Israel vs. Hamas: Again [MERGED]

[JayHawk]

I've got three comments.

Firstly, i support Israel, regardless of its building on 'palestinian' land. I support Israel because it aspires to be a peaceful and modern nation, unlike some in the region.

Secondly, i think the issue of the 'crime' of occupying palestinian land is somewhat redundant, since Palestine is'nt even recognised as a land. Essentially, the people of Gaza and the West Bank, are living within Israel. Palestine doesn't exist anymore. The palestinian leadership over the decades have gone consistently in the wrong direction to achieving an internationally recognised sovereign state. I honestly think its best if Gaza and the West Bank belonged to Israel, and that any Palestinian not happy about that should either move to an arab state, or accept that their lives are no worse off (in fact likely better) if Israel governs the land they occupy.

Lastly, i am quite shocked that Hamas have targetted Jerusalem. This is home to one of the most holy places within Islam, the Dome of the Rock. Should that accidently be destroyed....all hell basically.

Very Nicely put....

[MystikWizard]

So we are now saying that a country has full permission to invade other countries' territory, and we should look away as long as they are Gay Friendly?

Got it.

Zeno, this situation is so convoluted, however I will research what you say. Obviously, there is plenty of propaganda both sides spew and little details that both sides twist that it takes an enormous amount of focus to completely understand all of the facts in how things got to be how they are today.

However, I am having a difficult time taking up for Israel's original invasion and migration to the land we'll call "Palestine" when the Ottoman Empire controlled that land from 1453 to 1917. That would be similar to if Americans were outnumbered by Indians, and the entire Indian population declared war on the United States, insisting they had every right to this land.

Do you agree with the Zionist movement and the outcome of Arab-Israeli War? Keep in mind, I have no agenda here other than advocating the truth and what's right.

[mitchymo]

So we are now saying that a country has full permission to invade other countries' territory,

What country is being invaded? There is no country being invaded by Israel.
Its no good for the UN on one hand to issue resolutions which acknowlege Palestinian land, but then fail to recognise it as a soverign nation. Israel is breaking the resolutions, but its NOT invading any nation.
I'd like to know why the Palestinians have not got a soverign state yet, but i suspect that their lack of cooperative leadership, and the nonchalance of its neighbours not to be supportive to the ends of achieving that, but rather to attack Israel by-proxy, is why.

[MystikWizard]

Poor choice of words on my part. So let's simply remove the word country.

[nafhoosier]

So we are now saying that a country has full permission to invade other countries' territory, and we should look away as long as they are Gay Friendly?

In a way, yes.

I'm not giving it to Israel to invade anyone that they want, but their human rights record of their own citizens certainly makes me respect them as a country ten times more than say, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah (which basically is a country in and of itself), and Saudi Arabia that have horrible human rights record of their own people.

Israel takes care of its people and protects them, giving them almost complete rights that anyone deserves in a democracy.

Isn't that alone enough to make it more likable than Syria, which is currently slaughtering its own people?

[Kulindahr]

I am pro America, and what is best for us is to make sure that as few people on both sides die as possible.

The march to war comes so quickly for us Americans. Why do we have such a national blood lust?

That includes not just now, but for the future. If we "settle" this in the fashion Bush did, and leave it to simmer for the future, it's just going to keep coming back, most likely getting worse every time.

Iran is going to get nukes. They support Hamas. So if Hamas continues to exist, there will be nukes in their hands eventually. Hamas needs eliminating before than can happen.

Besides that, this was an act of war, under international law. Israel would be fully justified in actually invading and occupying, instead of merely trying to keep the peace. They would be fully justified in capturing every last Hamas member and supporter and putting them where they can do no further harm.

And to save lives, that's what needs to be done: eliminate the infection now.

[Kulindahr]

...
Secondly, i think the issue of the 'crime' of occupying palestinian land is somewhat redundant, since Palestine is'nt even recognised as a land. Essentially, the people of Gaza and the West Bank, are living within Israel. Palestine doesn't exist anymore. The palestinian leadership over the decades have gone consistently in the wrong direction to achieving an internationally recognised sovereign state. I honestly think its best if Gaza and the West Bank belonged to Israel, and that any Palestinian not happy about that should either move to an arab state, or accept that their lives are no worse off (in fact likely better) if Israel governs the land they occupy.

The one problem is that many of the settlements are literally built on the land of people who are just evicted, their land legally stolen -- no due process, no compensation, no choice.

That's theft, and it doesn't matter if Palestine is a nation or not.


BTW, I agree Israel should just annex Gaza and tell anyone not happy about it to leave. It's the import point for arms and more arms via smuggling from Egypt. But as for the West Bank, it's not so simple.

[Kulindahr]

So we are now saying that a country has full permission to invade other countries' territory, and we should look away as long as they are Gay Friendly?

Of course they have permission -- Hamas gave it to them. By accepting the status of being the government of Gaza, they elevated any violence by them to the status of an act of war. An act of war grants permission to the target to respond as is, in their judgment, necessary.

[MystikWizard]

After doing some research at this non-partisan site:
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org...esourceID=1118

My thoughts are to revert back to when the United Nations General Assembly voted in 1947 for the two state solution, which Israel agreed to. Since Britain essentially null and voided their British Mandate for Palestine and left it up to the U.N., I don't see how legally it should be viewed in any other fashion. The territories appear should have bee divided under U.N. Mandate follows:

Israeli control
Negev Desert
Portions of Galilee

Palestinian control
West Bank (currently occupied by Israel)
Gaza District (currently occupied by Israel)
Jaffa
Arav sectors of Galilee

UN trusteeship
Jerusalem

Therefore, it appears that Israel needs to withdraw their settlements from the West Bank and Gaza District. And even though the Palestinians did not agree with the U.N. Mandate and launched the Arab-Israeli War in spite of it, this is something they are going to have to agree to, as well, or else face the wrath of the international community.

Both sides need to compromise and return territories to the original U.N. mandate, in my view.

[mitchymo]

Both sides need to compromise and return territories to the original U.N. mandate, in my view.

That would be an idea. It of course requires the UN to actually DO something about it. I honestly don't think that the UN cares all that much. They probably think it best if there was ONE country occupying the land, and not one country plus one segmented territory.

[Kulindahr]

That would be an idea. It of course requires the UN to actually DO something about it. I honestly don't think that the UN cares all that much. They probably think it best if there was ONE country occupying the land, and not one country plus one segmented territory.

The UN doesn't think, it pursues political agendas. Many nations vote against Israel as knee-jerk reactions because the U.S. supports Israel, and no other reason. Others vote against Israel because antiSemitism thrives in many places across the world. And some vote against Israel because genocide seems to them an obvious solution, since they use it themselves in internal politics.

[MystikWizard]

BTW, as far as the U.N. Mandate of 1947 I was referencing above, that would reflect the territory split in the second map I showed earlier.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...tellstory.html



I know this was accused of being Palestinian propaganda by Zeno ... but I don't see how it is based on the non-partisan site I referenced:
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org...esourceID=1118

.... along with the U.N. Mandate of 1947, and this map.

That is not to say I have issues with the recent rocket attacks from Hamas-controlled Gaza into Israel, however Hamas is indicating that it is an Islamist extremist group that is responsible. My position is that Hamas is responsible for controlling these extremists in the territory they control.

[JockBoy87]

While alien to us, eastern culture values honor over life.

[Kulindahr]

While alien to us, eastern culture values honor over life.

So they should have no problem if Israel attacked and killed them all for honor?

[JockBoy87]

So they should have no problem if Israel attacked and killed them all for honor?

That's the idea.

Martyrdom is a rather high honor.

Parents of suicide bombers have high social status in Palestine.

Do you think Hamas really believes it can achieve any realistic goal with firing rockets on Tel Aviv? They know full well what the response is going to be...

[Kulindahr]

That's the idea.

Martyrdom is a rather high honor.

Parents of suicide bombers have high social status in Palestine.

So if they became martyrs, they'd have even higher status, right?

[JockBoy87]

So if they became martyrs, they'd have even higher status, right?

Correct...

[Kulindahr]

Correct...

That line would suggest that the IDF should begin at one end of Gaza and go to the other, killing everyone and leveling everything.

It's a good thing the Israelis don't think like Muslims/Arabs.

[JockBoy87]

That line would suggest that the IDF should begin at one end of Gaza and go to the other, killing everyone and leveling everything.

It's a good thing the Israelis don't think like Muslims/Arabs.

Of what suicide bombers do or where they get their ideas from, we are ignorant. Same goes for provocateurs.

[nafhoosier]

That is not to say I have issues with the recent rocket attacks from Hamas-controlled Gaza into Israel, however Hamas is indicating that it is an Islamist extremist group that is responsible. My position is that Hamas is responsible for controlling these extremists in the territory they control.

Not to sound like a dick, but your statement is somewhat so reasonable and obvious that it barely borderlines a statement or position at all.

What you're basically saying in this statement is identical to saying "cops in Chicago are responsible for controlling the gangs and murderers in the city that they control."

Of course they are!

But what about when those gangs and murders cross city lines? State authorities get involved. State lines? Federal authorities can get involved. Country lines? ................

If a terrorist group from another country constantly bombards its neighbors with rockets, and the government from which the terrorists reside REFUSE or are unwilling to stop the violence, it is natural for the other country to take the matters into its own hands.

That's not to say that Israel should level Gaza City and kill all of its civilians (I am critical of many of its tactics) but I completely support them bombing targeted terrorist locations and yes, I support them bombing Hamas headquarters, a haven of terrorists.

[rareboy]

The map tells the tale.

Typically, the British and the UN fucked up in the partition of Palestine....

Of course this was largely based on the British and other imperial powers fucking up the partition of the Ottoman Empire in the first place.

Both were medieval solutions that didn't really anticipate the realities of the modern world.

Israel will never cede territory.

The struggle for them will continue until all Palestinians are gone, or reduced to living in a ghetto in the different cities. And then the real war will begin.

[MystikWizard]

Not to sound like a dick, but your statement is somewhat so reasonable and obvious that it barely borderlines a statement or position at all.

What you're basically saying in this statement is identical to saying "cops in Chicago are responsible for controlling the gangs and murderers in the city that they control."

Of course they are!

But what about when those gangs and murders cross city lines? State authorities get involved. State lines? Federal authorities can get involved. Country lines? ................

If a terrorist group from another country constantly bombards its neighbors with rockets, and the government from which the terrorists reside REFUSE or are unwilling to stop the violence, it is natural for the other country to take the matters into its own hands.

That's not to say that Israel should level Gaza City and kill all of its civilians (I am critical of many of its tactics) but I completely support them bombing targeted terrorist locations and yes, I support them bombing Hamas headquarters, a haven of terrorists.

Ok, I thought I was being clear, but I am happy to clarify.

I believe Israel has a right to defend itself. Granted if these were Islamic extremists, and not Hamas that was responsible, then Israel still has a right to attack Gaza and in my view, knock out strategic targets, to send Hamas the message that they are responsible for controlling the people that live within the territory that they are permitted to occupy.

I am defending Israel's response in this case.

On a somewhat semi-related note pertaining to Gaza, I don't defend any Israeli settlements that may be in Gaza, though. Based on the 1947 map, this should be 100% Palestinian territory.

Regardless, these rockets came from Gaza which is controlled by Hamas. And it was an action uncalled for on the part of these "Islamic extremists".

[MystikWizard]

The map tells the tale.

Typically, the British and the UN fucked up in the partition of Palestine....

Of course this was largely based on the British and other imperial powers fucking up the partition of the Ottoman Empire in the first place.

Both were medieval solutions that didn't really anticipate the realities of the modern world.

Israel will never cede territory.

The struggle for them will continue until all Palestinians are gone, or reduced to living in a ghetto in the different cities. And then the real war will begin.

I can understand why the British rescinded their mandate and gave control to the U.N. over this (most likely because they saw the writing on the wall), but it was still a chickenshit move on their part. They were the ones that were awarded the territory and should have followed through with it.

[Telstra]

BTW, as far as the U.N. Mandate of 1947 I was referencing above, that would reflect the territory split in the second map I showed earlier.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...tellstory.html



I know this was accused of being Palestinian propaganda by Zeno ... but I don't see how it is based on the non-partisan site I referenced:
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org...esourceID=1118

.... along with the U.N. Mandate of 1947, and this map.

That is not to say I have issues with the recent rocket attacks from Hamas-controlled Gaza into Israel, however Hamas is indicating that it is an Islamist extremist group that is responsible. My position is that Hamas is responsible for controlling these extremists in the territory they control.

Such a crazy map before the UN partition or after the UN partition. Both maps are crazy.
I wonder what would happened now if the UN did not partition the land.

[rareboy]

I can understand why the British rescinded their mandate and gave control to the U.N. over this (most likely because they saw the writing on the wall), but it was still a chickenshit move on their part. They were the ones that were awarded the territory and should have followed through with it.

As you note, Britain saw the writing on the wall. By 1946, economically savaged by the war, and having come to terms with the fact that the sun had set on the Empire....what choice did Britain have? Neither the Palestinians or the Israeli's really wanted an imperial power controlling their post war destiny.....and for whatever reason, I guess that there was a time when the world nations thought of the UN as the solution to the medieval approach that had ultimately resulted in the Second World War......

[Kulindahr]

Of what suicide bombers do or where they get their ideas from, we are ignorant. Same goes for provocateurs.

Except you already told us where they get their ideas -- from their culture.

[Kulindahr]

If a terrorist group from another country constantly bombards its neighbors with rockets, and the government from which the terrorists reside REFUSE or are unwilling to stop the violence, it is natural for the other country to take the matters into its own hands.

In this instance the terrorists ARE the government.

[Kulindahr]

Ok, I thought I was being clear, but I am happy to clarify.

I believe Israel has a right to defend itself. Granted if these were Islamic extremists, and not Hamas that was responsible, then Israel still has a right to attack Gaza and in my view, knock out strategic targets, to send Hamas the message that they are responsible for controlling the people that live within the territory that they are permitted to occupy.

I am defending Israel's response in this case.

On a somewhat semi-related note pertaining to Gaza, I don't defend any Israeli settlements that may be in Gaza, though. Based on the 1947 map, this should be 100% Palestinian territory.

Regardless, these rockets came from Gaza which is controlled by Hamas. And it was an action uncalled for on the part of these "Islamic extremists".

I read it's been hundreds of rockets now. I don't see how that can be anyone but Hamas.

After all, they're the ones over there with binders full of missiles.

[Kulindahr]

As you note, Britain saw the writing on the wall. By 1946, economically savaged by the war, and having come to terms with the fact that the sun had set on the Empire....what choice did Britain have? Neither the Palestinians or the Israeli's really wanted an imperial power controlling their post war destiny.....and for whatever reason, I guess that there was a time when the world nations thought of the UN as the solution to the medieval approach that had ultimately resulted in the Second World War......

They could have auctioned the land, by the square kilometer....

Wouldn't that be the Romney/Bain solution?

[JockBoy87]

Except you already told us where they get their ideas -- from their culture.

And by extension their culture.

Which is why it is so bewildering.

Arabs were once at the cutting edge of medicine, astronomy, and chemistry. To have fallen so far...

[BostonPirate]

I think there are failings on both sides here.

So the issue is really the extent to which Israel ought to respond. I am sad to say that this is beginning to look a bit genocidal. IF the Israeli government doesn't understand the immorality of that, then they are a doomed nation. If they think that a holocaust can only happen to the Jews and that because it did they are free to do so to another people?

The UN won't go for it, and the USA won't stand in the way.

Israel needs to measure it's response to the threat. Right now they are doing that, but if there is a troop movement into the Gaza Strip, they are going to set off a series of events that may lead to a region wide war.

[JockBoy87]

I think there are failings on both sides here.

So the issue is really the extent to which Israel ought to respond. I am sad to say that this is beginning to look a bit genocidal. IF the Israeli government doesn't understand the immorality of that, then they are a doomed nation. If they think that a holocaust can only happen to the Jews and that because it did they are free to do so to another people?

The UN won't go for it, and the USA won't stand in the way.

Israel needs to measure it's response to the threat. Right now they are doing that, but if there is a troop movement into the Gaza Strip, they are going to set off a series of events that may lead to a region wide war.

Please explain in further detail exactly how Israel intends or is showing an elimination of the Palestinian ethnicity.

[BostonPirate]

Please explain in further detail exactly how Israel intends an elimination of the Palestinian ethnicity.

The same way it has been for the last fifty years.

[JockBoy87]

The same way it has been for the last fifty years.

I'm afraid a discussion of territorial sovereignty does not impress the circumstances of genocide for me.

Jews never controlled the government or sovereign territory of any European state or portions of states before or since the Holocaust.

[BostonPirate]

I'm afraid a discussion of territorial sovereignty does not impress the circumstances of genocide for me.

Jews never controlled the government or sovereign territory of any European state or portions of states before or since the Holocaust.

How does that change the real fact that a people are being systematically anhialated. I think I will leave it up to god to decide whether they deserve it or not, myself. But what seems clear to me, is Israel, Egypt and Iran seem intent on turning the mideast into a sea of radioactive glass.

Well if that's what they plan, it happens to fuck up the rest of the planet for all of us.

I am tired of hearing excuses for and from both sides of this argument. If you want war you have war. If you want peace you ahve peace. If these nations want to kill each other then I say that enough American blood has been spent on the promise that THIS time, it would make all parties over there stop fighting.

It's not going to happen, and I am all for Letting the whole lot of them just go at it. If it affects the rest of us? If these wars continue to cause global dissension, then what? We all just sit around with our dicks in our hands waiting for the toxic skies to fall?

Where is the responsibility to the rest of the planet, that got together as the UN and gave Israel the land in the first place? Does anyone feel responsible for acting as a global power for peace over there? If not, then I say cut the purse strings to the whole lot.. the palestinians, the Egyptians and the Israelis.

Americans are war weary. Mideasterners seem to prefer it as a way of life.

[Telstra]

.
Very good propaganda video somewhat connected ... sort of blaming everyone but themselves.

[Telstra]

"Israel wants to rule the world" This is just false.

[Telstra]

.
very good interview

[Telstra]

.
What you guys think of this ?

[Telstra]

^
Peace coming soon according to this man because there are 50% of Arabs living in Israel proper ?

[Kulindahr]

If you want war you have war. If you want peace you ahve peace.

It only takes the wishes of one to have war. It takes two to have peace.

[BostonPirate]

It only takes the wishes of one to have war. It takes two to have peace.

yes it does. let me repeat that...

IT TAKES TWO TO HAVE PEACE.

How about we hold them both responsible for it?

[Kulindahr]

.
Very good propaganda video somewhat connected ... sort of blaming everyone but themselves.

Shallow prattlings of a shallow man.

[Kulindahr]

"Israel wants to rule the world" This is just false.

This guy is an embarrassment to the species.

[Kulindahr]

.
What you guys think of this ?

Darned good.

But he's missing one thing: if his vision of peace comes to pass, the terrorist 'militias' will come in and slaughter everyone not ready to shoot back. To them, anyone friendly with a Jew needs to be promptly sent to hell.

- - - Updated - - -

yes it does. let me repeat that...

IT TAKES TWO TO HAVE PEACE.

How about we hold them both responsible for it?

One already wants peace.

[JockBoy87]

How does that change the real fact that a people are being systematically anhialated.

I see absolutely zero evidence of this.

Surely you can do better if you are right.

[BostonPirate]

One already wants peace.

It's hard to tell what with all those explosions and air assaults. If that's what it means to want peace, I hope mexico never wants it with America.

[BostonPirate]

I see absolutely zero evidence of this.

Surely you can do better if you are right.

Let me put in the rest of what I said first.....

I think I will leave it up to god to decide whether they deserve it or not, myself. But what seems clear to me, is Israel, Egypt and Iran seem intent on turning the mideast into a sea of radioactive glass.

Well if that's what they plan, it happens to fuck up the rest of the planet for all of us.

I am tired of hearing excuses for and from both sides of this argument. If you want war you have war. If you want peace you ahve peace. If these nations want to kill each other then I say that enough American blood has been spent on the promise that THIS time, it would make all parties over there stop fighting.

It's not going to happen, and I am all for Letting the whole lot of them just go at it. If it affects the rest of us? If these wars continue to cause global dissension, then what? We all just sit around with our dicks in our hands waiting for the toxic skies to fall?

Where is the responsibility to the rest of the planet, that got together as the UN and gave Israel the land in the first place? Does anyone feel responsible for acting as a global power for peace over there? If not, then I say cut the purse strings to the whole lot.. the palestinians, the Egyptians and the Israelis.

Americans are war weary. Mideasterners seem to prefer it as a way of life.

proof ?

There is none needed at this point. It's clear that you aren't going to really be open to seeing the wrongs of both sides of this problem. If you think that the extermination of the pallestinians has not been underway for the past few decades, then you are married to an ideology four thousand years old, and you aren't really going to change.

just consider that the people on the other side? They are human beings just like the Israelis are. If they had a bit of human dignity given to them by the Israelis, it would go a long way.

Equally, I find it hard to trust Palestine, until they agree that Israel has a right to exist.

Just keep the nukes and the poison gas in the holy land and out of america. The only way this will obviously end is the way the south american wars ended four thousand years ago.... Destruction of all parties involved.

As far as I am concerned, the world would be a safer place if there were NO pallestinians and NO Israelis in it. Is that really what you guys are going after?

[Telstra]

Darned good.

But he's missing one thing: if his vision of peace comes to pass, the terrorist 'militias' will come in and slaughter everyone not ready to shoot back. To them, anyone friendly with a Jew needs to be promptly sent to hell.

- - - Updated - - -



One already wants peace.

Peace has to start somewhere.
And the extremists will be fade away like the IRA.

[JockBoy87]

proof ?

There is none needed at this point.

Because you have none to offer.

If you level an accusation, you better have evidence to back it up, sorry. You got nothing.

It's clear that you aren't going to really be open to seeing the wrongs of both sides of this problem.

You're quite wrong about that.

I am open to reasoned discussion, not conspiracy theories.

If you think that the extermination of the pallestinians has not been underway for the past few decades, then you are married to an ideology four thousand years old, and you aren't really going to change.

The Palestinian population has grown phenomenally over the last 60 years.

just consider that the people on the other side? They are human beings just like the Israelis are. If they had a bit of human dignity given to them by the Israelis, it would go a long way.

I think a bit of education should follow some hot air, BP.

Gazans had a much better life in the 1970s before the terrorism started.

As far as I am concerned, the world would be a safer place if there were NO pallestinians and NO Israelis in it. Is that really what you guys are going after?

The Israeli contributions to society are immense.

For example, the country has the distinction for publishing the highest number of scientific papers per person.