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  1. #101

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    This thread is about global warming and the environment. There is no doubt that population growth impacts the invitonment, so why should we not limit immigration? It is one of the easiest things we can do to help the environment.

  2. #102
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It isn't. But you aren't interested in population control, just control of anyone who isn't in your mythical "assimilated majority".
    "Freedom through conformity" is a rather odd ideology, isn't it.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  3. #103
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Limit immigration? The environment is mostly impacted by big business and the big time consumers... immigrants have less money and therefore consume less. And many immigrants I know are resourceful and recycle out of necessity. Again blaming the wrong set of people.

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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    This thread is about global warming and the environment. There is no doubt that population growth impacts the invitonment, so why should we not limit immigration? It is one of the easiest things we can do to help the environment.
    Before we proceed any further, WTF is "invitonment"???
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    oh and there is also the Microbial method of hydrocarbon fuel production through atmospheric scrubbing....

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-fuel-from-co2

    By breathing in carbon dioxide and hydrogen, an engineered version of the bacterium Ralstonia eutropha produced branched alcohols, compounds that can be blended with gasoline or serve as an energy source on their own. This could help repurpose carbon emissions in a way that can generate money.

    The researchers, who published their findings earlier this month in Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology, initially studied this bacterium because it can form polymers under stress. "We've been looking at this organism for 25 years now,"
    These are two possible techs that could not only bring energy independence but also stop and reverse the amount of greenhouse gasses in the planet's environment.

    This type of fuel tech has GOT to be taken seriously, because, there isn't enough Cement to hold all the water out of Florida if global warming trends continue. You can't build a levee to hold an ocean at bay. That has never worked. It's like taking both your lungs out so that you won't breathe pollution. It reacts to, but doesn't fix the problem.

    For too long big oil has spoon fed the USA with the big lie that they are indispensible.

    They are not. We have alternatives. Hell, I know a guy that powers his deisel engine off of old cooking oil from one of his buddy's restaurants.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-vegetable-oil

    Once you filter the oil and convert the motor, restaurants will pay YOU to come and get their old oil.
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    "Freedom through conformity" is a rather odd ideology, isn't it.
    No, but I've heard that "freedom through diversity" is.

    At least of opinion.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Texas had a proud history of being "moderate" and electing members regardless of the "R" or the "D" so long as they represented Texans when they got to Austin, or D.C..

    But that was back in the days before Karl Rove, Dick Armey, Ted DeLay, George W. Bush, or the Texas Tea Party.

    How's that been working out in Oregon so far?
    Back in the days before Rove and co. we had MA FERGUSON!!!!
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Texas had a proud history of being "moderate" and electing members regardless of the "R" or the "D" so long as they represented Texans when they got to Austin, or D.C..

    But that was back in the days before Karl Rove, Dick Armey, Ted DeLay, George W. Bush, or the Texas Tea Party.

    How's that been working out in Oregon so far?
    Mixed results. Democrats love to add regulations to every activity in sight; they're the ones that handed regulatory authority over state recreational lands to the state parks, and now we've got hundreds of regulations for state parks and beaches and such, many just ridiculous, some contradictory. Farms have gone out of business thanks to their regulations, along with other small businesses which don't have millions of dollars sitting around to comply with ridiculous requirements. I think Oregon has shifted into an atmosphere where "moderate" has gone out of style on both sides.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #109
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    No, but I've heard that "freedom through diversity" is.
    That's SOCIALISM!
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    "Freedom through conformity" is a rather odd ideology, isn't it.
    1 9 8 4.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by BostonPirate View Post
    This type of fuel tech has GOT to be taken seriously, because, there isn't enough Cement to hold all the water out of Florida if global warming trends continue. You can't build a levee to hold an ocean at bay. That has never worked. It's like taking both your lungs out so that you won't breathe pollution. It reacts to, but doesn't fix the problem.
    : Netherlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by BostonPirate View Post
    For too long big oil has spoon fed the USA with the big lie that they are indispensible.

    They are not. We have alternatives. Hell, I know a guy that powers his deisel engine off of old cooking oil from one of his buddy's restaurants.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-vegetable-oil

    Once you filter the oil and convert the motor, restaurants will pay YOU to come and get their old oil.
    Restaurants are starting to charge a token fee. It's gotten to where regulations cost them to dispose of used oil, so it isn't much; one in Oregon charges a penny for a five gallon bucket, another charges five bucks for a card that says you're authorized to take their used oil, and there's no limit. But regulators are starting to eye this as something else they can restrict and get money from, so watch out, it may not be long until you have to be a licensed contractor to collect used cooking oil from restaurants and turn it into fuel.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Turning CO2 back into fuel just marches in place -- the building materials sequestration actually helps roll levels back.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  13. #113
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Turning CO2 back into fuel just marches in place -- the building materials sequestration actually helps roll levels back.
    The same bacteria that produces alcohol under stress produces polymers when it is not. It's possible with a bit of genetic tampering to continue to undo the "non degradable waste" in the earth's surface and atmosphere. IF evolution shows us anything, it's that biology tends to be the quickest fix for earth's system.

    There was too much oxygen at one point when there were only plants breathing. As a result, life developed that removed the toxic and flamable Oxygen from the plant environment so that the life would stop catching fire a la planetwide forest fires.

    I think that what the people who argue against fixing the climate issue don't understand is that the planet will continue with or without Humans. Just because we render it hostile to oxygen breathing life, does not mean that other life wont come along and take advantage of that niche.

    I would prefer the human race not have to dissapear for the planet to fix itself this time. That is a destiny we have the technology to stop. However the political and financial will is not there to stop it anytime soon, and frankly, time is running out.
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Mixed results. Democrats love to add regulations to every activity in sight;
    WTF is wrong with that?

    If they were better organized in their thought process they wouldn't be "limiting free speech" under Citizens United.

    they're the ones that handed regulatory authority over state recreational lands to the state parks, and now we've got hundreds of regulations for state parks and beaches and such, many just ridiculous, some contradictory.
    Yeah, here in Texas they did the same thing, except they didn't actually require that the "user fees" (aka Republican Taxes) be used toward the upkeep and infrastructure of our State Parks.

    So Republican Governor Rick Perry, like he's used every "user fee" and "federal monies" to come into this state (regardless of intended purpose), to "balance the state budget."

    With the only requirement being that it's within the Texas Constitution that the Texas Legislature does so, regardless of party.

    So they all cave, and Rick Perry declares that Texas should sale it's state parks, or at the very least open them up to exploitation of their "natural resources"....mostly set aside for his biggest campaign contributors and "outside" international interests.

    But he hates the fags, so it's all okay!

    Farms have gone out of business thanks to their regulations,
    NO! Farms have been bought, purchased, and consolidated by BIG AGRICULTURE, and subsidized to the hilt under the guise that they're still "small farms" and leading you to believe otherwise.

    along with other small businesses which don't have millions of dollars sitting around to comply with ridiculous requirements.
    You honestly think that those "ridiculous requirements" were a mistake?

    I think Oregon has shifted into an atmosphere where "moderate" has gone out of style on both sides.
    I disagree.

    When it comes to real "social issues" the voters of Oregon don't see how it has any effect on their lives, and tend to vote against it as being too much "government."
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Great bit of satire.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #116
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    what do you propose we do about it?

    and what's going to have any effect as long as China, India, and other developing countries don't give a shit about the environment?
    The entire world, for better or worse, pays attention to what happens in the United States, and what our policies are, etc. As the most powerful nation. "our" actions create effects which are global. Even far-flung developing countries have many people with a mindset that wants to imitate things "American" - you can go on the streets of Dakar or Hanoi and see people wearing shirts, caps, or shoes with logos for Nike, The New York Yankees, The Eagles, etc.

    Be that as it may, if the United States adopted elective policies which encouraged alternatively-sourced energy, and the transition was successful, large nations such as China, India, and Indonesia (and hordes of smaller nations) would take note. I believe that Brazil is a case in point, because they have made some successful transitions, and I've heard or read [where?] that other countries in the region are themselves trying to figure out how to be more self-sufficient and to decrease the carbon footprint.

    More than likely, if the U. S. much more successfully embraced solar power, for example, I believe that other countries would want to try to imitate that. Something like this has to happen, because places such as China and India are trending toward many or most households having refrigerators and air conditioning, for example. The latter is a massive household resource hog. If the electricity to power the new hundreds of millions of these things can come from perfectly good sources such as solar, displacing the heavy use of fossil-fuel plants, the entire planet benefits.

    It is a human tragedy that nearly every method of producing energy has terrible consequences. Perhaps nuclear energy could become more viable if some country (the United States or China, I would think, would be most likely - or perhaps a Saharan nation such as Mali) were to move everybody out of a large geological desert basin which is also far from earthquake zones, and use the entire basin for no other purpose than the disposal of the world's nuclear waste. The other alternative of shooting it into the Sun on missiles is dangerous, because such missions cannot be guaranteed against catastrophic failure happening in our atmosphere. (BASIN = a region which is entirely surrounded by higher elevations, therefore not allowing any rivers or watershed to flow outside the region.)

    Hydroelectric energy, an excellent source of energy, has its own problems, certainly. Often there is horrific displacement of people, such as by the Three Gorges Dam in China and the Aswan Dam (which formed man-made Lake Nasser in Egypt).
    Three Gorges Dam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Three Gorges Dam is a hydroelectric dam that spans the Yangtze River ... the dam flooded archaeological and cultural sites and displaced some 1.3 million people
    Hydroelectric power also can cause horrific disruptions to ecosystems. However, once the damage is done, the damage is usually "finished" and no further consequences are on the line.

    Something MUST be done, though, to curb use of fossil fuels, because if it obvious that the CO2 *is* affecting global climate. This could easily include manufacturing cars more similar to the European fleet, which I've often heard are getting FAR better gasoline efficiency than "our" cars are. However, NO human being knows whether sharply curtailing carbon emissions would be enough to curtail climate change or whether the terrible feedback-loop has already started, which brings me to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Even if climate change is man made, it is doubtful that we can do enough to stop it.

    The one thing we can and should do is limit population growth. People create emissions by heating, using autos, eating meat, even breathing CO2 and passing gas. They create garbage, sewage, use resources, create urban sprawl etc. so,logically we should severely limit immigration. Alas, no. Immigration trumps everything including the environment.
    Interesting to see as admission that there is climate change, because I don't usually think I see you agreeing with that. And regarding population growth - I actually agree there are **too many humans** but the question is HOW to regulate it? It would need to be voluntary, though even things like TAX POLICY could go a very long way toward slowing or even reversing population profiles globally.

    Immigration causing the problem, though? HOGWASH. That immigration which you so ardently decry, only means that more people are in the United States, and fewer people are in Mexico, El Salvador, Ghana, Viet Nam, or wherever else they came from. Yes, they are likely to use more resources here than if they stayed in their original countries, but even in the homeland they cannot live in a vacuum either. It costs money to emigrate a distant homeland and end up in the United States, so most likely those immigrants you decry are leaving conditions that had at least some of the creature comforts, such as refrigerators and perhaps even cars, which we take for granted here. So immigrants are probably not providing a new carbon footprint where none existed before, though their carbon footprint may be higher here.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Al Gore would have been President and we could have spent trillions less by not getting into a second war...

    Cuz honestly the billions lost along the east coast may have been less had we started the cleaner energy policies offered by Jimmy Carter thirty years ago.
    I think there's a good chance that NineOneOne would have still happened, because the mindset that brought the attack to happen was already in place LONG before George W. Bush was elected. That mindset has its origins at least as far back as 1953...or, if one looks at it from a religious point of view, that mindset has possibly existed since The Crusades. To extrapolate how Al Gore would have reacted to the attacks is impossible, but I think we can rest assured that he would NOT have bombed an entirely innocent sovereign nation (Iraq) as George W. Bush directed. I remember thinking of Gore (in 2000) as being sort of a "hothead" who might make some bad snap-judgments on foreign policy, though I still preferred him over who we got.

    And yes the strength of Sandy could have been less. Hurricanes aren't supposed to exist that far north past the middle of meteorological Autumn. EVER. I read somewhere that the warmer atmosphere may be holding 7% more water than years ago, and the mixture of water and sunshine, of course, are the basis of almost all weather.

    Quote Originally Posted by xseeker69 View Post
    My own personal look at global warming is in TN. When my mother was a kid, she said there was cold and snow. When I was a kid, it was cold and sometimes snow. Not enough for me, I liked getting out of school. Nowadays, we could get vicious thunderstorms and killer tornados followed by snow or ice storms. ANd this in December or January.

    Even if people are not causing the warming, alternative energy sources must be found. Fossil fuels are based on basically fossils. When all the oil, coal, and gas are used up, it's gone. No more. It's better to go NOW to solar, wind, and my favorite nuclear fusion. Of course, that would do away with the multi-billion dollar empires of the wealthy 1%. And that's why the repulblicans are against anything to do with global warming.
    Winters have changed since I was a kid, too. I remember that when the snow came, it was there to stay for the next three months, almost without fail. There was often a "January thaw" but never enough to remove all of the snow cover. This was in southeast Michigan. and, as Ann Arbor happens to be one of my favorite places IN THE WORLD in addition to being in my "home County" or Washtenaw, I'm aware of weather/climate in that area even though it's close to 500 miles from me. Snow can no longer be counted on staying on the ground and not uncovering the topsoil until the arrival of March, any more.

    Consider that the horrific Canadian ice storm (in 1999?) happened in JANUARY. At that time of year, Ottawa and Montreal should be hopelessly buried in snow, and in temperatures colder than your home freezer. Of course that awful storm was WEATHER and not climate, but there's a point where a large number of anomalous events begin to define, indeed, climate.

    There are far more reasons to go to fuel alternatives than merely to compete with or dismantle the multi-billion-dollar transnationals such as OPEC, Exxon-Mobil, etc. (An added benefit would remove the need to spend trillions of dollars on a massive military presence being located in some parts of the world, for little other purpose than providing massive corporate welfare to these corporate entities that want oil extraction and trade to be safe. Of course, the military would just find something else to do, wouldn't it?)

    Moving as fast as possible to other methods also would help to assure that fossil resources WILL STILL EXIST hundreds, and thousands, of years from now - for use in applications which may not be compatible with synthetic sources. Continuing to go full tilt at the DRILL, BABY, DRILL mentality will cause the world at some point, perhaps 221 or 507 years from now, to slam into a solid immovable wall of nonsupply when the last extractable petroleum or coal has been removed. There may be some very important things - even possibly something we cannot yet imagine - which cannot survive without these natural resources.

    For all we know, some natural petroleum component may end up being a vital component to nuclear fusion, and it may be something that cannot be substituted synthetically.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I will ditto this... if we all simply stopped responding to the poster then he would go away eventually.

    That wasnt controlling the population of our own nation; that was killing savages. Now no matter how evil that is there is a difference.
    Very possibly he'll go away within 48 hours, anyway. We'll see. Some of these CE&P people are "seasonal" - not to be seen after the elections. Did we ever see laikaNYC or justapixel surface again after the elections two years ago?

    And I would have said either "(so-called) savages" or merely put quotes around the word "savages," but I understood the context you were using it in, similar to what my context would have been.

    *******************
    NUCLEAR FUSION? Yes. That is THE HOLY GRAIL of energy.
    Last edited by frankfrank; November 5th, 2012 at 07:24 PM.
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    The treatment of American Indians and most of our exploits prior to this century could be considered war crimes in this day and age... but they didnt happen in this day and age.
    As an extreme-right-wing friend of mine (who died from smoking in 2005) once said, rather satirically: "The biggest problem with the Indians, is that they had a terrible immigration policy."


    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    it may not be long until you have to be a licensed contractor to collect used cooking oil from restaurants and turn it into fuel.
    You're not far from the truth. My friend up the coast from you is worried that he will be forced to abandon his locksmith career, because Oregon is now requiring him to be a fully-licensed contractor/carpenter just to do locks.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  18. #118

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Liberals want Americans to make sacrifices to reduce emissions and other environmental damage in the US, BUT they insist that we bring in millions and millions of new creators of emissions and pollution. Perhaps on a world wide basis, immigrants here reduce elsewhere, but each nation is supposed to reduce. Americans should not be expected to make sacrifices if the result is just to accomodate immigrants and let Mexico et al. send their emissions problem here. Your hypocrisy makes your burden of persuasion impossible.

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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    And yet another thinly veiled racist anti Immigrant rant from you precludes even the hope of someone taking you seriously enough to bother trying persuasion - in your case at least.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    It appears that we’ve strayed from the topic in this thread [again].

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The one thing we can and should do is limit population growth. … so,logically we should severely limit immigration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Americans should not be expected to make sacrifices if the result is just to accomodate immigrants

  21. #121
    JUB Addicts Dobson73's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Even if climate change is man made, it is doubtful that we can do enough to stop it. Liberal are eager to us it to control our lives and business, but having surrendered our freedom it will not stop the client change. Every thing effects the environment, so every thing must be regulated. Why should the rich be allowed bigger houses and bigger autos? Needs to be regulated. Cattle release gases, so regulate diets. Garbage fills land fills, so regulate what people discard. Ration gasoline, electricity, water, heating gas.
    The one thing we can and should do is limit population growth. People create emissions by heating, using autos, eating meat, even breathing CO2 and passing gas. They create garbage, sewage, use resources, create urban sprawl etc. so,logically we should severely limit immigration. Alas, no. Immigration trumps everything including the environment.
    Wow. Seriously? Are you for real? Sadly, I think you are and as this is the first time I've been back to this Thread since starting it, I've got a lot of reading to do; sadly it seems you're not alone. At least on a warmer planet you'll have plenty of sand to chose from when it comes to burying your head.

    Umm, where to start. Oh that I lived in a country where petrol was as cheap as you have it. Ration petrol by making it too expensive for you to jump into your SUV and drive to the mall to buy your plastic bottle of coke. Get out and walk, FFS. And yes, regulate what people discard by regulating what purchases are packed in to start with.

    Why indeed should the rich be allowed bigger houses and autos? Why in fact, should anyone? Local councils/government can mandate on the size of houses being built in their jurisdiction.

    Yes ration electricity, again by raising charges. You want to see how power consumption has dropped in Australia due to some very hefty hikes in charges!! God help the person who leaves a light on in an unused room in our house.

    You say to limit population growth (I'm actually with you on that!) but that people create emissions by heating, using autos, eating meat. I'm not actually aware of any human who's temperature has personally contributed to global warming but you have obviously researched so I bow to you on that. And I rest my case about upping fuel prices, upping electricity charges and getting people to think about how they live their lives.

    I think you're drawing a veeeeery long bow here to immigration as the cause. Wouldn't you want to limit the birth rate among your citizens? And how about slowing down your consumption of resources that are not infinite? Immigration is a separate issue.

    Good luck with your stance.

  22. #122
    JUB Addicts Dobson73's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    BTW, guys, the "uncomfortable" in my thread title wasn't for me feeling uncomfortable. It was thinking that for a lot of climate change deniers the question of Global warming would be uncomfortable in the wake of Sandy.

  23. #123

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    I still don't understand the concept of how taxing developed countries and giving that money to undeveloped will stop climate change.

  24. #124
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I still don't understand the concept of how taxing developed countries and giving that money to undeveloped will stop climate change.
    That's so strange. I totally understand it. Want me to explain it to you?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  25. #125

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Please do.

  26. #126

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    That's so strange. I totally understand it. Want me to explain it to you?
    I'm waiting to hear your explanation.

  27. #127
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    It appears that we’ve strayed from the topic in this thread [again].




    Oh Ben.

    We barely knew you.

  28. #128
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Results of petition for Romney and Obama to break the silence on Climate Change.

    This AM I had this email from Forecast the Facts. They had passed a petition around asking us to contact both Obama and Romney to break the silence on Climate Change. These URLs are the results of the petition.
    There was a thread about this before the election but I cannot find it. I went back 9 pages of the forum, around 9/24.
    I think it was andysayshi or Telstra, but I looked through their posts. There are only 4 pages of individual posts. Again nothing.
    So if anyone knows what that thread was, please refer to it.

    http://forecastthefacts.org/
    President Obama: Four Years Ago

    In one of his first public statements after winning election in 2008, President Obama promised bold leadership on climate change. As we congratulate the President on his re-election, it is time to restore that promise. Watch the President's speech on climate from four years ago, then join Forecast the Facts in urging the President to fulfill his promise on climate change.
    http://act.engagementlab.org/sign/cl...7.93395.kAr3ie

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2059174.html

    https://loudsauce.com/campaigns/345-...ask-obama-live

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...-disaster.html

    http://www.politico.com/morningenerg...energy594.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-ze...b_1918688.html

    http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/...peak-its-name/

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...wpmk=MK0000200

    http://act.engagementlab.org/signup/...7.93395.kAr3ie

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...te-change.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...#slide=1719799

    http://act.engagementlab.org/sign/cl...7.93395.kAr3ie

    http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-...ll-pro-coal-ad

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...4bee_blog.html

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/e...ll-pro-coal-ob

    http://act.engagementlab.org/signup/...7.93395.kAr3ie

    http://grist.org/politics/the-most-b...this-election/

    http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/11...ricane-ad.html
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  29. #129
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Results of petition for Romney and Obama to break the silence on Climate Change.

    The thread was created by an Australian guy.
    Can't remember his JUB name.

    Here it is, do you mean this thread ?
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thre...Sandy-question


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  30. #130
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Results of petition for Romney and Obama to break the silence on Climate Change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    The thread was created by an Australian guy.
    Can't remember his JUB name.

    Here it is, do you mean this thread ?
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thre...Sandy-question
    Yep, that's it! Thanks. I remember looking at it in my search through 9 pages of forum. Didn't register then.
    Mods could you please add this to the bottom of the thread that Telstra posted here. My links are probably more related to it than a thread on its own. Thanks. I will have to practice my memory lessons more.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  31. #131

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I'm waiting to hear your explanation.
    Still waiting.

  32. #132
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were joking, didn't wanna embarrass you.

    Anyway, it's very high horse of the US or any other developed country to claim developing countries should follow environmental regulations. After all, WE didn't. We polluted the world with our factories and rampant capitalism, and we built the structures on which we now thrive. We kinda fucked up the planet, and we realized it, so we enforced environmental regulations on our territory, now that we didn't need all that manufacturing, and could sustain it without barfing on nature.

    However, developing countries NEED their dirty not-up-to-regulations factories and polluting activities to get to where we are, because they lack the infrastructure to do it in an environment-friendly way. And so, if we want them to not barf on nature, it's our duty to help them. Otherwise we're just hypocrites who abused the environment when we needed to, but are now denying others the right to do the same.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  33. #133
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    ....god damn socialists, WE have ours, FUCK everyone else.....


    (grin)
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  34. #134

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were joking, didn't wanna embarrass you.

    Anyway, it's very high horse of the US or any other developed country to claim developing countries should follow environmental regulations. After all, WE didn't. We polluted the world with our factories and rampant capitalism, and we built the structures on which we now thrive. We kinda fucked up the planet, and we realized it, so we enforced environmental regulations on our territory, now that we didn't need all that manufacturing, and could sustain it without barfing on nature.

    However, developing countries NEED their dirty not-up-to-regulations factories and polluting activities to get to where we are, because they lack the infrastructure to do it in an environment-friendly way. And so, if we want them to not barf on nature, it's our duty to help them. Otherwise we're just hypocrites who abused the environment when we needed to, but are now denying others the right to do the same.
    So, you're saying we pay them to play nice? My guess the third world countries would go out and all buy new cars that use gas and electronics that use electricity that is made with gas and coal with the tax money they'd get from us.

    In that case the problem would be bigger in your mind.

  35. #135
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Um, no, I am saying if we will expect them to not use early 20th century means of development, we need to help them develop by sharing our resources with them. You can't have it both ways - restrictions and refusal to help. YOU used those bad ways to develop, so who are you to deny them to others without offering alternatives?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  36. #136
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were joking, didn't wanna embarrass you.

    Anyway, it's very high horse of the US or any other developed country to claim developing countries should follow environmental regulations. After all, WE didn't. We polluted the world with our factories and rampant capitalism, and we built the structures on which we now thrive. We kinda fucked up the planet, and we realized it, so we enforced environmental regulations on our territory, now that we didn't need all that manufacturing, and could sustain it without barfing on nature.

    However, developing countries NEED their dirty not-up-to-regulations factories and polluting activities to get to where we are, because they lack the infrastructure to do it in an environment-friendly way. And so, if we want them to not barf on nature, it's our duty to help them. Otherwise we're just hypocrites who abused the environment when we needed to, but are now denying others the right to do the same.
    That's like saying Africa should be entitled to open pit copper mining so they can install landline phones everywhere. After all, that's what we did, and if we don't let them create toxic copper tailings ponds then we're being evil neocolonialist yadda yadda insert socialist rhetoric here.

    The reality is they are never going to install copper phone lines from one end of the continent to another. They are leapfrogging straight to cell technology, which makes installing landlines pointless. And they have not really paid for the development of either land line or cellular technology; they're getting the latest mature technology for essentially no development cost.

    So I don't lose a minute of sleep forcing developing countries to hold up the same high environmental standards.

    And given the efficiency of natural gas, for example, does it really make sense to allow 3rd world deforestation while people cart sticks to their fireplaces to cook over dirty fires in cold rooms?

    No; they need to start at the top, with modern clean technology. We cut down half our forests so they don't have to.

    Really the only way a person can have that kind of view of stage-by-stage development is through the errors of marxism. Africa is not waiting patiently an industrial revolution; it is experiencing an information-age revolution. They can play by our rules the rules. And we'd be absolute suckers to let them get away with anything less.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  37. #137
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    I didn't say they should be allowed to destroy the environments if there are alternatives. I am saying that most of those alternatives are not available to a country that is just now developing (think India). And if we want them to do it right when they don't have the means to, we have to provide those means or stfu.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  38. #138
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I didn't say they should be allowed to destroy the environments if there are alternatives. I am saying that most of those alternatives are not available to a country that is just now developing (think India). And if we want them to do it right when they don't have the means to, we have to provide those means or stfu.
    India has a space program. It has it's own means, and it can stfu.


    EVEN by the low standards of India’s government, its system of distributing benefits in kind to the needy stands out for waste and inefficiency. Two-fifths of food rations disappear into the pockets of bureaucrats, ration-shop owners, distributors and so on. Many of the 140m claims a year for bottled cooking gas come from families who do not need help or from “ghost” recipients created by black-market traders. Car drivers and businesses use an increasing share of cheap diesel, which in the 2011-12 fiscal year cost about $27 billion in subsidies.
    http://www.economist.com/news/leader...y-cash-strings

    Nowhere I have lived has proven more fertile ground than India for Sod's (or Murphy's) Law - the axiom that anything that can go wrong will go wrong - than India. So what explains this epic inefficiency?

    My economics professor had an answer - India, he told me, has long had an economy based on digging holes and filling holes.

    Things go wrong by design, so that a multitude of middlemen can earn a living by fixing them.

    That was OK - charming even - when renting a flat here cost £300 ($480) a month and there was not a vast young, jobless population.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20170776
    Last edited by bankside; November 13th, 2012 at 05:12 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  39. #139

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    That's like saying Africa should be entitled to open pit copper mining so they can install landline phones everywhere. After all, that's what we did, and if we don't let them create toxic copper tailings ponds then we're being evil neocolonialist yadda yadda insert socialist rhetoric here.

    The reality is they are never going to install copper phone lines from one end of the continent to another. They are leapfrogging straight to cell technology, which makes installing landlines pointless. And they have not really paid for the development of either land line or cellular technology; they're getting the latest mature technology for essentially no development cost.

    So I don't lose a minute of sleep forcing developing countries to hold up the same high environmental standards.

    And given the efficiency of natural gas, for example, does it really make sense to allow 3rd world deforestation while people cart sticks to their fireplaces to cook over dirty fires in cold rooms?

    No; they need to start at the top, with modern clean technology. We cut down half our forests so they don't have to.

    Really the only way a person can have that kind of view of stage-by-stage development is through the errors of marxism. Africa is not waiting patiently an industrial revolution; it is experiencing an information-age revolution. They can play by our rules the rules. And we'd be absolute suckers to let them get away with anything less.
    Yeah! Let's buy everyone in Africa iPads and microwaves.

    They will end up being used as for any purpose other than what they were intended.

    For example there is currently a problem with the malaria nets given to people in Africa -- they are being used to catch fish rather than to protect women and children from misquotes.

  40. #140
    Ijubbinatti BostonPirate's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Yeah! Let's buy everyone in Africa iPads and microwaves.

    They will end up being used as for any purpose other than what they were intended.

    For example there is currently a problem with the malaria nets given to people in Africa -- they are being used to catch fish rather than to protect women and children from misquotes.
    For perspective.....

    Among other design flaws, their tight mesh blocks ventilation, a serious problem in the hot, humid places where malaria roosts. Minor discomfort might be tolerable in rural African communities desperate for anti-malarial prevention. But, as medical anthropologists have consistently found, because malaria is so common in much of sub-Saharan Africa, and because the overwhelming majority of cases go away on their own, most rural Africans consider malaria a minor ailment, the way that Westerners might think of the cold or flu. Many rural people also believe that malaria is caused not just by mosquitoes but also by other factors such as mangoes, or hard work.

    As a result, while we see the treated nets as a lifesaving gift, they see them as a discomfort that provides only partial protection against a trivial illness.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may...-shah-20100502

    Now someone has to ask... did anyone ask them if the mosquito nets were something functional in their environment, or did america just decide to throw money at a problem, thinking that it would work?

    Problems require an understanding before a fix can happen.

    This is a recurring issue in the world today... rampant propaganda has made facts elective to discussion or consideration.
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic345672_2.gif

    We're gonna sit down and have ourselves a drink! And after we're done - after *I'm* done, you can run upstairs and take whichever one of them little pills makes you feel the best~Dolores Claiborne

  41. #141
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Yeah! Let's buy everyone in Africa iPads and microwaves.

    They will end up being used as for any purpose other than what they were intended.

    For example there is currently a problem with the malaria nets given to people in Africa -- they are being used to catch fish rather than to protect women and children from misquotes.
    No, let's not buy them iPads and microwaves. Let's sell them iPads and microwaves. Was I that unclear?

    Protecting women and children from misquotes? Yes; accurate reporting is essential, but I'm not sure how malaria nets can stop Fox News.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  42. #142
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    No, let's not buy them iPads and microwaves. Let's sell them iPads and microwaves. Was I that unclear?

    Protecting women and children from misquotes? Yes; accurate reporting is essential, but I'm not sure how malaria nets can stop Fox News.

    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Poor Jack.

    A Spelchek net would have caught that.

  43. #143

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    ^^^

    I do need to find out where to turn auto-correct off.

  44. #144
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    I'm "1/4 breed" even amongst the Native Americans, and a Democrat in a Red State, and I'm still no better off.

    I'm being ironical, get it?
    I'll go along with this.Except I'm closer to 1/2.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  45. #145

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by BostonPirate View Post
    For perspective.....



    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may...-shah-20100502

    Now someone has to ask... did anyone ask them if the mosquito nets were something functional in their environment, or did america just decide to throw money at a problem, thinking that it would work?

    Problems require an understanding before a fix can happen.

    This is a recurring issue in the world today... rampant propaganda has made facts elective to discussion or consideration.
    They are doing a much better job of instructing how to use the nets today. I'm involved with it.

    It is amazing that such a large number of people within Africa who still believe that malaria is caused by evil spirits. Education is just as important or more important as providing the actual nettings.

    Great strides are being made to stop malaria in Africa today -- it's a combined effort.

  46. #146
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    My grandfather was a full blooded Cherokee. That does not change that early americans considered them to be savages and killed them as you would an enemy. I still maintain that it is not population control when you engage in killing what at the time is deemed an enemy.
    My family wouldn't admit to being part Indian. They were "savages" after all. I didn't know about my Dad being 1/2 until his death in 1988.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  47. #147
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    LOL well my savage relatives and I are quite proud at every moment to embrace our American Indian history
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  48. #148
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    LOL well my savage relatives and I are quite proud at every moment to embrace our American Indian history
    Same here.

  49. #149
    Ijubbinatti BostonPirate's Avatar
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    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Interesting.

    It had always been verbally passed down in the family that we were part mohican. When my sister did her Lineage Report for the DAR, it wasn't there.

    I think people WANT to be part of the land and when they are, even a bit, it is important to them.
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic345672_2.gif

    We're gonna sit down and have ourselves a drink! And after we're done - after *I'm* done, you can run upstairs and take whichever one of them little pills makes you feel the best~Dolores Claiborne

  50. #150

    Re: Uncomfortable post-Sandy question

    Total thread hijack.

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