NY Times: There are over 3 Times as Many Gay Men from 18-29 than there are from 65 and Up

[Lostlover]

Absolutely shameless.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/16/us...tory.html?_r=0

These people are self-identified as gay. 1.9% of those 65 and over identified as being gay while 6.4% of people 18 to 29 years old identified as gay.

And, no, these people weren't question in the 1960's about their sexuality, when they were in their 20's. This poll was done last week. Even in their 60's, they're in total denial to themselves which is their right, but when you remind yourself that they're still voting against gays, you have to shake your head at the BS.

This reminds me of Larry Craig who was caught playing footsies in a Minnesota airport bathroom stall with an undercover cop. The first thing he said, even before denying the allegations, was that he is NOT gay. He just wanted to make that clear. He's NOT gay. (My younger straight brother who was a teenager at the time said, rightfully, "This is not about being gay!")

So, what do people think of this finding? A full 70% of gays died before reaching 65-years-old?

[GiancarloC]

A lot of it has to do with generational differences and accepting oneself. As far as the figure regarding 4.5% of gay men not reaching 65... well, there has to be improvements done in health care. In addition, with improvements and more understanding gay men will live longer more healthy lives. The suicide rate is also still disturbingly high. One can thank the social conservatives for the amount of hatred and disdain towards the LGBT community.

[bankside]

No, it just looks like the closet is old.

[TX-Beau]

Of course, had one of us written that it would read:

"...There are over 3 Times as Many Gay Men from 18-29 out than there are from 65 and Up..."

[justdra]

I agree with TX, OUT is the operative word. There are still some gay men, who by peer pressure, etc, who got married before being gay was not accepted, let alone talked about in some places. They did what was expected, either for fear of losing their family, or being kicked out of the will, and spent their lives either suppressing their feelings or cheating on their wives. In another 20 years, those numbers will go up.

[Kyanimal]

Those of us who are over 60 (which I NEVER thought I would be!), have lived through Very different Times, and Experiences, than those who have been Lucky enough to have been born later.

And, that can account for the lower percentage rate of "Oldies" WILLING to Admit that they're Gay!

That said, though I KNEW, I didn't admit, even to myself, that I was Gay until I hit my 30s! The Social pressure THEN was much Higher than it is NOW! Which is actually a "Good Thing" in the sense of how much Social Progress has been made to date!

What the Rebublican'ts don't seem to realize is, the "Gay" demographic is continually growing! The "Ol' Boys Club" is being phased out! And, it's about damned time!

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

[gingentleman]

There are a lot fewer men in my age group (I am 51), because the AIDS epidemic wiped out vast numbers of us in the 80s and 90s.

[desertboi]

Asothers have already mentioned, I think that a lot of people never find their way out of the closet. I guess I should speak about that because I'm in the process of coming out but that's for another thread. I'm in my 20s and I think my generation, gay or straight, is more accepting of homosexuality than my parents generation. It's definitely a cultural thing. Plus, I think a lot more guys are gay or bi than what they let on...

[ChickenGuy]

LOL! When I first read your thread title I seriously thought you meant:

'NY Times: There are over 3 Times as Many Gay Men from 18th-29th St. than there are from 65th St. and Up'





Although looking on the map, I see that area is in Chelsea, by Greenwich Village, so maybe I was right.

[MisterB]

There are a lot fewer men in my age group (I am 51), because the AIDS epidemic wiped out vast numbers of us in the 80s and 90s.

Ding ding ding--we have a winner.

I can't begin to tell you how many wonderful friends I lost over the past 30+ years to AIDS.

I wonder how many of them would still be alive if the Republican's saint Reagan had acknowledged the disease, and put necessary resources into the fight.

Thank goodness for folks like Anthony Fauci, et al.

[chance1]

I guess one person's "shameless" is another's "awesome"

Your default to your conclusion is shameless

[palbert]

.... So, what do people think of this finding? A full 4.5% of gays died before reaching 65-years-old?

Entirely possible. I know that of my gay social group when I was in my 20's and 30's only 2 0f us survived without AIDS. The others are dead.

Don't underestimate its toll.

[T-Rexx]

They're just making more gays these days.

[White Eagle]

There are a lot fewer men in my age group (I am 51), because the AIDS epidemic wiped out vast numbers of us in the 80s and 90s.

I was going to say the same thing. I'm 69 and I lost a huge amount of friends from AIDS.

[rareboy]

The polling methodologies for these types of sexual identity studies is so flawed as to be worthless.

[Lostlover]

A lot of it has to do with generational differences and accepting oneself. As far as the figure regarding 4.5% of gay men not reaching 65... well, there has to be improvements done in health care. In addition, with improvements and more understanding gay men will live longer more healthy lives. The suicide rate is also still disturbingly high. One can thank the social conservatives for the amount of hatred and disdain towards the LGBT community.

A lot of the 4.5% is still, living living in denial, and part of the bigotry (through voting).

I truly don't believe a high suicide rate and improvements in health care make up even a third of this 4.5% difference.

[Telstra]

.
I thought it is 10% of gays in general.

[Lostlover]

Those of us who are over 60 (which I NEVER thought I would be!), have lived through Very different Times, and Experiences, than those who have been Lucky enough to have been born later.

And, that can account for the lower percentage rate of "Oldies" WILLING to Admit that they're Gay!

That said, though I KNEW, I didn't admit, even to myself, that I was Gay until I hit my 30s! The Social pressure THEN was much Higher than it is NOW! Which is actually a "Good Thing" in the sense of how much Social Progress has been made to date!

What the Rebublican'ts don't seem to realize is, the "Gay" demographic is continually growing! The "Ol' Boys Club" is being phased out! And, it's about damned time!

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

And you have balls.

I read this statistical and think, "Get the fuck outta here."

And then I hear GOP garbage about legitimate rape and think that there's an element that would say that as society has gone downhill (they love to complain about what holds for the next generations), the people have gotten gayer. I guess it's hormones in the chicken making people gayer.

[Kyanimal]

As I've heard it said ... it takes Balls to be a Faerie!

[eastofeden]

Entirely possible. I know that of my gay social group when I was in my 20's and 30's only 2 0f us survived without AIDS. The others are dead.

Don't underestimate its toll.

Very True. I am 55 and I have a photo of me at my 21st birthday party with my friends...there are 23 of us in the photo. I have been openly gay since I was a sophomore in HS. The last one in the photo died in 1996. I am the only one left.

I worked as a bartender in a gay bar from the day after I turned 21 and I watched AIDS unfold up close...the death toll was horrifying. That is why there aren't many over 65s...no doubt about it.

[BostonPirate]

over 600,000 people have died in the US as a result of HIV, and 60 percent are gay right now, which is substantially lower than the previous years, which were in the 70 to 80 percent range.

That means that 300,000 to 400,000 gay men of the age group you are dissing as not voting, are in fact headstones.

Dead.

If you want them to vote, LostLover, you're going to have a long wait.

Let's talk about how pathetic it is to not know basic gay history while you are admonishing fellow members of the gay community, how about that.

Kid I avoid you like the plague because I know you hold a grudge like a starving dog with a bone, but this time, I am going to have to risk the incessant sniping for the next month and just say outright, that you are so off base on this topic that it offends thinking people

[Laufey]

It seems like the young guys coming out now are twice as many as when I did it 10 years ago. Everybody seems to do it before turning 20.

Sucks that I'm not into young guys.

[Lostlover]

It seems like the young guys coming out now are twice as many as when I did it 10 years ago. Everybody seems to do it before turning 20.

Sucks that I'm not into young guys.

The truth of this matter is that this really isn't about coming out gay IN A POLL. No poll person will out someone. The question is how people see themselves. Even when you consider mental health issues, like suicide, and chronic illnesses, like HIV and AIDS, the 4.5% deficit in gay older people can't be explained away so simply.

Now if you said something like 65-year-olds married with kids, who are gay, choosing to identify as straight because they're living a straight person's life, it's hard to refute this; it surely happens.

But to put up a smokescreen, that's anecdotal at best, for a disappearing 70% of the gay population by age 65, trivializes HIV/AIDS since it gives this "disappearing group" an alibi when a lot of them are alive and well. (It's a one-in-a-million probability that Larry Craig exists and the many closeted, gay clergymen we hear about. *pure sadcasm*)

Some of the closeted men and women that answer these exit polls see being gay as more troublesome than soliciting sex in public like Larry Craig whose arrest was an afterthought when he tried to salvage his career (or what he thought was left of it), by first denying he was gay before answering the allegations in a news conference.

The point of these numbers is that people are still closeted and in denial, while most likely voting against gay rights based on voting patterns by age.

But I will shake my head at the nonsense above. Coming up short trying to explain away their non-existence with shoddy math only gives them cover. There are many more Larry Craigs out there.

I was just reading NY Times, smelled bullshit with the data, and reported it.

[BostonPirate]

The truth of this matter is that this really isn't about coming out gay IN A POLL. No poll person will out someone. The question is how people see themselves. Even when you consider mental health issues, like suicide and chronic illnesses, like HIV and AIDS, the 4.5% deficit in gay older people can't be explained away so simply.

Now if you said something like 65-year-olds married with kids, who are gay, choosing to identify as straight because they're living a straight person's life, it's hard to refute this; it surely happens.

But to put up a smokescreen, that's anecdotal at best, for a disappearing 70% of the gay population by age 65, trivializes HIV/AIDS since it gives this "disappearing group" an alibi when a lot of them are alive and well. (It's a one-in-a-million probability that Larry Craig exists and the many closeted, gay clergymen we hear about. *pure sadcasm*)

Some of the closeted men and women that answer these exit polls see being gay as more troublesome than soliciting sex in public like Larry Craig whose arrest was an afterthought when he tried to salvage his career (or what he thought was left of it), by first denying he was gay before answering the allegations in a news conference.

The point of these numbers is that people are still closeted and in denial, while most likely voting against gay rights based on voting patterns by age.

But I will shake my head at the nonsense above. Coming up short trying to explain away their non-existence with shoddy math only gives them cover. There are many more Larry Craigs out there.

No

It's actually because about a half million gay men died in the eighties.

But you go on and make shit up as you go, champ.

[maxpowr9]

My first reaction was AIDS in the 80s and I didn't want to be the one to bring it up but it is pretty self evident.

[Lostlover]

No

It's actually because about a half million gay men died in the eighties.

But you go on and make shit up as you go, champ.

I'll give you half a million. No. I'll give you one million gay people dyinh of HIV/AIDS in the 80's. I'll chop off 115 million people from our current population and even set the gay population to 1% of Americans, when it ranges from about 5% to 10%. So, only 50% of gays survived the 80's. (1 million HIV/AIDS deaths / 1% of the 200 million population -- 2 million gays in all I gave you.) That's still lower than the 70% deficit of the 65-and-overs compared to the 18- to 29-year-olds (which is also a smaller group, I would imagine, due to an 11 year age range and versus one that goes from 65- to 120-years-old).

Again here's the shoddy math folks:

1 million gay deaths from HIV/AIDS (doubling the death toll he pulled out his ass) / 2 million total gays (highly favorable to BP since I said there was only 1% gay in a population of just 200 million people which are both very low numbers I gave to give the BS excuses some life) and you get a 50% death rate of gay men and women. That's still lower than what the pollsters reported for The NY Times links. This shitty ass excuse is still off by 20%.

Making shit up for closeted gay men and women.

The point is: STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR CLOSETED PEOPLE.

[Lostlover]

It seems like the young guys coming out now are twice as many as when I did it 10 years ago. Everybody seems to do it before turning 20.

Sucks that I'm not into young guys.

You might be in Iceland, but remember in 40-something-years that there were gay men who explained away closeted gay men with HIV/AIDS. The gay population declined by 70% because of HIV/AIDS; other factors like acceptance of gays, suicide and bigotry played no role in older men and women denying being gay at 65 and older.

Hopefully when we're in our 60's there won't be apologists for weak-kneed people. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Apparently, HIV/AIDS skipped Larry Craig and countless clergymen we just happen to know about. 70% of every gay person died in the 80's, besides these high-profile examples, died.

[BostonPirate]

We don't have the right to decide for others when they need to be out or outed.

The gay community has dealt with this, and we have reached a detente, so to speak, with the idea that it is each persons right as an american to share with the world the personal details of their life, and their sex life.

Does it make a difference in voting?

I think that the individual's right to decide their own fate overides the community's needs in this instance. We all know the gruelling process of coming out, and we all know we do it when we are able and ready. Let's not make them bad people for exerting their freedom of expression, or freedom to not express certain things.

[Lestatnj]

MisterB & gingentleman are only too right. I'm 65, & I lost many friends from AIDS in the 80s & 90s. Few of them were closeted even before they took sick. It was my generation & older who rioted @ Stonewall, & marched in the first Gay Pride Parades. I came out in 73, my 1st parade was in 74.

One of the better marches was in 77 or 78, when Anita Bryant started her crap. 5th Ave was packed from end to end, & I don't think there were many closet cases there.

I began wrk in a hospital in N NJ in 73. Within 1 month I found that my supervisor & the director of my department were gay, & there were @ least 4 patient care workers (2 male nurses, 2 ward secretaries) 2 guys in the kitchen , 3 security guards who were gay. I went from thinking I was the only gay person in N NJ, to being part of a group. Only 1 was closeted, & he was a Nixon supporter too. He never came out, & sadly died from AIDS. The closet wasn't only stupid, but dangerous

I'm lucky to still have some friends, who, like me, made it thru the 80s, even without the help of St Reagan. None of my friends are closeted, all are above 50, all voted, NONE vote republican. I take all polls with a mine of salt, except if they are done by Nate Silver!

[chance1]

We don't have the right to decide for others when they need to be out or outed.

The gay community has dealt with this, and we have reached a detente, so to speak, with the idea that it is each persons right as an american to share with the world the personal details of their life, and their sex life.

Does it make a difference in voting?

I think that the individual's right to decide their own fate overides the community's needs in this instance. We all know the gruelling process of coming out, and we all know we do it when we are able and ready. Let's not make them bad people for exerting their freedom of expression, or freedom to not express certain things.

well said - and i completely agree

which makes me wonder why those who don't for obama ....... there should be "consequences" for that

please explain the what i see as disconnect

[Rolyo85]

Word. I think we need at least two generations more to be able to properly measure anything having to do with homosexuality. Right now polls mean nothing.

[Ninja108]

Sad to say but I think among the younger gays the true horror of AIDS in the 80's is slowly being forgotten.

[BostonPirate]

well said - and i completely agree

which makes me wonder why those who don't for obama ....... there should be "consequences" for that

please explain the what i see as disconnect

I think that there are people here participating in the JUB debate that are in the closet. I am sure of it, actually. I protect that person's right to be in the closet.

I do NOT support the idea or notion that the person in the closet does not need to vote according to their civil rights needs, and to the out members of the gay community they interact with, have sex with, and talk to, especially so that and because one day an environment can exist in the nation in which sexual preference no longer defines your civil rights.

Even if you are in the closet, if you vote against your own interests as a gay person, you are hurting everyone's chance to make things change. The ballot box is a solemn and private place, IMO. No one has to know how anyone voted or why. It is confidential unless the individual wants to say otherwise.

[Rolyo85]

Sad to say but I think among the younger gays the true horror of AIDS in the 80's is slowly being forgotten.

I don't see anything "sad" about it, if people forget the horror, as long as they remember the lessons, which I believe a bigger part of the gay community does than the one that doesn't. I mean, Europe has forgotten its Black Plague too, and it should.

Also, what BP said.

[bankside]

We don't have the right to decide for others when they need to be out or outed.

We do have the right in cases where a gay or bi hypocrite makes life miserable for other gays, or undermines their equality, etc.

[BostonPirate]

We do have the right in cases where a gay or bi hypocrite makes life miserable for other gays, or undermines their equality, etc.

You're talking about the senators and congressmen who have voted for and legislated for suppression of gay civil rights? I think if they are being duplicitous in their opinion versus their behavior, and they want to legislate morality, they ought to be outed.

I would also add though that I think these people that have done this, craig et al, are just as responsible for our progress as we are. They pointed out how fake the anti gay position usually is.

Of course, then there's that flamer Michelle Bachmann is married to that runs the de programming thing for teenage gays. One day one of those boys is going to come clean, if you'll pardon the pun, and the Bachmanns will enter stage right of american politics.

Outing someone who has no political position and is a citizen is wrong. Communicating with them and asking them to create a world in which they no longer have to hide by voting for the people that support the gay community, though is essential to getting them either out of the closet, or getting the closet out of america.

[chance1]

We do have the right in cases where a gay or bi hypocrite makes life miserable for other gays, or undermines their equality, etc.

how would u define make life miserable for other gays?

that's pretty wide open

an elected official who specifically supports legislation that is harmful well ....... i agree ...... they get what they deserve

but what's your definition

[bankside]

how would u define make life miserable for other gays?

that's pretty wide open

an elected official who specifically supports legislation that is harmful well ....... i agree ...... they get what they deserve

but what's your definition

Outright support for anti-equality legislation, or in favour of "reparative therapy." I agree with your definition and not those who say the act of being private is itself harmful.

[Kulindahr]

.
I thought it is 10% of gays in general.

That's been debunked years ago. It's been posted here often.

[hotatlboi]

Another misguided thread by LL just so he can display his ageism.

[Kulindahr]

Oh, yay -- another thread by Lost using a topic to engage in his campaign hating on older people. How exciting.


There are still places in the US where people get not just bullied, but killed for being gay. Thirty years ago, that wasn't at all uncommon. Add it to the AIDS toll. The suicide rate among gay kids had to have been higher as well, given the oppression -- add them to the toll. And the human mind is versatile enough it can eliminate any truth about itself, given time and persistence, so those who survived the horrors may actually not know they're gay -- they've edited it out so thoroughly there aren't even any memories. Together, that's easily enough to account for the difference.

So, LL, try being objective for once and stop using every other topic on the board to express your ageism. Lose the hate.

[Lostlover]

Oh, yay -- another thread by Lost using a topic to engage in his campaign hating on older people. How exciting.


There are still places in the US where people get not just bullied, but killed for being gay. Thirty years ago, that wasn't at all uncommon. Add it to the AIDS toll. The suicide rate among gay kids had to have been higher as well, given the oppression -- add them to the toll. And the human mind is versatile enough it can eliminate any truth about itself, given time and persistence, so those who survived the horrors may actually not know they're gay -- they've edited it out so thoroughly there aren't even any memories. Together, that's easily enough to account for the difference.

So, LL, try being objective for once and stop using every other topic on the board to express your ageism. Lose the hate.

There was no hate. The topic was about men still being closeted at 65-years-old and up.

It was fine until a poster came in and tried to talk about a mass extermination to explain such a shamelessly low number of gay men and women over a certain age.

There are things people bring up to stop discussions like racism, Nazis, 9/11 (look at Rudy Giuliani), and HIV/AIDS. I'm still gonna talk about this. HIV/AIDS didn't killed off 70% of a group. BP's comments don't even pass the sniff test. Twenty-somethings, usually the most sexually active age group, in the 80's, at the peak of the epidemic, would be fifty-somethings now. So, they'd still be too young to even be in that 70% drop.

Smells like bullshit.

Lastly, quote me anything I said that was hateful or are you using words to stop debates?

(PS: I'm not denying anything you said. I take the all of the above approach as well as a lot of closeted gay men and women to explain this drop. A certain poster, who doesn't like debates, and acts out of emotions, tried to stop it with the bullshit. I ain't buying it. Take that crap somewhere else.)

[Lostlover]

The point of this thread which most got is that there's NO WAY IN HELL that there are less than 2 gay men and women in a group of 100 65-year-olds and up.

NO WAY!

And HIV/AIDS didn't drop that number done to less than 2% gay in that population. Ain't buying it.

Please try to focus.

[bankside]

People who are 65 now do not forget a lifetime of pious christian oppression, nor do they heal from a lifetime of psychological scarring, because Washington votes for equal marriage and Elton John clicks the heels of his ruby slippers together three times.

Some of them are not hiding in the closet like a young man. They are not aware the world exists outside the closet. Live your life locked in a dark room by your wicked stepmother, and then go try to read a book in the light of day.

[johaninsc]

Lastly, quote me anything I said that was hateful...

all anyone has to do is make a quick search of your post history


...plenty of hate there

[-Callum-]

Errr, before I even entered the thread I immediately thought of HIV/AIDS and modern social acceptance of LGBT people.

The poll is not noteworthy because it doesn't acknowledge absolute truths.

[chance1]

Outright support for anti-equality legislation, or in favour of "reparative therapy." I agree with your definition and not those who say the act of being private is itself harmful.

Cool

I agree

[xseeker69]

Well, I'm 49 and not sure if I'm included with the 'old ones'. I was twenty-something in the eighties but not very active. That probably saved my life for I was pretty goofy in that decade. I vote for everything that is gay if I can. I'm pretty liberal and usually vote democrat. I'd rather choke than vote republican.

[BostonPirate]

Lost Lover seems to think that only twenty year olds have sex.

All age groups were affected by the HIV epidemic, and the older ones that were not as strong died. There were people in their forties and fifties, who were part of the era the book "and the band played on" refers to.

The New York bath houses of the late seventies, where men of all age participated, were the breeding grounds for the HIV epidemic in america.

To assume that only twenty year olds were having sex in the eighties is rather foolish.

[Kulindahr]

There was no hate. The topic was about men still being closeted at 65-years-old and up.

No, it's hate. That you can't see it is sad. Over and over you start threads where you leap to conclusions so you can hate on older people.

That you still insist, after reading the discussion here, that it's just these evil closeted old men that are the problem, shows it's just hate.