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  1. #1
    mitchymo
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    Candles for heat

    Now that the UK is moving firmly into its colder months, the cost of electric exceeds my affordability once again. Unless the temp hits below Oc, i just have to wrap up in warm clothes and use candles to provide some heat. A dozen naked flames dotted around my living room keeps one room comfy enough for a couple days at half the cost of what turning the radiators on would be.

    40 (scented) tealights are costing me £1.80, and can provide heat for one room for a week.

    If i turned one radiator on to do the job, it would cost me about £3.00 for the week on top of my electric bill.

  2. #2
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: Candles for heat

    You should find someone to share body heat with.

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    Re: Candles for heat

    Isn't it worth a little more than an extra £1 per week, to have the convenience of radiator heat?

    Be careful with the candles, please. Unattended candles have caused a lot of fires. I don't know if you have any pets which are up-and-about, such as a cat or a dog, but if you do, I'd say that candles are a very, VERY bad and dangerous idea.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

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  4. #4
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    You should find someone to share body heat with.
    That WOULD be lovely. No need for bedroom radiator then.

  5. #5
    JUB Addict mikey3000's Avatar
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    Re: Candles for heat

    And unless you're using all natural bee's wax candles, the regular candles emit toxic fumes that can make you very sick.
    Inspired - but too tired.

  6. #6
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Now that the UK is moving firmly into its colder months, the cost of electric exceeds my affordability once again. Unless the temp hits below Oc, i just have to wrap up in warm clothes and use candles to provide some heat. A dozen naked flames dotted around my living room keeps one room comfy enough for a couple days at half the cost of what turning the radiators on would be.

    40 (scented) tealights are costing me £1.80, and can provide heat for one room for a week.

    If i turned one radiator on to do the job, it would cost me about £3.00 for the week on top of my electric bill.
    Mitchy, you might want to look into the possibility of insulating your windows and at least one door, if you have the budget. (Shop around--you could find a significant difference in price among the various retailers)

    They're ugly, but they will make a huge difference in your electric bill.

    http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...Kits/Products/

  7. #7
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Isn't it worth a little more than an extra £1 per week, to have the convenience of radiator heat?

    Be careful with the candles, please. Unattended candles have caused a lot of fires. I don't know if you have any pets which are up-and-about, such as a cat or a dog, but if you do, I'd say that candles are a very, VERY bad and dangerous idea.
    Well, the affordability is an issue, its about what is available in my budget. I'd love to spend extra on convenience, if i could afford to, but i can't.

    I agree that candles are a bad idea in most cases, but i don't have pets, and i'm very safety conscious about placing candles.

  8. #8
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey3000 View Post
    And unless you're using all natural bee's wax candles, the regular candles emit toxic fumes that can make you very sick.
    WHAT???? Tell me more!

  9. #9
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Do what I do: fleece sheets and comforter, fleece pants (flannel works well also) and wool socks. It is paramount that you have a fleece fitted sheet on your bed. I also have a polartec blanket to do whatever with too.

  10. #10
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    Mitchy, you might want to look into the possibility of insulating your windows and at least one door, if you have the budget. (Shop around--you could find a significant difference in price among the various retailers)

    They're ugly, but they will make a huge difference in your electric bill.

    http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...Kits/Products/
    My local council has made consultations, they are aware of heating difficulties in their high-rise housing stock. So far they have added draft strips on the bottom of the main doors and letterbox (which is damn annoying for postmen lol). The windows really need to be looked at next cos there are these paper-thin gaps under the ledges that actually whistle when its windy outside.

  11. #11
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Poor Mitchy.

    I know these are obvious questions you've probably already considered, but would you....

    ....look for a cheaper place to rent?

    ....share accommodation with someone?

    ....ask a family member for help?

  12. #12
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Candles for heat

    ^I'd definitely look into the Window Insulators, Mitchy.

    They'd certainly help, in your case. They'd help a lot.

  13. #13
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Do what I do: fleece sheets and comforter, fleece pants (flannel works well also) and wool socks. It is paramount that you have a fleece fitted sheet on your bed. I also have a polartec blanket to do whatever with too.
    I have a a great duvet to sleep under, keeps me incredibly comfortable during sleep, so i rarely put the heating on in my bedroom, its only freezing when i first get in. I lessen that by sleeping on faux fur fleeces.

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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    WHAT???? Tell me more!
    Not to scare you, just read and use your judgement...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8211543.stm
    Inspired - but too tired.

  15. #15
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Candles for heat

    ^Paraffin is a petroleum product.

  16. #16
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    Poor Mitchy.

    I know these are obvious questions you've probably already considered, but would you....

    ....look for a cheaper place to rent?

    ....share accommodation with someone?

    ....ask a family member for help?
    I am happy enough living where i do. It has some great advantages to it. Very close to the town centre and my place of work. CCTV and FOB entry doors. No premises in the complex has been robbed in the last decade cos of the CCTV on every floor and in the lifts etc, as well as exterior cameras. Also, spiders, which i'm not scared of, but don't like much, rarely visit. There is only one type of spider that is common to see, its a big one, but not the scary looking ones, and its a very timid type.

    I wouldn't want to share with anyone else, been there done that. If anyone else moved in, it'd because we were seeing each other.

    My family, well my mum specifically, helps me out as much as she can already. I try to manage as best as i can on my own. I don't like not being fully independent.

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    Re: Candles for heat

    Just get a small space heater with thermostat and move it from one area to another that you are at.
    In his autumn, before the winter, comes man's last mad surge of youth

  18. #18
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey3000 View Post
    Not to scare you, just read and use your judgement...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8211543.stm
    Lol, i love the BBC articles on scientific research. If we followed the research, we'd be living in bubbles through fear of everything.

    I'm currently a smoker, so the cancer risk from candles is WAY down the list atm.

  19. #19
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    My local council has made consultations, they are aware of heating difficulties in their high-rise housing stock. So far they have added draft strips on the bottom of the main doors and letterbox (which is damn annoying for postmen lol). The windows really need to be looked at next cos there are these paper-thin gaps under the ledges that actually whistle when its windy outside.
    Take some old t-shirts or something, roll them up, and shove them against those gaps. Even that can make a difference.

    Lec

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    Re: Candles for heat

    You indicate there are gaps under the window. Buy the cheapest caulk you can find and run a bead around the windows. Smooth it out with your finger - an old plastic bag works as a makeshift glove. Then, put plastic over it. This will stop most of the cold air from coming in. You will notice a dramatic increase in your flat's ability to retain heat.

    Seeing as the council is aware of the window problem, are they not willing to offset the additional cost? There has to be some scheme out there that can help with heat in the winter. I'm not familiar with programmes available, but I imagine the utility companies have some ways of working with those having trouble meeting their bills.

    Check on your electric rates. Maybe for that two quid you'd be spending on candles, you may be able to run an electric radiator for a bit instead.

    If you're allowed, perhaps an old wood-burning stove could work. I'm not sure where you'd put the flue, though. On the upside, you could burn stuff you found around the estate. Bits of wood, tightly-rolled newsprint, etc.

    Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.
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  21. #21
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Canadian winters:
    Electric/water combined: $100/month (£60)
    Natural Gas: $250-$350 (£155-£220)

    For a house. My mom's apartment is $40 (£25) for electric, but heat is included in the rent. Actually, heat is pretty much always included in the rent. It isn't like an "optional extra" here. Even if a person were willing to bundle up and endure the cold, you just couldn't. The pipes would freeze so the heat has to stay on.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Candles for heat

    whats wrong with getting a space heater??? they're cheap and really warm up a room.

  23. #23
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by jensu846 View Post
    whats wrong with getting a space heater??? they're cheap and really warm up a room.
    Same problem; you have to plug them in to run them, which costs money. Same thing as an electric radiator anyway.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Same problem; you have to plug them in to run them, which costs money. Same thing as an electric radiator anyway.
    But it's gonna use a lot less energy and will only be heating an area and not the whole apartment.
    In his autumn, before the winter, comes man's last mad surge of youth

  25. #25
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by looseliam View Post
    you may be able to run an electric radiator for a bit instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by jensu846 View Post
    whats wrong with getting a space heater??? they're cheap and really warm up a room.
    I have got an electric radiator which i turn on when the temps fall below 0c. I don't like to use it unless its really cold. Anything to keep the utility bills down.
    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Canadian winters:
    Electric/water combined: $100/month (£60)
    Natural Gas: $250-$350 (£155-£220)

    For a house. My mom's apartment is $40 (£25) for electric, but heat is included in the rent. Actually, heat is pretty much always included in the rent. It isn't like an "optional extra" here. Even if a person were willing to bundle up and endure the cold, you just couldn't. The pipes would freeze so the heat has to stay on.
    That sounds proper decent actually. My water and electric combined are £68 per month, never mind the winter months.

    I think the Scandinavian countries have a more affordable utility cost too. Perhaps it only SEEMS costly here, because for half the year the temperatures are warm enough not to use heating at all.

    I guess i should get myself a money jar and put some extra cash in it during summer/autumn to help pay for the extra electric during winter/spring.

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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by looseliam View Post
    You indicate there are gaps under the window. Buy the cheapest caulk you can find and run a bead around the windows. Smooth it out with your finger - an old plastic bag works as a makeshift glove. Then, put plastic over it. This will stop most of the cold air from coming in. You will notice a dramatic increase in your flat's ability to retain heat.

    Seeing as the council is aware of the window problem, are they not willing to offset the additional cost? There has to be some scheme out there that can help with heat in the winter. I'm not familiar with programmes available, but I imagine the utility companies have some ways of working with those having trouble meeting their bills.

    Check on your electric rates. Maybe for that two quid you'd be spending on candles, you may be able to run an electric radiator for a bit instead.

    If you're allowed, perhaps an old wood-burning stove could work. I'm not sure where you'd put the flue, though. On the upside, you could burn stuff you found around the estate. Bits of wood, tightly-rolled newsprint, etc.
    Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real danger here, unless his windows are really as loose as you are.

  27. #27
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real danger here, unless his windows are really as loose as you are.
    Yeah, the council isn't legally obliged to install carbon monoxide detectors, so don't. A new detector has just come onto the market though, and is reasonably cheap, and portable. Its being recommended to take it with you if you go camping or holidaying abroad.

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    Re: Candles for heat

    Gas heating on annualisation runs about 800 bucks here so per month about 65 bucks. Yep, expensive but flipside is no air con in summer.

  29. #29
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    My local council has made consultations, they are aware of heating difficulties in their high-rise housing stock. So far they have added draft strips on the bottom of the main doors and letterbox (which is damn annoying for postmen lol). The windows really need to be looked at next cos there are these paper-thin gaps under the ledges that actually whistle when its windy outside.
    Dude just spend a few bucks on window insulation... your bill will drop significantly and you can then use the heater... these kits go on with juts a hair dryer for a tool....

    http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...Kits/Products/
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  30. #30
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Harke the Boeotarch View Post
    Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real danger here, unless his windows are really as loose as you are.
    What is the source of the CO?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  31. #31
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Dude just spend a few bucks on window insulation... your bill will drop significantly and you can then use the heater... these kits go on with juts a hair dryer for a tool....

    http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...Kits/Products/
    There's also mylar sheeting that can be stapled or taped on. It doesn't seal quite as thoroughly, but still helps. I lived in a trailer as a kid and one of my chores was sealing up the windows at the start of winter.

  32. #32
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    What is the source of the CO?
    I can answer this.

    Some of the antique wood stoves weren't completely airtight, so if/when the wood burned imperfectly, and if the chimney didn't work as it should have, carbon monoxide fumes were emitted into the room.

  33. #33
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    I can answer this.

    Some of the antique wood stoves weren't completely airtight, so if/when the wood burned imperfectly, and if the chimney didn't work as it should have, carbon monoxide fumes were emitted into the room.
    I would not have thought it possible to find a wood stove in a flat.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  34. #34
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Do you have hot running water in your flat? If it's scolding to touch, you might like to fill up empty 2ltr drinks bottles with them and use it as a bed warmer. I used to do this with my mum, but I'd either wrap them in a towel first, or pull a sock over the bottle so it wouldn't scold. With smaller pop bottles 500ml or less, you can fill these up as hand warmers.

    After mum's stroke, her circulation wasn't so good so her extremities, hands and feet would sometimes be cold. It was a great and cheap way to keep warm. You could save the water for whatever you need later, say empty to wash stuff, or put in a bucket to flush the loo.


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    Re: Candles for heat

    BTW, if you're burning anything, you need air circulation. Sealing the windows might keep in the noxious gases...


  36. #36
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey3000 View Post
    Not to scare you, just read and use your judgement...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8211543.stm
    That's a very weak article in my opinion. One would literally have to be using tons of candles constantly for it even to be a remote possibility. And asides from that, breathing the air in any city is probably more harmful.

  37. #37
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Candles for heat

    If i were cold in my home, it would drive me to do whatever is necessary to get additional work, or to take in a roomie, or to get training to move up the pay scale.

    I know that growing up in sub-standard homes and incomes has made keep struggling and striving, lest I wind up in the poverty that my family lived in. It is just unacceptable to me to live in privation. To that end, I have gone to work since a teen, and lived in humble places until recently, but could manage to heat them, etc.

    Is it possible that you need to find lesser accommodations in order to trade off comfort for desirability?

  38. #38
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    Is it possible that you need to find lesser accommodations in order to trade off comfort for desirability?
    Lesser accommodations? I already live in one of the cheapest properties that the council offers. The only thing cheaper is a one room flat with kitchen sharing. Thats the other side of town. It'd be less desireable, even if cheaper.

    I got some good news today too. A payrise. Not a lot, but over the year, it'll cover two thirds of my winter fuel bill.

  39. #39
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Candles for heat

    I just have trouble understanding England and that kind of poverty.

    I grew up on poverty in America, and we nor anyone we knew were actually cold in the winter, and I'm talking people who lived in slum property, rural and in town, and received government assistance like welfare, etc.

    My basis of comparison is that American and England had comparable standards of living.

    Again, my frame of reference included homes that didn't even have indoor plumbing, but they were never unheated. As it was the Deep South, air conditioning was a luxury and not necessarily there. I just am struggling with understanding that kind of poverty from a full-time employed worker. My mother wasn't always employed, but we never went cold, and there wasn't a second income in the home.

  40. #40

    Re: Candles for heat

    Is it safe to assume that you have free Internet? Cable TV?

    Without seeing your budget, income/spending, no one can guess or advise much.

    All that intrusiveness aside, check out a sports/hunting store sometime to see what they have for small propane heaters and lanterns.

    Also, a good oil lamp can be had pretty cheap, and they put out quite a bit of heat as well as light, and they’re a lot safer to use than candles.

  41. #41
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    I just have trouble understanding England and that kind of poverty.

    I grew up on poverty in America, and we nor anyone we knew were actually cold in the winter, and I'm talking people who lived in slum property, rural and in town, and received government assistance like welfare, etc.

    My basis of comparison is that American and England had comparable standards of living.

    Again, my frame of reference included homes that didn't even have indoor plumbing, but they were never unheated. As it was the Deep South, air conditioning was a luxury and not necessarily there. I just am struggling with understanding that kind of poverty from a full-time employed worker. My mother wasn't always employed, but we never went cold, and there wasn't a second income in the home.
    OK. Well, the living wage, as calculated by the Centre for Research in Social Policy, places a per hour wage requirement, in order to meet the basic standard of living. That wage, outside of London (its higher in the capital) is £7.45 per hour. The minimum wage however, is £6.19, quite a bit below the living wage. Employers are not obliged to pay their staff a living wage, so long as they are paying at least the minimum. The result is that around 5 million workers over here are earning less than what is needed to sustain a basic standard of living.
    We have recently seen the term 'working poor' entered into political debate, to describe that 5 million who are contributing to the system, but for little reward.

    My wage is above the minimum, but closer to that, than the living wage.
    I can't afford to have pets, or to learn to drive, i can't afford to save for a holiday or just save lol. I've been without a freezer for the last 3 years.

    My budget allows me to cover bills, internet, groceries and tobacco. I have a mobile phone, but i can't afford internet AND top-up credit for the mobile, so i always contact people via email or my landline, as that is paid for in my internet package. I buy new underwear, socks and work clothes in January, when there is a free couple of months from council tax and water rates. Casual clothes are bought for me at xmas and on my birthday by my lovely mother (but with my sisters input for 'taste' purposes lol.)

    The situation is pretty much why i started voting Liberal Democrats. They have so far raised the tax threshold twice as part of their role in the current coalition. That cuts my income tax bill, putting much needed cash in my pocket.

    I grew up in poverty during a Conservative government, i stayed that way during a Labour government. I'm confident that the Liberal Democrats are the party of fairness, that they claim to be. I'll be sticking with them for years to come i'm sure. Having said that, the PM David Cameron says he supports and encourages employers paying the living wage, but its not cumpulsory, which solves little.

    The elderly get winter fuel allowance to help cover the heating bills during the cold spell.

    As i work, i'm generally not entitled to benefits, although i could apply for a working tax credit, which cuts my tax contributions. I'm not happy about that tho. I shouldn't have to pay less in tax, when that money helps those poorer than me. I should have a wage that matches the cost of basic living. Either employers are made to pay more, or government brings down the cost of housing to an affordable level. The rent is the killer in the wage packet, almost 45% of gross income.

    EDIT: But at least i've got the NHS, so i'm in good health

  42. #42
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I would not have thought it possible to find a wood stove in a flat.
    Certainly not nowadays, Bankside, but I think that the gentleman who suggested it didn't know Mitch lived in a flat.

    (Historical note: of course all flats had wood cook stoves prior to 1920; no other kind of stove existed!)

  43. #43
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Mitchymo, what I'm getting ready to suggest might sound a little bit extreme, but it works.

    A group of women living in the Commonwealth have lived on Wartime Rations for quite some time. One woman in Canada has created a website devoted to it, and another woman, living in the UK, says she saves a full 50% on her grocery bill. That's a most significant amount of money, and a nice benefit is that your health would improve.

    It sounds a little bit extreme, but if I were in your situation I'd definitely give it a look.

  44. #44
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    .. i could apply for a working tax credit, which cuts my tax contributions. I'm not happy about that tho. I shouldn't have to pay less in tax, when that money helps those poorer than me ...
    Don't be a mug Mitch. If you're entitled to Tax Credits, claim 'em. Those poorer than you will be claiming for everything under the sun and you shouldn't feel that you have to hold back so they can have even more.

  45. #45
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Don't be a mug Mitch. If you're entitled to Tax Credits, claim 'em. Those poorer than you will be claiming for everything under the sun and you shouldn't feel that you have to hold back so they can have even more.
    I know. But it doesn't make sense to me. If i (and everyone else in my boat) claims tax credit, the government loses revenue, and what will it do? Raise taxes, raise VAT, that would cancel out the gain.
    Is there not something just a bit wrong that workers should be reliant on benefits?

  46. #46
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I know. But it doesn't make sense to me. If i (and everyone else in my boat) claims tax credit, the government loses revenue, and what will it do? Raise taxes, raise VAT, that would cancel out the gain.
    Is there not something just a bit wrong that workers should be reliant on benefits?
    In other threads you've argued that your rent should be free, leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill. As soon as there's something you can actually claim, you turn arse about face and say that you don't want to be subsidised by the taxpayer after all.

    Free rent is pie in the sky. Claim what you're entitled to man.

    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/TAXCREDITS/

  47. #47
    mitchymo
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    In other threads you've argued that your rent should be free, leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill. As soon as there's something you can actually claim, you turn arse about face and say that you don't want to be subsidised by the taxpayer after all.
    That's not fair. I AM a taxpayer. My tax paying for cheap housing is money worth spent. My tax being paid to subsidise my own tax credits is just dumb, and money down the drain.

  48. #48
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Candles for heat

    How are the prospects for a higher-paying job?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  49. #49
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    Re: Candles for heat

    Mitchy, claim what you are due. Government departments are given a yearly budget. Each department will make sure they use that budget, otherwise it gets cut the following year. If people are not claiming what is due to them, government will make sure that it spends it for them. Members of Parliament are never slow in claiming what is due to them.

  50. #50
    mitchymo
    Guest

    Re: Candles for heat

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    How are the prospects for a higher-paying job?
    There are none as yet. For an unskilled worker, my employer actually pays one of the better rates around. And they make you feel appreciated, especially at xmas. The store i work in is not large enough to take a step up the ladder either, i could only consider that if my immediate boss left, but i don't want her to, she's cool.

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