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  1. #1
    MikeyLove
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    An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective


  2. #2
    Coward92
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    A pointless argument.

  3. #3

    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    We are all here to live, not to endlessly question what happens when we die. Get busy living

  4. #4
    MikeyLove
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    A pointless argument.
    Please explain how it is pointless?

  5. #5
    MikeyLove
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHotMess View Post
    We are all here to live, not to endlessly question what happens when we die. Get busy living
    St. Teresa of Avila will disagree with you on the endless questioning.

  6. #6

    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    St. Teresa of Avila will disagree with you on the endless questioning.
    Unfortunately, she has been dead since 1582.

  7. #7
    MikeyLove
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by HoodedRat View Post
    Unfortunately, she has been dead since 1582.
    She's alive in her Collective works in 3 volumes.

  8. #8

    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    ^
    I've actually read some of her writings, ''The Life of St Teresa of Avila by Herself'', Penguin Classics version, for instance.

    Very interesting ... but the poor woman clearly suffered from some terrible mental health issues.

  9. #9
    MikeyLove
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by HoodedRat View Post
    ^
    I've actually read some of her writings, ''The Life of St Teresa of Avila by Herself'', Penguin Classics version, for instance.

    Very interesting ... but the poor woman clearly suffered from some terrible mental health issues.
    You and your Mental Health issues....you're totally impossible.

  10. #10
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Ahh! Teresa could levitate!


    But she's not the only one!




    Anyway:
    What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief.

    Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).
    Does no one read these things before they hit "publish?"

    "The question may never be finally settled. But if it is, and the answer isn't what we like, too bad. Reality doesn't matter, because we have already infallibly defined it."
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Thank you MikeyLove. I enjoyed reading the article.

  12. #12
    Coward92
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Please explain how it is pointless?
    I believe it doesn't matter what the truth is in this matter. God is omnipotent and could've solved existence in any way he would've pleased. Arguing over evolution is pointless. It is a fact that it exists. Probably God's design as well as anything else. Why do people tear each other apart over this I will never understand.

  13. #13
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    This is well stated:

    The argument for a topical ordering notes that at the time the world was created, it had two problems—it was "formless and empty" (1:2). In the first three days of creation, God solves the formlessness problem by structuring different.aspects of the environment.

    On day one he separates day from night; on day two he separates the waters below (oceans) from the waters above (clouds), with the sky in between; and on day three he separates the waters below from each other, creating dry land. Thus the world has been given form.

    But it is still empty, so on the second three days God solves the world’s emptiness problem by giving occupants to each of the three realms he ordered on the previous three days. Thus, having solved the problems of formlessness and emptiness, the task he set for himself, God’s work is complete and he rests on the seventh day.
    It's a good description of the way a royal chronicle was often structured.


    BTW, the author is being very liberal in his claims about what has been infallibly defined.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #14
    MikeyLove
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    The setting in motion is part of God's creative actions in the Universe.

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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    The setting in motion is part of God's creative actions in the Universe.
    Cute little facebook article. Here's a fun little experiment - every time it is said in the article "and we call it god", replace "god" with any other entity you wish - Zeus, Thor, bigfoot, santa, unicorn, pixie, etc, and the arguments he makes holds just as much weight. Even ignoring all the incorrect assertions about the nature of physics; if we are, for the sake of argument, to grant him as true every argument he makes, there is no connection that can be drawn from anything said in that article that would justify identifying the argued for "cause" as the judeo-christian god.

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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    The setting in motion is part of God's creative actions in the Universe.
    Good old Aquinas.

    He wasn't as smart as Rome wants us all to think.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #17
    MikeyLove
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    Cute little facebook article. Here's a fun little experiment - every time it is said in the article "and we call it god", replace "god" with any other entity you wish - Zeus, Thor, bigfoot, santa, unicorn, pixie, etc, and the arguments he makes holds just as much weight. Even ignoring all the incorrect assertions about the nature of physics; if we are, for the sake of argument, to grant him as true every argument he makes, there is no connection that can be drawn from anything said in that article that would justify identifying the argued for "cause" as the judeo-christian god.
    That is an experiment I will not do....Thanks for the suggestion.

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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    That is an experiment I will not do....Thanks for the suggestion.
    So instead you will ignore the extensive flaws in the argument rendering what is said all but irrelevant simply because you like the conclusion?

  19. #19
    MikeyLove
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    So instead you will ignore the extensive flaws in the argument rendering what is said all but irrelevant simply because you like the conclusion?
    What flaws are you talking about? I saw no flaws in what was written on facebook.

  20. #20
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    What flaws are you talking about? I saw no flaws in what was written on facebook.
    As I said before, discounting all the errors in physics and about the nature of reality, if we grant him every preposition as true, the ultimate conclusion is still unjustified.

    Quoting the first paragraph:

    The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
    How does anything that was just said lead us to the conclusion that the identity of this "first mover" is "god"? I can even probably guess which god he is referring to, which is another unsupported conclusion. Where, in any of that babble, does anything about the characteristics of the "first-mover" come forth. Inter-dimensional aliens are just as likely, and he would be as justified to attribute this "first move" to them as he would to attribute it to "god".

    Not to mention the entire thing is one big fallacious argument of special pleading.

  21. #21

    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    From the second link ... ''blah blah blah .... and this everyone understands to be God.''

    No ... most certainly not ... and even those who do cannot agree on which 'God'.

  22. #22
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    What flaws are you talking about? I saw no flaws in what was written on facebook.
    The flaw lies in what was not written on Facebook: you can substitute the name of any supposed divinity chosen at random from Zeus to Shiva to Jehovah to Ra, and draw the same conclusion.

    That kind of opens up the conclusion to question, don't you think?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  23. #23
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    How does anything that was just said lead us to the conclusion that the identity of this "first mover" is "god"? I can even probably guess which god he is referring to, which is another unsupported conclusion. Where, in any of that babble, does anything about the characteristics of the "first-mover" come forth. Inter-dimensional aliens are just as likely, and he would be as justified to attribute this "first move" to them as he would to attribute it to "god".
    That's what happens when you try to impose Aristotelian scholasticism on revelation. Aristotle, in contrast to Aquinas, would have stopped before the attribution of personal deity to the unmoved mover.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; December 2nd, 2012 at 08:18 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  24. #24
    MikeyLove
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The flaw lies in what was not written on Facebook: you can substitute the name of any supposed divinity chosen at random from Zeus to Shiva to Jehovah to Ra, and draw the same conclusion.

    That kind of opens up the conclusion to question, don't you think?
    No, I don't think so, as I do not believe in those supposed divinities, as I only believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

  25. #25

    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    No, I don't think so, as I do not believe in those supposed divinities, as I only believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    If you are an atheist where the Gods of other religions are concerned then, presumably, it is very easy for you to understand why so many people are atheists as regards your own particular God(s).

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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    No, I don't think so, as I do not believe in those supposed divinities, as I only believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    The write-up on Facebook claims to explain something. Not to announce it, but to explain it. That means the explanation has to make sense as an explanation.

    Just to keep it fair, I'll try to use an example we both agree is probably not real.

    Let's say I meet someone who says "All rainbows have a leprechaun at the end with a pot of gold." And I say "How's that then?" So he explains to me that "since light travels in a straight line, which is certain and evident to our senses, that it is obvious that a leprechaun must be there holding down each end of the rainbow and bending it into an arc. There must be some first bender there holding down his end, and this everyone understands to be a leprechaun."

    Well, that certainly has my attention. First of all I'm not sure that's how rainbows work, or that they're "meant to be straight" in the first place unless you have a bender on each end. But I like the sound of it for some reason I can't quite finger, so that's good enough for the moment. "But how do you know it's not a unicorn holding it down with his hoof?" I ask.

    "Well," says the wise man, "I don't believe in unicorns."

    That decides it. His way of making an explanation is not an explanation at all. It is just an announcement. "Leprechauns hold down the end of the rainbow." Why? "Because rainbows are held down by something called leprechauns." Why? "Because leprechauns hold down the end of the rainbow." Why? "Because rainbows are held down by something called leprechauns."

    There isn't any explanation there unless you've already decided to pretend to know. If I meet someone else who pretends to know it's a unicorn, there would be no way to argue. If I met another person who pretends to know that rainbows are held down by the Greek god Atlas, who was strong enough to lift the world and bend the rainbow, there would be no way to argue.

    So it isn't an explanation, just an announcement. It would be the same as announcing it was Zeus, or Thor, or Shiva, or Santa, or…. And as we both agree, someone just announcing something doesn't explain it or show it to be real.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    No, I don't think so, as I do not believe in those supposed divinities, as I only believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    Either you missed the point entirely, or you're feigning that you did.

  28. #28
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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The write-up on Facebook claims to explain something. Not to announce it, but to explain it. That means the explanation has to make sense as an explanation.

    Just to keep it fair, I'll try to use an example we both agree is probably not real.

    Let's say I meet someone who says "All rainbows have a leprechaun at the end with a pot of gold." And I say "How's that then?" So he explains to me that "since light travels in a straight line, which is certain and evident to our senses, that it is obvious that a leprechaun must be there holding down each end of the rainbow and bending it into an arc. There must be some first bender there holding down his end, and this everyone understands to be a leprechaun."

    Well, that certainly has my attention. First of all I'm not sure that's how rainbows work, or that they're "meant to be straight" in the first place unless you have a bender on each end. But I like the sound of it for some reason I can't quite finger, so that's good enough for the moment. "But how do you know it's not a unicorn holding it down with his hoof?" I ask.

    "Well," says the wise man, "I don't believe in unicorns."

    That decides it. His way of making an explanation is not an explanation at all. It is just an announcement. "Leprechauns hold down the end of the rainbow." Why? "Because rainbows are held down by something called leprechauns." Why? "Because leprechauns hold down the end of the rainbow." Why? "Because rainbows are held down by something called leprechauns."

    There isn't any explanation there unless you've already decided to pretend to know. If I meet someone else who pretends to know it's a unicorn, there would be no way to argue. If I met another person who pretends to know that rainbows are held down by the Greek god Atlas, who was strong enough to lift the world and bend the rainbow, there would be no way to argue.

    So it isn't an explanation, just an announcement. It would be the same as announcing it was Zeus, or Thor, or Shiva, or Santa, or…. And as we both agree, someone just announcing something doesn't explain it or show it to be real.
    I thought everyone knew that rainbows were held down by government. They consume so much money that the pots of gold attached to the ends of the rainbow are so heavy with gold they actually bend light.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I thought everyone knew that rainbows were held down by government. They consume so much money that the pots of gold attached to the ends of the rainbow are so heavy with gold they actually bend light.
    You've done it! I've seen the light! I am heading for Damascus, and demanding lower taxes.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: An Interesting Read on Creation and Evolution/Faith and Reason in a strong Catholic Perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You've done it! I've seen the light! I am heading for Damascus, and demanding lower taxes.
    Be careful -- we wouldn't really want straight rainbows....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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