm guessing some people will call this legitimate Palestinian resistance?

[rareboy]

Some people might.

Probably no one who posts here.

Some people thought this was legitimate too.

Baruch Goldstein was an Israeli responsible for the 1994 massacre in Hebron, in which he shot and killed 29 and wounded another 125 Muslim worshipers inside the Ibrahimi Mosque. Goldstein was a supporter of Kach, an Israeli political party that advocated the expulsion of Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Territories.


But probably no one who posts here.

We get it. Hamas are terrorists. No one is disputing this.

And no one with an iota of sense believes that Gaza won't eventually be re-occupied and that any remnants of an autonomous Palestinian state will be wiped away forever. It is inevitable.

And so is the world at war.

[BostonPirate]

Some people might.

Probably no one who posts here.

Some people thought this was legitimate too.

Baruch Goldstein was an Israeli responsible for the 1994 massacre in Hebron, in which he shot and killed 29 and wounded another 125 Muslim worshipers inside the Ibrahimi Mosque. Goldstein was a supporter of Kach, an Israeli political party that advocated the expulsion of Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Territories.


But probably no one who posts here.

We get it. Hamas are terrorists. No one is disputing this.

And no one with an iota of sense believes that Gaza won't eventually be re-occupied and that any remnants of an autonomous Palestinian state will be wiped away forever. It is inevitable.

And so is the world at war.

It's a slow mo car accident that we've all agreed to just let happen.

[AngolaZee]

Recently there was another thread on CEP denouncing any gay person who did not vote for Obama -- the main reason was Obama's support of gay rights and the lack of support on the republican side.

I now ask how could any gay guy not support a country who is very liberal concerning gay rights and support a group of people who do not believe in your rights to exist to the point that they would kill you?

That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Simple, Obama doesn't build settlements in other people's land, Obama does not insist on America being called a Christian state. Would you support a racist, rapist or murderer just because he was pro-gay.NO So this argument you are trying to push above is stupid to say the least

[AngolaZee]

Besides it wasn't so much Obama's support for gays that garnered their support but the Republicans hatred of them

[AngolaZee]

Israel has every right to protect itself from terrorists but when it systematically steals land using settlements it loses the moral high ground. What started as a fight for survival against Islamist extremists now looks like a free for all land grab backed by military power. Forcible removal of people from their homes to make way for Jewish settlers is exactly what was happening in South Africa during Apartheid.

[JayHawk]

Ok...so then you put them in a nice tidy box and build a wall.... you even forcibly uproot your own settlers... and still the rockets fly towards you...

I do not think that you understand that the IDEA was a Palestinian State but now the REALITY is a proxy war. With neither side giving two shits about Palestinians...