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    Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    I just saw this on Maddow and felt compelled to share it. I am from the military and have argued we can stop spending such a ridiculous amount of money and in fact we can roll back some of the manning we raised for our now 12 year war effort because it is winding down and we should wind the numbers down as well.



    Displays what Romney intends to spend on the military.... it eventually vastly outpaces what we spent for the Korean war. SO since Romney can not clearly articulate a foreign policy and seems not interested in reading anything about the foreign policy that his own staff provide then what does he plan to do with a Korean war sized military?

    Who are we invading? Iran?

    To give you an idea here is another graph that goes back to the Korean War.



    Since the numbers on the two charts don't jive I will tell you that the second one accounts for all spending for the charge card wars whereas the first chart simply details the congressional outlay not what we actually spent.

    Finally here is an interesting piece by The Blaze that details the differences and gives indications of where the money might be spent....



    So are any of you under the misguided perception that we need to spend vastly more money than we did while engaged in two wars? If you think so then to what end?
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    I almost forgot.... please look back in time and tell me when we have had a balanced budget and ramped military spending that significantly? Or has it ALWAYS resulted in a deficit? WARNING TRICK QUESTION!
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Romney's proposed military expenditure increase makes no sense whatsoever, unless he is planning a significant military operation somewhere in the world.

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    The Pentagon doesn't want it -- 'nuff said.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Romney Co. have bought into the Halliburton/Bush myth that you can spend yourself rich by investing in blowing things up and then rebuilding them using the american taxpayer and foreign countries as your bank.

    Bush even tried to convince some of the leaders in South America to join his coalition because it would help boost their economy.

    We have all seen how that has worked out in Iraq.

    America needs to wean itself away from war and start to invest in ploughshares instead. It needs to invest smarter in defense.

    But the military industrial complex force is strong. There are so many politicians from so many districts that literally rely on the propagation of materiel and employment in the military that it is all but a lost cause.

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Speaking of defense and defense contractors, why is President Zero telling defense contractors not to notify their employees about impending layoffs caused by sequestration? What's the legal basis to use taxpayer monies to pay for the lawsuits on behalf of these contractors this will cause going forward?

    Or is Zero using our money to play politics again?

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/28/news...iff/index.html

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quit changing the subject and feel free to answer the topic question Jack or just avoid it if you have no answer. Why is it the party you defend and support is planning to increase defense spending above and beyond any war in the last 70 years? Where are we going to war at? Why do you think the men and women who actually send people to die at the pentagon DO NOT WANT this amount of spending?
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Quit changing the subject and feel free to answer the topic question Jack or just avoid it if you have no answer. Why is it the party you defend and support is planning to increase defense spending above and beyond any war in the last 70 years? Where are we going to war at? Why do you think the men and women who actually send people to die at the pentagon DO NOT WANT this amount of spending?
    Here here!

    Agreed.

    Substantive answers without snark would actually change minds and create a real discussion. I would LOVE to hear answers to the questions put forward above.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    As expected he has no substantial argument for the ridiculous spending offered by Mittens.

    here is the graph of comparable spending that Maddow put together that inspired this question from me.



    This graph also makes it glaringly obvious Obama does not cut military spending in any substantial way.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    So five trillion for tax cuts and two trillion for the massive military buildup. Where does all that come from without increasing revenue?
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    aagold76
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    the amount Obama wants to cut is because the war in Iraq is over and Afgan is winding down...are we supposed to keep budgeting for 2 wars we're no longer fighting? That's like selling your car and still making payments on it.

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Actually AAgold your are incorrect.

    If you look at the graph Obama keeps most of the spending for the military that was ramped up for the two wars and war on terror.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    My fear is that Mitt has been hornswoggled by Halliburton into thinking that what is best for the military industrial complex is good for America.

    This is so definitely not the case.

    The Us has a very important role to play in global defense. But the country should not have to go bankrupt to prove this.

    And the US has to avoid another calamitous commitment to blowing up countries unless it literally plans on seizing all their treasure afterward to pay for the adventure. And yes, Pentagon and Haliburton, Canada has its eye on you in case you come after our beaver (lol).

    The biggest problem in any empire has been when the military becomes an industry and an economic cesspit that keeps politicians in power and good cigars. It has been this way for about 4500 years and counting. It is not what the Founders envisioned for the United States because it resembles only the worst of ancient Rome right up to the reasons for the decline and fall of the British Empire as well.

    The way though that the vested interests play on patriotism as a means to literally empty the US treasury is stomach turning.

    And Romney's increased military spending would literally mark the final days for the Republic.

  14. #14
    aagold76
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    I was saying that Obama does intend to cut some from the budget in future (the Romney attacks)- the part that covers new war expenses...yes, he's spent the most- but it definitley needs to be cut

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    I dont know about final days. And I do agree with the level of current spending IF we intend to honor the zillions of treaties and defense agreements that have us on every spot on earth as a Navy projecting force and keeping the sea lanes open for all to use.

    I experienced the pain of the cold war drawdown where my average days at sea went from the 270 to 290s up to 330 to 340.... That is unsustainable over the long term. You break equipment and willpower to stay serving.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by aagold76 View Post
    I was saying that Obama does intend to cut some from the budget in future (the Romney attacks)- the part that covers new war expenses...yes, he's spent the most- but it definitley needs to be cut
    I understand that but if you look at the graph demonstrating a ramp of 150 billion after the begining of the two wars then Obama does not chop that at all... maybe by 10 billion.... that is not rolling back from a ramp up of two wars. if you go up by 150 and only cut 10 then you haven't drawn down after war.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I dont know about final days. And I do agree with the level of current spending IF we intend to honor the zillions of treaties and defense agreements that have us on every spot on earth as a Navy projecting force and keeping the sea lanes open for all to use.

    I experienced the pain of the cold war drawdown where my average days at sea went from the 270 to 290s up to 330 to 340.... That is unsustainable over the long term. You break equipment and willpower to stay serving.
    Rum Sodomy and the lash.

    That is a lot of days to be away from your own bed.

    The US has to push the other partners in NATO et al to put their warships where their mouths are too. Including Canuckistan.

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    So five trillion for tax cuts and two trillion for the massive military buildup. Where does all that come from without increasing revenue?
    If he runs the nation like he ran the state, he will increase all fees for any government certificate or process, add some where none were, give the rich a tax cut, run up the deficit, and not run for a second term.

    That is what his experience points to.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by BostonPirate View Post
    If he runs the nation like he ran the state, he will increase all fees for any government certificate or process, add some where none were, give the rich a tax cut, run up the deficit, and not run for a second term.

    That is what his experience points to.
    Broken record time. I don't get why Democrats talk about Romney's gubernatorial time.

    Back on topic. You learn about economic multipliers (or the velocity of money) in intro to macroeconomics and the only multiplier worse than military spending is guess what? Tax Cuts. Tax cuts are in fact a negative multiplier because it is lost income to the US government.

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Actually AAgold your are incorrect.

    If you look at the graph Obama keeps most of the spending for the military that was ramped up for the two wars and war on terror.
    Maybe aagold76 has a valid point.

    I’d like to see how the graph looks if you add in the emergency appropriations Ms. Maddow mentioned, but didn’t include in her visual illustration.

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Broken record time. I don't get why Democrats talk about Romney's gubernatorial time.

    Back on topic. You learn about economic multipliers (or the velocity of money) in intro to macroeconomics and the only multiplier worse than military spending is guess what? Tax Cuts. Tax cuts are in fact a negative multiplier because it is lost income to the US government.
    right...

    And to fix the equation they introduce the dark matter of economics... dynamic tax expansion.

    Pure bullshit.

    And as for his Gubernatorial experience? It's all we have to go on, since he refuses to give any real policy answers.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Rum Sodomy and the lash.

    That is a lot of days to be away from your own bed.

    The US has to push the other partners in NATO et al to put their warships where their mouths are too. Including Canuckistan.
    That is actually the current CNO's vision for the force. We have been working more and more joint sea ops to involve and sometimes train our allies around the globe. To let them get some skin in the game (as it were). He wants 100% of the Officers to speak a foreign language by 2025 and we will hedge our hiring and selection practices to meet that goal. Being that coordinates sea power requires accurate and effective communication.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Maybe aagold76 has a valid point.

    I’d like to see how the graph looks if you add in the emergency appropriations Ms. Maddow mentioned, but didn’t include in her visual illustration.
    I think it does include that based on the huge jump after Obama took office. Remember we walked away from one war and while we surged in Afghanistan that did not include hiring more troops just sending them into harms way. Now is AA means that Obama is coming down that 10 billion after actually adding it into the budget post-GWB credit card war then I agree. However if you look at the spending post 2000 we ramped to a war footing almost as significant as the cold war but bought much less expensive tools for war than when we outpaced the USSR.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I understand that but if you look at the graph demonstrating a ramp of 150 billion after the begining of the two wars then Obama does not chop that at all... maybe by 10 billion.... that is not rolling back from a ramp up of two wars. if you go up by 150 and only cut 10 then you haven't drawn down after war.
    Maybe he intends to spend it upgrading the Navy and the Coast Guard -- the CG could use a good fifty new vessels and the same in helicopters, and the Navy could use -- well, you know better than I.

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    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    No kuli I think the current spend plan with remain. It is simply maintaining the ability to do the jobs we have set by treaty. Obama did what Bush or Romney hasn't done. He asked the defense department what they needed and asked them to leave out what they wished for and then paid for just what they need.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Yep just as I thought Jack started one sided arguments but doesnt want to defend his Presidential choice's spending plans.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I’d like to see how the graph looks if you add in the emergency appropriations Ms. Maddow mentioned, but didn’t include in her visual illustration.




    Original article by Travis Sharp (from whom Rachel Maddow borrowed the graph):


    Mr. Sharp’s analysis is also referenced here: Romney Advisers: True Cost of Defense Buildup Remains TBD

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    That is a very interesting read. Especially the part where Romney admits his spending plan for the military would be in the out years of his plan... they even went so far as to say spending would not occur in 13 or 14. So the military voting for him based on spending wont really get a dime.

    The other issue Romney says needs addressed are the civilians working in defense. Hw wants more uniformed members and less civilians. What he doesn't understand is the country doesn't pay civilians for life, along with education and healthcare for life. They serve the nation and work for their employer similarly to the civilian workforce except it is done in conjunction with or takes into account Social security and reduces benefits accordingly. Where as the military side does not. They have to be a part of a health plan and not have Tricare for life. I could go into the zillion other benefits not paid for but the bottom line is we as a force strategically went away from using warfighters to do things civilians can do because it saves about 40% per job.

    Romney has no clue what he is saying but figures if he says he will spend money then cool. I guess many lemmings are buying what he is selling.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Broken record time. I don't get why Democrats talk about Romney's gubernatorial time.

    Back on topic. You learn about economic multipliers (or the velocity of money) in intro to macroeconomics and the only multiplier worse than military spending is guess what? Tax Cuts. Tax cuts are in fact a negative multiplier because it is lost income to the US government.
    Eisenhower had it right, but he also seemed to know something more:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=8y06NSBBRtY#!

    I'm willing to bet that few Americans, in 1961 when he made that speech, had the first real clue as to what he was talking about.

    I think that it's clear that we do now, and after the Assassination of President Kennedy in 1963, the ramp up of the Vietnam War, and every so called war since then, which seems to keep America in a "perpetual state of war," it just seems common place that it should be a part of our National Budget.

    Whether "on the books," or "off."

    But seriously, it begs the question:

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk
    So five trillion for tax cuts and two trillion for the massive military buildup. Where does all that come from without increasing revenue?
    Here's an interesting read from 2003:

    Is War a Generator of Expenses or an Economic Stimulus?

    Few if any macroeconomic scholars would have endorsed the simple notion that "war brings prosperity." But two influences led that idea to percolate into public consciousness: the prominence of Keynesian theory and the experience of wartime production.
    So how is "Mittens" approaching this? That's the question.
    Last edited by CTF; October 11th, 2012 at 05:53 PM.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Eisenhower had it right, but he also seemed to know something more:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=8y06NSBBRtY#!

    I'm willing to bet that few Americans, in 1961 when he made that speech, had the first real clue as to what he was talking about.

    I think that it's clear that we do now, and after the Assassination of President Kennedy in 1963, the ramp up of the Vietnam War, and every so called war since then, which seems to keep America in a "perpetual state of war," it just seems common place that it should be a part of our National Budget.

    Whether "on the books," or "off."
    Eisenhower warned us -- and Johnson plowed ahead, increasing the MIC with a war he swore he wouldn't get involved in. After Vietnam, people just assumed that's how big our military ought to be... ignoring Eisenhower's warning.

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    Here's an interesting read from 2003:

    Is War a Generator of Expenses or an Economic Stimulus?

    So how is "Mittens" approaching this? That's the question.
    He's not afraid of the MIC; it gives him unearned income.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    What would we call that?

    A paradigm, an American Economic Myth, or a current day fact?

    I'd call it a paradigm.

    As where the Vietnam War consumed all of the Funding for LBJ's Great Society, Defense Spending now has to compete with Domestic Spending, or vice versus.

    So that either party can prove themselves "tough on defense."

    While cutting the Domestic Spending for Veterans, Education, Environmental Protection, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, etc.

    Not to mention maintaining our Nation's Infrastructure while we be "rebuild" countries that we've destroyed abroad in the name of our own "National Defense."

    It's FUBAR to be sure.

    JayHawk knows what I'm talking about.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    I do indeed and I agree wholeheartedly the unchecked spending offered by the right is FUBAR.
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I do indeed and I agree wholeheartedly the unchecked spending offered by the right is FUBAR.
    With what's been projected from the Romney/Ryan plan, even my hypothetical $20tn asteroid capture wouldn't save us.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  33. #33
    of the 99%
    Just_Believe18's Avatar
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Thank you, JayHawk, for starting such an informative post. The data you're breaking down clearly shows the lack of need that the Pentagon has for additional spending. It's like Mitt Romney wants to write a blank check just for the sake of writing a blank check. We're winding down two wars, and the man wants to start an arms race of funding to do... what?

    This is a very rich man who is trying to play off of a Republican base of spending billions of dollars to appear "pro-military" without having the leadership or foresight to know what the hell he is actually doing.

    This isn't leadership. Mitt Romney is not presidential material.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  34. #34
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Military Spending and Mittens new shiny nickel....

    Yes. Policy drives funding. I will be the first one on this board to spend every single red cent we have as a country on the military if I felt there was a legitimate need. There is not. Obama is actually keeping the funding that WAS ramped up to cover two wars. So we are fundamentally spending more and have more capability because of it. If we shed the additional soldiers and marines that were added for a two front war then we can easily take care of and build the equipment we need for our commitments.

    Ryan tried to use the idea that our navy is one third the size it was at some reference point he said to which i forget. The difference being a single ship can control hundreds of miles with our newer capes and lims and we don't need hundreds of ships to project our strength of force.

    To keep things honest JB18 I stole the data from a Rachel Maddow broadcast and found it elsewhere as well and then Opi added as he always does. Opi if I ever run for office I want you on my research team.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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